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Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutIf you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
With the surveillance we increase the likelihood of catching the bad guys. Especially the real bad guys. No one should be opposed to that. | |
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 |  FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5 |
FFH5
Premium Member
2013-Jun-10 5:57 pm
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutPolitics didn't chg my mind. I was for NSA spying under Bush and am for it now under Obama. | |
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| | | bdon78I didn't do it
join:2009-05-18
Decatur, GA
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bdon78
Member
2013-Jun-11 9:04 am
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry About
The fact that linklisit is for NSA spying doesn't make him a sheep, it just means he doesn't follow the same principles as you. For all we know YOU are the sheep who is just following what some professor at your community college (where they didn't cover punctuation) spouted off to you.
You might want to consider this, there are those of us who don't care if the NSA hears us calling our mom to talk about getting help to plant a flower bed or for advice on dealing with our wives because we aren't doing anything illegal or immoral and we consider the alternative of crazy people running around with bombs blowing up people to be a much scarier alternative.
That being said, like anything else in this world it can be taken advantage of but there is no part of our day to day lives where we don't encounter people taking advantage of a system. Those are the people who need to be brought to justice.
Well, them and teachers who don't teach the difference between "your" and "you're".
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| | | |  rrw1313
Premium Member
join:2001-03-05
Taylor, PA
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rrw1313
Premium Member
2013-Jun-11 10:49 am
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry Aboutsaid by bdon78 because we aren't doing anything illegal or immoral and we consider the alternative of crazy people running around with bombs blowing up people to be a much scarier alternative.
Funny thing is this will do little if nothing to stop them. Calling another person to ask for cake(bomb) ingredients and finding out that oil(heating oil) and flour(ammonium nitrate) are a big part of the recipe is not gonna flag any call. You calling mom and bitching about the price of heating oil and asking what type of fertilizer to us on your flowers gets you flagged. | |
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to josephf
I hope they catch you doing something on the internet. Then we will see if you care if you're being watched. | |
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Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutI said "non-criminals".
Does "doing something on the internet" mean you are committing crimes online? Child porn? Phishing? Luring children? Well, then, this program would be great if it were used to apprehend such thugs. | |
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Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutWhat if you're searching for news on that information. Then due to lack of information they arrest you? | |
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| | |  Xioden
Premium Member
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY
kudos:1 |
to josephf
Well it's not being used for those purposes. | |
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| | | | bills
Premium Member
join:2000-08-19
China |
bills
Premium Member
2013-Jun-11 5:34 am
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry Aboutsaid by Xioden:Well it's not being used for those purposes.
And you know this how? Be careful of your answer.  | |
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| | | | | Xioden
Premium Member
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY
kudos:1 |
Xioden
Premium Member
2013-Jun-17 6:55 am
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutIf they were, they would be shouting their successes from the rooftops about how they broke up the child porn distribution rings and the evil evil criminals phishing for information. | |
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to Xioden
They're going to use it for whatever they want. If not today, then somewhere down the road. Our government doesn't work for us anymore...we work for them. And as long as we have our cable tv and video games, we don't really give a shit that our Constitutional rights have been thrown in the garbage. | |
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Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutI do. I was against the so-called Patriot Act and the invasion of Iraq long before everyone else was, and I saw myself and other people like me get those labels thrown at them anytime they posted their objections anywhere. I remember hearing that Bush wanted to invade Iraq, and I immediately thought "WTF? I thought they said bin Laden did this? Why are we going after Saddam now?"
But the thing that really made my blood run cold was when that idiot Bush announced to everyone, "You're either with us or the terrorists." So if I don't agree with the powers that be, that makes me a terrorist?
And just so you don't think I'm singling Bush out, I'm not happy that Obama is continuing down the same path that Bush started us on. I was hoping he'd know better. | |
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| | | | | | | |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Zoom 5341J
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KrK
Premium Member
2013-Jun-11 2:59 pm
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutWe are just a short step from "Patriot Tests" to ensure Loyalty to the Government (And all policies that they currently wish to support.)
