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Liability and Lawyer-Grams
ISP's fight to remain invisibile (and oh..protect privacy)
(old news - 01:16PM Friday Jan 31 2003)
tags: legal · Fileswapping
While the DMCA based legal pugilism between the RIAA and Verizon rages over the ISP's responsibility to turn over accused 'pirate' personal info, the ISP's continue to sheepishly forward threatening letters to their customers at the behest of the RIAA/MPAA, though their level of enthusiasm for the practice clearly isn't substantial. But will casual half hearted requests eventually shift to court orders and prosecution?

Letters from the MPAA and RIAA warning file traders to cease and desist have been common for more than a year. Cox was busy sending letters to Simpsons pirates last summer. Sony music sent out its own round of letters to music traders last spring, and the rate of such "lawyer-grams" has only increased since.

Take this individual for instance, who just yesterday received an e-mail from his ISP warning him that he'd been a little too busy on the file trading circuit:

"You are receiving this notification because we have received complaints which have originated from your DSL line." the letter begins. "The complaints refer to copyright infringement activity originating from your network."

The customer immediately cried foul, claiming that DSLExtreme was stomping on his privacy, assuming that it was his ISP that was doing the threatening and keeping a watchful eye over his file trading adventures.

The reality is that "p2p intelligence" companies like BayTSP scour file trading networks for significant offenders, then report both the files traded and the IP address back to their RIAA/MPAA masters. The music and film industry in turn send a letter to the ISP, whose only responsibility (for the time being) is to pass that letter on to the offender.

"We suggest taking your computer of off your network until the problem is resolved." the letter continues. "This is the only warning you will receive from us and a period of 24 hours has been set so you can take appropriate action. If a second complaint is received after the 24 hour period, your account may be temporarily suspended."

Temporarily suspended? By Whom? The ISP? According to a DSLExtreme employee responding to the claims in our forums, they're simply passing the letter on. "What you do with that information is completely up to you. You may choose to take down the material or leave it on your computer," suggesting that most ISP's really don't care, provided they can't be held responsible for the offense.

And being held liable is the backbone of the entire issue. Some have been quick to paint Verizon as a champion of consumer rights in their courtroom battles, which isn't entirely accurate. Verizon is protecting itself. If the current court order becomes a trend, ISP's could face an endless sea of subpoenas from individuals and organizations claiming their copyrights had been violated without offering proof. Not to mention the impact it would have on their subscriber count.

Were you of the opinion that Verizon was simply "fighting the good fight" on principle?

The Los Angeles Times reports that Verizon is already happily sacrificing customer privacy by turning over several subscribers' personal information to the RIAA in the hopes of getting the ruling suspended or modified. Verizon had hoped there could be a limit set on the number of RIAA subpoenas they would have to process, but so far no agreement has been reached.

The user caught red handed downloading files really can't stomp his feet and demand justice, since DSLExtreme's acceptable use policy clearly dictates that "as a user of DSLExtreme.com, you agree not to use the service in a manner that violates any local, state or federal law." However much the file trading community would like to debate or justify it, it's impossible to argue that file trading is not illegal.

That said, consumer rights advocates are justifiably worried that the RIAA's use of the DMCA to obtain subscriber personal data eliminates the entire concept of due process. Whatever Verizon's motivation, their legal battle should be supported, as the court's interpretation of this particular provision of the DMCA gives companies (or almost anyone) the right to demand the name, address, and phone number of a subscriber without presenting evidence of any kind that they've actually done something wrong.

The case will likely bring a re-examination of the DMCA and some modifications making it more relevant to modern technology, something that many think is long overdue. Perhaps the fact that companies are stretching and warping (see Lexmark case) the vague legislation to serve whatever purpose they see fit is a good indication that something's wrong?

But even if the case is dismissed and the DMCA gets rewritten, how long can the ISP remain the messenger without enforcing the message? How long before they're obligated to both provide a name for each suspect IP address, and be the delivery vessel for bolder legal threats? Verizon has appealed the court ruling, but the courts show every indication of eventually making file traders pay for crossing the line.

