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San Francisco Residents Still Fighting AT&T U-Verse Cabinets
AT&T Promises to Beautify, Reduce VRAD Cabinet Total

Over the years a significant number of communities have gotten upset about the AT&T VRAD cabinets required to deliver the company's U-Verse FTTN/VDSL service. In some areas, complaints involved anger of AT&T ignoring easement rights or childhood traffic dangers, while in other markets the complaints have been aesthetic or property-value driven. In Illinois, groups like Stop The Box fought to have a say in VRAD placement, with AT&T finally going so far as to agree to pay $1,500-$2000 for landscaping surrounding each box in some markets.

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In San Francisco, community opposition to installing 725 six-foot-tall utility cabinets was so heated, AT&T ultimately backed off of a significant expansion. AT&T recently decided to try again, and has been engaged in a new round of negotiations with the city. Unlike last time -- AT&T decided to engage local community members before launching their efforts. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, opponents have been pushing for an environmental impact study that could delay the expansion. AT&T's promising locals they'll "green" many of the boxes, and try to reduce their number:
quote:
AT&T's Kasselman did not have specific details of the proposal, but it could involve reducing the number of boxes. "We don't know the numbers yet," he said. Undergrounding is probably not feasible, given the amount of space required, he said, but, "where private property is available, we'll use it." In terms of aesthetics, he said, "we'll look to green them, plant trees and shrubbery around them and stealth them." (i.e, fence them off, or otherwise hide them, where possible.) Some of the existing boxes have already been "greened."
According to AT&T, about 1 million homes are currently able to get U-verse in the nine-county Bay Area.
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amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

amungus

Premium Member

is it worth it?

I mean, how can these possibly be less economical for either company or customer than say, oh, I don't know, something like fiber?

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a regular phone line having power for -DAYS- when a big storm comes through, but come on. For all these must cost, they could leave copper infrastructure in place AND provide fiber right?
bgraham2
join:2001-03-15
Smithtown, NY

bgraham2

Member

Re: is it worth it?

What's in these things that has to be so large? You could build half a main frame computer in the boxes in the picture.

FIOS in my neighborhood is very unobtrusive.
flashcore
join:2007-01-23
united state

flashcore

Member

Re: is it worth it?

said by bgraham2:

What's in these things that has to be so large? You could build half a main frame computer in the boxes in the picture.

FIOS in my neighborhood is very unobtrusive.

There are lots of batteries to keep the things running in a power outage. Its not like FiOS which has no power needs between the central office and the customers house, only boxes to split the fiber.

fonzbear2000
Premium Member
join:2005-08-09
Saint Paul, MN

fonzbear2000

Premium Member

Instead of complaining...

They should just be glad that they're finally getting broadband service in their area.

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList

Premium Member

Re: Instead of complaining...

san fran has great broadband coverage. well except for AT&T. AT&T could probably get away with putting in fiber but the vrads don't stand a chance.
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned) to fonzbear2000

Member

to fonzbear2000
San Francisco doesn't need AT&Trash and with their new bandwidth caps U-verse barely qualifies as a broadband service.

The Bay Area has plenty of other broadband options that are far better than AT&Trash.

runzero
join:2005-09-16
DC

runzero to fonzbear2000

Member

to fonzbear2000
You're calling that second-rate U-verse crap "broadband"?

Duramax08
To The Moon
Premium Member
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

Duramax08

Premium Member

F*$# it

take them away and put them somewhere else where they can use them. If they are gona bitch about it over and over again, pull em out.
sparc
join:2006-05-06

sparc

Member

Re: F*$# it

agreed... there's plenty of other AT&T areas that would be happy to take the oversized boxes

ditch san fran and go for something easier!

PapaMidnight
join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD

PapaMidnight

Member

Burial

Is there some technical difficulty or impracticality that prevents them from simply being buried?
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada
MikroTik RB450G
Cisco DPC3008
Cisco SPA112

TheMG

Premium Member

Re: Burial

said by PapaMidnight:

Is there some technical difficulty or impracticality that prevents them from simply being buried?

Water.

Heat.

Accessibility.

How do you keep water from entering a below-ground cabinet, without an expensive drainage setup? How do you keep this cabinet cooled? How is a technician going to have access to the equipment?

