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Broadband for Podunk, USA
Rural America weighs their options
by bistro777 Thursday 10-Jul-2003 tags: business
Tipped by Karl Bode See Profile
In rural America, many residents don't have high speed internet access, a problem Washington lawmakers and businesses are looking to solve, each in their own way. As we've mentioned in the past, a large push is coming from (of all places) the Department of Agriculture, with the Rural Utilities Service providing loans for the deployment of broadband Internet service to under-served communities with fewer than 20,000 residents.

In January of this year, Agriculture Secretary Ann M. Veneman promised $1.4 billion in loans and loan guarantees to rural telecommunications providers. According to the Washington Post, the government is reviewing 29 applications to ensure their business cases are sound. The deadline for applications is July 31.

Rural broadband providers have an uphill battle. While they're happy to try and provide service in locations the incumbents are unwilling to go, distance issues and higher fees make it a tall order. As the Post article explores, Pure Internet Inc. in Virginia has 40 broadband customers and 1,000 on dial-up. Profit won't be coming any time soon, since, according to the business owner, it takes $600 to set up a single wireless customer, and 10 months for that connection to pay for itself.

To that end, the Rural Broadband Coalition was recently founded to help ISPs take advantage of the money available via the broadband program of the Rural Utility Service (RUS), a service of the US Department of Agriculture. Hidden within the Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002 is $20 million in federal funds allocated to finance broadband service in rural communities.

Bigger players, like SBC, have made promises to bring service to many of these under-served areas, but only if state regulators give them the keys to the kingdom and sign-on to the concept of no state level regulatory oversight. Many states, like Oklahoma, are agreeing; believing that perhaps unregulated and potentially monopolistic broadband is better than no broadband at all.

SBC competitors complained loudly over the passage of a bill they say gave SBC free reign in exchange for empty promises to rural customers. Others equated SBC's tactics to digital extortion, while some Oklahoma lawmakers warned other states considering the legislation that Oklahoma had essentially been swindled.

SBC doesn't see it that way, and claims their rollout of rural broadband in Oklahoma is on track, with 37 towns set to receive service for the first time, and another 25 towns set to see expansion of existing service.

So essentially, what happens if a rural community or rural ISP doesn't qualify for government assistance? What happens if their state lawmakers decide not to eliminate their powers of oversight, in turn pissing off the incumbent telcos that claim they so desperately want to help develop rural areas (for a price, nudge, nudge, wink wink)? They either go municipal, or they wait.

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reub2000
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Evanston, IL

They actualy think SBC will do anything?

I remember a site about how the bells had told some states, that of they where deregulated, they'd roll out fiber optics. I think history is going to repeat itself.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-10 11:38:38]

ronpin
Imagine Reality

join:2002-12-06
Nirvana

Re: They actualy think SBC will do anything?

If a small town has any kind of residential area of say at least 1000 city lot-sized homes and access to a T3 or better backbone I have found that a small FTTH ISP can make money; if they take a bare bones approach. A simple SBA loan is enough to get started.

Smokey
I'd rather be skiing
Premium
join:2003-05-20
Wild West

Re: They actualy think SBC will do anything?

LOL it has worked in Idaho!! they have some of the best fiber out there!

Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL
"pissing off the incumbent telco that so desperately wants to help develop rural areas? They either go municipal, or they wait."

Pissing off the incumbent that wants desperately to develop rural areas??? Who ARE these incumbents jumping in to help rural areas? Where have they been? Why do people think grants and incentives are being given out to ANYONE who is willing to help residents in rural areas to become "developed" (get broadband)?

More and more rural areas are going the municipal route every day because they have been ignored by the ILECS FAR too long. Municipalities are also taking advantage of grants being given out to develop their communities.

The ILEC in my area (SBC) must still think that the Tri-City area I live in is not worthy enough to service with DSL because all CANNOT get that service here. We have over 75K people in the area. EVEN after promising to rollout all DSL service to everyone in the Tri-Cities after our referendum in April 2003 which defeated a municipal broadband bid, nothing has changed here. I still can't get DSL. And SBC supposedly had 98% coverage here??? I don't think so.....

zabes63

join:2003-04-05
Batavia, IL

Re: They actualy think SBC will do anything?