How long before the threatening lawyer-gram becomes a subpoena?

Related:
  1. Pirate Bay Gets Yanked Offline
  2. Britain Returns To 'Three Strikes' Plan
  3. France 'Three Strikes' Rides Again
  4. Barry Manilow Highlights 'Three Strikes' Law Stupidity
  5. British Cops, Spies Oppose 'Three Strikes'
  6. Will 'Three Strikes' Come To The United States?
  7. Wi-Fi Network Shuttered By MPAA Re-Opens
  8. Pirate Bay Tracker Offline for Good
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Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA


EXACTLY

"Whatever Verizon's motivation, their legal battle should be supported, as the court's interpretation of this particular provision of the DMCA gives companies (or almost anyone) the right to demand the name, address, and phone number of a subscriber without presenting evidence of any kind that they've actually done something wrong."

No mandate, no evidence, no damn legal authority.

The RIAA racketeering activity continues...and while the RIAA is engaged in these threats, blackmail, price fixing, market manipulation, bribery and other criminal activity, they're concerned about file traders to the point that they will circumvent our long standing concepts of due process to continue their monopoly control of their industry or bribe politicians into passing laws that are clearly illegal and run contrary to long standing provisions in Title 17.

F the RIAA...goosestepping pieces of S. So long as they continue their criminal behavior and illegally manipulate market prices...I will continue finding ways to circumvent their illegal efforts.
--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.

[text was edited by author 2003-01-31 13:42:36]
OLDaria

join:2003-02-05
31665

Re: EXACTLY

A.R.I.A. DEVELOPMENTS

With regard to P2P and file sharing, we share files with friends for many different reasons and always encrypt those.
We are close to finalizing the development of software that takes this a stage further. This software effectively resides on the net itself without any real interface being on a pc. The trick is to break all files into variable length segments and to encrypt those segments and duplicate and store as small packets on any T1 or above connected PC. These packets of data have a "hook and eye " that only recognizes the next link and so prevents any packets that are viruses or even fake segments fitting in the chain.
An encrypted database, of IP addresses of the T1 or above PC's that are online is similarly encrypted and distributed about the entire network. Other software, again with encryption and broken into packets monitors on a continuous basis the number of segments residing on live PCs and if a PC goes offline it will make a duplicate and encrypt it and add to another PC coming online. All a user has to do to retrieve any file is to obtain any IP address of any PC on the system and that will automatically link him to the network and download an encrypted interface that is very small and simply has the ability to accept a file name and a location for a folder with files to be shared.

The files to be shared are then broken into segments, encrypted and distributed over the net to any T1 or above connection and stored as a temp file on that PC whilst it is online. Counting of the files and optimization of the number of copies is done with other software residing on other PCs. the optimization is done with regard to demand at the time ensuring the fastest downloads. The encrypted database of IP addresses continuously feeds the information required to any Pc that is looking for that file segment of its whereabouts. Downloads of encrypted segments is typically done in the order of 1.2 to 18 seconds.

Collecting file segments is just the reverse of this process and only when the entire file is downloaded and all the pieces, with the "hook and eye" confirming that the correct segments are in place, will the software decrypt the file.
Bingo. The file appears on your PC and all the encrypted segments are deleted.

As more and more IP addresses are added to the ever shifting databases and the number of copies of file segments increases that reside even temporarily on online PCs then the chances of retrieving in a very short time the file you want increases. Even going online and opening the initial IP address finder will start your system downloading file segments from your shared file folder onto the system ready for future use by any other user. This system will encrypt any file and any file that is traded will either be a complete file that is uncorrupted before being decrypted on a users PC or it will be a fake file that is also uncorrupted. It will take an unimaginable number of fake files to be uploaded to swamp the number of genuine files so the chance of downloading a fake file is relatively small. Interruptions to download will be at a minimum, and because everything is encrypted using the latest encryption techniques, together with the very fast download times for segments, then the possibility of being accused of being a file trader or having your files decrypted whilst in progress is infinitesimally small.

we are currently looking for testers for the beta version and other interested professionals to help with the final development of this software.