It's not impossible, but the cost would be HUGE.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

1 recommendation

r81984 to PapaMidnight

Premium Member

to PapaMidnight
said by PapaMidnight:

Is there some technical difficulty or impracticality that prevents them from simply being buried?

Nope they just need to run fiber all the way to the house and then you don't need a VRAD.

Duramax08
To The Moon
Premium Member
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

Duramax08

Premium Member

Re: Burial

said by r81984:

said by PapaMidnight:

Is there some technical difficulty or impracticality that prevents them from simply being buried?

Nope they just need to run fiber all the way to the house and then you don't need a VRAD.

HAHAHA, AT&T doing that! Nice one

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList

Premium Member

question

can someone tell me why they don't put them under ground?
cambit69
join:2003-09-22
El Cerrito, CA

cambit69

Member

waste of space

takes 700 of these littered across the city so that we can only get a measly 20mbit/2mbit service?

and it's not even fiber.

If it was 1gbit symetrical, people would be singing a different tune

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: waste of space

Nope, the same people would complain about the boxes, no free access for the poor, and the high price of service.

given all the stops and starts of providing broadband to SF, they should be happy to get anything
tshirt

tshirt to ArrayList

Premium Member

to ArrayList

Re: question

Because digging a hole that would fit one and meet the access drainage and safety requirements in a city like SF, would not be possible at many locations, and would be prohibitively expensive at a time when a lot of people think everything should be free.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

r81984

Premium Member

Re: question

Or they could just build fiber to the home and eliminate the need for the VRADS.
sparc
join:2006-05-06

sparc

Member

Re: question

since digging up all of San Fran would somehow make the local government even more happy?

i can just see all the rules and ridiculous restrictions for that to get approved....

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

r81984

Premium Member

Re: question

said by sparc:

since digging up all of San Fran would somehow make the local government even more happy?

i can just see all the rules and ridiculous restrictions for that to get approved....

They already have to dig up to run fiber to all the VRADs. All the VRADs do is let them keep the existing copper from the VRAD to the houses on the block.
I guarantee everyone in that neighborhood would freely let them trench some lines through their back yards as when they are complete and the grass grows back there will be no lawn fridges or any traces of work.

Pashune
Caps stifle innovation
Premium Member
join:2006-04-14
Gautier, MS

Pashune to r81984

Premium Member

to r81984
I have to admit. It looks pretty low tech when we need a bunch of lawn refrigerators everywhere just to provide 20 meg internet service to the people.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

r81984

Premium Member

Re: question

said by Pashune:

I have to admit. It looks pretty low tech when we need a bunch of lawn refrigerators everywhere just to provide 20 meg internet service to the people.

Agreed.

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList

Premium Member

ok how about putting it on top of them tall buildings?

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS to ArrayList

MVM

to ArrayList
• Cost of excavation.
• Venting the heat of electric equipment running 24/7.
• Amount of land disturbed for the excavation (the hole will be probably three times as wide as the surface cabinets).
• No less intrusive to the property owners, whose landscaping will be seriously disturbed (at more cost to AT&T).

Oh, and did I mention the cost of excavation?

BTW, which of these two boxes is uglier, and less intrusive?

VRAD and SAI box.

And my labeling is incorrect. The VRAD does not serve my premises; the distance between the premises and the adjacent SAI box is too great. The VRAD does feed the copper of the adjacent SAI box for those of my neighbors fortunate enough to be closer than I am.

One more thing; neither of those boxes is in a front yard. Very few that I have seen, in San José, California, are in an obtrusive location; none, that I have seen, are in anybody's front yards. The one in the photo is in a parking strip, though, so it may require and easement on the adjacent property deed.

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena

Premium Member

Re: question

As far as front yards go: There are areas with either no sidewalk, or limited sidewalks. The sidewalk in front of my house for instance, is 3 feet wide. There would be no place for a VRAD, and also still have enough space to walk. The VRAD would have to be placed in the 4-foto grass strip between the sidewalk and the road, which is MY property. The sidewalk here is city managed, but technically goes over my property as well.

