 
Ray
Mahnahmahna
Premium
join:2001-04-02
Mesa, AZ
|  No Class
Yet another abuse of the DMCA (Digital Millennium Castration Act) to suppress free speech.
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I meant to do that. | |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs: 
| Re: No Class Yeah, it would seem as yet another abuse contributable to overzealous attitudes of recent memory. (9/11, etc.)
But I agree that if they don't want their practices scrutinized, then they should be practicing them.
The Catholic Church has existed much longer and it is not without unscrupulous members, and has been subject to criticism as much as it has been subject to support, as well.
We could argue that point for just about every religion that exists today.
It's fair game, and if it can be proven that illegal activities take place in the practice of the religion, or by people associated with the religion but not necessarily in the practice of it, then these people should pay the price.
If these religions have questionable, possibly fraudulent or illegal tactics, then it should be brought to light.
I don't think it's any coincidence though that these Scientologists target actors and actresses, musicians, etc., for inclusion, because-
1. They are mostly devout liberals,
2. They have lots of cash, and
3. The principles of Scientology agree with aspects of
personal behaviours and attitudes that other churches
or religions would not endorse.
That's just my opinion.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... | |
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Ray
Mahnahmahna
Premium
join:2001-04-02
Mesa, AZ | Re: No Class I didn't say what they did was illegal, just questionable! Exactly what is "fair use"?
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I meant to do that. | |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs: | Re: No Class Pay closer attention. I said fair game, not "fair use". | |
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Ray
Mahnahmahna
Premium
join:2001-04-02
Mesa, AZ
| Re: No Class The "fair use" wasn't in reference to your post, it was meant as the basis for the copyright infringement charges. Exactly how much can you paste onto your website before fair use becomes a copyright violation?
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I meant to do that. | |
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wolfvgang
@swbell.ne | Re: Fair Game Ha ha ha! "Fair Game" is a great choice of words...visit Xenu.Com and see how L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of the Church of Scientology used the phrase fair game...it's scary stuff. | |
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Doctor Four
My other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX
 ·AT&T U-Verse
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·AT&T Yahoo
edited
| Re: Fair Game There actually is a tactic used by the "Church" of
$cientology that goes by this name. It involves using
the Court system to silence any of their critics. In
doing so, they are violating others' 1st Amendment rights.
This organization, described as crackpots, idiotic, and
other similar epithets is by definition a religious cult,
and one of the accusations levelled at them is that they
exert mind control over their participants. On the Web,
they've used SLAPP lawsuits and now the DMCA to censor
their critics, and in an extreme case of what can only
be called body snatching, they shut down and took over
the Cult Awareness Network's website - it is now manned
by $cientologists. Yet another accusation directed at
them is that they are scamming people out of their
money. In some countries, most notably Germany, the group's
members have been arrested and the practice outright
banned. The A&E Cable TV network did a 2 hour investigative
report on $cientology: a lot of this information came from
that investigation, with the help of ex-$cientologists
and critics alike. The A&E program was called Investigative
Reports: Inside Scientology, and the video can be ordered
from their website
(for anyone who is interested).
--
"Kayura or Badamon, whichever you are, you should know that I will never give up this battle. By the will of the Ancient, I shall succeed!" - Shuten (Anubis) from the Ronin Warriors.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 18:31:38] | |
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jhudson2
Copyright Martyr
join:2000-11-07
San Marcos, CA
| I know there are lots of famous high-profile Catholic liberals and Protestant liberals and Jewish liberals and Muslim liberals and maybe some Hindu liberals and certainly at least one Buddhist liberal. But I'm sure they just pay lip service to aspects of personal behavior and attitudes that their respective religions endorse.
Cause they're liberals ya know. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: No Class Unlike Conservatives, who are all perfect, all knowing, and never do anything wrong. Ever. Until they get caught.
BTW Wasn't Jesus called a liberal... a radical... oh yes, in fact he WAS, wasn't he... | |
| | | | | finortis
join:2001-11-30
| Re: No Class And Richard Nixon (who not only got impeachment charges brought against him for Watergate, but also for abusing the IRS tax auditing system to "deal with" "political enemies" was just as much a conservative as Ted Kennedy was a liberal. And in the end, I wouldn't view either as better... And does anyone know be it the party affiliation, or whether Hoover would have classified himself as a conservative or liberal? With people like Hoover though, it little matters either way. Cointelpro was still Cointelpro, and his dealings were exactly what they were.... | |
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Anubis Prime
join:2001-06-01
Pittsburgh, PA | This is what happens when you believe that the Psychlos are coming to destroy us all in the year 3000. | |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| I am not defending Scientologists or any other religion.