If you are interested please contact A.R.I.A. developments at aria_files@yahoo.co.uk for more information.

Alternative Recording Industry Association

WE WILL RULE THE NET
Please copy and post to as many bulletin boards as you can find with the proviso that any readers do the same
anthoni

join:2003-02-05
UK

ARIA WILL RULE

I have been developing P2P software for nearly 5 years now and this is the breakthrough we needed. This will finally put to rest all the debate about file sharing, as the only way to control it would be to literally shut the entire WWW down.

I guess the RIAA the MPAA and all the others who think they can bludgeon small file traders with legality scan wave goodbye now to their dream of shutting file swapping down.
After years of courtroom battles, the loss of napster and the demise of audiogalaxy the file traders can now see light at the end of the tunnel

Rock on A.R.I.A.
petecellar

join:2002-10-15
Philadelphia, PA

happened to me

Back when I was still using P2P (last year) I received the same warning letter from Verizon. I usually shared only original works (music, vids, etc.) After downloading a dozen "fakes", I thought I'd be a good samaritan and label them as fakes, then share the files to let folks know not to waste their time.

So essentially, since the files were corrupt garbage, I was "turned in" for sharing a large file with the name of a copyrighted work.
stirgeon

join:2002-07-29
San Jose, CA

RIAA hounded me

I was running an FTP and I was actively trading with folks. For about 5 months this went on. ABout 3 weeks ago I got an email forwarded to me by my ISP from the RIAA. It stated that they noticed file trading activity at my IP address. I simply shut it down a few days later. I have since changed IP's and also the port# to login. I'm back in bidness!

jay6082

join:2002-10-16
Crown Point, IN

Privacy and Copyrights

Didn't the right to privacy come before copyrights? The way that the RIAA seems to see it apparently not. To take a phrase from WWE Superstar Chris Jerico, The RIAA is a bunch of A$$ Clowns that have no life, but to make others a living hell.

garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY

Re: Privacy and Copyrights

[sarcasm on]

But it's the law! The law, damn it! You can't break the law, even if you think it's wrong or immoral!!

You may be completely disenfranchised by a corporate system that completely disregards you and your wants, needs, and desires, but we don't care. We will hunt you down for this!

You may not have a voice anymore as your "elected" officials don't give a damn either! Hell, they're on our payroll!

So toe the line, sheep! Get in line to buy your $155 concert tickets and go to WulMurt to buy your oh-so-safe $19 CD's! Anything less is un-American!

[/sarcasm off]

jay6082

join:2002-10-16
Crown Point, IN

Ah, but I have more important things to buy than concert tickets and CDs that are over priced. I have two children that I have to provide for. Heres my take on the whole thing. I don't like it one bit. I will download a song or two, and if I like what I hear I will buy the CD, but then you have the people that have albums downloaded. I think that they should be the ones sought after before people like me.

garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY

Re: Privacy and Copyrights

hence the "sarcasm" annotation

Yeah, I've got mortgages, car payments, student loans, credit cards, utilities, food, gas, etc...

Don't feel so safe by saying all you do is "download a song or two" as they'll come and get you too!

jay6082

join:2002-10-16
Crown Point, IN
As soon as they started this crap, I cancelled all downloads that I had going on. so I kinda feel safe right now.
bluemagic5