Quite frankly, I would fight AT&T for sure if they try and pull it off. VRAD's in my area are indeed placed in the 4 feet stretch of personal propery between the sidewalk and the road. They have, however, chosen somewhat more strategic locations, along the main street through the neighborhood, and there where they can be placed to the SIDE of the road, where many people have built a wall. I have driven around, I think my neighborhood has 6 VRADs, and they are all placed on the SIDE of someone's home.

Of course, this isn't always possible, and I can certainly see the home owners point of view.

A realtor: "And here is the living room.... look what a beautiful view it has of the neighborhood and the street. Believe me, once you buy this house, you won't even notice the AT&T box over there. And AT&T only parks right in front of your house maybe twice a month or so. Nothing to worry about."

Right.

Although the "AT&T needs to run fiber" discussion is beating a dead horse, the FIOS solution is a lot more neighborhood friendly:



If AT&T would change to a fiberoptic solution, I don't think neighborhood opposition to these small, hanging cabinets, will exist.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS

MVM

Re: question

said by maartena:

Although the "AT&T needs to run fiber" discussion is beating a dead horse, the FIOS solution is a lot more neighborhood friendly ...

AT&T well never deploy FiOS. Ever. Unless they first buy Verizon.

In my photo, the VRAD is adjacent to an older, pre-existing SAI box. Considering that the VRAD is the "node", where the fiber meets the copper, a VRAD has to be placed very near the neighborhood copper distribution (SAI) box. So, unless AT&T already has an SAI box on your property, the odds are pretty low that they will consider placing a VRAD on your property.
MrHappy316
Wish I had my tank
Premium Member
join:2003-01-02
Columbia, SC

MrHappy316

Premium Member

Picture

Still gotta love that article picture, lol. Still works great for what about 2 years later?

uversetech
@sbcglobal.net

uversetech

Anon

wow

clearly people who don't understand how expensive it is to overbuild fiber to an existing area shouldn't comment

the copper network is in place and with very little work other than installing a cabinet in an existing right of way

wow just gota say get over your selfs its a cabinet next to a cabinet thats been there forever in a existing right of way its just drama
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned)

Member

Re: wow

Okay, Mr. "U-verse Tech" at sbcglobal.net.

You certainly seem like an unbiased source.

footballdude
Premium Member
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO

footballdude

Premium Member

Re: wow

said by 45612019:

Okay, Mr. "U-verse Tech" at sbcglobal.net.

You certainly seem like an unbiased source.

Perhaps you could address his points rather than pretend he's lying. Who better to explain installation costs than someone that deals with it every day?
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned)

Member

Re: wow

But he doesn't deal with it every day. AT&T isn't overbuilding fiber to an existing area with U-verse. They're half-assing it.

A Verizon FiOS tech would be a better person to talk to because they actually are someone who deals with it every day

repair tech
@centurytel.net

repair tech

Anon

Re: wow

between verizon and At&t who has the better roi????? who provides and cheaper product. News flash ..... fiber is too expensive when you can bump a wifi from the house to the vrad and get the same thing done. I notice someone keeps saying this is a 20meg product...... just fyi ....i have seen uverse push over 80meg on a regular basis

runzero
join:2005-09-16
DC

runzero to uversetech

Member

to uversetech
Verizon techs and people who actually have FTTH FiOS say otherwise.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David to uversetech

Premium Member

to uversetech
I dunno, At this point I am all for selling San Francisco at this point. I am thoroughly convinced they would complain no matter how large or small they are.

What kills me is if you see some traffic light boxes, they are 2x the size of the Uverse cabinets.

I think we should just give up and sell!

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena to uversetech

Premium Member

to uversetech
said by uversetech :

clearly people who don't understand how expensive it is to overbuild fiber to an existing area shouldn't comment

the copper network is in place and with very little work other than installing a cabinet in an existing right of way

wow just gota say get over your selfs its a cabinet next to a cabinet thats been there forever in a existing right of way its just drama

Be that as it may.... I haven't run the numbers, so for a moment.... lets assume you are right: Fiber is more expensive.

