  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Tethering charges are BS If you have a cap, and pay overages, it shouldn't matter one bit how you choose to use your data.
Charging extra for tethering is just an extra fee to make more profit, period.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 | | | Re: Tethering charges are BS said by KrK:If you have a cap, and pay overages, it shouldn't matter one bit how you choose to use your data. Charging extra for tethering is just an extra fee to make more profit, period. You do realize that if an application acts like ICS in any form - the carrier can NOT EVER know how much data you actually tethered. This is due to the fact the data comes from the data connection on the phone and not a separate connection. Verizon tried to "patch" ICS on WM devices, but that obviously didn't last long before someone figured out how to "un-patch" ICS.
AT&T wanted me to pay for a tethering plan - for using ICS. So my question to AT&T - how do you know how much data I am actually using if I use ICS? | |
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| |  dib22
join:2002-01-27
Kansas City, MO
kudos:2 | Re: Tethering charges are BS they could snoop on the packets and examine them for signatures that pc based applications use...
but they would never snoop through our data now would they? | |
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| | | | I don't understand your point.
Data is data. With AT&T you could be unlimited, 2GB, or 200MB.
Why does it matter how you used that data? Whether it is tethered or not, it's still the same data plan. But it costs $20 more to use the same data through tethering?
I see your point that they don't know how much you tethered, but why would that matter? It's still data that you are already paying for. So they charge you more to use the same exact data? | |
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| | | | | Re: Tethering charges are BS said by skuv :
I don't understand your point.
Data is data. With AT&T you could be unlimited, 2GB, or 200MB.
Why does it matter how you used that data? Whether it is tethered or not, it's still the same data plan. But it costs $20 more to use the same data through tethering?
I see your point that they don't know how much you tethered, but why would that matter? It's still data that you are already paying for. So they charge you more to use the same exact data?
I think you see my point. AT&T wanted me to pay for a service that I wouldn't even use. | |
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| | | | I'm not sure where you are getting this ICS analogy, but AT&T does know how much data you use if you tether. It shows up in your monthly account statement, regardless of what is or isn't connected to the phone.
Data is data. It comes and goes to and from the phone. They know it's there. They measure it.
Verizon's problems measuring data, whatever they are, do not apply to AT&T. | |
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| | | | | Re: Tethering charges are BS said by ruraltn:I'm not sure where you are getting this ICS analogy, but AT&T does know how much data you use if you tether. It shows up in your monthly account statement, regardless of what is or isn't connected to the phone. Data is data. It comes and goes to and from the phone. They know it's there. They measure it. Verizon's problems measuring data, whatever they are, do not apply to AT&T. I see we need a little networking 101.
So, ICS is short for Internet Connection Sharing (if you already haven't figured that out).
What does it do exactly? Take your home router, it is a physical representation of ICS. Take a look at the IP address of your computer that is plugged into the router, then goto some site like whatismyip.com. Notice they are different. Why is that? The router is performing what is called NAT (or Network Address Translation). What happens is that when you send a packet out from your computer it has a source and destination. The source will be the IP address of your computer, however, since that is a private IP it is not routable on the internet. So, your router changes the source to the IP address that was given to it by your ISP and sends it off. Now, the packet is routable and can get back to you. However, when the packet comes back the router changes the destination to the private IP of your computer and sends it on its way.
Now, with that said - put 5 computers behind the router, does any device on the otherside of the router know if the data came from your PC or the router (outside of course cookies or other tracking software)? Absolutely not. The outside world sees only a single device, your router, or in this case the phone. The outside world sees data coming from your device but will not, and will NEVER know if it was generated from the router, or your phone, or a device on a private network because the data's source IP address is changed before it hits the internet.
So, no, AT&T does NOT know how much data you actually tethered if you use a system similar to ICS. When I used ICS the data showed up as normal data and charged as such, which it should be because without a system like DPI (Deep packet inspection), you can NOT know about any devices on a private net from the ISP's point of view. This is due to the fact that the data simply isn't routable on the internet so the router, or ICS, will change the source address and AT&T will just say "oh, another packet from your phone".
Now....
Of course AT&T doesn't want you to use ICS for this very reason.
Instead AT&T wants you to install their software (red flag #1), and/or dial some number (red flag #2) instead of easily using ICS.
