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DataRiker
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 11:48 am
Forced Artificial ScarcityIts Sad.
Meanwhile users in South Korea enjoy cheaper, faster, and uncapped connections with less subsidization than we have here.
Japan has, for the most part followed suit, and increasingly China is as well. | |
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 |  tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:7 ·Xfinity
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tshirt
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 12:29 pm
Re: Forced Artificial Scarcitysaid by DataRiker:Its Sad.
Meanwhile users in South Korea enjoy cheaper, faster, and uncapped connections with less subsidization than we have here.
You keep saying that... are you unaware of the role that Korea Agency for Digital Opportunity & Promotion (KADO) has had on broadband development in South Korea? or Are you just ignoring the huge subsidy/ gov't goal of universal broadband and computer literacy for all citizens? High physical population density, a very socially homogeneous and highly ordered society, gov't mandates of prosperity through education, a huge technology manufacturing industry and a fairly recent overall infrastructure, have lead to a near ubiquitous broadband availablity which allowed a highly competitive industry, not the other way around. | |
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DataRiker
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 12:34 pm
Re: Forced Artificial ScarcityCitation needed please.
Not aware of any infrastructure build out by the Korean Agency for Digital Opportunity & Promotion (KADO) at least when I lived there.
They were mostly an educational gov. entity that provided training and low cost / free computers to rural areas.
Furthermore the program wasn't that "huge" to begin with. | |
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Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:7 ·Xfinity
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tshirt
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 1:05 pm
Re: Forced Artificial ScarcityWe know that the USF hasn't applied much to broadband, few tax breaks are specifically tied to broadband expansion, and the exclusivity agreements like the Bell System was largely in place to assure a reliable MILITARY commnication system, franchises on cable were put in place by local gov'ts to extract payments and services from the providers that the then in power politicians thought to be important (or were beneficial to those politicians themselves) Had we had the same percapitia subsidy and POLICY and have had to rebuild our entire infrastructure over the last 50 years we would probably be further along the road to a mature broadband industry as seen in S korea.
One huge advantage towards that infrastructure buildout which we can't match* is the incredible HIGH density development seen mostly in east Asia (KOREA's, japan, hongkong, parts of china)
Less than the direct financial assistance (the consumer/consumer/taxpayer will end up paying the bill anyway) is a unified longterm POLICY towards better universal broadband availablity is the MOST vital next step for the US. | |
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Re: Forced Artificial ScarcityI was more concerned with the Inaccuracy of your post that strongly implied KADO used GOV money to build out Infrastructure.
I also like your minimization of the USF. Might want to rethink that position. | |
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Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:7 ·Xfinity
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tshirt
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 4:15 pm
Re: Forced Artificial Scarcitysaid by DataRiker:I also like your minimization of the USF. The USF uses the word telecommunications to mean TELEPHONE service to homes, the only section that deals internet is the schools and libraries segment. I didn't mean to imply that KADO built /wired internet it was one of a number of programs which trained citizens for computer skills and provided computer, which created a demand for the infrustructure other PARTIALLY directly subsidized inline with the gov't program to make available too ALL. (sorry I did not provide the best link to explain their programs/gov't mandates) As I said the MOST important part is the POLICY end to mandate an achivable goal, buildout plan, and financially realistic subidies as needed and then insist it be implimented. Unfortunately the US has not even reach concensus on the policy, and the gov't still doesn't have a realistic view/census of what exists in reality, and what exists only on paper. We have a very long way to go. | |
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tshirt
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 1:12 pm
google can provide more links than I but this seems a little clearer than some » www.kaeim.or.kr/IJEMT1(1 ··· 5-47.pdfBTW it mentions they are part of the Ministry of Information Communication which is part of their defense dept with a dash of economic devlopment thrown in, which oddly means WE probably helped pay for it. | |
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Re: Forced Artificial Scarcitysaid by tshirt:google can provide more links than I
but this seems a little clearer than some
»www.kaeim.or.kr/IJEMT1(1 ··· 5-47.pdf
BTW it mentions they are part of the Ministry of Information Communication which is part of their defense dept with a dash of economic devlopment thrown in, which oddly means WE probably helped pay for it.
Yes, you incorrectly implied this agency subsidized South Korea's broadband infrastructure. This is an e-learning study. Very typical of this agency. Your reference to KADO was incorrect. I've lived in Korea, I called you out on it. Not a big deal can we move on? | |
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| |  N10Cities
Premium Member
join:2002-05-07
Lavaca, AR
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to tshirt
said by tshirt:said by DataRiker: gov't mandates of prosperity through education, a huge technology manufacturing industry and a fairly recent overall infrastructure, have lead to a near ubiquitous broadband availablity which allowed a highly competitive industry, not the other way around.