What is AT&T going to do when Ultra or Quad HD hits the market? (I am talking about the 2650x1440 pixel resolution type, NOT the 7680x4320 type, which is still highly experimental) in say 3 years from now? You can already buy Ultra/Quad HD panels, but obviously no stations are broadcasting in it. Yet. This may change in 3 to 5 years.

And guess what..... DirecTV and Dish, will simply launch another satellite and provide capacity for the country. Cable TV networks can get rid of the analog spectrum by then, and free up a lot of frequency space, and will have plenty of bandwidth for Ultra or Quad HD. FIOS has fiber to the houses, and will have no problem broadcasting 6 or more Ultra/Quad HD streams to houses at that point..... because why? Their networks and systems are future proof without a massive investment needed at that point, because they are making the RIGHT decission now.

What is AT&T going to do? Try new alternative copper technologies to push more through copper? Compress the streams even more so a 1440i video stream would fit in 5.7 Mb? Not offer new technologies at all? With a little luck, AT&T might be able to squeeze a 30/4 internet connection into a 32/5 profile, but that is about all there is left.

Bottom line: If AT&T does NOT move to fiber to the home within a few years, they are going to be left behind and won't be competitive anymore.
mikeiver7
join:2008-04-13
Albany, NY

mikeiver7

Member

Cut AT&T a bit of slack.

No one told them that their customers would want broad band and this was simply the best they could kludge up in 20 or so years. That passive optical stuff is to low tech and only delivers hundreds of megabits a second to each customer. The VRADs that AT&T are proposing to install will give at least a third of that to their end users.

AT&T should have to vault the devices just like the electrical services are required to do. Who wants a 6 foot tall box in their front yard, most wouldn't me included. Just another example of AT&T not giving a crap about the customer or their desire to live in an aesthetically pleasing neighborhood. If they threw that thing in front of my place I would be having a crap too.

•••••••••••••
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

Burying a new fiber network has some risks.

VRAD technology reduces the situation where the carrier tries to install fiber in the utility easement when the utility easement was abandoned years before the installation began and no longer exists. Installers might find a pool built the abandoned easement. Then comes the BS when the contractor installing the fiber wants to rip out the pool with resultant police activity and both parties wind up lawyering up, or the contractor cuts a gas line with a resulting explosion.

On the other hand the cable TV industry had the good fortune that RF over fiber technology was developed. That allowed them to use existing coaxial plant by installing fiber nodes at key locations where major coaxial trunk lines were split into distribution lines. That is essentially what VRAD's do for twisted pair. On the other hand cable fiber nodes are not the size of a small storage building.

Metatron2008
You're it
Premium Member
join:2008-09-02
united state

Metatron2008

Premium Member

Just run fiber wires across the ground everywhere.

No need to bury them. Nobody will notice the wires in between all the trash and homeless people.

•••
raytaylor
join:2009-07-28

raytaylor

Member

The proper way to do it

Click for full size
This is what a cabinet looks like in New Zealand. They are going into every town / city in the country, and support up to 500 houses off each.

Inside is a DSLAM for DSL, patch boards and the existing copper lines back to the auctual telephone exchange for the plain old telephone service.

So rather than install telephone and broadband services into the boxes, they use existing copper for telephone, and just put the broadband in the cabinets so its closer to the customer. The auctual telephone is served still from the central exchange up to 5km away and all the batteries, backup generators etc are back there also.

The reason why these need to be in the streets is because VDSL broadband service will only go 1-2km down a telephone line.

They are painted forrest green or white to suit the surroundings, placed next to existing passive cabinets and have a sacrificial clear coating so spray paint tagging is easy to wipe off.

They are also not quite 6 feet high. More like 4-5 feet.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David

Premium Member

Re: The proper way to do it


Everyone in san francisco would still complain...

1.) it's above ground
2.) that's too big!

end result: sell san francisco.
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080

Member

compromise schmucks

shouldn't some of California be getting FTTP instead of DSL?
It is one of the most dense, and therefore most profitable potential markets in the country worthy of FTTP investment. If not California, where?

••••••
Liberty
Premium Member
join:2005-06-12
Arizona

Liberty

Premium Member

Utility box

The electric utility here has similar sized boxes that they sink most of way into concrete pit in ground - about 2' out of ground

They use a boom truck to lift it up and drop back down when done