Forget about rural areas. I don't see SBC bringing broadband to suburbia anytime soon.
--
Click here to visit Tri-City Broadband

dslwanter
It's coming
Premium
join:2002-12-16
Niles, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T Midwest
Oklahoma is not the only state with rural land, so why does SBC think they're making themselves look good? You mean to tell me that rural, farm land areas, that can't even be considered small towns are getting DSL before my "small" town in Ohio, which has more population than the rural area in Oklahoma? Makes a lot of sense let me tell you.
============================================================
"It's time for a nationwide Cable or DSL Broadband Service, sure the price may come down, but more importantly, EVERYONE could get it!"
============================================================

AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium
join:2002-09-06
Houston, TX
kudos:6

said by reub2000:
I remember a site about how the bells had told some states, that of they where deregulated, they'd roll out fiber optics. I think history is going to repeat itself.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-10 11:38:38]

So when exactly did deregulation occur? Telcos are still regulated in all states.

powerhog
Stinkin' up the joint
Premium
join:2000-12-14
Owasso, OK

Big-city folks vs rural America

Ignore what it says in my profile about SBC as I can't figure out how to change that info... Would be nice if my ILEC (not SBC) would even offer ISDN.

Dang! 20,000 people is a LARGE city for rural America. Doesn't look like I'll see any kind of broadband very soon.
2farfromCO7

join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Don't buy SBC's rural spin. Rural areas are hardly SBC's only problem right now. They can't even make DSL available for 75% of the INNER SUBURBAN populations. I will make sure that SBC loses money on my phone line until they make an investment. I got my last month of POTS + dialup for free, this month I'll GET PAID $12 TO TAKE IT, next month I'll get paid $2 to take my POTS and dial-up. Then I might take an SBC bribe back offer, and switch back out when the credits are over. Nobody is going to make money from my phone line.

Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Since SBC owns all the lines here and we don't want one flat dime going to them.....try Vonage. Gotta love 'em!

get_the_idea

@198.214.x.x

thumbs down from:
batageek See Profile

Since when did it become your phone line??? Did they let you run a pair of wires to the nearest CO and let you wire it in????? Wow....thats pretty nice. Everyone loves to bitch about SBC, but no one realizes how much this corporation has done for us. No company has the means to offer every single household broadband. But SBC is the only company truly expanding their network and constantly upgrading existing systems. They didn't become the #1 rated telecommunications company by just screwing customers like everyone claims.

dslwanter
It's coming
Premium
join:2002-12-16
Niles, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T Midwest

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

said by get_the_idea:
Everyone loves to bitch about SBC, but no one realizes how much this corporation has done for us. No company has the means to offer every single household broadband. But SBC is the only company truly expanding their network and constantly upgrading existing systems.
I will admit SBC is a good company, but I disagree that they are giving it their all in expanding Broadband availability. I think I should have the right to love to "B*tch" about SBC if:
1) I called them a year ago in June 2002, they lady told me DSL will be available within a month and here we are in July 2003, I still can't get DSL

2) I called again in January, then all of the sudden they do not know when DSL will be available

I smell a rat, SBC might be lieing to customers to drag them on about DSL. And if I call them one more time and they give me a deadline and it's not out by then, when it does come out, SBC yahoo will not be the provider I go with.

============================================================
"It's time for a nationwide Cable or DSL Broadband Service, sure the price may come down, but more importantly, EVERYONE could get it!"
============================================================

You_didnt

@uu.net
Where did you get the idea that the phone lines belong to SBC? The one thing that SBC never seems to mention is that tax dollars were used to help fund setting up the phone network. The problem here is that SBC is getting to be too much like AT&T was before the breakup. You want a phone and/or high speed internet access? You deal with us, you pay whatever we charge you, otherwise you do without.

I would also like to know exactly what SBC has done for me other than trying to screw me every chance it gets.

Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL
SHILL ALERT SHILL ALERT!!!!!
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

said by Octopussy2:
SHILL ALERT SHILL ALERT!!!!!
My My, that's constructive... *sigh*
--
root@localhost# cat /var/log/messages

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

It's true though, sounded like a defense plea for SBC or something lol
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

said by RR Conductor:
It's true though, sounded like a defense plea for SBC or something lol
Ahh, but responses like that make it clear that language and debate skills are in a decline... God save me when I'm teaching tomorrow's generation!
--
root@localhost# cat /var/log/messages

Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Nothing is wrong with my debate skills. Just calling them like I see them. I have plenty to say further up and further on down the line....