As a matter of fact, I was pointing out how dishonest and unscrupulous many within various religions can be.
There are many more who practice "legitimate" religions that are not this way.
All I was saying though is that is premature to dismiss all religion as bringing some good to people just because of the actions of a few people or by the philosophies of some otherwise far-out religions.
All of us have had some good points. I see many of them.
I agree that some religions are excuses to take advantage of the weak-minded, the gullible, the rich, etc.
But the God I believe in ain't short of cash, mister.
Another point of note I made is that of agreement with the original poster of this thread....if they can't take criticism of their religion or otherwise explain it away, then it is not much of a credible "religion" at all, but could be spawns of other motivations, such as money, power, etc., in much the same ways that the most murderous leaders of our times have used religion to justify their actions and direction.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... | |
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Anubis Prime
join:2001-06-01
Pittsburgh, PA
·Comcast
| Re: No Class But...uhh...
I know how the '3 in 1' Jesus/Christian thing is unbelievable to some (especially the Phoenicians), but Hubbard said that Xenu, an evil intergalactic ruler banished humans to Earth 75,000,000 years ago, and that he (Hubbard) discovered 'implants' that were placed in humans (being nothing but bundles of intergalactic spirits) to track us, and that there is still some alien being imprisoned in a mountain on Earth somewhere.
Hell I could write a couple of Star Trek novels, and then claim that I had been contacted by "Kronax, the god of small electronics and handheld devices".
It's not an argument about religion. When the scientologists want to promote mainstream acceptance, they refer to it as 'a philosophy'...other times it's a 'religion'.
Do a search online and you will find people harassed, stalked and litigated. | |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| Re: No Class Yeah, you could.
I agree with you that "philosophies" or "religions" can be taken out of context, used as motivation to justify murder, etc.
This is an argument about religion. It's a matter of what you choose to believe.
If you want to be Christian, fine....Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Branch Davidian, whatever....it's all fine. You have that choice. If you think Scientology is a religion and you want to belong to that, fine....
But, I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them.
Oral Roberts said, "I saw a 900 foot Jesus in Tulsa, Oklahoma". His nurse said, "take your medicine, Mr. Roberts."
Some other TV evangelist (I had a brain-fart at the moment and can't remember the name), said that unless the could raise a million bucks in thirty days, that God would kill him (this was probably 5-7 years ago, and some of you posters may remember the incident I recall here), and he is *STILL* here....
It demonstrates that unscrupulous people have used religion to take advantage of others also, for purposes of money and power, and this has happened for as long as religion has existed, which has been pretty much since the dawn of man.
Like I said, believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... | |
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SAM Hunter$
join:2001-05-11
USA
| Re: No Class said by BrianDamage:
If you want to be Christian, fine....Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Branch Davidian, whatever....it's all fine. You have that choice. If you think Scientology is a religion and you want to belong to that, fine....
But, I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them.
You are being illogical. Just substitute "religion" with "conservative", "liberal", "NAACP", "NRA", "ACLU", "Democrat", "Republican" and so on. The same could be said for all of them as well as any other group. They all have a core set of values and beliefs but on an individual basis there are a lot of members and even representatives that have those negative beliefs and attitudes you speak about. Therefore you could not belong to any of those groups or any other group for that matter. Hypocrisy is an equal opportunity emotion and attitude. | |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| Re: No Class I thought we were talking about religion here.
"Substitute" this for that....okay, I can do that. I will address what you said.
I agree, hypocrisy exists in those areas you mentioned also. No doubt.
The Kennedy family is a perfect example of it. The NAACP is a good example of it...so is the ACLU, the political parties, and so on.
However, what do the core values of most of the parties mentioned have in common as a basis for their direction? Religion, in one form or another.
What has the present administration been talking about so much since Mr. Bush took office?