join:2003-01-30
Goffstown, NH

Re: Privacy and Copyrights

LOL
Well 2 routers a nic card and 12 os rebuilds flashing my bios and my firm ware upgades changing my internal ip structures binding my netbui and other clients to a none tcp/ip devices I get to watch my son-in-law plug in and get all hacked up every night he has no clue all I can say is Sony.com what kind of ftp on port21 are you sending to my son -in-law while he is playing his Everquest can we all say cross platform scripting? god forbid if i want to use my router to do my thing my way while he is playing his game on a so called safer better networked XP
and if you dont want your hard ware registered internet device making its mailing services available and updated before you get your mouse on boot up i would consider unplugging on boot ups ALEXA is registered as hardware if you did the IE6 upgrade and if im not misstaken the media player upgrade as well Im not sure how it all works so feel free to comment further. some how a microsoft controlled internet feels a bit like how it was in China durring ellection time AMERICA you are asleep at the net kinda like driving while blind Get this while reporting my hacker to the authorities i get a reply saying sorry they dont work for us undelliverable that one was to the FBI I had to chuckle they dont work for us. Who is your ISP going to be next week and what are your rights ComCast your privacy rights page reads like a double tongued serpant lawer from hell wrote is as much as says thell send your data to whome they wish when they wish so from the getgo its all in the big corps hands along with our gov Why we in araq? oh ya OIL well redmond WASHINGTON when is enough enough my cable bill is $85 and my hardware replacment is going up you want me to run xp and give up 98 for how much? $200 after you buy att and comcast and you get your internet registered and licensed you all remember How he took your P/C industry for the big winning ticket now its your tv and your internet set top boxes just the begining we will all pay for every show every download every im every step you take free you say not ever till we all have the same everything when is that going to happen when we are dead till then the man with the most toys wins and Bills ahead buy a millenium me im at the bottom my P/c was my last investment when i was forced to retire due to a heart ailment I want to thank the RIAA for causing me this extra expense and extra stress durring the holliday season you gave me my first experiance with my new aicd they gave me the dec before last a rather shocking experiance thank you. Proving who and how is all im going to do from now till im dead. thank god for spair time. Let the Games Begin

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
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join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
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Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

You can call it what you want...it is still piracy.

The ISPs are going to be turning this up especially as more and more people turn to P2P to get things they don't already own. On P2P, you can get music, games, registration codes for software, full version applications, and so on. All of which are illegal to distribute last I checked. When you buy a piece of software, you can't give a copy to a friend LEGALLY.

Music is a grey area, but my common sense tells me that if you don't own the CD then you shouldn't have the MP3. If you do have the mp3, it is illegal. The DMCA is going to need to be rewritten for the new age. If the RIAA has its way, it will be rewritten for its benefit and not the consumer. All I hope is someone with deep pockets that can invest millions in court will do something in this battle to protect the consumer.

In the meantime, with P2P and FTP server use growing and bandwidth still costs a lot of money, you can be sure that ISPs are going to keep going after people using this technology. Especially if they see your upload going full bore for 2-3 weeks straight.
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal

[text was edited by author 2003-01-31 15:29:18]

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

Well, the RIAA can bitch all they want...it's still RACKETEERING!!!!
--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.
russotto

join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA

Don't exaggerate: piracy is when you board a vessel at sea, capture or kill its crew, and steal everything valuable aboard (possibly including the vessel itself). This carries a term of life in prison

Downloading a song, on the other hand, carries a theoretical maximum term of only one year in prison under the NET act. Plus 5 years for each subsequent song. Figuring the average human lifespan is on the order of 80 years, that means you have to download about 17 songs to reach the level of piracy.

ISPs aren't liable for copyright violations committed by P2P users, so they are unlikely to "go after" too many customers.
Sarge_0321

join:2002-06-27
San Diego, CA

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

Can the term PIRACY be applied to dilusioned right wing nations that feel they have the right to conduct REGIME CHANGE operations.

Equates to piracy in my book.

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

No, it's called preemptive action...the kind meant to save those misguided souls who are too afraid to lead and prevent the deaths of millions while the fantasy proned left wing Hitler appeasing nations stand by waiting for the worst to happen...then bitching to the right wing nations about why they didn't do anything when they could.
--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.
lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

The ball is in your court "Sarge_0321".

