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Clash of the Egos
ISP's brood while FCC feuds

The entire telecom industry stands semi-patiently waiting while two members of the FCC, Chairman Michael Powell and commissioner Kevin Martin bump egos in their quest to revamp the country's broadband regulatory guidelines. Disagreements among commissioners over Powell's master plan delayed a vote last week, which has been rescheduled for Thursday (assuming the FCC can get along). Reports claim that so far neither Powell or Martin are budging.

As noted by the New York Post last week, Washington insiders aren't impressed with the internal scuffling at the FCC, particularly as the telecom economy continues to sag in the middle, and independent ISP's stand waiting for revised legislation that could decide their economic future.

The Post threw out some great quotes from Washington Telecom insiders that all shared the same insulting timbre. "Powell's infected with the notion he's a great man with great ideas, and Martin thinks he's the chairman. It's that simple" said one source. "You've got a chairman and a wannabe chairman," said another.

Commissioner Kevin Martin threw a wrench in the works last week by deciding to side with the FCC's two democratic commissioners, forcing Powell to delay the vote to avoid being out-voted. As we mentioned last week, Powell is focused on courting Jonathan Adelstein, the FCC's newest member, as a "vital third vote on some issues where Martin would dissent."

While Powell and Martin fundamentally agree that the telecom sector should be deregulated, their disagreement centers around how drastically and how quickly this should happen, and the level of power that should be held by the states. One of Powell's many goals is to remove the states' authority to set wholesale rates and instead vest such decisions with the FCC.

What happens next is anyone's guess, and everyone is certainly busy guessing.

Blair Levin, a former FCC chief of staff, believes that the dispute will likely end with the RBOCS taking home the pretty girl; regulators lifting or at the very least easing regulation requiring incumbents to share their networks at wholesale prices.

Robert Rosenberg, president of research firm Insight Corp, speaking to the New Jersey Star Ledger, sees the end result being not entirely unlike the airline industry: "You will have two or three, very big, very sick companies."

The Wall Street Journal today reports that Powell and Martin are engaged in "intensive negotiations" over their differences; the Los Angeles Times claiming that Powell barely budged during negotiations this past weekend. In fact Powell's 400 page proposed order, rejected by three out of the five commissioners, remains on the table and completely unedited just two days before a vote.

"It's incredible to be sitting here today and not yet have the chairman's office rewriting the order with only days to go before the vote," reports an anonymous source to the Times. "Powell is entrenched. He's dug in and is unwilling to compromise."

The FCC PR team has been dead silent on the conflict, and the commissioners themselves are not allowed to comment.
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Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Oh Oh Oh how good it will feel on Thurday

I really would be worried if I was an ISP/Clec now! I bet they will come to an agreement leaving existing customers for about 2 years on existing une-p then pulling the plug. Any new accounts will be at the new pricing.

Oh yea the time we been waiting for is near my friends
youngmoore
join:2001-03-16
Marietta, GA

youngmoore

Member

Re: Oh Oh Oh how good it will feel on Thurday

I'm not sure what everyone is really waiting for. We all know now that the FCC is bought and paid for by the ILEC's. I just wonder just how screwed we consumers are going to be. Will we all be stuck on PPPoE? If people want to run servers and need a biz account to do it will they also have to pay bell 90 bucks a month just for phone line they will never use? I feel dark days head
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: Oh Oh Oh how good it will feel on Thurday

You can have static ip's with bell. I remember when alot of us paid over $20 dollars for dialup and there was no 56k modem. About the phone line I agree with you but the cable company from what I know will not let you have broadband internet unless you have atleast cable in your home.

I dont know how many people are running servers but I would say a hell of a lot less that just need a internet connection. Things could change with billing and maybe how you obtain and ip but I really dont think bells are going back to dynamic. You can buy a cheap 4 port router for $39 to get around log in software.

Good Luck
cableblows3
join:2001-06-17
Indianapolis, IN

cableblows3

Member

Re: Oh Oh Oh how good it will feel on Thurday

WRONG! here in indy anyway you can have either or!
the cost is stupid (39.94 tv)( 49.95 broadband ) a month but it is a steady 15 to 1900kbps
on the bright side thers a new cable company coming to town T/W and days of sticking it to your customers are over

garagerock
Premium Member
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY

1 recommendation

garagerock to youngmoore

Premium Member

to youngmoore
Yes, I'd like someone to explain how this is going to be good for everyone.

