 
Dirk Daring
join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA
| Just do wireless "It took us some 10 months to go through the negotiations, which means one needs to start with the phone company maybe a year in advance of when you really want to launch service," Oppedahl says. "Others might have better luck than us with their phone company, in which case maybe they would not face a yearlong delay."
Give me a break. 10 months? GUH. Get a T1, find a spot for an access point and do wireless.
Dirk | |
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RutDog
join:2001-08-11
Portland, OR
| 3G is coming to your town soon Wireless, yes, but not 802.11 of any flavor: 3G cellular is where its at for Dillon. SprintPCS is rolling out 144kbps service this summer, 288kbps in 2003, and 5Mbps by 2004.
You could approach SprintPCS about using your subdivision as a beta site for upgrades so you can get the faster services even quicker. Talk them into putting up one of those towers that look like trees to assure full coverage without spoiling the scenery. It would be great publicity for them, and more egg on Qwest's face.
I've posted previously about 3G and how I think the DSLR people are overlooking its potential here...
»Life on the 3G Express -- coming soon | |
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RutDog
join:2001-08-11
Portland, OR
| Re: 3G is coming to your town soon said by RutDog:
I've posted previously about 3G and how I think the DSLR people are overlooking its potential here...
»Life on the 3G Express -- coming soon
And I'm still being ignored! 
I'm just curious, why is nobody very interested in 3G? | |
| | | | oppedahl
join:2001-09-23
Dillon, CO
| said by Dirk Daring:
"It took us some 10 months to go through the negotiations, which means one needs to start with the phone company maybe a year in advance of when you really want to launch service," Oppedahl says. "Others might have better luck than us with their phone company, in which case maybe they would not face a yearlong delay."
Give me a break. 10 months? GUH. Get a T1, find a spot for an access point and do wireless.
Dirk
We have a T1, thank you. And it is easy for you to say "find a spot for an access point and do wireless", but three is no such spot, not in our neighborhood. Had there been such a spot, we would have considered doing wireless. But there are too many hills and too many trees. Not to mention, the 2.4 GHz spectrum is filling up. A system that worked on Monday might not work on Tuesday due to some new user who is using 2.4 Gig for something else. | |
| | | ssynfallan
join:2001-07-24
Denver, CO | Re: Just do wireless Besides, it's gotta be a lot more fun to stick it to Qwest every once in a while. I'm sure we've all long been sick of the telephone companies pushing us around (with their fully automatics... It's just a Deer Dance after all). | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Perhaps I'm biased but... ...might it make sense to consider avoiding the telco entirely and deploying a community-wide network based on fixed wireless? For example, a full or fractional T1 could be brought into a centrally located transmission station where everyone could connect to the transmitter via fixed wireless radios. The radios could be leased to the customers and included in the monthly cost (since it would most likely be a non-profit cooperative, the cost to the subscriber, including the lease and T1 payment, would be probably $20 to $30 per month).
With mesh technology on the verge of exploding, line-of-sight won't be required back to the central transmitter anymore. As long as a subscriber can see his or her neighbor's antenna, they'll be able to get access. Since this would be a cooperative, chances are "rules" could be engaged to prevent anyone from turning radios off, etc.
Not saying this is without perfection, but it's an idea.
Just my two cents! 
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| | Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Perhaps I'm biased but... I agree, but then someone can be a dick about it and report unlicensed wireless technology being deployed for profit, and then what do you have.. The FCC knocking on your door demanding that either you pay taxes/license fees for that spectrum, or shut the network down. I don't believe the FCC treats all short-range radio transmitters the same way they would with short-range walkie talkie radios, especially when it is for profit.
I know it's easier to deploy wireless, but I wouldn't mind deploying an infrastructure like "Coop." Would be very cool to have that kind of experience on your resume, let alone being able to play around with technology like that.
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: Perhaps I'm biased but... Actually, I mentioned deploying as a non-profit coop for the community; not as a for-profit entity. Not sure where you read I mentioned as a profitable company!
There are many WISPs utilize unlicensed equipment throughout the U.S. for profit. Check out »www.bbwexchange.com/wisps/index.htm for a comprehensive listing.
But, since this would be a non-profit coop, this would work very well since no interaction with the telco would be required.
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| | | | Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Perhaps I'm biased but... Ahh.. I overlooked that, sorry about that.
Yeah, I guess non-profit wireless Internet could work. Not having to pay the ILEC for leasing dead loop trunks would be nice too. 
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: Perhaps I'm biased but... No prob, MosDef.
The better the coop could keep the telco (ILEC, CLEC, Ma-LEC, etc.) out of the loop (except for the backhaul circuit, of course; unless one finds a provider that's selling high-throughput, dedicated PtP 5.8GHz spectrum links!), the better for the end users.
I think with the influx of housing subdivisions in rural areas, this could be the next big thing for broadband.
Again, perhaps I'm biased!
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| | | | | | Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Perhaps I'm biased but... Well.. At least it's an idea that could actually work. Now where's those venture capital investors..