Shame our corporations and government doesn't think that way....we might have nice things like South Korea....but most corporations are more worried about short term stock prices than long term benefits for the country.... | |
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| | |  chamberc
Premium Member
join:2008-08-05
Irving, TX |
chamberc
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 2:59 pm
Re: Forced Artificial Scarcitysaid by N10Cities:said by tshirt:said by DataRiker: gov't mandates of prosperity through education, a huge technology manufacturing industry and a fairly recent overall infrastructure, have lead to a near ubiquitous broadband availablity which allowed a highly competitive industry, not the other way around.
Shame our corporations and government doesn't think that way....we might have nice things like South Korea....but most corporations are more worried about short term stock prices than long term benefits for the country.... You do realize the goal of a business is to increase shareholder value, right? There is no reason to be ashamed of this. It's fullly what I expect of companies I own stock in. | |
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Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:7 ·Xfinity
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to N10Cities
said by N10Cities:said by tshirt:said by DataRiker: gov't mandates of prosperity through education, a huge technology manufacturing industry and a fairly recent overall infrastructure, have lead to a near ubiquitous broadband availablity which allowed a highly competitive industry, not the other way around.
Shame our corporations and government doesn't think that way....we might have nice things like South Korea....but most corporations are more worried about short term stock prices than long term benefits for the country.... so two problems, corp. short term thinking/rewards system. and gov't failing to take responsability/use it's power(also some very short term/election cycle driven thinking.) | |
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to tshirt
blah blah blah
My response, we are Americans
We shud have the best cause we pwn. | |
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Re: Forced Artificial ScarcityThe only thing America "pwns" at is greed and right now America is pwning hard. | |
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| chamberc
Premium Member
join:2008-08-05
Irving, TX |
to DataRiker
said by DataRiker:Its Sad.
Meanwhile users in South Korea enjoy cheaper, faster, and uncapped connections with less subsidization than we have here.
Japan has, for the most part followed suit, and increasingly China is as well.
You realize that size of network geographically speaking, is a huge factor in cost? I can run pure fiber in my house if I watned to, but doing so for the entire state of Texas gets a little expensive. Private companies in the US cover vast areas of geography and must be allowed to charge appropriately for this capital cost. I promise you they'd love to ONLY service tiny areas like South Korea. | |
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| |  sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Silver Spring, MD
kudos:10 ·blauworld
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Polycom VVX500
Greenwave FiOS-G1100
(Software) Sophos UTM Home Edition
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sk1939
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 10:13 pm
Re: Forced Artificial ScarcityRunning telecom in a country the size on China can't be cheap either, but they are doing it. Service providers service large areas because they choose to, and most of them are no where near reinvesting any significant percent of their profits back into infrastructure improvment. Many of AT&T's DSL customers are still using lines that were put in from the 40's to the mid 70's for the suburbs, some in the city are still using lines put in pre-Great Depression, and no, I'm not joking either. Companies all over the world have been making improvements to their infrastructure as technology increases, but it's stagnated in the US. The backbone capability has exponentially grown in the past decade, yet end user connectivity is still roughly the same. What is wrong with this picture? Some of the states themselves are getting sick of it, especially with tight budgets. Maryland for example, is building a statewide fiber based broadband network at a cost of $115 Million. "Once it is completed, the fiber-optic network will link more than 1,000 schools, libraries, public safety agencies and other facilities, spanning 4,200 square miles across Maryland, and linking the Wallops Island (Va.) NASA facility on the Delmarva Peninsula to the far reaches of Garrett County in Western Maryland. The alliance includes 715 of the to-be-connected institutions." "The network will also connect to existing networks with thousands more anchor institutions. Also, the ICBN will make available nearly 800 miles of fiber optic cable for low-cost lease by commercial entities to expand the reach and quality of broadband access throughout the region." Read more here: » doit.maryland.gov/ombn/s ··· ers.aspx | |
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to chamberc
said by chamberc:said by DataRiker:Its Sad.
Meanwhile users in South Korea enjoy cheaper, faster, and uncapped connections with less subsidization than we have here.
Japan has, for the most part followed suit, and increasingly China is as well.