Speak out against Government policies? The President? Congress? New laws? Well..... that would mean you're not a patriot, right?
And if you're not a patriot.... then well.... you're an enemy.... and that therefore means a criminal, maybe even a terrorist.....
Can't people see where this leads? | |
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| | | | | | | | |  JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA |
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry Aboutsaid by KrK:We are just a short step from "Patriot Tests" to ensure Loyalty to the Government (And all policies that they currently wish to support.)
Speak out against Government policies? The President? Congress? New laws? Well..... that would mean you're not a patriot, right?
And if you're not a patriot.... then well.... you're an enemy.... and that therefore means a criminal, maybe even a terrorist.....
Can't people see where this leads?
There are already a number of states that have "laws" on their books that try to say that non-christians can't serve in local government, in direct violation of the Constitution. Why wouldn't they piss on the Constitution by making loyalty oaths down the road? | |
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| |  tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:7 ·Xfinity
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to brianiscool
said by brianiscool:I hope they catch you doing something on the internet. That would imply he's doing something wrong. The truth is they can only penalize a small minority of the population, so it's like 2 guys running away from a bear, he doesn't have to outrun the bear...he just has to be less bad then you. | |
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some guy
Anon
2013-Jun-12 9:28 pm
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutHe doesn't have to do anything wrong, just speak out against the government. | |
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to josephf
This just makes me start trying even harder to find a position with a company outside the us and away from this nation. At this point I can not say I want to stay in this country and raise my children, who wants to stay in a country where they are basically just protecting the rich but not being up front about it. | |
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| |  guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:5 |
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutYou couldn't even get your wife to move 50 minutes from Boston to get out of the "geto" another country is just a bit further  | |
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Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry Aboutno she wouldn't mind moving out to where I plan on going | |
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| Arty50
Premium Member
join:2003-10-04 |
to josephf
You don't understand human nature very well, do you?
While I believe that most people are good, hard working people that generally will do no harm to fellow man and earn a living based solely on their own achievement, there are other people that aren't so blessed with morality. There are some people that will sell anyone down the river for penny; and there is no way to 100% guarantee that one or more people like this will never have access to this data.
Those people will use this data to threaten, blackmail, and crush their enemies.
"Oh look, you clicked on a link for XXX S&M Midget Porn with donkeys."
"That was an honest accident. It was a spoof email claiming someone had a question about my eBay posting."
"That's nice. But I have a physical piece of paper that shows you went to a XXX S&M midget pony show link. Good luck explaining that to your boss/the electorate/your shareholders."
Get the point? People will abuse this data. There's no getting around that. And generally, the people who are in power are more inclined to do this than anyone else. This is bad bad shit and it needs to be stopped. | |
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Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry Aboutsaid by Arty50:Those people will use this data to threaten, blackmail, and crush their enemies.
"Oh look, you clicked on a link for XXX S&M Midget Porn with donkeys." Yeah, and it was a total lie. One X at the most, the "midgets" were at least 5 feet tall and couldn't use a whip to save their lives, and no donkeys of any sort. What a rip off. | |
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| Xioden
Premium Member
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY
kudos:1 |
to josephf
1984 was a warning, not an instruction manual. The government seems to not have realized that.
We are no safer from being spied on by our own government than we are without, but unfortunately the masses have been brainwashed into the who "terrorism is alive and well and no one is safe ever" mantra.
Turkey is in the middle of what is essentially a civil war where turning a park into a shopping mall was the straw that broke the camels back. In the next decade or so we'll either be in the same situation, or we'll have just given up the illusion of still being a democracy entirely and officially be a totalitarian country. | |
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|  skeechanAi Otsukaholic
Premium Member
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 |
to josephf
Really? Ask those targeted by the IRS if they have nothing to worry about. If the IRS can pull that crap, you don't think the NSA could?