Oh right-it won't be good for anyone who doesn't work for Ma Bell. I forgot!
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: Oh Oh Oh how good it will feel on Thurday

In your situation;

If this une-p deregulation goes through what will it mean to you? relate it to everyday goods and sevices we buy and explain how you and I mean you will suffer!

garagerock
Premium Member
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY

garagerock

Premium Member

Re: Oh Oh Oh how good it will feel on Thurday

said by Gordon Gekko:
In your situation;

If this une-p deregulation goes through what will it mean to you? relate it to everyday goods and sevices we buy and explain how you and I mean you will suffer!
If for he what now??
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: Oh Oh Oh how good it will feel on Thurday

sounds like a personal problem. Go to kmart and buy rattle.

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium Member
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Go Chargers7 to garagerock

Premium Member

to garagerock
said by garagerock:
Yes, I'd like someone to explain how this is going to be good for everyone.

Oh right-it won't be good for anyone who doesn't work for Ma Bell. I forgot!
It's only good for telco shills like Gordon Gekko, or whatever his screen name of the week is.

garagerock
Premium Member
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY

garagerock

Premium Member

Re: Oh Oh Oh how good it will feel on Thurday

said by Go Chargers7:
said by garagerock:
Yes, I'd like someone to explain how this is going to be good for everyone.

Oh right-it won't be good for anyone who doesn't work for Ma Bell. I forgot!
It's only good for telco kiss-ass shills like Gordon Gekko, or whatever his screen name of the week is.

Agreed.
kauiman3
join:2002-08-16
Redondo Beach, CA

kauiman3

Member

Arkansas is SBC's slave

Interesting comment from our friend in Arkansas. A state where the Utility Commission bends over everytime SBC wants them too. I feel sorry for the actual consumers in Arkansas. If it wasn't for other States y'all still be waiting for DSL.

If the FCC fully deregulates, small business's in America will not be able to get SDSL at reasonable rate, VOIP etc. Leaving them victims to the Telco's T1 price gouging and overpriced Business lines. Since over 80% of America works for small business's, even in Arkansas, this is really going to hurt ALL AMERICANS. Just to save a few Telco jobs.
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: Arkansas is SBC's slave

**Not a good answer, how do you know that these things will be overpriced? They deregulated telephone and look at the pricing now!

*By the way who is buying equipment in the telecom sector now? I think not too many clecs/isp. most will be pink sheets soon.

*Not a good answer! How does this effect you???????????

By the way, Both Martin and Powell believe some regulation must occur!
jonnyzor
join:2002-07-28
San Jose, CA

jonnyzor

Member

Re: Arkansas is SBC's slave

That is a very good point about the phone service. We know that degregulation is going to happen. Let's hope that the bells will be responsible and share their lines.
LostMile
Premium Member
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI

LostMile to Gordon Gekko

Premium Member

to Gordon Gekko
said by Gordon Gekko:
... how do you know that these things will be overpriced? They deregulated telephone and look at the pricing now!
That's right! Look at the pricing now!
Before I bought my 2-way sat dish, SBC quoted me $180/mo for ISDN service (tax and ISP not included). That's not overpriced for 128kb up/down?
Don't believe it could be that high? Call and check. 269-468-xxxx and 19K' from the CO.
Nah, they're not overpriced!
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: Arkansas is SBC's slave

When did you do this? and 19000 ft is really far out, you would be lucky to get 192 at that distance.

sstteer
@optonline.net

1 recommendation

sstteer

Anon

Gordon Gekko = SBC employee or lobbyist

Gordon its painfully obvious that you are either a SBC (or other ILEC) employee or a lobbyist for them.

The simple fact is that DSL wouldnt exist even near its present form today unless there was the telcom act of 96. They could have rolled out DSL in the 80's but why do that when they were making a fortune off of $1500 T1's and metered per-minute ISDN.

Who wants to bet Powell will go work for either a lobby group or an ILEC after he gets out of office. There should be a law against it.