As you can see "get_the_idea" doesn't even bother to register. Yeah, I get the idea.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-10 21:52:05]
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

said by Octopussy2:
Nothing is wrong with my debate skills. Just calling them like I see them. I have plenty to say futhur up and futhur on down the line....
The prove it and argue based on the merits... Yelling out names, even if they prove to be true does nothing. Use facts, take them on point by point and show the flaws in that posters reasoning. Name calling does exactly as I said, it makes people view you as a poor debater because it requires no skills to point fingers and yell names.

Take him on.
--
root@localhost# cat /var/log/messages

WhyADuck
Premium
join:2003-03-05

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Let me guess... your occupation is a teacher? Well, regardless, he got his point across in four words, and said what I was about to say, except it would have probably taken me four paragraphs to do it. So I think maybe you should keep your criticism to yourself, because this ain't your classroom.
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Nope not my lecture podium, but its a site for intelligent conversation...

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Intelligent can be interpreted many ways
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

True, but saying something USEFUL is usually a requirement for it to be intelligent... And name calling, well, I don't know how that's intelligent, but if that floats your boat, I've got a great book of one liners, name calling and such from the late 1960s (I think) that you might enjoy.
--
root@localhost# cat /var/log/messages

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Useful can also be debated, sorry, couldn't help it lol
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Sorry can be debated...

Anything can be debated.

Useful means it usually contributed some information though. That shill statement must have come from Captain Obvious (yeah, yeah, but its true) because you could tell the poster was ABSOLUTELY pro telco, as if there is something wrong with that when you compare some telcos to some cable companies.
--
root@localhost# cat /var/log/messages

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1
I really don't think you have a right to judge the guy from that one post, yeesh, get off of your high horse man!
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Anyway... *yawn*

It is getting lonely up here after having worked to get up here.

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

High horses are indeed lonely venues--few people desire to talk to you when you are there.

The sooner one learns that, the better off they are.

Calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

If telling people that there are more effective ways of debating that running around yelling "SHILL ALERT" is being on a high horse, then something is seriously wrong.
--
root@localhost# cat /var/log/messages

[text was edited by author 2003-07-12 19:56:43]

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

It's a forum, not a college course, calm down

AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium
join:2002-09-06
Houston, TX
kudos:6
said by Octopussy2:
SHILL ALERT SHILL ALERT!!!!!
A brilliant and masterful refutation of the arguments he made. Bravo, sir, spot on!

Want to try again?

See 22 replies to this post
2farfromCO7

join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
They haven't made 1 improvement on the infrastructure of of the phone line that goes to my DENSE INNER SUBURBAN apartment complex in over 30 years. If they are "truly expanding their network", then they sure are bunch of idiots. My apartment complex(400 units in 1/16 of a sq mile), and only my apartment complex(and one other 5 miles away, can't and won't ever have cable modems available. The apartment complex owns their own cable system. We don't have Comcast, Time Warner or any other major cable sytem. If SBC deployed and RT for DSL for our apartment complex they would get 100% of the broadband market. If they had any intelligence at all they'd have people whose sole job it was to seek out these types of situations and focus all their attention on them. Instead, what do they do? They deploy an RT for an adjacent complex(they do touch), that has cable modems available. IF THEY ARE LUCKY THEY HAVE 40% of the broadband market there. That's bad business, and beyond stupid. So they ignore the areas that should be their gold mines, and instead spend all their money for people who are ditching their land lines for altogether for Vonage in record numbers.

See 12 replies to this post

batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
said by get_the_idea:
Everyone loves to bitch about SBC, but no one realizes how much this corporation has done for us. No company has the means to offer every single household broadband. But SBC is the only company truly expanding their network and constantly upgrading existing systems. They didn't become the #1 rated telecommunications company by just screwing customers like everyone claims.
Absolute BS. I'll let you in on what these dirtballs did in my area.

1. Had the remote equipment in place to offer an expanded reach of dsl, but took it all out so they didn't have to share it. Came in to a meeting with the cities, said "We're out here, here, and here, but it's coming out due to 'regulatory issues'" Working very hard to pass Illinois 1518 to block the requirement of sharing any new builds.