Everyone should fear this government. | |
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originalist
Anon
2013-Jun-10 7:31 pm
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutWell stated ... I don't understand why more of the proletariat do not make this simple connection. | |
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RalphWiggam
Anon
2013-Jun-13 6:49 am
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry Aboutsaid by originalist :Well stated ... I don't understand why more of the proletariat do not make this simple connection.
Because they're fat, lazy and Honey Boo-boo is a celebrity. Whatever the Kardashians have spread their legs for this week is more important than the fact that the government has gone farther than J. Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon could have ever DREAMED about in their wildest fantasies. | |
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to skeechan
said by skeechan:Really? Ask those targeted by the IRS if they have nothing to worry about. If the IRS can pull that crap, you don't think the NSA could?
Everyone should fear this government.
Absolutely. The argument that you should only worry if your a criminal is absolutely naive. Anybody can be made into a criminal given enough information presented out of context, which is what our government excels in. | |
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|  Cabal
Premium Member
join:2007-01-21 |
to josephf
They worked wonders in Boston, after all. | |
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| | skeechanAi Otsukaholic
Premium Member
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 |
to Cabal
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutNo kidding...all this data and the government is still beyond inept; couldn't stop those two Chechen Islamists even after the Russians did the work for them or Nadal Hassan who was on everyone's radar.
The President says we can't 100% privacy and 100% security...okay...but in reality we have 0% privacy and 0% security.
On top of all of this, the government at various levels has proven that it can't be trusted with the information they are collecting. For this we need look no further than the IRS. | |
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| etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
Dallas, TX
kudos:1  ·T-Mobile US
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to josephf
said by josephf:If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
With the surveillance we increase the likelihood of catching the bad guys. Especially the real bad guys. No one should be opposed to that.
Let's go a little bit further... how about using the IRS to audit everybody? Auditing everybody will increase the chances of catching the 'bad' guys. Non-criminals won't have anything to worry about. | |
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|  swintec
VIP
join:2003-12-19
Alfred, ME
kudos:5 |
to josephf
said by josephf:If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
That is a really poor opinion to have to be honest as they will simply continue to take more or more over the coming years. I really enjoyed this post on Reddit from a user who lives in a country where an extreme version of this type of stuff is happening. Keep in mind we wont get to this point under this idiot Obama and most likely not the next 1 or 2 guys but at the rate we are going it is a matter of a few years away. (boldness mine) "I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:
1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.
Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.
With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.
2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.
3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.
4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?"
"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.
Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.
You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.
This all happened in the country where I live.
You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.
Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?
You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?
Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?
I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.
I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no." | |
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| CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2 |
to josephf
So why not put some cameras around your house and stream them to the Internet? Surely if you have nothing to hide, this shouldn't concern you either. | |
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Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutIt's already been done, and it usually requires a Visa or Mastercard to view the good feeds.  | |
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|  michieruTrump is a terrorist
Premium Member
join:2009-07-25
Miami, FL
·Comcast Business..
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to josephf
Till something that was perfectly legal before and now isn't and you fall under that radar. It's very easy to say those words and have that much confidence in your representation considering they have been representing themselves since day one.
Law is not a static member but a dynamic one. So to sit there and say "If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you." you can be, and quite easily. Therefore you should always be worried. You are worried because nobody sits here and reads through every single law. Or the fact that if they sit on a milk crate in Florida you can be arrested.
The term "bad guy" is also dynamic.
It's also very easy to disguise actions for terrorism. When you have such a loose definition for it. Plus with the congress who can't balance a budget, a president who blames everyone else but himself. Do you really think giving them access to data will "not" be abused? In a perfect world which we do not live in this would work. However in practice you can bet everyone is screwed.
Just image if Mayor Bloomberg had his way. All the sudden you are throwing people in jail because they have 2 liter coke?
