ISPs which in the past had historically improved in Netflix performance because of faster speeds, are now finding themselves falling in Netflix's new monthly streaming ISP rankings because they're not signing up for Netflix's CDN network. As noted recently, Netflix stated they'd start offering users "Super HD" and 3D streams -- if their ISP signed up for Netflix's new Open Connect Content Delivery Network.
As expected many bigger ISPs, most of whom have had neutrality fights with Netflix previously, have not agreed to Netflix's demand for special CDN treatment (AT&T, Comcast, Verizon, Time Warner Cable, Cox, Charter, Brighthouse, etc) and are suddenly dropping in Netflix ratings.
ISPs who agreed to sign up (Cablevision and Suddenlink) are suddenly and miraculously seeing huge gains.
Carriers like Time Warner Cable have complained that Netflix is closing off access to content for their own benefit, hoping you'll ignore that this has been a cable industry business practice for years across numerous fronts. Netflix has countered by insisting that signing up for the Netflix CDN is free, and ISPs like Sonic.net have told me the process is relatively simple.
Whether you buy Netflix's claims is likely driven by where you've fallen on previous network neutrality debates. Some will argue that Netflix is simply trying to cut down on transit costs and are offering a free service that will benefit everyone -- while reducing costs for all sides. Others are going to charge that Netflix is engaged in the same kind of underhanded tactics ISPs have employed for years.
This is the real world and if ISPs don't like their status, they can work on improving it, especially since the span between 2 and 7 on the list is less than 256kbps. Obviously ISPs are going to jump around on the list as ISPs are capable of delivering a Netflix stream at that content's highest bitrate. They can move up in the rankings by giving their subs what they want...Netflix Super HD.
ISPs cry about how much traffic Netflix accounts for (while ignoring that it is ISP customers actually requesting the traffic be sent) so obviously Netflix performance is pretty important to a lot of subscribers.
Cox is one of those starting to join the Netflix connect program in certain markets,, this while also ramping up speeds with the top tier now running 150Mb in many markets.
... based on the data it appears Netflix is gaming the results:
• OpenConnect "improves" performance because select ISPs get higher bitrate content. Netflix controlled • All non-OpenConnect performance is suddenly going down... Netflix transit and CDN selection for content delivery performance. Also Netflix controlled. -- "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy
2013-Feb-12 10:26 am: ·
skeechan Ai Otsukaholic Premium Member join:2012-01-26 AA169|170 kudos:2
ISPs can choose to join the transit program. Saying that Netflix controls the performance because ISPs don't want to join is like saying Mercedes controls sales because you don't want to buy.
Netflix is offering a NEW option and ISPs are the ones in total control as to whether or not they join. ISPs can simply say no thanks and they don't "lose" anything. The same content they had before is still available for their subscribers.
But for ISPs that want to offer MORE to their customers can partner with Netflix to do that.
I have no idea what that analogy means or how it is related.
Netflix is ranking ISP performance based on performance elements that Netflix specifically manages. I call that gaming and shaming to get what you want. -- "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy
Do you know how Netflix's open-connect network is utilized?
1) Through Netflix Transit (graph above) 2) Directly in the ISP (limited e.g Suddenlink and Cablevision) 3) Through Akamai, Level 3 and Limelight
Similar network graphs from other CDNs
Limelight - »bgp.he.net/AS22822#_graph4 Level 3 - »bgp.he.net/AS3356#_graph4 Akamai - mostly imbedded in ISPs via relationships -- "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy
Thanks for the details. I was more along of the impression that Netflix was pushing their CDN model along with the caching servers they offer to off-load the constant hammering of their network (thus, increasing their transit costs).
The posts and this article seem to suggest that Netflix is doing something malicious, yet they're simply offering a value add for those that cache content on their networks and they're advertising that this will deliver the highest quality.