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Perhaps I'm biased but... LOL! Ya. It amazes me how they were fine with pissing away money on DSL ISPs that resold ILEC DSL knowing that there would be no ROI for at least two or three years, on top of the fact that ILECs were pretty impossible in letting you resell to begin with. I don't get the methodology. So far what we've all seen is.. "Well.. It might work and might make us some cash eventually.. But since DSL is the latest hype why not think it may not make us cash, eh?" It's worst than trying to explain my parents way back when the reasons why it would be good to get broadband.
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| | oppedahl
join:2001-09-23
Dillon, CO
| As a director of the Ruby Ranch Internet Cooperative Association, I was interested to read your posting. You saw what troubles we had with Qwest, and you wonder, why don't we simply go wireless.
There are several reasons.
First, we are wireless. As you will see if you look at our web site at »www.rric.net, we use point-to-point wireless links (802.11, but not 802.11b) and high-gain antennas to bring a T1 to our neighborhood. From there we will be using DSL to reach the various homes.
But no, to answer your question, wireless is not workable within our neighborhood.
First, the area where we are is very hilly and very forested. As a consequence, wireless is simply not workable. Line of sight is impossible for most homes in our neighborhood.
Second, we have a lot of lightning here. We have already lost two 802.11 transceivers to lightning over the past year, in the point-to-point links mentioned above. We have put in some extra lightning protection there. But if we were to add several dozen more transceivers and antennas, we would be much more exposed to lightning risk than we are now.
Third, there are a lot of problems with 802.11b. If you turn on a CB radio nowadays, it is a cesspool. Everybody uses it for everything. Turn to the 49MHz band that used to be used for cell phones and baby monitors. It is now filled with competing users. The same has happened in the 900-MHz unlicensed band. It is already happening in the 2.4 GHz band. Microwave ovens, cordless phones, Bluetooth, other competing 802.11b users, they all trip over each other, fighting to use this ever-more-crowded band.
In other words, a system that works on Monday might not work on Tuesday.
If we hop from house to house, as you suggest, then troubleshooting is a nightmare. If somebody's connectivity goes out, we then would have to go to the next house over to troubleshoot, where the person may be out of town for a few weeks or months. (Our neighborhood has some homes that are second homes and the owners are not there very often.)
No, wireless would not be a good solution for us.
Thanks for the suggestion though. | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: Perhaps I'm biased but... You're very welcome, oppedahl! Thx much for responding. I'm actually very impressed that you've taken the time to share in the discussion here. I'm pulling for you guys, knowing what it's like to be in a broadband deprived area. Seeing your community pull together to try to deploy a network on your own is certainly commendable and an inspiration!
Congrats in using a PtP 802.11b bridge to bring the T1 to your neighborhood. I was only half-joking when I mentioned before a PtP to your neighborhood would be cool. I obviously don't know about your topology but am very glad to hear, of course, that the PtP is working out for you!
Here are some additional ideas which might be beneficial to you (yeah, I'm stubborn! ):
802.11b certainly does have its limitations, especially if there are plenty of 2.4GHz gear in the area. There are ways around this, of course, but it might be an idea to consider 802.11 (not 802.11b) FHSS gear like something from Raylink. Because FHSS basically hops through about 80 "micro-slivers" of the spectrum vs. 802.11b (DSSS) hopping through about three "macroslivers", the hopping sequence occurs much more frequently, thus allowing in lower interference issues. But, the caveat is that 802.11 isn't as fast as 802.11b, being 2Mbps raw data vs. 11Mbps raw data throughput.
Also, there are many 5.8GHz manufacturers coming out (i.e. Motorola's Canopy, for example) that'll eliminate the 2.4GHz spectrum saturation entirely as there aren't any cordless phones or baby monitors on the market that are within the 5.8GHz band (at least, none that I know of, FWIW!)
The lightning issue may be taken care of with a $30 to $40 unit called a Polyphaser LSX that sits in between the antenna and radio. I have a couple radios that have taken a few hits and stayed up (the antennas fried, though, but they're much cheaper than the radio; Alvarion BAII; long story!) without problems.
I understand your point about mesh. While it's certainly feasible (we're looking to create a wireless network for a small, rural town using mesh technologies; heavy trees there), our questions is, as you mentioned, how to ensure the radio stays on to allow traffic to flow to subs beyond the unit?
How Nokia did it with their Rooftop line is they built redundancy into the network which means if a subscriber unit goes down, the packets find the next available wireless connection to the next subscriber unit and adjusts the link automatically. The larger the deployment, the more redundant the network and the less problems that occur should a few homeowners turn their SU's off.
Whew!! Hope this might help shed some light on wireless.
Thx again!
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Dirk Daring
join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA
| That's too bad wireless will not work for you all. I've been out to Colorado a few times, and yes I can believe that LOS can be a problem for a community.
You might want to look at the Nokia Rooftop for the heck of it anyhow, it's some pretty amazing stuff.
Good luck!