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

said by lesopp See Profile:
The ball is in your court "Sarge_0321".
No, the game is long over.
--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.

bear73
Metnav... Fly The Unfriendly Skies
Premium
join:2001-06-09
Grand Forks Afb, ND
·Midcontinent Commu..

said by russotto See Profile:
Don't exaggerate: piracy is when you board a vessel at sea, capture or kill its crew, and steal everything valuable aboard (possibly including the vessel itself). This carries a term of life in prison

Downloading a song, on the other hand, carries a theoretical maximum term of only one year in prison under the NET act. Plus 5 years for each subsequent song. Figuring the average human lifespan is on the order of 80 years, that means you have to download about 17 songs to reach the level of piracy.

ISPs aren't liable for copyright violations committed by P2P users, so they are unlikely to "go after" too many customers.
Also, if you redistribute for profit. As that is essentially what the sailing pirates did. An example of this is how I can go right outside the base gate at Osan AB, S. Korea and buy for $5-10 the latest releases of any movie. VHS quality. Surround sound (mostly). You can also take your XBox or PS2 to the "old man" who will modify it to play backup copies and give you 25 games of your choice for $100 US. That, SONY is pirating. Good luck going after odishi over in Korea.
--
If ya gotta go, Go with a SMILE!
lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

Ahhhh, a fellow "Songtan Sailor"

footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO

said by Nightfall See Profile:
Music is a grey area, but my common sense tells me that if you don't own the CD then you shouldn't have the MP3. If you do have the mp3, it is illegal.
What I don't understand is how having an MP3 is any different than taping a radio broadcast. When I was younger there was a radio show on every Sunday night called the Kingbiscuit Flour Hour. Any time somebody I liked was on, I taped it and therefore got all of their best songs without having to spend any money. Isn't the internet one big broadcast?

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
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Grand Rapids, MI
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Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

said by footballdude See Profile:
said by Nightfall See Profile:
Music is a grey area, but my common sense tells me that if you don't own the CD then you shouldn't have the MP3. If you do have the mp3, it is illegal.
What I don't understand is how having an MP3 is any different than taping a radio broadcast. When I was younger there was a radio show on every Sunday night called the Kingbiscuit Flour Hour. Any time somebody I liked was on, I taped it and therefore got all of their best songs without having to spend any money. Isn't the internet one big broadcast?
That is something the DMCA will need to include in a future revision.
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal

J D McDorce
Premium
join:2001-12-29
Westland, MI

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

And if the RIAA has their way, the next revision of the DMCA will ensure that unless your MP3 is properly licensed (with the proper fees paid to the appropriate RIAA members), owning a copy of the CD will be meaningless with regard to the legality of a MP3 if it contains copyrighted material.

Bahamut X
Premium
join:2000-12-09
Arlington, TX
clubs:

said by Nightfall See Profile:
When you buy a piece of software, you can't give a copy to a friend LEGALLY.

Actually.. yes you can..

provided you are not going to use that software anymore, you can do whatever the heck you want with it...

I understand what point you where attempting to make, but yet you leave such a glaring loophole in your statement...
--
"The power of the printing press belongs solely to those who own the presses" —A.J. LeiblingThe Internet is the cheapest printing press ever invented.-DSL Prime

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

Yes, given that you destroy the original. It's a right of "first sale" as pointed out in another thread. But you couldn't give a copy to a friend but also keep a copy you use for yourself.
--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.

bear73
Metnav... Fly The Unfriendly Skies
Premium
join:2001-06-09
Grand Forks Afb, ND
·Midcontinent Commu..

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

I've never read anywhere in any EULA that there was a restriction on WHERE your backup was kept. Only that the licence holder/owner was the only one allowed to use teh software on 1 machine (unless the company is "kind"). I have all my software in an alternate location so if my house is broken into or there's a fire, I don't lose it all.
--
If ya gotta go, Go with a SMILE!

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Re: Bitch all you want....it is still piracy.

It's not in the EULA, it's in Title 17, Fair Use. The backup must be for PERSONAL use. You can keep it anywhere you want, but it must not be used by anyone else.
--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
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said by Bahamut X See Profile:
said by Nightfall See Profile:
When you buy a piece of software, you can't give a copy to a friend LEGALLY.