You realize that size of network geographically speaking, is a huge factor in cost? I can run pure fiber in my house if I watned to, but doing so for the entire state of Texas gets a little expensive. Private companies in the US cover vast areas of geography and must be allowed to charge appropriately for this capital cost. I promise you they'd love to ONLY service tiny areas like South Korea. This argument doesn't hold water. If it did, then New York would have internet like South Korea. But we don't. | |
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to DataRiker
This is only going encourage ATT and Comcast other to lower their bandwidth caps even more. | |
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to DataRiker
It seems that our connectivity is to closely related to the big business that must make big profits........ I live 15 miles from a major city center and my only alternative is hughesnet. Let's talk about caps... | |
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Good for consumers...Anything that helps out people with their broadband limitations is a plus in my book! Now, if they ever came out with a way to use Netflix on Linux.......  | |
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DataRiker
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 11:56 am
Re: Good for consumers...said by cooperaaaron:Anything that helps out people with their broadband limitations is a plus in my book! Now, if they ever came out with a way to use Netflix on Linux.......
Agreed. But this represents a defeat of sorts. Absolutely no technical reason why users should face this limitation at all. Caps are a desperate attempt at controlling Video distribution through Forced Artificial Scarcity. | |
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Re: Good for consumers...said by DataRiker:said by cooperaaaron:Anything that helps out people with their broadband limitations is a plus in my book! Now, if they ever came out with a way to use Netflix on Linux.......
Agreed. But this represents a defeat of sorts. Absolutely no technical reason why users should face this limitation at all. i agree but nothing we do is going to change it. caps are here to stay unfortunate. same thing with gas prices. there's no reason why gas is so expensive either. as a result this forced car manufacturers to focus on creating cars with more fuel efficiency. there is no reason why video streaming sites and app developers can't do more to limit bandwidth that they use. it sucks i know, but it's just reality and something that we are just going to have to get used to. | |
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join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA ·Time Warner Cable
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elray
Member
2011-Jun-22 3:15 pm
Re: Good for consumers...said by chances14:i agree but nothing we do is going to change it. caps are here to stay unfortunate. same thing with gas prices. there's no reason why gas is so expensive either. as a result this forced car manufacturers to focus on creating cars with more fuel efficiency. there is no reason why video streaming sites and app developers can't do more to limit bandwidth that they use. it sucks i know, but it's just reality and something that we are just going to have to get used to.
Huh? Please elaborate. How exactly is "there no reason why gas is so expensive" ? Last I checked, crude is about $95/barrel, yielding 15-20 gallons of gas, before refining costs, taxes, profit and distribution costs. Seems like reason enough for me. | |
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Re: Good for consumers...said by elray:said by chances14:i agree but nothing we do is going to change it. caps are here to stay unfortunate. same thing with gas prices. there's no reason why gas is so expensive either. as a result this forced car manufacturers to focus on creating cars with more fuel efficiency. there is no reason why video streaming sites and app developers can't do more to limit bandwidth that they use. it sucks i know, but it's just reality and something that we are just going to have to get used to.
Huh? Please elaborate. How exactly is "there no reason why gas is so expensive" ? Last I checked, crude is about $95/barrel, yielding 15-20 gallons of gas, before refining costs, taxes, profit and distribution costs. Seems like reason enough for me. it's all a scam, just like this capped bandwidth bs. seems like the media influences gas prices more than anything | |
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join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA ·Time Warner Cable
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elray
Member
2011-Jun-22 7:02 pm
Re: Good for consumers...said by chances14:it's all a scam, just like this capped bandwidth bs. seems like the media influences gas prices more than anything
While we may not like current gasoline prices, they result from supply and demand mixed with a little bit of speculation, a little help from your Blue-State government making gasoline blends non-fungible, and the significant retail taxes applied. There is no measurable media influence. | |
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|  FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5 |
to cooperaaaron
said by cooperaaaron:Anything that helps out people with their broadband limitations is a plus in my book!
+1 I tried a SD TV show I like from the 80's and the difference in quality on a 32" HDTV between "GOOD" and "BEST" was barely noticeable. So why eat up bandwidth when not needed? | |
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| |  r81984Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
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r81984
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 1:59 pm
Re: Good for consumers...said by FFH5:said by cooperaaaron:Anything that helps out people with their broadband limitations is a plus in my book!
+1 I tried a SD TV show I like from the 80's and the difference in quality on a 32" HDTV between "GOOD" and "BEST" was barely noticeable. So why eat up bandwidth when not needed? Bandwidth is so cheap it is a waste of time to care about what bit rate you are using. After paying to run the lines to your house and for the equipment, maxing out your connection or using bandwidth is negligible to the cost. | |
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| | Arty50
Premium Member
join:2003-10-04 |
to FFH5
said by FFH5:I tried a SD TV show I like from the 80's and the difference in quality on a 32" HDTV between "GOOD" and "BEST" was barely noticeable. So why eat up bandwidth when not needed?