2. When the tricities went to referendum to build their own FTTH plant, spent major bucks in fighting it. See »www.tricitybroadband.com. Mind you, they couldn't fight it on their own record, but instead resorted to flat out lies and scare tactics. For example, their ads said "This will be a tax increase". Absolutely false. They didn't dare run their "Tommy Lee Jones" spiel here because they couldn't.

3. Did an end run around the ICC (Illinois Commerce Commission) and instead went to the Illinois House and Senate to raise the wholesale rates to competitors. Got legislation passed and signed by our brilliant governor (SB 885). SBC: "We'll have to pull out of Illinois is we don't get this legislation." BS. They're also trying to get similar legislation in every other state they operate in.

Sorry......THESE GUYS ARE TELCO PIRATES. They will be more than happy to screw everyone.
--
»www.tricitybroadband.com

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
said by get_the_idea:
Since when did it become your phone line???
Since I paid for it. Ignoring the fact that most customer lines have been fully paid off, SBC wants to charge extra for additional stuff over the same line. I'm already paying the full cost of providing me this copper--why should I pay more?

Charging extra for letting a DSL provider "share" the line you're already paying for is like having your landlord say, "Oh, you're having sex in your apartment? Well that's extra!"

Calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

zabes63

join:2003-04-05
Batavia, IL
said by get_the_idea:
no one realizes how much this corporation has done for us.
Change that to "no one realizes what this corporation has done to us" and I'm right there with ya buddy
--
Click here to visit Tri-City Broadband
2farfromCO7

join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
Ok, maybe I was exagerrating it a little the times that I said I lived in an EXTREMELY WEALTHY SUBURB. That's probably not true

nunya
Who is John Galt?
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
The CLEC troops are at it again.
They want people to focus on how SBC isn't providing them service. Funny, I don't hear anyone pissing and moaning about the local power company not deploying service. The technology is here, yet they refuse to do it. What's wrong with those silly WISPs, and wireless providers. The nerve of them thumbing their noses at your broadband dollars.
Where do you get off assuming BB is an inalienable right? If no-one wants your business, that must tell you something. No business is going to turn it's back on good money.

You can preach on to these people who supposedly know how to run a business better than the people who are doing it. Armchair CEOs without a hint of experience or knowledge in what it takes to keep any type or size network up and running. OOOOh, I'm an MCSE, I know everything about telecommunications. They wouldn't know a repeater case if it fell on their toe. Most of them are CLEC employees anyway. I'd be worried too if I worked for a pyramid scam.

Let me tell you about rural deployment from the point of view of someone who is actually trying to deploy in rural locations. There isn't enough money in it. I'm praying for the cost of equipment to go down to make it worth while to even look at many sparse areas. Can you imagine what the big guys think? I have to hunt and search for groves of completely unserved areas in order to even begin to recover the cost of deployment. Let alone provide service to poor farmer Brown on the other side of the hill. Do you think I'm going to drop 1500$ to tie him in? Your nuts if you do. Do you think he's going to pay $1500, highly unlikely (he's nuts if he does). Then when I do come across an area, I'm lucky to get 30% even interested, and 20% to bite.
You people are not thinking realistically. Put your own money on the line and you might think a little differently. Come on give me some of your hard earned money so I can deploy faster. But I'm not going to promise anything and the technology might be obsolete next week.
--
Look Mom, I'm a Provider. "Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been." Winston Churchill

oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

I'd say take a shill-pill but it looks like you already ODed.

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

That was uncalled for boobie man.

oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

Only because you disagree with it.

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

No, it just will cause a lot of anger and flame throwing. I've learned by experience that comments like that do little good, and a whole lot of harm.

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1
If there's not enough money in it, then the government needs to form some sort of agency to get broadband into these so-called "unprofitable" areas, like the REA(Rural Electrification Administration, formed under FDR)did in the 1930's and 40's. If they had not, many areas would probably still be without power. It may cost a little more, but nothing is more draining on a government then areas that are economically disadvantaged. Perhaps it's not that they can't afford to deploy broadband into these areas, but maybe it means they can only buy one new Mercedes instead of two if they do, poor babies. However, like I said in another post, my county of Mendocino here in Nor Cal is about as rural and poor as they come, yet Adelphia has put Cable Modems in many areas in the county(Ukiah, Calpella, Redwood Valley, Willits, Fort Bragg, Albion, Little River, Mendocino) This county is about 3200 Sq.Miles in size, and only has a population of 86,000, and of those, only about half can get broadband, I think the county told Adelphia they better deploy Powerlink or lose their franchise, I'm glad they did, I'd still be without broadband if I had to depend on SBC. SBC provides DSL in Ukiah and Willits, but only right in town, and wireless is in Ukiah and Fort Bragg, though extremely expensive and limited by the mountains in this area.
--
See the thriving railroads of today, and of the future!»www.progressiverailroading.com , Check out this live rail cam of the BNSF "Chilli" Sub in Galesburg, IL! Heavy action, »64.40.92.210:1100/video/med.html