Hide your kids, hide your wife because shit just got real bro. | |
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| | JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA |
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutThe PATRIOT Act and anti-terrorism laws have already been abused. And this is just more abuse. They can claim all they want that these laws were approved and monitored by congress, clearly such a high bar to reach, at the end of the day, they violate the Constitution. And just because there are a bunch of people that are still ascared of the brown people 12 years after 911, doesn't make these "laws" any more legal.
"If it really is legal, the Obama administration should let the courts rule on it instead of shutting down cases with procedural claims of state secrets and national security exceptions." - Glenn Greenwald | |
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to josephf
said by josephf:If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
With the surveillance we increase the likelihood of catching the bad guys. Especially the real bad guys. No one should be opposed to that.
This is scary that people can be this naive. Come back to us when you've been on the wrong side of an investigation. Guilty or not. | |
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| | silbaco
Premium Member
join:2009-08-03
USA |
silbaco
Premium Member
2013-Jun-10 10:35 pm
Re: Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry AboutIt's what schools have been feeding kids for years now. "This new rule will help eliminate the unlikely chance that someone will bring a loaded squirt gun to school, but don't worry, as long as you don't break the rules it won't affect you." Our youth today have come to the conclusion that privacy is wrong, because someone might get hurt if we don't do everything we can to stop a terrorist attack. | |
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to josephf
said by josephf:If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
With the surveillance we increase the likelihood of catching the bad guys. Especially the real bad guys. No one should be opposed to that.
Good, you and Linklist can move-in to prison then... not for a crime, but since you like false feeling of being "safe" because some NSA jack-off is sitting in an office and listening/monitoring you. You both obviously are purely 100% benevolent citizens that have nothing to worry about and are OK with sacrificing your freedom for false sense of safety. So it is a win-win for you. I will be more than happy let those 56% to "opt-in" into your "safe" quarters as well. And let us, reckless, non-safety wanting wackos live without all seeing/hearing NSA protection. | |
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| Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT |
to josephf
said by josephf:If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you. Why do you close the door when you go to the bathroom? What do you have to hide? | |
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| ·Suddenlink
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to josephf
I can't believe this is still the argument used in support of this.. You do realize they aren't looking for illegal activity? They are watching your communications, your patters.. keeping tabs on your location .. No wonder this country is doomed.
This was in reply to the OP ... and anyone else who thinks this way.. | |
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| bnceo
join:2007-10-11
Bel Air, MD |
to josephf
If you aren't doing anything wrong, please gather up all your data and gladly sent it to the NSA. Don't try to impose your sick twisted destruction of the Constitution and our basic human rights on the rest of us. | |
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WinstonSmith to josephf
Anon
2013-Jun-10 9:23 pm
to josephf
If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
With the surveillance we increase the likelihood of catching the bad guys. Especially the real bad guys. No one should be opposed to that.
But you don't know that what is legal today won't be illegal tomorrow and you don't get to determine what is legal and what is not. Don't ever annoy any bureaucrat, they might decide to start an "investigation" of you based on a "hunch". And if you're a "suspect" you can be locked up forever without legal representation. Because you might be a "terrorist" (maybe, possibly). Maybe you should be tortured to find out for sure or maybe just be killed by a drone (as 4 Americans already have been).
What's that you say? You protest that you're a really a good guy and support the government unconditionally? Hmm, of course, what else would a terrorist say? And didn't some guy on the internet (in a thread just like this one) suggest that you might be a secret terrorist? We'd better not take any chances - and take you in for some "enhanced interrogation" and get at the truth.
And don't annoy anyone ever. You never know who might anonymously denounce you to get even with you or do so just to advance their own place within your gulag.
But, hey, you have nothing to hide, right? So you have no reason to be concerned. At least not now. That you know about. | |
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to josephf
said by josephf:If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
With the surveillance we increase the likelihood of catching the bad guys. Especially the real bad guys. No one should be opposed to that.
