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Blames who?I haven't seen Vz blame striking employees in the media. They've noted there have been acts of vandalism and are working to investigate and prosecute those responsible.
Additionally, they said that if an employee is responsible, they will terminate them.
I don't see where they are blaming the striking unions for the vandalism.
IMHO, i'm sure those on strike are responsible for at least SOME of the vandalism.
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(1) It's either 99¢ or $0.99; not .99¢ (2) It's "so MUCH fun" not "so fun" | |
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 | | TheMole |
Re: Blames who?Secondary Headline was changed to add "Indirectly".
Still a leap of faith based on published reports.
The facts are as follows:
. there have been acts of vandalism on Vz property
. Vz is working to find those responsible and will prosecute them
. If a Vz worker is responsible, there will be no hesitation to terminate them
It would be interesting for Vz to report the average acts of vandalism during a non-strike time period and compare it to the 12 that occurred in the past 48 hours.
I'm sure we'd see a pattern.
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(1) It's either 99¢ or $0.99; not .99¢ (2) It's "so MUCH fun" not "so fun" | |
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yellowted
Anon
2011-Aug-9 6:26 pm
Re: Blames who?it would be nice if verizon would publicly blame the companies that repair tellab ont's that nearly fail once they are reinstalled. | |
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C'mon, Union...Over in the Verizon forums, someone asked why so many posters are so hostile to the Union and the workers. THIS is why. Many of us are sympathetic to issues raised by the Union, but even if such vandalism is the work of a very small, short-sighted number, it irreparably damages the cause.
Mr. Bode quoted Verizon as saying they are "working closely with authorities" to investigate and punish those responsible. The UNION should be doing the same. It's the only way to maintain (or salvage) any credibility in the public mind. | |
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|  pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 9:22 am
Re: C'mon, Union...You're absolutely right about both the union and Verizon cooperating with police to get to the bottom of this... all the union does when it lets these things slide is play right into Verizon's hands.
It is like the strikers are holding up signs that say "Nice network you got there, it would be a shame if something happened to it" or "Please hire more contractors."
Ridiculous. The criminals who do this, assuming they are strikers, are digging their own graves even deeper.
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"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
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| |  ArrayListDevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Boston, MA ·RCN
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Re: C'mon, Union...said by pnh102:The criminals who do this, assuming they are strikers, are digging their own graves even deeper.
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| | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 10:47 am
Re: C'mon, Union...said by ArrayList:said by pnh102:The criminals who do this, assuming they are strikers, are digging their own graves even deeper.
It is a valid assumption to make, as this only seems to happen whenever there is a strike. This isn't just true of Verizon, but also in other companies where there are strikes. While few people are ever prosecuted or punished for these actions, it doesn't make the assumption any less valid. Consider the following:
•Why do there always seem to be large occurrences of these incidents during strikes?
•Many of these incidents occur in places where the general public doesn't have direct or easy physical access.
•The type of damage done doesn't have the M.O. of a random "I'm gonna break something for the hell of it" type of action. The perpetrator had to know exactly what he was doing.
Granted, this doesn't conclusively prove anything, but given these facts, this is a huge red flag against the strikers. --
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
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| | | |  N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:2 |
N3OGH
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 8:47 pm
Re: C'mon, Union...Conversely, does anyone put it past the management at Verizon to orchistrate these acts of vandalism behind the scenes in order to make the unions look bad in the public eye? Given the present anti union sentiment, I have no doubt they would.
The folks in management are no more virtuous than the folks in labor, and both would stoop to such tactics to win a fight. So, instead of jumping to conclusions, let the authorities investigate and bring those responsible to justice.
Ultimately a judge will decide, and given my experience in dealing with the judiciary in this country (never as a defendant) those with the biggest pot of cash will win.
Holy shit, I feel like I'm living in Russia anymore. Everything is for sale to the highest bidder.....
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Petty people are disproportionally corrupted by petty power | |
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| | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 10:09 pm
Re: C'mon, Union...said by N3OGH:Conversely, does anyone put it past the management at Verizon to orchistrate these acts of vandalism behind the scenes in order to make the unions look bad in the public eye? Given the present anti union sentiment, I have no doubt they would.