Why don't you try that same test with an HD video? Of course changing the quality setting when the source material is already low quality isn't going to make a difference. | |
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| | | FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5 |
FFH5
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 6:22 pm
Re: Good for consumers...said by Arty50:said by FFH5:I tried a SD TV show I like from the 80's and the difference in quality on a 32" HDTV between "GOOD" and "BEST" was barely noticeable. So why eat up bandwidth when not needed?
Why don't you try that same test with an HD video? Of course changing the quality setting when the source material is already low quality isn't going to make a difference. It took about 10 secs to chg the video quality option. If watching a HD streaming movie I would switch to "BEST" before viewing. But since the vast majority of what I watch on Netflix STREAMING is SD, the "GOOD" setting is the best default. For recent Netflix movies the DVDs are delivered by mail anyway. | |
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to cooperaaaron
i just wish that netflix would die.becuae of them i will be losing my job so i have a hate going for this company | |
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| | FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5 |
FFH5
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 4:52 pm
Re: Good for consumers...said by gorehound:i just wish that netflix would die.becuae of them i will be losing my job so i have a hate going for this company
And how is Netflix taking your job? | |
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to gorehound
Are you the person who works at the small video rental store? You're gonna have let it go , man. People have the right to pick and they've made their choice. Compared to Netflix, your store is overpriced and understocked. It was inevitable that something would come along and make it obsolete. The same thing happened to arcades. People want more for their money and have every right to do so.
If Netflix went out of business, there would be far more left without jobs than at your store. You have a very selfish attitude about this | |
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Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5 |
FFH5
Premium Member
2011-Jun-23 7:18 am
Re: Good for consumers...said by MonkeyLick78:Are you the person who works at the small video rental store? You're gonna have let it go , man.
Found it: » Down With Netflix | |
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What about the slow speeds?If Netflix expects their service to really take off and not be available to only the rich in upscale parts of town with high speed internet they are going to have to do something so the rest of us can get it too. All I can get here is Qwest DSL at 1.5Mb but it slows down to just a fraction of that when I try to play any sort of video. Netflix will play for one minute then it has to buffer for 5 minutes in order to start playing again, if it does ever start. | |
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 IPPlanManHoly Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1 |
Artificial scarcity indeed...I can't stand these almost daily press releases insisting that we're getting value and choice for our usage level. Suddenly the mantra is about paying the same for less, or in some cases, more for less. I have had it with feel good press releases meant to insert feel-good buzz words in my head. Sorry Verizon, but taking a 30 dollar unlimited data plan and capping it at 2 GB for the same price isn't value or tailored to anyone's usage. You have to be on crack over there. Verizon's costs are falling, they just got a lot of iPhone customers... Now you have AT&T capping DSL without any proof of congestion, just like Comcast caps its service. What's the deal?
I am on an unlimited data plan with my iPhone 4 on AT&T and I remain unfazed in my mission to use as much data through Netflix and HBOgo as possible. So help me AT&T, I will make you pay for this BS.
Welcome to the new Internet. Tiered, capped, monetized to rubble. Isn't it grand? A brave new world... | |
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 andyross
MVM
join:2003-05-04
Schaumburg, IL |
This messed up many Sony devicesIt looks like they enabled the settings in their software about a week before it showed up on the web site. That caused many Sony devices, mainly TV's and BluRay players, to default to the lowest resolution. When you first go into the web site settings, NOTHING is checked. Once I checked the BEST setting, my TV and BluRay (both Sony) went back to normal. Many others posted the same on various forums. | |
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Check your Netflix settings, Folks.I don't know what the default setting is, but I noticed heavy pixalization yesterday when watching an older TV series on Netflix on my computer. Worse than anything I had ever seen from them before. After reading about the new setting options I went in and chose "best" and the picture quality improved to what I had been used to. | |
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|  lordfly
join:2000-10-12
Homestead, FL |
lordfly
Member
2011-Jun-22 12:53 pm
Re: Check your Netflix settings, Folks.Done. I have a 10 meg unlimited network connection. I am so glad I am on a local WISP provider. | |
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BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
EARTH |
BiggA
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 12:42 pm
Very few...... areas are completely affected by data caps. While AT&T's are attrocious, Comcast's are only on consumer level packages, the business lines are unlimited. | |
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They're not helping them.Netflix is hurting capped broadband users in the long run. Instead of capitulating, Netflix should be upping its streams to 50+ Mbps.