They need to give more time to this, its very poor timing with the economy as it is, and sure, the CLEC's did a poor job of burning through piles of cash, but I think everyone has learned their lesson...

- S
LostMile
Premium Member
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI

LostMile to Gordon Gekko

Premium Member

to Gordon Gekko

Re: Arkansas is SBC's slave

said by Gordon Gekko:
When did you do this? and 19000 ft is really far out, you would be lucky to get 192 at that distance.
ISDN is not subject to the same limitations as DSL.
liquidlght
Premium Member
join:2002-09-16
Saint Louis, MO

liquidlght to LostMile

Premium Member

to LostMile
said by LostMile:

That's right! Look at the pricing now!
Before I bought my 2-way sat dish, SBC quoted me $180/mo for ISDN service (tax and ISP not included). That's not overpriced for 128kb up/down?
Don't believe it could be that high? Call and check. 269-468-xxxx and 19K' from the CO.
Nah, they're not overpriced!

there is a very big difference in isdn and dsl, namely that isdn line was more than likely provided out of a co over 20miles away and relayed to the co for your address. i know thats how isdn was in MO in the past. the high cost was from the being outside the main metro area the service started at.
also i bet the tn that would have been assigned would have been long distance to your local area BUT local to the metro area you would have had to dail to for internet anyway. again this was how MO was 3 years ago it may have changed
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko to kauiman3

Member

to kauiman3

California Boy "Kauiman" your stupid

1.What the hell Does other state have to do we me having DSL?

2.Look At Oklahoma now, they are benefiting from state deregulations.

3.why would 80% of business need all those services anyway. If you have a business and need goods and services they pay fair market value. Same with broadband now and if you want something special like 1 static ip you will just have to pay more cause your special.

Why do you think the telecom sector is down right now? blame the telco's right. their not buying as much equipment from alcatel, cisco, jnpr, cmtn and other equipment makers.
there is just too much (roi) here.

Powell and Martin knows this and there should be some deregulation coming.

But ofcourse your from California and you know everything.

and you see my post and blame arkansas. I have lived everywhere including califonia and I was not impressed ok ja!
[text was edited by author 2003-02-18 14:39:46]

[text was edited by author 2003-02-18 14:40:51]

[text was edited by author 2003-02-18 14:55:41]
Gordon Gekko

Gordon Gekko

Member

covad looks like they are ok ,but not the other's

The Federal Communications Commission is expected to vote next Thursday on a three-year review of the Baby Bells' unbundled network. The unbundled network is a part of a phone company's grid that, according to the '96 Telecom Act, is required to be leased to competitors at discounts.

The FCC, led by Michael Powell, Secretary of State Colin Powell's son, wants to phase this requirement out.

This phase-out decision of discounts would ostensibly raise the prices on companies who've enjoyed the lower rates that the local Bell companies argue is a money-losing proposition for them.

Among the companies that could see higher costs are Earthlink (ELNK: news, chart, profile) and AOL Time Warner (AOL: news, chart, profile).

These two ISPs lease lines from Baby Bells and wholesale providers of DSL, like Covad Communications (COVD: news, chart, profile), said Youssef Squali, an analyst at First Albany. Squali said that providers of dial-up access, like United Online (UNTD: news, chart, profile), are less likely to be hurt, because the FCC's rule changes would affect DSL providers.

Shares of Covad rose 2 percent to $1.13. Earthlink lost 2 percent to $4.94; AOL added 10 percent to $10.27. United Online inched up 1 cent to $14.18.

But analysts don't expect Covad's business to change. Covad, which has the largest nationwide footprint of DSL providers, is a facilities-based provider, which means it buys and deploys its own switches and its network. Covad does not depend on the unbundled networks that are sold at discounts.

Raybro
join:2000-11-04
Back home

Raybro

Member

Re: covad looks like they are ok ,but not the other's

said by Gordon Gekko:
Covad does not depend on the unbundled networks that are sold at discounts.
That is incorrect. Covad purchases UNE-L from the ILECS. The ruling is going to affect UNE-P.
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

nasadude

Member

well...

If Powell gets his way, I figure we're screwed. In areas where there is no competition from cable internet, look for increased DSL prices. There is nothing in any of the FCC rules being contemplated that forces the ILECs to build out their networks; if you think the ILECs are going to go on a spending binge to roll out fiber or build out new areas, I have a bridge I would like to sell you (it's in Brooklyn). Look for the U.S. to join the third world as far as broadband goes (higher prices, slower speeds, limited availability).