2013-Feb-12 3:26 pm: ·
skeechan Ai Otsukaholic Premium Member join:2012-01-26 AA169|170 kudos:2
Netflix doesn't "manage the performance". If an ISP has sufficient overhead to reliably stream the 3Mb stream, they'll be at the top of the list, just as we see no 2 and no 7 only 256kbps apart. If they can't, they'll be at the bottom of the list.
It is just like the Mercedes dealer. Mercedes doesn't "manage" the sales. Anyone with the money (the overhead) and get the car. Mercedes doesn't tell one person the car is $20K and another that is is $80K...they don't traffic shape sales and Netflix doesn't traffic shape content going to the MSOs to degrade their performance.
Netflix doesn't "manage the performance". If an ISP has sufficient overhead to reliably stream the 3Mb stream, they'll be at the top of the list, just as we see no 2 and no 7 only 256kbps apart. If they can't, they'll be at the bottom of the list.
The actual data shows something very different. ISPs that are the top performers in non-Netflix Internet measurements (Akamai, Ookla, DSLR) are ranked low on Netflix while lessor performing ISPs (who subscribe to OpenConnect) are at the top.
It also shows ALL ISPs that have not subscribed to OpenConnect are degrading month over month since Netflix changed to a monthly ranking and their OpenConnect lobbying. This is very different than other performance metrics (e.g. Ookla) which show steady increases every month
FiOS at #5 and Suddenlink at #3? -- "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy
Put the last 3 months together and look at the trend lines. Netflix is picking ISP winners and losers for their customers and calling it "ISP Rankings".
Smart move for them.... Few people will notice/care.
-- "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy
2013-Feb-12 5:03 pm: ·
skeechan Ai Otsukaholic Premium Member join:2012-01-26 AA169|170 kudos:2
There is no evidence to support a claim that Netflix is "picking winners and losers". Zero.
Speed tests lasting 10 seconds, molested by powerboost and other gimmicks aren't evidence of traffic shaping by Netflix. Those speed tests take zero account of sustained throughput nor do they reflect stability during "prime time" when people are most likely to be using streaming services such as Netflix.
Speed tests lasting 10 seconds, molested by powerboost and other gimmicks aren't evidence of traffic shaping by Netflix. Those speed tests take zero account of sustained throughput nor do they reflect stability during "prime time" when people are most likely to be using streaming services such as Netflix.
Check all the Shaperprobe, FCC Measuring Broadband, Sam Knows and other data which refutes all your regurgitated rhetoric. It all shows speeds to many BB providers are accurate
Or ignore the facts and data and spout your beliefs of it makes YOU feel better. It is your right to do so here.
2013-Feb-12 10:24 pm: ·
skeechan Ai Otsukaholic Premium Member join:2012-01-26 AA169|170 kudos:2
Thats impartially incorrect. A number of those telcos listed also own very large cloud service providers (Terremark, Navisite, Saavis, etc), and they CHARGE companies for connecting to THEIR CDN. If Netflix says openCDN or I am transiting it from a tier 1/2 provider that is almost punitive on Netflix part, however it boils down to who carries a bigger stick. Netflix isn't small potatoes anymore and they are in a strong market position to begin to make demands of the ISP, which is perfectly wonderful.
It's a slippery slope, because if the ISP start pushing for caps and not including their IP services (in the cap) which happen to also compete w/ say Netflix (think redbox), let the lawsuits fly. VOD is ripe for lawsuits.... In Canada Rogers was straight up gangsta on traffic shaping (and still is) to benefit it's interests. For over a year I had to play whack a mole to even get a TPP VOIP provider to work for the rents.
Netflix can hold back hidef streams and when the customer's demand it, they will need to cave. This is NO different than AMC negotiating a higher retrans fee of holding back HD because Breaking Bad is worth more.
Also it's hilarious for them to say Netflix is holding back content, when Cablevision for the longest time shafted us upstate on MSG HD just because. I can go on and on.
I guess the ISP's only like it when they can control the sandbox. They don't like when a new kid joins and starts throwing sand in their eyes.