This is the best way to kill caps. A significant portion of American Internet subscribers now have Netflix. Can you imagine what would happen if every Comcap subscriber got streams sent to them that maxed their connection speed? Half of Comcap's subscribers would be calling them up and throwing a fit. They would be forced to back off the concept of capping because of the backlash. | |
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SweetSometimes I am doing other things on my internet that are eating up my bandwidth but I just want to watch nonHD netflix. Instead it keeps stopping and trying to continue doing it in HD. I might lower the stream for these times. | |
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sadIt is indeed sad that as Americans, the prices we are charged in reflection to the services we receive from these multi-billion dollar companies we need to choose between the less and worthless when it comes to our internet access meanwhile being charged out of the yenyang for the privilege.
As long as the Lobbyists and Politicians are allowed to make these decisions for us, we can expect no better in the future I'm afraid. | |
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CapsBlow
Anon
2011-Jun-22 1:29 pm
It's a shame....You can leave your Cable TV set running 24/7 without incurring extra fees or limitations, but you can't have your promised Internet speed do the same at the same cost or in some cases double or triple the cost of Cable TV. When you break it all down, it's all still just data regardless of whether its analog or digital.
Caps are downright criminal. It's sad when corporations have the obligation to investors that if we have a record breaking year than in order to sustain profitability you must constantly exceed the year before. One of the reasons I care little when people get screwed by gambling in the Wall Street casino. Somebodies got to lose and with ISP's we are all getting shafted. | |
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 88615298
Premium Member
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness |
88615298
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 2:41 pm
Doesn't really helpNot netflix's fault of course, but really what is the point of watching 625 Kbps stream? It sucks even on a computer monitor. Worse than watching an old VHS tape that's been used 100 times over. Might as well not watch at all. | |
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neftv
join:2000-10-01
Broomall, PA |
neftv
Member
2011-Jun-22 2:46 pm
the end...I guess when Netflix is giving these options for bandwidth it will be the beginning of the end as well. Quality will suffer so people not going to be happy and so forth. As usual the greedy big companies get their way again in corp. America. | |
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Madtown
Premium Member
join:2008-04-26
Madera, CA |
Madtown
Premium Member
2011-Jun-22 6:51 pm
Xbox LiveI changed my settings on the website, does this have any affect on Xbox Live? | |
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Were be behind.Ones everything get cap phone and home cable the usa market will go down. The fcc and the usa government will bring the online market were no company can do business online if people are afraid to get charge for going over there cap. | |
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bigbird858
Anon
2011-Jun-23 9:22 am
IPv6Isn't IPv6 suppose to relieve stress on current network backbones in the US? The new developement of IPv6 should bring better connectivity and speed from what i'm hearing but has anyone seen actual side by side comparisons?  | |
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Well according to some here, anyone watchingNetflix/Hulu or any video in general is an abuser so HOW DARE THEY!
Video streaming is being put into most of our daily lives with ESPN going for it, Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, HBO, etc.....and the large caps will soon be quite small
And those who think the ISP's will raise their caps? Yea, good luck with that | |
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 SnakeoilIgnore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:2 |
Snakeoil
Premium Member
2011-Jun-23 9:45 am
And the government turns a blind eye, with wallets open.Meanwhile, those we elect to office turn a blind eye to this, as they open their wallets to receive donations to run for re-election, from these companies.
A shame there can't be a law that prevents companies, special interest groups from donating money to elections. Maybe if there was, we wouldn't have to worry about the seats in the government being for sale.
Two prime example are the Comcast/NBC deal, and now the looming AT&T/T-mo deal. Just goes to show you, give a few billion to those sitting in office, and you can write the laws you want, and do the deals you want. | |
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Can't Compare Canada to South Korea or JapanYou can't compare Canadian internet to South Korea or Japan, which are both high population density countries with very short distances to cover.
A better comparison of internet services would be Australia, which has large distances to cover and a much more widely dispersed population, similar to Canada.
Check out what's happening to ISPs and internet users in Australia, and you'll realize how much better off we are in Canada. | |
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NoLuckChuck
Anon
2011-Jun-25 11:22 pm
Re: Can't Compare Canada to South Korea or JapanLucky you, you live out in the western part of Canada. If you lived in the part that includes Ontario you'd realize that Canadian internet is worst than almost every third world country. | |
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NoLuckChuck
Anon
2011-Jun-23 7:49 pm
This would make a lot more senseNetflix should make these subscribers aware that they can just transfer to another isp that isn't capped or capped with overuse fees. It's bad enough what has happened to America without AT&T forcing people into declaring personal bankruptcy with their overuse fees. Like i said Netflix should make each and every subscriber well aware of this. | |
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