On the other hand, if the Martin group wins, there is some possibility that there will be expanded coverage and more competition. If the ILECs are freed from sharing NEW facilities (fiber), this could incentivize them to build out more fiber. In the meantime, you still have the CLECs to provide competition and keep prices on existing services down. Unfortunately, I don't really expect the ILECs to start building fiber or any doing any other improvements anytime soon. If they had really wanted to do this, it could have been done long ago, before they fell so far behind cable in provided internet (and before the economy tanked).

Basically, I think we are screwed no matter what happens, it's just a matter of how long: if Powell wins, we'll be screwed for a long time; if Martin wins we're still screwed, but probably only until the economy starts to get better again.
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: well...

I dont agree,

There are remote terminals being used now by telco's in area's that are farther then a co based circuit could provide. There are customers on these remotes at this moment working and getting great speeds and no increase on prices. I think we need to look at that. I do believe that no one has made a profit yet on dsl and there needs to be a profit. deregulation will help and you will see. You as a consumer can go to xyz isp and still get service but it may cost more. In the end the consumer will get what he wants.
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

nasadude

Member

Re: well...

There is an old saying: you can get anything for the right price. If I was prepared to pay $100/mo (or more) for service, I wouldn't be worried at all about getting broadband. Hell, anyone can get a T1 line to their house if you want to pay the price.

And I beg to differ with your statement "In the end the consumer will get what he wants". When the service provider is a monopoly the consumer will get what the monopoly provides and no more.
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: well...

sure they will. If you can have allt he bells and wistles with your isp, You will just pay more
beannet6
join:2001-03-31
Chicago, IL

beannet6

Member

gordon gecko....

the market will suffer if competition is not allowed to thrive, much in the same way it does when bill gates tightens the wrench around the neck of any of his competitors. innovation will be stifled, and service will suffer. these monopolies look at support and customer service as nothing more than a cost that must be cut in order to enhance profits. and, since nobody will be there to provide a better service, the incumbents will have to reason to make service any better. you can forget about unique innovations like RADSL coming to the home markets anytime soon if incumbent RBOCs have their way....
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: gordon gecko....

I dont agree.,

Once une-p is out then investment dollars will start flowing to the companies that can do the job. You will see companies do more R&D and bring more innovations. There is no need to invest in leaches. Since 1996 clecs have had their opportunity to do something and they have done nothing. If you want to continue to use earthlink or aol or some independent isp you can. Hey look walmart ran all the small retailers out. why cant I go to the FTC and see if they will let me sell in walmart at half the cost? Or hey Maybe I can go to the FAA and say hey I want to be able to use Continental and say Southwest and want to be able to fly and have them maintain the planes for my customers at half price. I think I could afford to offer steak on the planes free...........Lets all debate
[text was edited by author 2003-02-18 17:37:17]
beannet6
join:2001-03-31
Chicago, IL

beannet6

Member

Re: gordon gecko....

some of us providers DO everything we can to stay in a market, but anti-competitive conditions, such as the ones we are subject to by the monopolies, make it difficult, if not impossible to stay in the market. is it because of our inefficiency? no. is it because of our service? no, our customers love us.

it IS because of incumbent telcos doing sneaky things like:

1) offering ADSL direct to the end user for LESS than they charge us for a wholesale loop (read sbc yahoo dsl)

2) they don't update our prequal databases, i have lost several sales over sbc telling the customer they are 11k feet from the co, even though sbc's wholesale database tells me 13k.

since the incumbents don't know how to compete, it is up to the government to leave regulation in place until such time as the incumbents learn how to compete in a free market.
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: gordon gecko....