Actually.. yes you can..

provided you are not going to use that software anymore, you can do whatever the heck you want with it...

I understand what point you where attempting to make, but yet you leave such a glaring loophole in your statement...

Uh....

I didn't think I needed to fill in every minor detail. I thought others here had the common sense to fill those in. Yes, it is legal to give to a friend...if you aren't going to use it anymore. It is legal for you to sell to someone else. It isn't legal to give copies out to multiple people or to one person while you continue to use it.

Please don't nitpick. :P
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal

untroubled1
Redneck Dawg
Premium
join:2001-12-21
Omaha, NE
AND....I post all my CDs to the newsgroups.lol. Not to mention Mirc and MSN messenger and ICQ. Come see me RIAA!!!! (Pack A Lunch) you will be counting RETAIL CDs for a while...hahahahaha

rit56

join:2000-12-01
New York, NY

read this

todays LA Times 1/31/03

Verizon Made Offer to Name Some Names

Related Stories

Verizon Told to Identify Music File Swapper
January 22, 2003

VERIZON
FILE SWAPPING

By Jon Healey, Times Staff Writer

Verizon Communications Inc. has portrayed itself as the great protector of consumer rights in its legal battle with the giant music companies, declaring that no one accused of piracy should lose the right to privacy.

Unless, of course, Verizon can help its case by naming a few names for the Recording Industry Assn. of America.

"Verizon will use every legal means to protect its subscribers' privacy," Deputy General Counsel John Thorne said Thursday in a news release.

But in negotiations with the RIAA last week, Verizon offered to give up some customers' identities, both sides said. In exchange, Verizon asked the RIAA to support its motion to suspend a ruling by U.S. District Judge John D. Bates to force the nation's largest local phone company to reveal the name of an alleged music pirate. Verizon has appealed.

Thorne said the company made the offer to the RIAA because it's crucial that Bates' ruling not go into effect. If it does, Internet service providers could face an avalanche of subpoenas from those claiming their copyrights were violated online, Thorne said. Verizon also maintains that if Bates' ruling holds, it and other ISPs might have to reveal customer names, addresses and phone numbers to spammers and stalkers.

Among other compromises, Thorne said, Verizon offered to forward letters to customers accused of piracy rather than identify them, and to comply with a limited number of RIAA subpoenas — say, several hundred.

In other words, Verizon was proposing to sacrifice a few customers' privacy to protect many more.

The idea went nowhere, Thorne said, because the RIAA wouldn't accept any limits on subpoenas. In fact, he added, the RIAA proposed an electronic way to speed the identification of subpoenaed customers.

An RIAA official said Verizon seemed most worried about "just how many infringers we thought were on the Verizon network, because they were so concerned about the volume of what they would face."

The official asked that his name not be disclosed.

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Re: read this

And the proof of this is...?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
Yes, that story was linked to by the story you were supposed to read before coming to the comments section. ;0

quote:
The Los Angeles Times reports that Verizon is already happily sacrificing customer privacy by turning over several subscribers' personal information to the RIAA in the hopes of getting the ruling suspended or modified. Verizon had hoped there could be a limit set on the number of RIAA subpoenas they would have to process, but so far no agreement has been reached.

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA


Re: read this

I say again...and the proof of this is....

Just because some hack from the LA Times prints a story, doesn't make it fact. Rather than an LA Times filter it would be nice to see Thorne's comments in context.

--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.

[text was edited by author 2003-01-31 16:43:46]

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

Re: read this

It's inferred that Deputy General Counsel John Thorne admits that Verizon made the offer to the RIAA "because it's crucial that Bates' ruling not go into effect". He could be lying, or it may have been yanked from context. But I may be a french poodle and you may be a commie spy if you really want to get technical about our uncertainties of misrepresentation.....I assume the author isn't lying....based on my experience with Verizon, I'll guess they're covering their asses first, worrying about consumer privacy second....