Source: »www.wireless.att.com/answer-cent···=KB64519 | |
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| | | | | | Re: Tethering charges are BS said by k1ll3rdr4g0n:I see we need a little networking 101. ......
Snip the rest of the garbage lecture.
You need a little reading comprehension 101. I said AT&T knows how much data you use if you tether. That is not the same thing as saying they know how much of it is from tethering and how much is from non-tethered use of the phone.
Bottom line, if you tether, the data is not mysteriously hidden from them, as you imply. If they want to know if, or suspect you are tethering, they can deduce that by examining the data stream. Data to and from tethered devices will not have the same characteristics as data solely to and from the phone. Whether they actually make that effort will be driven by internal policy questions/decisions that turn on law, public relations, and cost benefit ratios.
In other words, corporate self interest will dictate if they really care if someone is tethering surreptitiously or not. | |
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| | | | | | | Re: Tethering charges are BS said by ruraltn:said by k1ll3rdr4g0n:I see we need a little networking 101. ...... Snip the rest of the garbage lecture. You need a little reading comprehension 101. I said AT&T knows how much data you use if you tether. That is not the same thing as saying they know how much of it is from tethering and how much is from non-tethered use of the phone. -snip- This sentence is wrong no matter how you phrase it. If you read my post (which seems like you didn't) you would understand that AT&T has NO IDEA HOW MUCH DATA YOU TETHER if you use a system like ICS. To AT&T on their counters its just data from the phone, so if you used ICS and purchased a tethering plan your montly usage would always show 0, period. Since, there is no way for AT&T to know if the data from your phone was requested from a PC or your mobile (well any evidence that can be upheld in court that is). | |
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 JeffreyWilpon please sell the MetsPremium
join:2002-12-24
Long Island
kudos:3 |  Love it
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| | | Re: Love it me too.great job and shows how greedy these large corps are.
i am glad i do not own a smartphone !!! | |
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| | Synbios
join:2002-05-18
Arlington, VA | Re: Love it said by gorehound:me too.great job and shows how greedy these large corps are. i am glad i do not own a smartphone !!! rephrase: I am glad I do not own an iphone!!! | |
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|  JamesonPremium
join:2004-05-28
Fallbrook, CA
kudos:1 | said by Jeffrey:This sort of stuff I love to see. Kudos to the kid. Have to agree, awesome kid. | |
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| | | I hope he made some good money! | |
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| | Lack of understanding The kids today are pretty smart and will find ways to circumvent issues like this one. Many of these kids grew up in the video and computer age. A 15-year-old with no summer job and so much time in their hands. What do you think they will do?
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Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian. Robert Orben
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| KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: Lack of understanding and he made some bucks for it, so not totally unproductive.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| | | | | Re: Lack of understanding so apple is stealing from him? if they don't pay him they better give a refund to the people who did pay. | |
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| | | |  ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | Re: Lack of understanding said by John McClane:so apple is stealing from him? if they don't pay him they better give a refund to the people who did pay. Apple only bills for app purchases about once per week. So I doubt any customers will even be billed for the app.
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Are you happy with your rep in Washington, DC? | |
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| | | | | Reviews:
 ·Shaw
| Re: Lack of understanding said by ThrowDemsOut:said by John McClane:so apple is stealing from him? if they don't pay him they better give a refund to the people who did pay. Apple only bills for app purchases about once per week. So I doubt any customers will even be billed for the app. Thats a crock of crap, I'm billed instantly when I buy an app on my CC. | |
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| | | | | | ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | Re: Lack of understanding said by pkarlos_76:said by ThrowDemsOut:said by John McClane:so apple is stealing from him? if they don't pay him they better give a refund to the people who did pay. Apple only bills for app purchases about once per week. So I doubt any customers will even be billed for the app. Thats a crock of crap, I'm billed instantly when I buy an app on my CC. Too bad for you. I get billed once a week for app buys on my iPad.
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Are you happy with your rep in Washington, DC? | |
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| | | | | | |  ff1324Everybody Goes HomePremium
join:2002-08-24
On Four Day | Re: Lack of understanding You get a receipt once a week. My CC shows an auth shortly after buying an app...