So you OK with Feds going through all your snail mail without warrant. Come into your home and search your things whenever they please. Its called guilty until proven innocent and that is not the American way. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. Ben Franklin paraphrased. | |
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|  firephotoWe the people
Premium Member
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA |
to josephf
said by josephf:If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
With the surveillance we increase the likelihood of catching the bad guys. Especially the real bad guys. No one should be opposed to that.
You and a friend come up with a revolutionary new thing. You discuss it over the phone, you work out details via email, keeping the details only between the two of you... and anyone who has access to NSA programs that can detect abnormal communications that get flagged for a closer look. Your idea is no longer a secret, it's obviously valuable to the peering eyes, and that information is passed on for a reasonable sum of money all without your knowledge. Now who is the one that is the criminal here? If access to this kind of information is never acknowledged then you have no legal standing to fight the loss of your idea that might be worth millions but somehow someone else with money has put the idea to market years before you ever could. Publicly traded companies with obligations to maximize profits have access to any US citizens personal information and communications with no oversight by the public or it's elected officials. They can skim all the good stuff before the date expires and leave no trace that the data was ever there for them to take in the first place. It's the perfect crime but this country in it's current state will never go after these criminals and put them behind bars. | |
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Polling MethodologiesIf you have concerns regarding the polling methodologies here, you should similarly have concerns regarding all polls you read about during election and non-election times. | |
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Re: Polling MethodologiesYou're bickering about "polling methodologies" yet you posted the preposterous comment: said by josephf:Non-Criminals Have Nothing To Worry About
If you're not breaking the law none of this should concern you. If you are, then we hope it concerns you.
With the surveillance we increase the likelihood of catching the bad guys. Especially the real bad guys. No one should be opposed to that. If you were serious, you have fallen for the greatest evil this world has ever known. The evil known as ignorance and complacency. Rearrange all the "polling methodologies" chairs you want on this sinking ship known as the USA (soon the United Security Agency) and you'll continue to be blinded by the approaching waters of totalitarianism that the NSA represents. Biased polling results? You ain't seen nothin' yet. How about everyone who attended the town hall meeting held by the political opponents of the state getting their cars towed on Election Day because of "clerical errors" in the unpaid parking tickets file? Or anyone who speaks out against the government has a close relative thrown in jail for trumped-up charges. Oh yes, they are innocent and will have their day in court. They'll eventually get their cars back, or get out of jail. After election day. After their names have been dragged through the mud. After the regime in power was easily re-elected, again, because the opponents of the state had low turnout at the election, again, because they got their cars towed on Election Day, or had to bail their grandmother out of jail for passing a bad check, even though she hasn't written a check since 1987 because of her Parkinson's. But those people weren't breaking the law so none of this concerned them. Until it was too late. | |
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josephf
Member
2013-Jun-17 11:55 am
Re: Polling MethodologiesPerhaps try moving to Ecuador. Out of the limelight and surely safer from Big Brother, no? Somewhere's gotta be good if the the goold 'ole USA no longer suits your needs. | |
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56% of AmericansNEED institutionalization, unfortunately, due to budget priorities, most mental institutions were closed years ago and they wander the streets taking polls. | |
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 seamore
Premium Member
join:2009-11-02 |
seamore
Premium Member
2013-Jun-10 6:16 pm
AS i have said in the other threadNo one really cares, and neither do i. | |
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 King PDon't blame me. I voted for Ron Paul
Premium Member
join:2004-11-17
Murfreesboro, TN |
King P
Premium Member
2013-Jun-10 6:22 pm
need MOAR GUBMNT!Let's keep blurring the lines until we have no protections at all.