2013-Feb-12 12:19 pm: ·
R4M0N Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo join:2000-10-04 Glen Allen, VA
Re: Shameless? Only if you are an shill for the MSOs
That is the funny ISP logic. They gripe about traffic cost then Netflix proposes a free solution and the ISPs claim Netflix is forcing them to sign up or lose the very content they say is costing them too much money even though they wouldn't be losing any content at all.
That is the funny ISP logic. They gripe about traffic cost then Netflix proposes a free solution and the ISPs claim Netflix is forcing them to sign up or lose the very content they say is costing them too much money even though they wouldn't be losing any content at all.
It's not a free solution.
2013-Feb-12 11:08 am: ·
ke4pym Premium Member join:2004-07-24 Charlotte, NC
That is the funny ISP logic. They gripe about traffic cost then Netflix proposes a free solution and the ISPs claim Netflix is forcing them to sign up or lose the very content they say is costing them too much money even though they wouldn't be losing any content at all.
It's not a free solution.
Well, it's free to the ISP's. They're just going to pass the cost to us. Back in the day, that used to be called "the cost of doing business".
Then, everyone will complain about why their internet bills are suddenly going up.
Re: Shameless? Only if you are an shill for the MSOs
"free cheap intel boxes" in exchange for REALLY REALLY expensive space, power, routers, transport, etc. that the current CDNs delivering traffic are paying for today.
Re: Shameless? Only if you are an shill for the MSOs
Akamai already do this and have their content caches all over the place.
As far as all of this 'REALLY REALLY' expensive stuff the trade is between Netflix and the ISP, it doesn't have to benefit both equally so long as it just benefits both which given the relatively minor cost of colo it will - it saves everyone transit and peering. The parts it doesn't save the ISP they will be paying for either way and, you'd expect, the costs of these are being covered by customer subscriptions.
As a reminder Netflix traffic that traverses consumer ISP networks is being requested by the paying customers of that ISP. It's not Netflix forcing the traffic on them for nothing, paying customers want it, the ISP can either provide it or justify to those paying customers why they won't.
"free cheap intel boxes" in exchange for REALLY REALLY expensive space, power, routers, transport, etc. that the current CDNs delivering traffic are paying for today.
Somehow this doesn't seem like an equal trade.
Akamai do the exact same thing. I don't see ISPs up in arms about that.
2013-Feb-12 3:36 pm: ·
skeechan Ai Otsukaholic Premium Member join:2012-01-26 AA169|170 kudos:2
And the end result is free or extremely low cost bandwidth, and cost savings.
It's win-win for Netflix and ISP's... UNLESS your ISP is in the Pay TV business and doesn't want Netflix usage to encourage people to drop their PayTV. These are the vast majority of ISP's who are refusing to join Open Connect and are complaining and bitching about Netflix. They know their subscribers want good Netflix, and it burns them because they don't want them to get it! -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
The cost of 4U of rack space, power and connectivity is virtually 0 compared to the cost of everything else ISPs run. And it saves them 70-95% of Netflix transit traffic. Seems like a perfectly fair trade to me. -- [Sig removed by Administrator: signature can not exceed 20GB]
2013-Feb-12 11:22 pm: ·
tshirt Premium Member join:2004-07-11 Snohomish, WA kudos:7
They don't give hardware, they place THEIR hardware inside the ISP's network. The ISP is then responsible for power, cooling, network interfaces and maintaince and insurance, but does not own or CONTROL the box. I would be VERY reluctant to have an outside interest place and control anything inside MY network, let alone enter an agreement with the other requirements, I would be happy to provide direct "peer" ports (at normal rates/costs) at various points (say the CRAN in Comcast's case) for them and they can house their distributed "warehouses" at adjacent DC's (next door or within the same local fiber ring for each location) The reduction in long haul traffic and the response latency should be very similar to the proposed Netflix from the end users view point and the ISP and Netflix should both see some benefit without being overly integrated. (people already complain about ISP's being/being to closely tied to content providers, letting them sleep together will not improve that separation. )
Re: Shameless? Only if you are a shill for the MSOs
LOL. Like major cable ISP's care what netflix says? Why would they when every other "rating" out there has them dead last except one. The quarterly earnings report. And lets face it, its the only one that matters to them, and until that one says you need to change your ways, its going to be a BOB Segar song all day long. Still the same.