nunya
Who is John Galt?
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:5
Reviews:
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I love it!!! You may see it as flame (which technically it is), but to me it's also a sign that I am getting to him because he knows I am right, and he can no longer counter-point intelligently. I watch for it in every thread. It's like the TKO signal from ref.
--
Look Mom, I'm a Provider.
"CLECs = Government mandated corporate welfare pyramid scam." - Me.

oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

No, it's the same rehashed telco shill BS. You claim that they shouldn't have to deploy because there is no money in it, but then telcos like CenturyTel SUE when munis take matters into their own hands. SBC take price increase after price increase then cries poverty. It's laughable.

Don't want to deploy, then stop taking taxpayer money and stop suing municipalities if they choose to deploy their own infrastructure. If you don't wish to compete, get off the playing field.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-14 00:00:01]

nunya
Who is John Galt?
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
Show me any hard evidence of taxpayer money being used to deploy telco networks owned by SBC, Verizon, or BellSouth.

The illegality of the Century-Tel situation is this- The municipal govt. has the ability control many aspects of Century-Tel's day to day business, and now wants to compete against them. That would be like pitcher of the opposing team also umping home plate. Or as we say in rural America, "The fox guarding the hen-house".

Unless the municipal govt. relinquishes it's right to regulate, it has no business competing against private enterprise.
--
Look Mom, I'm a Provider.
"CLECs = Government mandated corporate welfare pyramid scam." - Me.

See 12 replies to this post

nunya
Who is John Galt?
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
I do mind subsidizing luxuries for others. BB is not a necessity. Food, shelter, and oxygen are necessities.
Many could argue electricity is a necessity. Maybe. Telephone. No. Cable T.V. No. Broadband. No.

We are quickly becoming the communist socialist that we "would never become". Some points to ponder from Pres. Reagan. They still apply today.


Are you willing to spend time studying the issues, making yourself aware, and then conveying that information to family and friends? Will you resist the temptation to get a government handout for your community? Realize that the doctor's fight against socialized medicine is your fight. We can't socialize the doctors without socializing the patients. Recognize that government invasion of public power is eventually an assault upon your own business. If some among you fear taking a stand because you are afraid of reprisals from customers, clients, or even government, recognize that you are just feeding the crocodile hoping he'll eat you last.

Public servants say, always with the best of intentions, "What greater service we could render if only we had a little more money and a little more power." But the truth is that outside of its legitimate function, government does nothing as well or as economically as the private sector. - R. Reagan

--
Look Mom, I'm a Provider.
"CLECs = Government mandated corporate welfare pyramid scam." - Me.

RR Conductor
Happy 40th Amtrak
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
kudos:1

Re: Big-city folks vs rural America

I totally disagree with that, and if the private sector is so "efficient", why do they usually have to have their tails kicked before they do what they are supposed to(clear air, water, cleaning up their messes) BB is a necessity in todays world, despite what you may think. It is usually the haves that say something is not necessary, but the minute you take it away from them, guess who comes crying to the government to rescue them? Also, you have your government and economic types mixed up. You can have a Democratic government and have a socialistic type economy(England), and on the other hand you can have a Communistic type government and a capitalistic type economy(China is becoming more and more like this). Don't mix up economic systems with governments. Oh, and I feel so sorry for doctors, gees, I mean, having to buy one BMW instead of two, ahhh, poor babies, the whole medical industry is out of control and greedy as they can get, John Q is an excellent movie on this, and things like that happen every day, the rich live, the poor die, and the rich could care less. We don't need royalty or communists here, we've created our own, those of money and means, they control the power in this nation. Reagan got this country into more debt than any other president, so he is really a bad example of how to manage a country. You also have a very skewed and bigoted view of public servants, my dad has served this nation since 1952, first in the Air Force, then as a US Postal Inspector and now in doing background investigations for the government, never has he been like what you describe these hard working people of the country as being like, he has worked harder to preserve and protect this nation then the so called "gods" of industry. How many people do you know donate most of their lives to the service of their country? Please, before you spout lies about the public sector, learn about them, you need some serious lessons. Well, I've said how I feel, and I don't care if I convince anybody or not, because nobody will change anybodies mind on here in all probability, but I feel better that I stuck up for my beliefs. Now, I want you telcos to never, ever go to the government crying foul when something doesn't go your way, after all, isn't that what you are asking of us?
--
See the thriving railroads of today, and of the future!
»www.progressiverailroading.com , Check out this live rail cam of the BNSF "Chilli" Sub in Galesburg, IL! Heavy action, »64.40.92.210:1100/video/med.html