[text was edited by author 2003-01-31 16:47:54]

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA


Re: read this

I'm referring to the conditions that Verizon would agree to submit to the subpoenas. The LA Times article leaves the impression that Verizon is selling out it's existing customers without proof, without due process as the RIAA is trying to do when that may not in fact be the case. I'm not asking if he is lying...but is this the only reason he claimed...what is the context in which this obvious excerpt of a longer sentence was made. Sorry, but the LA Times is not known for unbiased reporting and they have a long history of manufacturing opinion be the omission of fact.

BTW...I am a commie spy but is neither here nor there.
--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.

[text was edited by author 2003-01-31 16:51:37]

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

Re: read this

Yes, I understand your point. I'd like to see the entire Thorne interview in context. The author claims both sides confirmed the offer, though perhaps he's lying....

We should see what comes out in the wash (if Verizon denies it, or if a deal is struck). My guess is that Verizon ends up striking a self-centered deal that leaves them free of liability while hanging their users out to dry....

It's the safest and most financially sound outcome for everyone's favorite Darth Vader voiced monopoly...

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Re: read this

I can't form an opinion about this "activity" of Verizon without a clearer context of what really happened. Sure, the LA Times makes it out to be that in a secret deal Verizon is offering to sell out customers when in fact there may have been a ton of conditions or prerequisites that Verizon laid out before it would turn a name over, or that only future offenses would be turned over...and only after Verizon notifies customers of a change in privacy policy regarding these activities.

Who knows...but we certainly aren't going to find out from some biased hack at the LA Times.

In the meantime, Verizon is sure spending a lot of money to defend their customers...selfish motives or not...they're doing the right thing in my book. If Verizon does sell out...they will only be the first of ALL ISP's that will end up bending over for the evil forces of the RIAA.
--
Nuclear fission: made in America; tested in Japan.

rit56

join:2000-12-01
New York, NY

proof

write the reporter from the LA Times... the editor felt confident enough from his sources to put it on the front page.if you're impassioned about it you can email Verizons legal department and they can sue the LA Times. that will really draw attention to it...

See 10 replies to this post
npyoung

join:2002-09-23
Jacksonville, OR

Voting for people who will f_ you.

The solution is, don't vote for those that support the RIAA/DMCA. They are easy to out, as they out themselves with their votes. For instance, in my state, Oregon, Senator Gordon Smith distingushed himself by turning "Mad Dog" Ashcroft on his own constituents in this letter. »www.politechbot.com/docs/congres···1002.pdf

Citizens of California will know that their Senator, Dianne Feinstein doesn't represent their interests, as determined by her John Hancock on the above letter.

And so on. You might write them a personal, "Get f..Smart" letter to illuminate them to how you feel about their overly public bootlicking of the DMCA crowd!
ParanoiaInc

join:2002-08-28
Tucker, GA

Still Amazed at the blundering idiots (RIAA/MPA)

While the lawyers for the RIAA and MPA try to bully the ISP's and LECs into revealing their customers that they claim are downloading content they didn't pay for, they are completely ignoring the fact that these businesses themselves are probably the biggest violators of copyright infringement and have been conducting such activities well before P2P was in existence.

I've chimed on the note of NNTP before, but anything that has previously replied simply stated to 'shhh, keep quiet' or 'what's NNTP'? For those that do not know, NNTP is Network News Transport Protocol. Imagine it to be something like a old-timer's forum, text-based, and using the same communication set under TCP/IP.

Unless you are special, your ISP provides some sort of basic NNTP service. And, with the right software (e.g. Outlook Express, Xnews, FreeAgent, Gravity, etc.) you can access an NNTP server provided by your ISP. What you will find upon initializing the groups list is that as many as 60,000 newsgroups (or more) on various subjects and in various languages.

In general, NNTP is not a threat. But there are some newsgroups that cater to the posting of binaries, or binary files. A binary file is one in which usually someone wishes to post an encoded file that may span several parts because of its size. On some binary posts and in some newsgroups the file sizes can be tremendous, and the content can include software, still images, video, music, and other forms of traditionally non-text content.