They could, but unions have been doing this for so long that even if management was behind this, the unions get the blame anyway. --
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
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| | | |  pfak
Premium Member
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC |
to pnh102
You dolt. Equipment gets vandalized all the time, people run their cars into it, there is copper thieves, etc. etc.
You just don't hear about it, because the company at the time doesn't want to cast blame into the union for it.
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The more I C, the less I see. | |
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| | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2011-Aug-10 9:09 am
Re: C'mon, Union...said by pfak:You dolt. Equipment gets vandalized all the time, people run their cars into it, there is copper thieves, etc. etc. Of course it does... but this seems to happen more often than not whenever a union is on strike. From the childish tone of your post, it seems like this is the first strike you've witnessed. Maybe when you've seen the same thing happen during numerous strikes against various companies, you might reach a different point of view. --
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
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| | | | |  PathfinderDazed Confused
Premium Member
join:2000-03-26
New York, NY
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to pfak
said by pfak:You dolt. Equipment gets vandalized all the time, people run their cars into it, there is copper thieves, etc. etc.
You just don't hear about it, because the company at the time doesn't want to cast blame into the union for it.
Yeah I am sure a car ran into this 
a truck hit it
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to pfak
said by pfak:You dolt. Equipment gets vandalized all the time, people run their cars into it, there is copper thieves, etc. When legitimate accidents occur, there is an evidence trail that supports the accidental nature of what happened. Accidents do not discriminate between who owns the equipment/property. When you have dozens of fiber cable cuts affecting only one company out of the 2-4 utilities (phone, cable, fiber and power) that are sharing the same support infrastructures (poles, trenches, conduits, etc.), there is a very high probability that it is targeted vandalism... a truck hitting a pole would indiscriminately take out all fours and leaves very obvious signs. | |
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disruption of servicesHere is a more complete article from the Wall Street Journal: » online.wsj.com/article/S ··· 564.htmlI could make several comments but I will refrain. You may draw your own conclusions. I will point out that normally when a group disrupts a legitimate business and tries to force them to do what they desire through violence and intimidation it is called extortion, and usually considered a crime. In the world of collective bargaining it is referred to as protecting worker's rights. --
Go Heels! | |
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|  norbert26
Premium Member
join:2010-08-10
Warwick, RI |
Re: disruption of services Note that you have to subscribe to the WSJ to read that. | |
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Re: disruption of servicesSorry for the inconvenience. I was able to read the entire story as a free preview. I think if you Google the title of the article and clink on the WSJ link it will let you read the story as a free preview. At least that is how I read the story.
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Go Heels! | |
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| | |  joako
Premium Member
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
kudos:6 |
joako
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 3:40 pm
Re: disruption of servicesWhy don't you re-post it here? I don't care to sign up for something to read it.
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PRescott7-2097 | |
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Re: disruption of servicesBecause that would be reposting copyrighted material without the copyright holders permission. | |
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to Tarheel72
I-got-mineLet me translate. "I GOT MY free preview," is what you're saying. The I-GOT-MINE attitude comes through loud and clear.
Verizon protests too much and too quick. Collective bargaining and workers rights still exist. It's totally legal for those union-represented workers to strike and to bargain.
FAR more likely its managers and contractors not knowing the systems. All the B.S. about 'no disruptions' is just that. Incompetence gets promoted, it's nothing new.
Your tea is getting cold. | |
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to Tarheel72
I ran into these people this morning going to work. They were blocking the road not just the verizon entrance. These people need to get a life.
In bad times you dont strike. I would hire a temp out sourced group and then fill all the call centers with people who need jobs for half the cost.
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anoner86
Anon
2011-Aug-9 9:31 am
How do we know the truth?Assuming the accusations are not just lies by a corporation trying to paint itself as good in th media. Most telco equipment outside the CO is so fragile that it breaks if the wind/rain blows the right way.