[text was edited by author 2003-07-14 01:53:15]

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

How about serving Urban America?!?

It'd be nice to have broadband in the urban centers like Boynton Beach where we have hit-n-miss broadband. I'm right in the center of town and can only get IDSL 144kb for $110/mo.! Pathetic - I'm only 9,000 ft from the CO too.
greywolf520
That's All Folks

join:2003-06-02
New Kensington, PA

Re: How about serving Urban America?!?

I understand that. I had DSL when I was still at my parents house and that was by luck b/c I was in the test group for Verizon Online when they pushed DSL to 18,000 ft. That was 2-3 years ago. You would think in that time they would be working on extending the distance. It upsets me b/c now that I own my home and my distance is in the range of 30,000, I'm waiting on Verizon as they are supposedly testing new modems that will let them push the distance to 30,000. Being that DSL has been out for 5 to 6 years, you think that they would be out farther than that by now. CPU speeds have increases by 4x in a 2 years, why can't DSL distance and speed have improvments faster?
markopoleo

join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO
Reviews:
·Charter

What gets me is..wireless in Urban areas..

What gets me is people getting these governments loans, and turn around and offer it in urban areas, while wireless has been praised as "the last mile" broadband, its not profitable enough to bother with rural areas.

So instead of offering it in rural areas, and take years to start making a profit, they roll it out in urban areas and start making or at least breaking even within a few months.

In short its offering people with DSL and cable another company to give them internet. unreal.
--
If PLC goes mainstream, every other broadband provider will be considered what dialup is today...not broadband.
npyoung

join:2002-09-23
Jacksonville, OR

Re: What gets me is..wireless in Urban areas..

As a WISP in a very, very rural area, I have to differ. Sure, WISPs set up in the urban/ex-urban areas initially, b/c that's where the quick payback was. The other thing you should keep in mind is that my business customers pay me roughly 4X what a resi subscriber does. Do the math. That is what those urban WISPs are going for--the businesses w/o broadband. But that's a limited and doomed market IMO, in that the telco/cablecos are very aware of those dollars and are quickly getting those markets enabled.

The other problem holding back rural WISPs is the regulations and pricing that the federal govt. foists on us when we try to put a POP in on federal land, which is most of the high ground out here in the West. I pay the same amount for communities with a few thousand residents as a WISP serving 100,000. And don't even ask about what it takes in approvals and fees to put a couple of solar panels on a 20' tower on a mountain that doesn't have any equipment on it. Makes it difficult or impossible to serve those places. And yet the Dept. of Agriculture is offering loans to rural broadband providers? ( I believe that the minimum is $100k...I wouldn't know what to do with that kind of money!!! And can't qualify b/c I'm not a corporation.) The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing...must be government!

I like my market...I suspect that it's going to be a very, very loooong time before the wires get enabled here. I offer a quality service at a decent price, and I have had some OK success--and some very, very happy (and surprised)customers.

Reading these forums, you'd think anyone that offers broadband in underserved areas would be trampled by all the would-be customers getting service. But it ain't so...broadband and would be broadband users are typically upper middle class, and make a big noise all out of proportion to their numbers.

MortySnerd

join:2001-07-26
Mclean, VA

I don't get DSL's rollouts

I see a lot of posts about DSL not being available in suburban areas, even urban areas.

When the execs sit around and decide where to deploy DSL, what are they doing, throwing darts at a dart board and saying "we'll serve those guys, screw everyone else"

Can anyone explain how some areas get DSL and others don't, besides technical limitations? There seems to be plenty of areas that are technically able to get DSL, but aren't being offered it.
--
This light dinner is over.