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My rants get raves. | |
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|  SnakeoilIgnore Button. The coward's feature.Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1 | Trade a cell for for a Porsche. That was one cool cusomer. It took him 2 years to do it, but he got his porsche. | |
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| |  P NessYou'Ve Forgotten 9-11 AlreadyPremium
join:2001-08-29
way way out | Re: Lack of understanding said by Snakeoil:Trade a cell for for a Porsche. That was one cool cusomer. It took him 2 years to do it, but he got his porsche. he actually traded a bronco for a porsche worth 7,000 if you read the whole story.
not really a deal since they said the bronco was worth more
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| | | SnakeoilIgnore Button. The coward's feature.Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1 | Re: Lack of understanding The start of the series of trades was a cell phone. The end of the trades was when he got the car. Which he is looking to trade for another vehicle due to the cost of repairs. | |
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| | | What do you think they will do?
In the words of the Brain... "Same thing they do every night Pinky....try to take over the World!!! (or at least apples world of apps!) "
(Animaniacs Pinky and the Brain)
PS: Good job kid! | |
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| | | said by Boricua65:The kids today are pretty smart and will find ways to circumvent issues like this one. Many of these kids grew up in the video and computer age. A 15-year-old with no summer job and so much time in their hands. What do you think they will do? apple can lock you out of being a app dev and keep the $99 you payed. | |
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| ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA | Maybe one of these enterprising youths could create a social networking app that tracks the movement of corporate CEOs in real-time. Oh, the possibilities... | |
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| | I learned to program... The teenager + free time thing is right!
I learned to program when I got my first cellphone when I was 16. I didn't want to pay for ringtones, so I convinced the sales guy to give me one ringtone free and free internet for a month. I reverse engineered their ringtone delivery software so that I could upload my own tones for free. In the most recent version I wrote software that would allow me to upload an mp3 from my webbrowser, then send my Motorola Razr a text message with a link that would download an automatically compressed and suitably formatted ringtone to the phone without charge.
My Canadian cellphone company tried to rip me off, I found a way to beat them on this one little issue and save myself some money. | |
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|  banditws6Shrinking Time and DistancePremium
join:2001-08-18
Frisco, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: I learned to program... It seems like the teenage years are when most of us gearheads teach ourselves the life skills that we'll need for our careers, while high school is busy wasting most of our time. 
It was during those years that I parlayed my traditional art skills into computer-based graphic design and started doing design jobs for people around town (flyers, restaurant menus, concert programs, etc.).
(I also played a whooooole lot of Doom and Duke Nukem 3D, but don't tell anyone.)
Last night I saw the news about this tethering app masquerading as a flashlight and thought about grabbing it -- since I knew it was gonna be pulled within hours -- but didn't bother. It did bring a smile to my face, however. Yes, it's a violation of AT&T's (and Apple's, but for different reasons) terms of service, but in my opinion the extra charge to tether despite being subjected to the same data cap is asinine and unjustifiable -- so I am enjoying the press the kid's getting for his efforts.
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"I'll follow the law until it's just stupid." -Ted Nugent | |
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| ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA | Well done!! | |
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 Noah VailSon made my AvatarPremium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:1 | Bucking the Overlords on behalf of the Small Guy. Stories like this help restore my faith in America's Youth.
NV | |
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|  camaro92Question everythingPremium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA | Re: Bucking the Overlords on behalf of the Small Guy. Totally agree i thought there generation was lost, pretty funny a 15 year old outsmarts a multibillion dollor corp. by changing the name of the app. | |
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 Z80APremium
join:2009-11-23
1 edit | Got in before the pull 99 cents and works like a champ | |
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|  DestBoloPremium
join:2000-03-21
Naperville, IL | Re: Got in before the pull wonder if Apple will do a remote kill switch on this | |
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| | Z80APremium
join:2009-11-23 | Re: Got in before the pull They didn't kill off netshare. You just can't redownload it. | |
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| | mattt7
join:2010-01-30
Indiana, PA | They don't have a "remote kill switch". But they can patch or stop the app from doing what it's doing with a firmware update. | |
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| | | Z80APremium
join:2009-11-23 Reviews:
·Cox HSI
| Re: Got in before the pull They absolutely have a remote kill switch, Jobs himself admitted as much.