PS - I can't believe I had to edit my subject because it wouldn't accept it in ALL CAPS? Nor would it accept multiple !!! at the end. | |
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panhead20
Anon
2013-Jun-10 6:48 pm
Plenty of Taxpayer money to spy on AmericansAlways plenty of money to fund the spy satellites, computer systems, wire taps, etc. to watch and listen to Americans. Sorry no money to repair the crumbling roads and bridges. Plenty of taxpayer money to provide security to government employees and building. Sorry no money for education or healthcare for the children.
Our government is living in FEAR and wants the American people to live in fear also. | |
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Aj916
Anon
2013-Jun-10 7:01 pm
SpyingIt's not right period. This is exactly why these parties need to go. They have a stranglehold on us. People need to stop voting for D or R they only seem different but they're not. I don't fit in either party. I'm conservative on some issues and liberal on some issues. What about the middle guy? | |
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 karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Signal Mountain, TN ·EPB Fiber Optics
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It's not a problem.. todayBut, what about the next guy? How would you feel if the high school dropouts who run homeland security ran your profile every time you entered the airport? You talked to someone overseas? Looks like it's time for a body cavity search for you. What about the IRS? What if the local police could pull up your profile based on you license plate? Oh, you were at a protest last year? Time to pull you over and arrest you for no good reason. The problem with these records, is that they are forever. I had my DNA taken when I went overseas to a war zone. I had no problem with that, if they needed to identify my body, they could. BUT, when I got back, after 2 years, it was all destroyed. That is well documented, and I knew what I was getting into. Having the government have access to the 'meta-data' of all my communications is NOT something I signed up for, and won't stand for it. I do 'trust' the government, to a degree. I DON'T trust the people in the government. It only takes 1 bad apple to spoil the whole batch. | |
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 ARGONAUTHave a nice day.
Premium Member
join:2006-01-24
New Albany, IN
kudos:1 |
ARGONAUT
Premium Member
2013-Jun-10 7:21 pm
It's Obvious.People born into Rights and Freedoms know nothing else. So, they don't place any value on those things.
It's no different than rich kids born into money and never thinking about not having money.. | |
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Re: It's Obvious.said by ARGONAUT:People born into Rights and Freedoms know nothing else. So, they don't place any value on those things.
It's no different than rich kids born into money and never thinking about not having money..
but you don't know what you got till it's gone... | |
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ProfFrink
Anon
2013-Jun-13 6:49 am
Re: It's Obvious.said by meeeeeeeeee:but you don't know what you got till it's gone...
Thank goodness the Turks stopped Erdogan before he paved paradise and put up a shopping mall. | |
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SunnyD
join:2009-03-20
Madison, AL |
SunnyD
Member
2013-Jun-10 7:28 pm
Not sure which 56% they polled...But it sure a hell wasn't any 56% of people I know. | |
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 GlennLouEarlThree brothers
Premium Member
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA |
If you believe in polls**.Governments create a culture which fosters terrorism. Then claim they need to "secretly" spy on everyone, everywhere to keep "us" safe. Talk about job security...