So Your saying SBC customers have a fair advantage. I will tell that SBC treat everyone fair and that what you says is not all . All customers including Sbis go off the same database saying customers are within distance only to find out after doing testing that the line will not support it. Now your next choice is to build a network that fits your needs. and lets compete on the infrastructure side.
[text was edited by author 2003-02-18 17:59:32]
beannet6
join:2001-03-31
Chicago, IL

beannet6

Member

Re: gordon gecko....

no, i am saying that sbc has an unfair advantage in that they know how far a customer is from the central office, and LIE to smaller providers like bean.net about how far the customer is from the co. they LIE by not updating the database we pull off of for the information. they keep the more updated central office information for their own operators, leading to yet another unfair competitive advantage.

additionally SBC lies and tells WCOM/Rhythms, our partners in the DSL game, that their software isn't the same as ours, and that they can not hotswap DirecTV circuits because of this difference in software. and yet, DirecTV has told all of its customers that SBC can, in fact, do a hotswap, and encourages it. SOMEONE is lying here, and it ain't me!
liquidlght
Premium Member
join:2002-09-16
Saint Louis, MO

liquidlght

Premium Member

Re: gordon gecko....

please explain more on what you mean by hotswap. ie using the same modem and software ant the eu location or redirecting the atm path for the new isp.

directv's hardware setup the pppoe session and though there may have been a way to manually change the settings on the gateway. dirtv always had to force the modem settings over the network so it may have been more hasle to do it that way.

if your talking about redirecting the atm path, there are legal issue that are above me that make sbc take the line out of bill and other systems first before putting them to a different isp.

DSLviper
join:2003-01-10

DSLviper to Gordon Gekko

Member

to Gordon Gekko
Quote- Since 1996 clecs have had their opportunity to do something and they have done nothing

Gordon,
You must work for SBC:) I think when you say the CLEC's have done nothing, you mean, they can't do anything because of the Ilecs. How hard did the Bells make it for CLEC's to survive since 1996? How many have gone out of business because of the Ilecs "Hard to do business" attitude (this is just my opinion, no proof to back it up)
How long did it take Ma Bell to build the infastructure the phone companies have today? How long would it take a CLEC to build this same structure?? By the time any company could come up with the funding to build this network, the current technology will be obsolete. I see both sides of this arguement, but Bell is being a big baby, with their threats of not building out there network unless things go their way. I aggree with Martin's outlook on this. Dont let CLECs have access to the new infastructure that Bells build (this will give them the push to build there own networks to compete with them). Bell should understand if they get that ruling, then they still have the monopoly to those RT's, until Clecs jump and build.
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko

Member

Re: gordon gecko....

Well I can agree with ya on that. I think that is what will happen that clecs will not have access to new networks at reduced cost. I do think there is a battle right now with the time limits on the networks being used now.
[text was edited by author 2003-02-18 18:16:17]

richb01803
Rich
join:2001-02-14
02100

richb01803 to Gordon Gekko

Member

to Gordon Gekko
said by Gordon Gekko:
Once une-p is out then investment dollars will start flowing to the companies that can do the job. You will see companies do more R&D and bring more innovations.
Nope, can't be done. The RBOCs' position is essentially "let 'em build their own". The government, however, controls the property rights required to build alternative networks.

And it's not the federal government. It's the myriad city and town governments that control access to conduits, telephone poles and other rights of way. It takes decades to build a ubiquitous network.

Unless the FCC miraculously comes up with a way to assure that a return on the investment dollars that you speak of, there won't be any investment dollars. By the Bells or by their competitors.

And that, my friend, is going to be what happens here in the USA pretty much regardless of what the FCC does tomorrow. A continuation of the telecom crash for years to come, along with loss of jobs and everything else we've wanted in this industry.

••••••
Gordon Gekko
join:2003-02-18
North Little Rock, AR

Gordon Gekko to beannet6

Member

to beannet6
Also your average consumer will not need services higher the 1.5 as of yet. I do know that some private isp will not offer residential dsl and are basically cherry picken businesses. Now we all know that if your going to those high of services the clec/isp can coax the full amout of that line out of the business consumer who wants this particular isp. I see no problem with the isp's offering radsl! right? If I am wrong tell me why?

••••••••••

Go Chargers7
Fa Shizzle Ma Nizzle
Premium Member
join:2002-09-24
Huntington Beach, CA

Go Chargers7 to beannet6

Premium Member

to beannet6
Turning loose the telco will only mean higher prices and even more crappy service.
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

nasadude

Member

forgot to mention

I forgot to mention that my sole choice for broadband is cable, so I have no choice. And dial-up is not broadband.

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