said by Teh Steve :
Hopefully we never have to pull that lever, but we would be irresponsible not to have a lever like that to pull,
»www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/3···tch.html
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"Our goal (was to make) a billion phones Flash-enabled by 2010...We're actually going to get 1 billion Flash-enabled phones by 2009." -Adobe Chief Technology Officer Kevin Lynch in Nov 2008. | |
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| | good for the kid that shows how good apple is and how at&t needs to update there stuff like severs and copper lines hint hint. and for that 15 year old i send you kudos and he should get off scott free because he showed a security issue i rest my case | |
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 nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:5 | Too late. I never find out about this kind of good stuff until it's too late. I wonder if we can look forward to seeing this app in cydia? $.99 compared to $9.99 for MyWi is a big difference. | |
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| | So what's Apple gonna do now? Sue the kid, send the cops to his house and tear it up like they did the Gizzhead who found the iPhone prototype?
Charging extra for tethering is an absolutely putrid business practice, but with the exception of T-Mobile, (which is a German-held Company) all of the American telcos do it. The Europeans and Asians, on the other hand, don't. Which to a large extent, may explain T-Mobile's retisence to charge for it.
There are ethical and business interests possibly at issue here, (like those nasty Protectionist Corporatisms like TOS Violations and Theft of Service..puke) but like the OP said, Kudos to this kid. Slicker than mucus on a wet dolphin's back. | |
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| axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | Re: So what's Apple gonna do now? Revoke his development access, and never publish any of his apps again. It may suck for him, if he were trying to make a business of selling iPhone apps. But, he did the right thing  | |
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| | | | Re: So what's Apple gonna do now? martyr is he | |
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| | Nazi computing at it's best! Nazi computing at it's best! | |
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chimera
join:2009-06-09
Washington, DC Reviews:
·Comcast
| Every Silver Lining has a Cloud What concerns me about this is it means that Apple is most likely not doing a deep code review of apps coming into the store. If this is the case then it wouldn't be too tricky for malware writers to game the system in exactly this manner to sneak in sleeper apps which install malicious content on iPhones after a certain seed period.
The argument that a walled garden improves security falls apart once you stop having competent people inspecting the contents being let into the garden. Apple's ability to remotely wipe applications would still be a solid defense and likewise the $100 developer fee would also prove an effective barrier to entry, but if a 15 year old could get a developer license it can't require much more than money to do so. | |
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| rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Re: Every Silver Lining has a Cloud Regarding remote wipe: That assumes Apple's control of the iPhone is sufficiently protected and not vulnerable to the infection. If not, first thin an infection should do is wipe out Apple's ability to manage the device. If Apple is smart, this area of the iOS is protected and read only so that an infection cannot disable it. | |
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| | It really shouldn't matter & at&t should be happy people want to tether at this point. It'll make their customers reach that cap much faster & fill the coffers as they've wished, all along.  | |
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 mjmsrPremium
join:2001-08-25
Lombard, IL | I HAD it and deleted it! I had that app and thought it was quite silly so I deleted it...not in my iTunes any more....
dog gone it! | |
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| | genius Smart kid, he would be good to replace Randall Stevenson and run AT&T. | |
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| | | Re: genius LOL Replace Randall Stephenson...I'd love to see what he would do to the pricing on AT&T data plans )) Free tethering, unlimited data for peanuts, no more walled garden, wheeee!!!!
But he'd probably make a better programmer than CEO. | |
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stridr69
join:2003-05-19
San Luis Obispo, CA | Stick it to the "Man" Glad to see it's still alive and well.
Nice job, kid.
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 NickDPremium
join:2000-11-17
Princeton Junction, NJ | Jailbreak There will be a jailbreak for iPhone 4 released in a few weeks. | |
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| | LOL Another reason to get a DROID phone and screw apple | |
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 SlickEnWPremium
join:2003-01-21
Seattle, WA | got in on it looks great
If this guy gets in trouble by Apple, i'll send him $2 for lawyer fees. I'd rather pay him than ATT AND lose my unlimited data. | |
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Reviews:
·Charter
| But I thought I though the app store business model was to prevent people from running unapproved or malicious code on their machines, if apple didnt catch this how many of you are walking around with unactivated malware or spyware?
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Fed Up With Stupidity?
Patentlystupid.com | |
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