What has this war with Afghanistan meant for people? For most, it has religious significance. Some say that this is the US war against Islam, said by some to justify further terrorist acts against US targets and spur further US resentment of their actions....The US has waged a campaign to dispel these rumors that it is NOT a war against Islam, but of terrorism.
Yes, in the US, we are discriminately tolerant. What I mean is, we are tolerant when it suits us.
It is the same in this instance. It just so happens that this war and its' consequences are the most visible in the media today.
When you break this situation down to its' basic level, it is about religion. The Taliban and Al Quada used Islam as reason for what they perpetrated against us.
We use Christianity to justify our responses.
Our government is based on Christian principles, just as many Arab country's government are based on Muslim principles, and they are equally credited with political influence.
Many of those other groups of which you speak are the same.
The logic is to realize how religion has affected the operation as well as the creation and administration of government over the course of our history.
Anyone that says there is a bigger influence than religion in the formation of governments is ignoring the basic significance of their creation.
I would like for someone to point out more governments based on principles that don't have a basis in religious conviction than governments that do-
But I don't think anyone can.
That's my point....it's the underlying religious significance that brings the most to bear on an individual government's (and other groups, like the ones mentioned) ideaology and direction.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... | |
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SAM Hunter$
join:2001-05-11
USA
edited
| Re: No Class You miss the point.
You said that you can't belong to any religion because... "I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them."
The exact same thing you've said about religion is true about all organizations to various degrees with regards to chapters, individuals, certain representatives and so on. Everyone of them have people or representatives, (no matter how few or non-representative of the majority) who "perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder." Therefore, you couldn't belong to anything like the NRA, ACLU, Masons, NAACP, etc.
Your standards are unreasonable and the basis for your conclusion is illogical because of reasons I've stated. By your logic and standard religion is no different than any other organization in the context of those attitudes and hypocrisy they perpetuate at some level.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-27 17:23:31] | |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| Re: No Class I will concede that to "varying degrees" like you describe, that these problems exist on other levels. I don't remember ever having dismissed that.
But, they are as not as significant as is religion in its' base forms, however.
A lot of organizations, individuals, chapters, etc., that you describe base their philosophies and by-laws, etc., on laws that are otherwise founded in religious principles.
My most poignant point is that out of all reasons people may have to do what they do, justify their actions, and legitimize their philosophy(ies), etc., they all mostly have a basis in some religious belief or another.
Sinn Fein did what they did out of religious belief. The PLO do what they do out of religious belief. The Israelis and the Jews do what they do out of religious belief. UBL, AlQuada, and the Taliban do what they do out of religious belief. We do what we do out of religious belief. These are all obviously recent examples. I could go on.
That's my point.
I also believe though that many religions of today have been horribly perverted from their original intents. Islam is a good example of this. Guys like Mullah Mohammed OMar and Usama bin Laden have twisted the Muslim religion to suit their own ends, just as many others have. Yassar Arafat, Benjamin Netanyahu, Saddam Hussein, and even Ariel Sharon are guilty of this, in my opinion.
That's a whole other rant. But I hope you see what I am trying to point out here.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... | |
| | | c0mmander
join:2001-10-03 | Re: Church members guess scientologists arent much for technology... | |
| | 
mags2
Agent Provocateur
join:2001-07-19
SoCal
edited
| Whatever gets you thru the day, I guess. "Religion" has always been a concept for the weak-willed/weak minded anyway. Even "Scientology." /flame off
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 10:13:14] | |
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DaSneaky1D
Tell me, where is your father?
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou | Re: Church members Now was that comment really necessary? | |
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mags2
Agent Provocateur
join:2001-07-19
SoCal
edited
| Re: Church members
Now was that comment really necessary?
Unfortunately, the truth always hurts. If you cannot accept someone else's opinion, then perhaps you ought to reconsider reading this particular forum. After all, you are in charge of your life and I'm not holding a shotgun to your head forcing you to read it.
--
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 10:20:25] | |
| | | | | | | | | DannyBoy
join:2000-11-29
Malabar, FL
edited
| Re: Church members Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:05:11] | |
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nc1165
join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL
|  Re: Church members
The forum mods should consider removing this thread.
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood. | |
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Anonymous Dude
@rtviz.com
| Re: Church members Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years. | |
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nc1165
join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL
| Re: Church members said by Anonymous Dude:
Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years.