The NNTP protocol has been used to transport content for almost a decade (maybe longer, and specifically binaries, here). I, myself, downloaded binaries back in 1993, which was before Napster and the idea of music trading. Still, if you want a music track of whole CD of music you can post your request and usually someone that has it, familiar with NNTP, will usually do you the favor and post it.

Still, I am surprised that these entities that are bitching are illustrating that they are completely ignorant, or uninterested, in the NNTP caravan of illegal content trading of copyright materials. No, I am not the moral majority. No, I am not trying to shut down the NNTP service or the get the ISP's into worse financial trouble (via RIAA and/or MPA law suits upon them), but merely to illustrate that the idiots causing the hub-bub about P2P (i.e. downloading and trading of copyright materials) has been going on for a longer period of time.

Let's not assume or forward the idiot notion that Kazaa servers are maintaining huge server-based storage farms for storing Terabytes of copyright materials (as far as I know, that's BS!), while the likes of NNTP servers at any NNTP service provider and many ISP's have been seemingly duping the dopes at the RIAA and MPA for much longer.

Of course, this could all change once the end users are put in jail (the remaining Americans that are not locked up will of course see our taxes go up to house the millions of Americans put in prison for their P2P actitivies while the MPA and RIAA complain then that no one is buying their stuff) and the only focus of their bordom and target for their inept business decisions is to blame the NNTP providers.

I find it insulting that not one of these bimbo's for both camps have not once entertained a critical interview, by and intelligent investigator, and in full lime-light for public discern. Of course, the MPA and RIAA doesn't want the horse's ass on television showing just how stupid they are. God, Fox could almost create a prime-time real-tv show on these kinds of interviews, and maybe they can call the the show Donkey TV.
Rash
Ouch
Premium
join:2002-09-27
Walkersville, MD
clubs:

Re: Still Amazed at the blundering idiots (RIAA/MPA)

Oh your right that file trading has been going on for a long time before P2P. I ran a BBS back in the 80's, file trading was just as prevalent then as it is now just it has more media attention now. I remember when Sierra and the like were crying a river saying "with all the software piracy going on we will not be able to stay a competitive company" hmm look at all the software companies around today. If you offer a good product worth buying people will buy it period.

I prefer to buy my software and music now just because I like to have the security of an legal copy when I need to upgrade or what have you, but I CAN NOT stand RIAA or any group that is circumventing the constitution by swaying senators and congressmen who have no idea what they are doing or the impact that they are going to have on our future privacy. If the RIAA's facts are right the music industry should have been bankrupt weeks....no years ago.

It is a sad day in America when we are wasting millions of dollars in court trying to coerce an ISP into releasing the names of it's customers to a PRIVATE organization, what a laugh it would be if this horrible person who it would seem warrants the death penalty or at least exile to a small country where the locals only speak pig Latin and wipe with one hand and eat with the other, turns out to be a 10 year old "pirate".;)

priznut
Blah Blah

join:2002-05-08
San Francisco, CA

capitalism at work

all I have to say is..

the people who are sharing are doing something wrong

and the people spying on them are doing something wrong..

whose going win....more likely the ones with the big wallets

American capitalism at its work

Nastygram Recipient

@ct.di

Meet the Enemy of Privacy?

So the Big Man who can see into everyone's hard drives thinks he can hide behind a PO box eh?

Anyone with a little internet search saavy can find this on our 'mystery man' and his company:

Baytsp
Route 17
Los Gatos, CA 95030
(408)399-0600

and the owner of the company:

Mark M Ishikawa
LIMEKILN CANYON RD
Los Gatos, CA 95030
home Phone: (408)399-4391

Now you can all call him and ask him how he feels about privacy.
elleroth

join:2002-02-18
Orlando, FL

Re: Meet the Enemy of Privacy?

Maybe I'll decide to be an ass some day and buy a phone card and give them a call from a payphone...in another city, of course. ;P And maybe I'll be drunk too so I can be RRRREEEEAAAALLLY obnoxious. =P
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