 
batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
2 edits | Backup Can anyone provide me one solid case or reason that BPL's design (typically fiber to a point, then powerline) would be better than a fiber to a wifi drop?
It seems that using wifi drops would be substantially cheaper and more robust than any of the speeds I've seen for the powerline stuff.
Really....honestly...I 'd love to hear if someone can prove to me I'm wrong. I'd like to be "schooled" on this because I really just don't get the advantage of using BPL.
Peace
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Cerabus12
Dial-up 4 Life
join:2005-08-09
Brooker, FL
1 edit | Re: Backup I don't think there really is no "advantage" but for people like me who live out in the boonies this would be a god sent | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
| Re: Backup I'm not arguing its ability to bring services. It just seems like it would be cheaper and faster to deliver those services to the actual home via wireless.
All of the BPL builds I've read about aren't pushing any sort of video product and their speeds seem to be limited to the 6 to 10 mb range as far as speed is concerned.
If we can assume that a BPL plant has a fiber backbone (i think i'm safe on that), and that the powerline stuff is just used to get it into a home, i don't know why you wouldn't just use cheap wifi stuff at the ends.
again, i'd like to be proven wrong here and learn something new...
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| | | roady1
join:2003-11-13
Cleveland, OH
| It's viable... Particularly in places like Cleveland, who's entire west side lacks the proper switching equipment to support DSL. TWC(formerly Adelphia) has a very firm grip on the market due to poor equipment.
I'd love to use wireless or DSL...or even BPL...but any advancement keeps getting squashed by the local city laws. | |
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| | | | Estragon
join:2003-06-20
Greenville, NH | Question about Cleveland Does Cleveland bury its power lines, or do they run on poles up in the air?
And would it make a difference in the HF interference produced by BPL? | |
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| | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
 ·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: It's viable... With First Energy being based in Cleveland and their own Telco- First Communications you would think they'd have more push for BPL in Cleveland or even their own FTTH network. They have the money to buy out other CLECs but nothing to invest in actual networks. | |
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Matt
Gone playing Dragon Age Origins
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
| Re: Backup said by batageek  :again, i'd like to be proven wrong here and learn something new... Which will propagate a signal better, air or copper wire?
Ever tried to shoot a wireless signal around an obstruction at a 90 degree angle?
Wireless is much, MUCH harder to get right than delivering a signal over a wire. Hell, most carriers can't get a decent quality VOICE call to stay connected.
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| Estragon
join:2003-06-20
Greenville, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
·MV Communications,..
| All geography is local It all depends upon your terrain.
(1) In a dense urban setting, your wifi configuration will be limited by the total amount of spectrum that is available, and how closely you can space your wifi access points.
(2) In an east coast rural setting, your wifi plan depends upon having line of sight to the access point, and trees get seriously in the way.
And if you run that much fiber, you basically have FTTC anyway. why not just go all the way to the home? | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
| Re: All geography is local said by Estragon :And if you run that much fiber, you basically have FTTC anyway. why not just go all the way to the home? But that was kind of my point.
My understanding was that most of the BPL builds are supported by fiber rings around the area anyway. I seem to remember that the expensive part of the BPL builds is literally at the conversion point from the fiber to where it uses the powerline segment/equipment to reach into the home.
If you're that close, and can't run fiber all the way to the home, wouldn't it be substantially cheaper (and more technology safe) to do the end run from the fiber node via a close range mesh (with widely available, standard wifi junk) rather than a proprietary delivery system?
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Matt
Gone playing Dragon Age Origins
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| Re: All geography is local said by batageek :said by Estragon :And if you run that much fiber, you basically have FTTC anyway. why not just go all the way to the home? But that was kind of my point. My understanding was that most of the BPL builds are supported by fiber rings around the area anyway. I seem to remember that the expensive part of the BPL builds is literally at the conversion point from the fiber to where it uses the powerline segment/equipment to reach into the home. If you're that close, and can't run fiber all the way to the home, wouldn't it be substantially cheaper (and more technology safe) to do the end run from the fiber node via a close range mesh (with widely available, standard wifi junk) rather than a proprietary delivery system? Not really. Here is Duke Energy's fiber network: »www.duke-energy.com/dukenet/
It would be way more expensive to pull fiber all the way to the home or use an unlicensed technology to provide a wireless mesh.