The God given right to take the land at whatever cost, including the intentional spread of small pox among Native Americans, is what I am referring to. And as far as Communists are concerned, I've never known a single communist to strike out in the name and will of God to justify his heinous crimes. Despots and dictators are practically duty-bound to kill. That's why they are called despots and dictators. Religious leaders, OTOH, are bound to honor their religion and killing should be the last thing on their mind. They are held to a higher standard and should not be invoking the name of God to justify their crimes, which makes their being committed doubly horrible when compared with those crimes committed by people who proclaim no religion at all.
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood. | |
| | | | | | | | | finortis
join:2001-11-30
| Re: Church members Then one can throw in the "divine right of kings" and all that could lead too....
But as to Hitler and the Nazis, lets see the Swatsticka, where I have seen that before (not in Nazi Germany), but it's symbolic meaning....the origins of much of the symbology used. If some were right the Io Hitler might have had religious significance, and that there were those in the Nazi party practitioners of "black magic"... I won't state it is or isn't so as such, but if one were to look for the history of some of the symbology and the like, they might find something of interest in seeing what preceded some of what was presented.... | |
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ewwww
@pacbell.n
| You want to know what it's like to BE a scientologist? How do they rationalize their actions?
I bet you that in the past 80 years capitalists have killed more than communists.
FDR
Truman
Eisenhower
JFK
LBJ
Nixon
Reagan
GB sr.
Clinton
GB jr.
Those are just some of the big american ones. Each have thousands of deaths in their name. Some have hundreds of thousands or more. As Americans, we love conflict, but we need to justify it with some moral conviction. We have so much faith that we're right that these killings don't even factor into our discussions of political deaths. I'm sure, as they read down the list, most people were already rationalizing what each of those men did. That's what faith does.
This is how people can join organizations like the scientologists. When you get brainwashed, how will you know whether you're really thinking or just rationalizing your faith. | |
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Eatmeingreek
Gentard
join:2001-06-29
San Francisco, CA
| Re: Church members said by ewwww:
I bet you that in the past 80 years capitalists have killed more than communists...Those are just some of the big american ones. Each have thousands of deaths in their name. Some have hundreds of thousands or more.
Stalin alone killed 10 million of his own people. You lose.
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What the hell are we supposed to use, man? Harsh language? - Private Frost, from the movie Aliens | |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| Some of what you say is accurate, some not. Do you even know who Pol Pot is, or did you just happen to hear AL Franken mention him when he addressed the NPC?
No matter. We could debate motivations all day of the people you mentioned. But, yes, some of them had some religious motivations.
Hitler- Christian "Aryan" supremacy, son of a Jewish mother, whom he regarded as a whore, which perpetuated his hatred of Jews. Is this not religious motivation?
I would like to point out that the battle between the supremacy of Christianity and all other religions HAVE killed more folks than any other single reason.
I don't disagree that world leaders have not killed in the name of power, but it has not killed as many people as religion has, in my opinion. My opinion is based of the events of human history.
This killing continues today....Northern Ireland, Middle East, Asia, the Pacific Rim, the list goes on and on....
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... | |
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deltat2000
Timor Omnis Abesto
Premium
join:2000-04-13
127.0.0.1
clubs: | Please quote your historic references for this statement!
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The Future Is Purchased By The Present! | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| said by DannyBoy:
Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
I'm afraid I'd have to agree... you're focusing on modern history. You have to remember that throughout the ages, more people are murdered "In the name of God" then any other reason.
Remember that Religion doesn't mean truth. Religion is often just the empty form and ritual that has been used to twist and bury the truth. There are many obviously "religiously devout" human beings who obviously don't know much about God... | |
| | | | | | | finortis
join:2001-11-30
| Re: Church members You know what I find interesting, and some might chose to take it with a grain of salt without a provided reference, which I don't have in front of me (lets just say I've read a lot over the years, and even decades).
Purportedly, Mahatma Gahndi was considering converting to Christianity...but in the end he basically said to the effect of "Christians seem to take an innoculation of truth as testimoney against the real thing...." But he went on to say that even as the defects of Christianity were becomming apparent to him, so the defects of Hinduism were becoming increasingly apparent to him as well.... Supposedly (where did I see this), some weren't happy that he should have dared to say this...and yet one can also wonder who might have been closer to the source, if you will, in all this as well... | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Church members I also heard a quote attributed to Ghandi (and I also am not sure how true it is) but it went like this...