**I guess we'd all still be English subjects if it were up to 56% of US. | |
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 w0go.O
join:2001-08-30
Springfield, OR |
w0g
Member
2013-Jun-10 7:46 pm
I am telling you..56% percent of people are fox news viewers, who not only are dumb enough to support fox news, and the republicans, but they seem to always believe that government and corporate abuse isn't real, and they believe this crap that this is somehow done for their "safety" when it's really a massive conspiracy just to gain the publics approval to basically do whatever the fuck they want. this is what it is, nothing is really being done that's good with any of these programs, nothing has come out of it, nada. Nobody is safer, people are as dumb as ever, and everything is being done behind everyone's back because it wreaks of corruption and abuse. | |
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Re: I am telling you..Except 64% of Democrats think its ok, and 55% of independents. Other than that you're spot on. | |
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| | w0go.O
join:2001-08-30
Springfield, OR |
w0g
Member
2013-Jun-10 11:06 pm
Re: I am telling you..Okay, you got that, but still, maybe dems are pretty ignorant as well. I mean, lets just guess that, most of the population suffers from ignorance for some reason or another; the dems side is they are poorer and uneducated in one part of the spectrum, and just like to get taken care of and have everything provided to them, and the republican side is they are easily manipulated and will fall for any scare tactic, as long as Fox news or a republican started it. But really, the republican side is pretty organized, and they know how to get rewards and money out of the government or out of the system for themselves, that's almost always their agenda - being ignorant to stay rich and deny people services and opportunity. I feel pretty shitty about this, I mean most people don't seem to care that their rights are being stripped away, but it's likely because the government isn't transparent about what is going on. If they fully disclosed everything, I think people would be given a chance to understand, and perhaps be more upset about how far the government takes things. They tend to think the government is for or against them, but usually the government doesn't give a crap at all. They do what they want, and we're not told that all this spying and domestic monitoring is really just to control and abuse us with; very few things have ever been done to actually make the world a better place with it. Not a single thing, as far as I'm concerned. | |
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Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT |
Rekrul
Member
2013-Jun-10 8:20 pm
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davidhoffman
Premium Member
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:3 |
NSAThe NSA operations were targeted at the communications between non-USA citizens using overseas end points. They also monitored non-USA citizens communicating with USA citizens from overseas endpoints. Already legal for decades. The telephone number gathering is a new form of the old pen register technique from the analog telephone days. Again legal for decades. These revelations are about 60 year old operations updated for the internet and World Wide Web. If older people are shocked by this, then they have not been paying enough attention to the real news reporting and the true scholarly works about this subject for the past 30 years. The younger people would be ignorant about it because the older ones could not pass it on due to their ignorance. | |
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Re: NSAsaid by davidhoffman:The NSA operations were targeted at the communications between non-USA citizens using overseas end points.
Wrong. This program also collects phone records from U.S. citizens within the U.S., even if they calls were made from within the U.S and didn't travel abroad. quote:
They also monitored non-USA citizens communicating with USA citizens from overseas endpoints. Already legal for decades.
Wrong again. It is not legal for the military (NSA is DoD and thus a branch of the military) to spy on American citizens. This is made clear in the law. What happens is NSA goes to some judge in private, declares there is a national emergency, and gets the judge to sign-off on it. And if any outside party (like ACLU) tries to challenge it in court, the NSA will bring up the "no stake" defense, which means one cannot bring a lawsuit if they have no direct stake in it (i.e. weren't personally harmed). So essentially you need a plaintiff, and since these programs are literally classified at the highest levels, no one can claim they have been harmed. Thus there are no plaintiffs of which the ACLU can file a suit on the behalf. Indeed the ACLU has been trying for 5 years to bring suit against the government for these programs. They have not been allowed to bring it before a judge thus far. quote:
The telephone number gathering is a new form of the old pen register technique from the analog telephone days. Again legal for decades.
That in itself is concerning but not enough for me to be up in arms about. However, other whistleblowers like William Binney (who spent 40 years at NSA) says not only do they have the numbers, but they also have access to all the contents. This includes full access to all e-mail, all phone calls, and all Internet communications of any kind. They know what you've been searching on Google, Yahoo, and a dozen other search engines. Indeed they know more about you than your spouse does (I guarantee it). Binney says that roughly 280 million Americans have profiles in the NSA database. A few keystrokes and an analyst can bring up all of your personal information, photos, internet searches, facebook page (private or not), call records, etc. And as Snowden revealed, some analysts have full access to anything and can literally tap anyone anywhere at anytime for any reason. The NSA of old could only dream of such access. This is far beyond what they did in the days of ECHELON. quote:
These revelations are about 60 year old operations updated for the internet and World Wide Web. If older people are shocked by this, then they have not been paying enough attention to the real news reporting and the true scholarly works about this subject for the past 30 years. The younger people would be ignorant about it because the older ones could not pass it on due to their ignorance.