What does VZ call it when day in/out their employees who are working leave covers off equipment, don't care about how things work in the long-term? What does VZ call it when their supervisors ignore the issue? Not much different... | |
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| estover4
Premium Member
join:2004-03-16
Valencia, PA
kudos:1 |
estover4
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 10:53 am
Re: How do we know the truth?said by anoner86 :Assuming the accusations are not just lies by a corporation trying to paint itself as good in th media. Most telco equipment outside the CO is so fragile that it breaks if the wind/rain blows the right way.
So wait are the union workers the ones who installed this equipment that is so poorly installed that it can not withstand being rained, or blown upon? Please make up my mind. Do the union guys do a better job and therefor require more pay, or was all of this stuff installed by subs, and if the subs are doing all the work what exactly does the union do? | |
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to anoner86
You, sir, appear to have very limited knowledge of outside plant equipment. For transparency, are you a union member? | |
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Sabotage or contractors messing up?Sabotage or contractors messing up?
Some of the errors can be from mangers or contractors who don't know what they doing. | |
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 aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA |
aaronwt
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 10:15 am
They need to offer a big reward...for info leading to the arrest of people involved. Then maybe some will be turned in and they can be prosecuted and hopefully put in jail for a long time. | |
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ArrayListDevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Boston, MA |
way to jump to conclusions peopleI don't think any evidence has been presented to put the strikers to blame for the sabotage yet, so pipe down and stop accusing them for the sabotage. | |
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|  PhoenixDownFIOS is Awesome
Premium Member
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1 |
Re: way to jump to conclusions peopleLOL ... it's obviously the customers at work here
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~ Insert a Funny Sig Here ~ | |
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| | ArrayListDevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Boston, MA |
Re: way to jump to conclusions peopleor just vandals. lord knows I cut plenty of phone lines when I was a kid. | |
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Re: way to jump to conclusions peopleWith all the evidence, its vandals who likely work for the union. Most people don't have a clue where the phone lines are and actually have respect for other people's property, so speak for yourself about being a reckless punk kid vandalizing property and cutting phone lines... | |
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Re: way to jump to conclusions peopleGood call there, lakerfan82. | |
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Re: way to jump to conclusions peopleJust remember that this DID happen in during the 2000 strike:
"In the 2000 strike, there were at least 455 incidents of sabotage, vandalism and harassment reported–including the near-electrocution of two Verizon strikers who mistakenly cut through a 13,000-volt power cable they thought was a phone line."
It's pretty hard for the union membership to claim total innocence when it has a history of being anything but. Even then, the article did not actually claim it was the strikers, though it did leave that as a strong inference. | |
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| | | | | |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Zoom 5341J
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KrK
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 4:19 pm
Re: way to jump to conclusions peopleVandalism is uncalled for, but if you have 50,000 ppl on strike for x amount of months and have 455 incidents of suspected vandalism, it's obviously a very low percentage rate.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | | | pfak
Premium Member
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC |
to lakerfan82
Or the corporation. | |
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| KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J
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to ArrayList
It also makes good press to trash the union when "negotiations" have broken down. Problems due to under-staffing, outages? Tell the customers it's union sabotage.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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|  David
VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
kudos:102 |
to ArrayList
said by ArrayList:I don't think any evidence has been presented to put the strikers to blame for the sabotage yet, so pipe down and stop accusing them for the sabotage.
plus something else some people are forgetting, since there is a lessend workforce in these places vandals will consider this high opportunity to move in and rip off copper cable facilities. The theory is the company will be too wrapped up in negotiations and coverage to do a proper investigation and essentially "catch them with their pants down. They will just blame the union, and we will be home free." I remember about 7-8 years ago when our union went on strike for 3 days. We came back and apparently in that time over in around mitchell, IL over here someone cut the better part of 2 miles of cable off the poles and was trying to cash it in at a copper scrapyard. Their excuse was they figured the company would be too busy worrying about other things and would just blame the union anyway while they got away. They created fake badges and the whole 9 yards. none of them were even employees at all. So they had no incentive except to get rich. --
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
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| |  VeloslaveGeek For God
Premium Member
join:2003-07-11
Martinez, CA
kudos:1 |
Re: way to jump to conclusions peoplesaid by David
plus something else some people are forgetting, since there is a lessend workforce in these places vandals will consider this high opportunity to move in and rip off copper cable facilities. The theory is the company will be too wrapped up in negotiations and coverage to do a proper investigation and essentially "catch them with their pants down. They will just blame the union, and we will be home free."