What happens when Johnny hacks his WRT54G with a custom firmware?
WiMAX could possibly work in a fixed point-to-point scenario, but now they have to invest in tons of towers and place equipment on the home like a satellite dish.
It's much cheaper to just use the existing wire, convert the signal and provide a transceiver that plugs into the wall.
The telco's have fiber waaaaay closer to the home than the power companies and the only one of them using FTTH is Verizon.
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| W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| Re: Backup said by batageek :Can anyone provide me one solid case or reason that BPL's design (typically fiber to a point, then powerline) would be better than a fiber to a wifi drop? In a building, in-premise BPL can save a fair amount of wiring costs. Of course, some of the same problems seen with getting WiFi to the back of a building have been seen between BPL modems and outlets widely separated in a home or apartment.
Don't just think access -- for utility applications, Fiber and WiFi probably can't do as well as signals on the power lines themselves.
DSP would require a repeater after about 5000 feet or so from the central office. This has been a major factor in the economics of DSL and remote locations. BPL requires a repeater reportedly every 2000 feet, although I have seen in most installations 500 to 1000 feet to be more typical.
There are a few studies on rural BPL in the "business and financial" page on ARRL's BPL page at »www.arrl.org/bpl.
Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org
ARRL Laboratory Manager
225 Main St
Newington, CT 06111
Tel: 860-594-0318 | |
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| GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA
| A couple of years ago, a friend and I suggested that a company could put short-range wi-fi transceivers inside individual neighborhoods for distribution.
We first looked at the problem with how cable and telephone companies had to deal with what we called local-loop installs and came up with a wireless solution by providing lawn-torpedo wireless trasmitters that used a combination of heavy encryption, custom wireless CPE, and wireless distances under 300 feet.
The initial thought was when BellSouth was originally charging its PC Data customers $175 to install their IFITL technology, which was way too much for the average consumer and resulted in low market penetration. The ONU would have been a nice scenario for this wireless approach as the lawn torpedo only needed 200-300 of clear distance.
Then we thought the same thing for the lawn torpedo for the cable company using just data transport, and thought again about how our local electrical cooperative company could place a 6-8" antenna on every lamp post in our respective planned neighborhoods that they own.
Because the shortness of wireless range the resulting power level requirements were on par for current consumer product power levels. No need to cause alarm in the amateur radio folks. And while I greatly dislike wireless in my own paranoid home, it would eliminate the local-loop troubleshooting aspect and simplify self-installs.
Folks, keep in mind that its not that difficult for a utility company to prospect the BPL scenario. Remember, they already have MEN and TRUCKS and a heck of a lot of digging experience. For them to extend fiber into the neighborhoods would not be that difficult. Now add this idea to the not-for-profit electrical coop scenario and you have a consumer-friendly, utility that competes. | |
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n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
1 edit | "outpace" the growth rates? This is probably true. Remember if you sign one customer in a single year and then sign two the following year you have a 100% growth in customers! Considering how few people actually use BPL, I expect to see amazing growth rates on the order of 500% to 1000% or more. Increase your customer base from 100 to 5000 and you can report some amazing growth numbers.
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: "outpace" the growth rates? said by GOLFnSUN :said by n2jtx :This is probably true. Remember if you sign one customer in a single year and then sign two the following year you have a 100% growth in customers! Considering how few people actually use BPL, I expect to see amazing growth rates on the order of 500% to 1000% or more. Increase your customer base from 100 to 5000 and you can report some amazing growth numbers. What you say is true. But, IF the report is accurate about their already being 400,000 U.S. BPL subscribers, getting to 2.5 million by 2011 means adding approx 400,000 customers per year till then. While possible, that is a tall order given all the competition. Especially since Wimax seems to be the NEW method of choice for expanding broadband to rural areas. I can almost guarantee there are not 400,000 US BPL customers today. The FCC's report in December 2005 listed only around 8,500 customers, and the FCC is known to be very optimistic in their broadband data. The largest BPL system in the US is in Cincinnati, and I believe that system is 50,000 homes passed (not actual customers). I don't even think there's 400,000 homes passed yet.