I don't think most of us who read these forums are shocked. I am sure most tech-savvy people knew this kind of thing was going on, especially after all the hoopla surrounding AT&T and the secret NSA spying rooms. But when you try to tell people about it they assume you are a conspiracy nut. So revelations from insiders like this most recent one help give wake-up calls to those still in doubt. | |
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| CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2 |
to davidhoffman
said by davidhoffman:The NSA operations were targeted at the communications between non-USA citizens using overseas end points. They also monitored non-USA citizens communicating with USA citizens from overseas endpoints. Already legal for decades. The telephone number gathering is a new form of the old pen register technique from the analog telephone days. Again legal for decades.
Sorry, both of these excuses are already proven wrong. The data collection was on every phone call made in the US... period. Not only the ones with overseas endpoints, ALL OF THEM. If you would stop defending the advancement of tyranny and actually research any of this for a few minutes you can read the actual top secret court order. If the collection of pen register data was already legal for decades then why the need for top secret FISA courts in the first place? Any federal court could have issued such an order and it wouldn't need to be secret. The ACTUAL reason is that it is only legal where the target is reasonably suspected of something... that is demonstrated to a judge... and a court order has been obtained; NOT for the wholesale and ongoing collection of every citizens' phone records. They are using a secret court to hide otherwise illegal activity. Both the FISA courts and the NSA need to be dismantled. They have clearly demonstrated an abuse of the powers granted to them and the whole system needs to be re-vamped from scratch and according to LAW. Not how much they can get away with but the intent of the law. | |
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BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
EARTH |
BiggA
Premium Member
2013-Jun-10 9:20 pm
It's not right, but......anyone who thought they weren't doing it is an idiot. I'm just waiting for the details to leak out about the sister program that uses speech to text algorithms on every phone call in the US and scans them for keywords and patterns in near real-time with machine learning capabilities. If we don't have it already, it's not far off. The only way to ensure that something is private is to have total control fo the encryption end to end, and that's what the bad guys are going to do, at least the sophisticated ones. The dumb ones will still be caught. | |
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joe1
Anon
2013-Jun-10 9:59 pm
Poll is BSThis is BS... NOBODY I know is OK with this spying regardless of party affiliation. THEY BETTER GET PRISON FOR PRISM!!! | |
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Nice work USMakes me feel right at home as in the Soviet Union ages ago. A shame for all the Americans that died for us to have the freedoms we are so eager to give away.
The president should be impeached for trashing the Constitution along with each member of Congress and Senate that is for this abuse of power.
I hope you guys wake up before it is too late. You should be ashamed of yourselves for giving into tyranny without the slightest whimper.
Yeah, I voted Democrat although I am a registered Republican. Both "parties" suck being on the payroll of the same corporations.
Impeach the crooks that did this and throw into jail their supporters. | |
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cbobby
join:2009-06-14
New Windsor, MD |
cbobby
Member
2013-Jun-11 12:29 am
56% of Americans"""""About the Survey The analysis in this report is based on telephone interviews conducted June 6-9, 2013, among a national sample of 1,004 adults 18 years of age or older living in the continental United States (501 respondents were interviewed on a landline telephone, and 503 were interviewed on a cell phone, including 247 who had no landline telephone). The survey was conducted by interviewers at Princeton Data Source under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International. """" » www.people-press.org/201 ··· -tactic/ | |
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 pnjunctionTeksavvy Extreme
Premium Member
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1 |
WeakSo all it takes is a few nutjobs to flagrantly flush the US constitution and have people lapping it up. So weak.
Well I suppose if you subscribe to "they hate us for our freedoms", keep going on this path and maybe they'll hate you less. | |
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| KearnstdSpace Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:2 |
Kearnstd
Premium Member
2013-Jun-11 2:47 am
Re: WeakMost people do not give a shit as long as they can watch their Survivor, American Idol and Jersey Shore. | |
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