[/BQUOTE :You seem to be having a problem understanding the difference between the words "vandalism" and "theft"
Vandalism is what has been reported and is rarely performed for profit.
I like to try and see both sides of the argument also but your attempt is weak.
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Mom was right.... I NEED fiber! | |
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| David
VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
kudos:102 |
to ArrayList
I am sure there was more to it than I remember, it was a big hub, bub... if memory serves they had it down to which scrap yard they would hit, how much they would take there and everything. Those guys had a plan and in the notebook they had it figured out how often each would get paid and when. It's almost a 9 year old story at the time, and yes I do know the difference between vandalism and theft. However, and typically, one doesn't follow too far from the other. --
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
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b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA |
'Network Sabotage' or incompetent managers trying to ...'Network Sabotage' or incompetent managers trying to do the jobs of the people they normally are in charge of? | |
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| MrHappy316Wish I had my tank
Premium Member
join:2003-01-02
Columbia, SC ·Time Warner Cable
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Re: 'Network Sabotage' or incompetent managers trying to ...It could be the above alone, or a combination of things. But if Verizon is using the help the children, hindering first responders line I think they might be using network problems as an excuse to get the federal government to intervene in the interest of public safety. Of course if the federal government forces these people back to work what is the purpose of unions and strikes anyway. | |
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 altermatt
Premium Member
join:2004-01-22
White Plains, NY ·Verizon FiOS
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Speed Slowdowns Related?Many of us (especially in the Northeast) have been reported significant speed slowdowns this last week or so, and I wondered if it might be related to the labor issues, either due to lack of personnel, intentional sabotage, or what. Yet for as many threads as have been posted lately about speed slowdowns, there doesn't seem to be any response from VZ, even in the Direct forum, explaining the speed deterioration. This definitely predates this last weekend.
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The truth of a thing is the feel of it, not the think of it. -- Stanley Kubrick | |
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asdfdfdfdfdf
Anon
2011-Aug-9 11:12 am
There are 45000 striking.There are 12 reported acts of vandalism.
This becomes a "justification" for the right wing's persistent attacks on unions.
If this is the standard then surely the right should be on the ramparts demanding the complete dismantling of our political and economic system over the massive pain created by the financial breakdown and subsequent economic wipeout. But the right wing wouldn't begin to hold others accountable to the standard of perfection they set for the unions and those who belong to them. Please stop trying to convince us that what you are feeling is some kind of moral outrage driven by principle. You simply have a consuming hatred of unions driven by your ideological agenda to return us to a pre world war social order, to dismantle the modern social safety net and break the back of the gains labor made in the post war age.
If a union employee farted near a picket line you would claim he was a terrorist in possession of wmd.
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DampierPhillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23
Rochester, NY |
Convenient Press ReleaseI'd note after being on Verizon's mailing list for press releases for several years now, I have never seen a press release fired off so quickly for acts of vandalism. And the press release leaves little doubt who Verizon thinks is responsible. Here are the opening paragraphs of the original: Verizon customers are noticing only minimal impact from the strike by 45,000 of the company's wireline employees represented by the Communications Workers of America and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. Verizon has repaired at least 12 acts of sabotage to its communications facilities in four states, starting Saturday (Aug. 6) and continuing after the strike began on Sunday (Aug. 7). Additionally, some pickets have unlawfully blocked Verizon managers' access to numerous company work centers and garages. Now tell me again how Verizon is not implicating union workers for the acts of vandalism. They are not directly saying they did it, but I assure you the media will cover these acts in the same story that covers the ongoing strike. Are union workers responsible? Perhaps, and they should be caught and jailed accordingly. But it's clear the company is trying to use this to their PR advantage, hence the press release. --
Phillip M. Dampier
Editor, Stop the Cap!