"If the world met the Christ of Christianity today, they would embrace him, but instead they meet the Christians of Christianity, and are turned away."
While I understand what he is saying, I'm still not so sure about the first part. | |
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Jamming777$
Time Is Running Out
Premium
join:2001-07-25
USA
|  Re: Church members
said by Linuvas:
Please referance crusades 1-3, and follow that by most various fights between protestants and catholics, see also IRA, and lets take a look at the massacare of the jews under hitler, the Priest Stalin sent to Siberea, and we can top it all off with the inquisition.
Stalin was an avowed athiest, the official view of the Communist Party of the former Soviet Union, Hitler killed out of a psuedo-scientific theory and personal beliefs not as a religious leader. The Inquisition which one the Roman or the Spanish? Or one of the other smaller ones? Most of the inquisitions were condemned at the time by the Roman Catholic religious leaders of their own time even. The IRA which wing or party of the IRA, some fight for ethnic reasons against the Orangemen, some are Communistic, and some are Religiously based.
Crusades were not so much about massacres, there were a few but that was how wars were fought then when cities that resisted in a siege were taken. It was considered that if you didn't resist you would be spared the sacking and pillaging, wars between Christians were even fought that way. Many people here are ignorant of the political and social realities of the period's that they are citing in their opinions.
But tell me this, do you like the "Song Amazing Grace", it was written by a former Slave Ship Captain, a Scotsman. He was writing about how that things we consider normal for our times may be transcended, by God's Love and his gift of "Grace". It is placing your trust in something other than your own abilities, because some where along the line you are going to fail. God makes things work out in the evils of all times, God is not religion. His will can be thwarted because He gave us the freedom to choose wrongly, even those that speak in his name. But "Grace" allows all of us to move beyond the facts and opinions, we or others hold, by trusting for the future.
Weak-willed? HA! try trusting some one other than yourself for your future and happiness, I bet you wouldn't last an hour.
--
Jamming *Team Z Member* | |
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mags2
Agent Provocateur
join:2001-07-19
SoCal
|
Religious discussions are always going to attract those of varying opinions, including atheists/agnostics....But the only thing that has been certain throughout the course of human history as we know it is that religion, in its' varying degrees of philosophy, has been responsible for more deaths of human beings than any other single cause. One should also be prepared to accept criticism as much as support in issues such as these.
Well said, BrianDamage. I have always subscribed to the idea that religion -generally speaking- kills a thinking mind dead and the only way most acolytes of the faith can keep it together is to prosecute, proselytize and otherwise eradicate those who believe anything different.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson | |
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See 8 replies to this post | |
| | | nomocontrol
join:2000-12-12
Rockville, MD | remember, there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over...sorry, I stole that from Frank Zappa, but isn't that what this is all about anyway ?? | |
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Hop
Prostate cancer sucks
Premium
join:2002-03-16
Tarpon Springs, FL
clubs: | Re: Church members Hey, wasn't that a singing group from the 60's???
(Neal Down and Ben Dover!);)
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What if they took our computers away? | |
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mags2
Agent Provocateur
join:2001-07-19
SoCal
| Re: Church memberssaid by Hop:
Hey, wasn't that a singing group from the 60's???
(Neal Down and Ben Dover!);)
Good one, Hop.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| To each his own, but I don't think you have the right perspective regarding personal beliefs. If what you say is true then EVERYBODY is weak-willed/weak minded. A belief system goes way beyond just religion. Look at the political parties. There are people who are overly zealous for their political affiliation...sometimes to the point that goes beyond reason. Look at sports fans. Some of them go through the same ritualistic mannerisms regarding their favorite team or sport. Everyone has a focal belief system. That's a part of human nature. To say those who believe in God are weak minded is actually narrow minded in of itself. It's likely even you believe in some sort of something beyond your own sphere of influence whether it be politics, spirituality, sports, movie stars, or Quake III. Whatever floats your boat.
As a matter of fact there are many strong willed people out there who would strongly argue your point. Believing in something or having a spiritual faith does not equate to weakness. The weakness is in not making your own choices on what you believe. While I agree organized religion in of itself is not the answer I think people who figure out their spirituality end up being stronger than those who don't.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!? | |
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