Dirk | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| How's it going, Dirk? Hey, Dirk, have y'all deployed Rooftop in your community? Been some time since we've heard about your efforts. I'd enjoy hearing how it's going for you!
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Dirk Daring
join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA
| Re: How's it going, Dirk? You know, I don't know how I missed this post. I read every day here, must have slid right past it. Found it on a search while looking for another posting.
We decided not to go the rooftop way at all actually, with any gear whatsoever.
Our HOA board (the Web Committee Broadband team that I'm leading acutally) wrote and issued an RFP to all the local service providers to come in and give us service. We got a bunch of responses back, mostly all from WISP startups. We selected 3 responses to the RFP (and man were they all good! Some very well written) and voted and selected a winner.
The WISP selected is going to deploy a mesh network of routers strategically placed around the community. Everyone will be able to access these routers with 100mw wireless gear (or 30mw, depending on how far you are from the local CAN router). Anyone on the outer fringes will have to buy a small antenna. With this system anyone can surf the web at the pool, park bench, school, soccer game, etc with a laptop.
CPE costs are going to run about $120 for a 100mw pcmcia card. I'm not sure about other hardware yet, like PCI. We're looking (well I am anyhow) at the Linksys WET11 as a ethernet bridge solution for easy home networking. With a pigtail and antenna thats looking to run about $250.
Dirk
»hoa.broadlands.org | |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: Great idea, great cooperation, but.. Actually, Brian, I know of several WISPs that are putting up to 100 subscribers on one T1 and they're doing so successfully because they've oversubscribed a good mixture of business to residential subscribers that the T1's usage is evenly spread out.
Granted, we're talking about a residential deployment here but one way the housing community might bring in additional revenue is to sell access to that T1 during the day to businesses when most residents aren't home. Then, when the residents come home at night, the T1 is available for their use because the businesses will usually shut down at 5pm.
If a T1 is oversubscribed properly, all can be happy.
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Re: Great idea, great cooperation, but.. Check this out, Brian. You might find it interesting:
»accima.com/mrtg/odessa-gw.odessa···com.html
This is a WISP in Washington state that has 130 wireless subscribers on a single T1 circuit. He gives them the full pipe (doesn't bandwidth shape) and charges $.05 per Mb over 1Gb of data transfer per month.
The pipe's definitely not approaching capacity, probably because his subscribers are so nervous about going over their 1Gb transfer limit!
But, it's possible.
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| | | | | | | dsless
join:2001-05-16
Pittsburgh, PA
| Where are you from in WV? I live in Poca and am still waiting for Adelphia to bring powerstink to are area. To far for DSL. They don't have DSL at my co anyhow. But Verizon has it all around me. I have a Verizon IDSL line which took them 6 months to install and get functioning. WV broadband is 28.8. | |
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Brianv
Low Level Functionary
Premium
join:2001-01-20
Keyser, WV |  Re: Great idea, great cooperation, but..
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SnakeEyes1
So Much For Subtlety
join:2001-08-23
Lake Zurich, IL | Re: Great idea, great cooperation, but.. Sounds almost as bad as Franklin. ('nother WV-bred geek here)
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
edited
| Has anyone actually read the PUC decision? Granted, the Coop will get Qwest to give them access to subloops. But it seems to me that Qwest got away with:
a) The $1,000,000 insurance requirement.
b) The loop activation fee of $120.67
c) The loop monthly recurring fee of $8.73
d) The estimate fee of $1,707 for the install of the
screw terminal and termination of a 100 pair wire,
that is just the estimate, not the actual cost to do
it.
Later there is a footnote that states: Qwest has
conceded at hearing that the quote preparation fee
would be credited against the actual construction
charge. However, if the construction charge were less
than the quote preparation fee, Qwest does not propose
to refund the difference. So they get to send someone to
spend 30 to 45 minutes tops to install this screw
terminal and terminate the pairs on it and they get to
charge $1,700? OMG.
Having finished reading all the court documents, I'm perplexed at this, since Qwest could not provide any convincing argument to justify things like the insurance, for example. I wouldn't call this a win.
[text was edited by author 2002-04-09 21:20:13] | |
| | 
I_h8_h8rs
@uswest.net
| Re: Has anyone actually read the PUC decision? I have an idea...
instead of bitching about how Qwest has screwed you, why dont you go buy your own copper feeder cable, pay contractors to dig or trench for you and clean up all the peoples yards they mess up, oh and pay to have a pedestal and the CO wired. If you think you can start a better phone company, go for it, this is America you know. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs: | Re: Has anyone actually read the PUC decision? Oooh, touched a nerve I see. You obviously haven't read at all before letting your fingers run stupidly wild. When I make a phone company of my own, should I ask America to make it a sanctioned monopoly too so I can abuse my powers? | |
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i5050MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI | 3G $$$$ Hi RutDog,
I'd use Sprint's 3G when they roll it out but the last price sheet I saw had the service listed at approximately $1 per MB. It would probably be OK for email while on the road but way too expensive for home use. | |
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3G anyone?