BPL growth could easily exceed Cable and DSL this year if one looks at percentages. Adding 10,000 or 20,000 new BPL customers for 100% growth is trivial compared with adding another 30 million DSL or cable subscribers. | |
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| | | rmrper
join:2006-06-13
Garland, TX
 ·AT&T CallVantage
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: "outpace" the growth rates? Remember the 12/05 press release about TXU and Current doing BPL in DFW? Well, as far as I know there are no data/voice/video service trials running, but there was a press release in 10/06 that said they were rolling out hundreds of thousands of BPL enabled meters for advanced monitoring & management services. Maybe they are counting these people as BPL customers? Of course, I'm really curious when the data and other services mentioned in that original press release will become available. Not that it matters to me, I have FIOS, but they sure made it sound like millions in the DFW area would have a new broadband option and I haven't heard anything about it in the last year. | |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| prediction as soon as wireless broadband becomes a viable solution in rural areas (and elsewhere), which seems a lot more likely than BPL becoming widespread, we will stop seeing press releases and other stories about BPL deployments.
wireless broadband will kill BPL before the ARRL will. | |
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| Estragon
join:2003-06-20
Greenville, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
·MV Communications,..
| Re: prediction How do you kill something that is not alive?
It looks like most of the rah-rah press about BPL comes from the companies making BPL hardware. We should pay more attention to the electrical power companies. It appears that the power companies do not see a profitable business model around BPL. Most of the BPL trials seem to end with a press release that says "the trial was a success, and we will not be deploying BPL at this time". | |
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| | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| Re: prediction said by Estragon :How do you kill something that is not alive?... good point. however, it is electricity and we know what that did for Frankenstein. | |
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CPM
join:2001-08-24
Miami, FL | 200 Million BPL Customers by 2020 Wow, playing with numbers is fun. | |
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rcm
join:2004-02-16
Pulaski, TN | BPL Yawn..... | |
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| Estragon
join:2003-06-20
Greenville, NH | Re: BPL I save the yawns for blimpband. | |
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jslik
That just happened
Premium
join:2006-03-17
clubs:
| I got into the wrong business "a new study claims that there will be 2.5 million broadband over powerline (BPL) customers by 2011..."
Who pays somebody for this junk? Hey, here's an idea...
"A study just completed by jslik reports that jslik will have $3.2 million dollars more in his bank account by close of business today."
...now I just gotta find somebody to pay me 3.2 million for that study....  | |
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kyramilan
join:2006-11-26
Pensacola, FL
| Re: I got into the wrong business The power companies are looking for a new revenue stream and have the big money to throw at this thing. And, when they do upgrades or big repairs, it would be pretty easy to deploy the HSI aspect.
Isn't it possible fiber could be a powerline?
The only problem, other than the tech hasn't arrived, is how they are going to regulate the power grid. | |
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drman7
join:2004-05-07
Jersey City, NJ
| BPL in Dominican Republic What's up all. For those who know about the small and beautiful country in the carribean. Dominican Republic has had major issues with electricity. Supposedly, to conserve energy they have a partial nationwide blackout, several days a week. This is for several hours. So BPL is a no no for Dominican Republic, until that is resolved. This has been going on since I could remember..maybe 30+ years.. | |
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warriors
It's A Great Time Out
join:2001-06-05
Alviso, CA | Re: BPL in Dominican Republic hm... you need electricity to power up DSL modem, cable modem, or even your computer! | |
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kv5e
Ride Free
Premium
join:2001-12-04
Mesquite, TX
| Neighborhood Challenges
Hollow State Glow |
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CycloneGT
join:2001-11-15
Boyds, MD
| BPL is on the way. Well, if BPL can offer up to 17MB symetrical in some instances, and 10MB in most. I don't see how DSL is that much better.
And talk about bundling. Sure Cable and Telcos can do Video/VoiP/Data, but can they add Electricity into their bundles?
Still most Power companies are mostly interested in SmartGrid applications for BPL technologies. Targeting broadband is secondary and they aren't really hungry for the power users (who trip up the bandwidth caps and cost more than they pay). No the broadband that they will offer will be very good, but not a fios killer. | |
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2.5 Million BPL Customers By 2011
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Re: "outpace" the growth rates?