This rating is ONLY for netflix and only affects netflix it says nothing about gaming performance, or hulu performance, or torrent/downloading performance, youtube performance you get the idea by now.
It's not the real world, its the netflix world, and like banks who rate other banks better then credit unions no one really cares about this. This is the online equate of a slow news day. Today a deer crossed the road. Uh, they do that every day. I know, but we caught it on film this time. It's fill until something really exciting comes along then its to page two with this where it belongs.
Re: Shameless? Only if you are a shill for the MSOs
i think you need to look up how much traffic Netflix does.. ISP A doesn't provide bandwidth for Netflix, ISP B does.. customer switchs.. ISP A CARES what Netflix says. Last i heard it was 30% + its expected to be in the 40% in a year or so.. that a heck of alot of people who use it and will pick the best provider.
maybe im wrong. But I love fair play turn around.. and with Netflix gaining more (content)in the next few years when contracts take effect.. the days of $5 for HBO, $5 for Showtime, $5 for XXXX is going the way of of all old overpriced business models (phone hardlines comes to mine), to be replaced with just $10 for all... big upside for consumer.
2013-Feb-13 6:54 am: ·
BillRoland Premium Member join:2001-01-21 Ocala, FL kudos:3
There was a recent thread in the Cox forum indicating that at least one market (I believe it was New England) is testing it.
My tivo premere here in cox san diego switches to super hd while watching it. Takes a minute but it does. My roku has not yet. -- The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult. The day he forgives himself, he becomes wise. Alden Nowlan
If some one is moving and wants to know who the best is, this would be a great resource to help make a decision. I would hope that it would help ISPs with customer service as well. The only way to wake a company up is to hurt there cash flow.
It seems like most readers have been duped by a big splash of red on the rankings. All of the ISPs in that group were around ~2.0 Mbps last month, and they're still around ~2.0 Mbps this month. -- If you can't open it, you don't own it.
.... the CDN is nice because it does reduce the size of the transit connections the ISP must pay for, but it does nothing about last mile bottlenecks. For better or worse many ISPs don't want to invest in expanding their last mile infrastructure to support this type of streaming, at least not at the current price points for residential internet connections.
Many of the ISPs think that Netflix/other content providers should be paying for these upgrades, which I would concur is BS. I just part company the people that think their ISP has an obligation to provide them with ever increasing amounts of bandwidth for the same pricepoint that they've always paid.
The ends of the network can do whatever they want. That's why ESPN can cut deals with ISPs for exclusive content without breaking the network. It's ESPN that does the blocking, not the ISP.
The same thing is happening here. Netflix gives special access to ISP customers, if the ISP has an agreement. It sounds like a much better deal for the ISP than ESPN is offering.
Now, what if Google started asking the ISP money for access? All of a sudden, the price of internet access is going to go up, as "must have" sites charge for access. To the customer, it seems free, but it wouldn't be. Competition would solve this problem; there could be ISPs that don't pay anyone, and websites that don't charge ISPs for access.
quote:Netflix stated they'd start offering users "Super HD" and 3D streams -- if their ISP signed up for Netflix's new Open Connect Content Delivery Network.
Im also sure that Verizons relationship with RedBox also is a big reason why they are dropping on the list. As if Charter, Suddenlink, and Cablevison provide better internet access; please.
ISPs don't care how Netflix ranks them. It makes absolutely no difference to them.
It has always been rigged anyway. Google Fiber has been on the charts since day one, despite having almost no customers. They don't even have enough to meet the minimum traffic requirements set by Netflix to join CDN.
2013-Feb-12 10:38 am: ·
b10010011 Whats a Posting tag? join:2004-09-07 Bellingham, WA
If any ISP should be complaining, it should be the little ones that aren't capable of joining in on the CDN programs so that they too can get the new netflix formats.