»stopthecap.com | |
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 i1me2ao
Premium Member
join:2001-03-03
TEXAS |
i1me2ao
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 4:20 pm
this is called a strikebecause the company will blame everything on the union.
tablets not selling union
connection issues union
stock drops union
salary stealing union
this is how the game is played..
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ummh union bad, ummh union bad, please tell me what else to regurgitate | |
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 ·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS
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history repeats itself..this is not without precedent... except this time the pro-business climate puts more power in the hands of Verizon than the union.
Might have some value in a lock-out, but this is a VOLUNTARY strike. It's not any more bad for both parties than those local channel fee disputes. In the end, both will lose $$ | |
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RDC17
join:2011-05-15
Baltimore, MD |
RDC17
Member
2011-Aug-9 5:38 pm
Unions, stay classyWe saw the SEIU thugs going after innocent citizens at town hall meetings, then we saw the SEIU thugs combined with their union goons go after people in Wisconsin. Corporate sabotage is nothing new for unions.
The unions want to get the public, working class' approval. But they refuse to take the higher ground. | |
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| i1me2ao
Premium Member
join:2001-03-03
TEXAS |
i1me2ao
Premium Member
2011-Aug-9 6:08 pm
Re: Unions, stay classyseiu and this union are two separate entities and grouping them together does no good.
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ummh union bad, ummh union bad, please tell me what else to regurgitate | |
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 tmpchaosRequiescat in pace
Numquam oblitus
join:2000-04-28
Hoboken, NJ |
tmpchaos
Numquam oblitus
2011-Aug-9 5:42 pm
(topic offline) LondonModerator Action
This entire topic was removed, either temporarily, or permanently.
stated reason was: ot trollock | |
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anon777
Anon
2011-Aug-9 7:06 pm
Dont care who, but why the damn strikeOk, so let me get this straight. VZ likely wants to cut benefits and pay. Union does not like this. Strike. So do the employees of VZ not realize that 95% of the working world has had massive layoffs, required pay cuts, loss of benefits, etc. over the last 3 years and I know at least 50 people sitting at home wishing they could find ANY job that paid minimum wage, just so that they could prevent foreclosure on their home and collapse of their family?!?!? I hate to break it to them, but this is the world that we live in and they better get used to it now and adapt like the rest of us. Blame whoever you want, but fact is, the world changed and you can cry if you want, but accept it and move on.
I would love to have my full salary that I had 3 years ago, but it's gone and likely not to return for several years.
Get a clue and go back to work or let someone else that WANTS to work do it. | |
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 PAJ
@bellsouth.net |
PAJ
Anon
2011-Aug-9 8:51 pm
Its for the childrenThey're just doing it for the kids and apparently its his job not Verizon's. Video Linky | |
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 brak22
Premium Member
join:2006-04-13
kudos:1 |
brak22
Premium Member
2011-Aug-10 9:50 pm
who is to blameThey are just trying to cover up where the managers and contractors don't know what they are doing and mess stuff up! | |
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| PathfinderDazed Confused
Premium Member
join:2000-03-26
New York, NY ·Time Warner Cable
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Re: who is to blamesaid by brak22:They are just trying to cover up where the managers and contractors don't know what they are doing and mess stuff up!
Does this look made up? Looks like sabotage to me. 
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 rtfm
join:2005-07-09
Washington, DC |
rtfm
Member
2011-Aug-10 10:14 pm
Strange this fibre cut has been so invisibleWe lost our XO EoC Monday when someone's auger at Rt 28 & The Dulles Toll Road took out a 144 strand bundle.
Down 1135-0230
But I have seen ZERO mention of this. | |
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| rtfm |
rtfm
Member
2011-Aug-10 11:54 pm
We lost our XO EoC Monday when someone's auger at Rt 28 & The Dulles Toll Road took out a 144 strand bundle.
Down 1135-0230
But I have seen ZERO mention of this. | |
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