Thinking about this from a business and consumer perspective, I find it hard to choose a side on this one, for a few different reasons. first I don't want this to succeed because, this would effectively destroy net neutrality and set precedence for creating a tier'ed internet, if you let content providers dictate which "class" of citizens get what content, you're going to create this tier'ed internet that so many have feared. from a business sense this idea makes sense, this also forces isp's to create links to wherever Netflix's "nodes" are. sure actual accessing of the data is free provided you connect directly to them but its not free to create and maintain those links on the isps side. On the other hand, this would greatly improve peoples access to Netflix throughout the north America.
So from a business sense, this is lose win relationship where the ISP loses, and Netflix wins not to mention the precedence this creates for websites/content providers to force isps to do whatever they want. and you know isps hate to lose so what they'll do is implement Netflix cdn link, then say " it costs money for this, therefore if you (customer) want access to Netflix super HD, then you have to pay 5$ extra a month" . from a consumer side, they're in a win/lose scenario where they gain better Netflix access but they lose net neutrality and a fair and equal internet, I think consumers should be able to choose the speed they want to access "THE INTERNET" not "some free parts of the internet" .
providing a win-win situation for everyone--themselves, ISPs, and customers alike--who participates in their initiative... those BASTARDS! -- "Face piles of trials with smiles; it riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave."
As a cable guy I have to say I don't give a shit. Netflix can burn in hell for all I care. I just wish Mediacom would throttle Netflix traffic because people that use Netflix probably have no cable TV service or have DirecTV.
I know they won't throttle it but at least for now there are no plans of making Netflix service better. -- I speak for myself, not my employer.
As a cable guy I have to say I don't give a shit. Netflix can burn in hell for all I care. I just wish Mediacom would throttle Netflix traffic because people that use Netflix probably have no cable TV service or have DirecTV.
I know they won't throttle it but at least for now there are no plans of making Netflix service better.
So, how is spending 100 bucks a month working out for you to watch Television?
There are no Net Neutrality rules for Netflix. Blocking content and degrading performance to specific ISP is fair game for them.
Net Neutrality is a one-way street and only ISPs are obligated to play fair. Content can discriminate and shape traffic all they want.
ISPs may be "obligated", but the result is a race to the bottom, performance-wise, where every internet-originated stream gets equally miserable delivery. Netflix is indeed, countering that result.
2013-Feb-12 3:17 pm: ·
chip89 Premium Member join:2012-07-05 Independence, OH
If I recall correctly, I saw an article on DSL-R when Netflix first started pushing this that while yes, Netflix was not charging for access, there was a downside to the ISP's.
I forget how the arguement went but I think that it had something to with allowing netflix access to the ISP network. I wish I could still find the article and comment but that was a couple of weeks ago. It might not have even been on here but on another news site.
2013-Feb-12 3:07 pm: ·
David VIP join:2002-05-30 Granite City, IL kudos:102
Netflix closed today at $177.95, up from their 12 month low of $52.81. They reached a high around $300 in 2011 and are making a comeback but I can't figure out who's buying this stock.
The P/E Ratio of 614.3x earnings is gigantic and unless their earnings increase they will be the next Blockbuster. And they are ranking ISPs? -- Another 4 years of Hope and Change. The rich will still get richer and the poor get an Obamaphone and Food Stamps. lol
2013-Feb-12 6:58 pm: ·
Bill Neilson Premium Member join:2009-07-08 Alexandria, VA
We have already seen how often they simply issue press releases stating laughable things with zero basis in facts.
They would and will just do it again unless Netflix probably gives them some sort of deal that allows the major ISP's to pad their wallets a bit more while giving Netflix little to no actual benefit.
Why the malicious tone of the post? NetFlix says if you peer with me, you can get this. If you accept my caching servers, you can get this. No cost to the ISPs. The new methods cut out middle men and allows NetFlix a higher degree of control over the quality of their services.
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the box.