See 9 replies to this post

oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA

Solution...it's always the same solution

Overtax the crap out of people who already pay more to live in the city and have service, distribute .15 on the dollar (by the time all the politicos get theirs) through some bloated government corporate welfare rural broadband program.

said by Article:

...To that end, the Rural Broadband Coalition was recently founded to help ISPs take advantage of the money available via the broadband program of the Rural Utility Service (RUS), a service of the US Department of Agriculture. Hidden within the Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002 is $20 million in federal funds allocated to finance broadband service in rural communities...

...$1.4 billion in loans and loan guarantees to rural telecommunications providers
BTW, the telco shills will say these grants, discounted loans and loan insurance don't exist as they claim the ILECs pay for infrastructure themselves and thus should be able to have 100% control to screw over customers with.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-10 14:32:59]

See 21 replies to this post

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Let's see what develops without subsidies....

The news on the 802.16 front sounds interesting for many of these towns--if you can buy a large pipe in, and set up a single base station, maybe you can serve the whole territory.

It would be, at its best, wildly disruptive of the current broadband economics--and that would be a good thing.

Calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

Jerm

join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
kudos:2

Wireless ISPs can be under $300 per customer

I spend a lot of my time over on the WISP forum here @ BBR.

Check out:
»www.split-wire.com/availability.html

That WISP is ran by Tegan, a teenager in the Kansas/Nebraska area. Now if he can do it, why can't you?
--
Want an OC3? Go to college! Washington State University OC3 MRTG

oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA

Re: Wireless ISPs can be under $300 per customer

Why put in the effort when you can just steal the necessary cash from Joe Taxpayer through some pork project bill and use it to fill the already fat wallets of a telco under the guise of "Rural Development"?

I don't have a drag strip near my house. Which taxpayers are gonna build me one since we're suddenly into funding unnecessary luxuries?

Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL

Re: Wireless ISPs can be under $300 per customer

Damnit man...NHRA is a necessity and John Force is God!
[text was edited by author 2003-07-10 23:46:29]

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Wireless ISPs can be under $300 per customer

ROFLMAO!

Calvoiper
andyman7

join:2002-07-14
Lorton, VA

halifax!

oooooh
the guy interviewed in the washington post article is from my county
its cool that we are getting a little spotlight
he is offering broadband to a LOT of areas that couldnt get it before
adelphia and sprint only offer cable and dsl to south boston and town of halifax
pure's wireless hits a LOT more areas but not that many people live out there :/
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

rural areas need the feds for everything it seems

took the government to give farmers electric lights and power to keep their milk fresh because private power comapanies saw them as unprofitable too. now telcos are saying the same thing with broadband maybe the TVA should roll out broadband and bypass SBC/Verizon, if they did it for electric power they can do it with data.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium
join:2002-09-06
Houston, TX
kudos:6

Re: rural areas need the feds for everything it seems

I don't see why we don't just make all business government owned. It seems like it would be far more efficient.
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: rural areas need the feds for everything it se

Replacing over grown, customer shafting bureaucracies with an pretty inefficient, but re-workable bureaucracy...

Either way, its going to suck. You are damned if you do (government usually screws up due to idiots, most on the Hill, and pretty badly) and you are damned if you don't (corporate interests that give a rats ass about customers, features, upgrading, etc. and live in the very short term).


--
root@localhost# cat /var/log/messages
fist5

join:2002-03-07
Effort, PA

Verizon is no better

I live in rural PA, Poconos, monroe county, fasted growing part of the state for the last 18 years. 6 years ago Verizon came thru and converted all the copper trunks to fiber and installed slics, cards in the slic are dsl ready. That was 6 years ago, it was spurred by the local cable company upgrading their infrastructure in preperation of cable and digital services. Then all stopped, nobody is doing anything.
Other side town, Commonwealth telephone has been providing DSL for the past several years, small phone company, forward looking.

kerriskandie

join:2001-10-09
Coram, NY

S A T E L L I T E

Do I need to spell it out for you....

If BB access is THAT important to you, out in the boonies, then pay for and use satellite.it's not THAT expensive..!!

PS In the UK, which is a bloody small island, BB access is a fraction of the amount here in the US of A............
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: S A T E L L I T E

said by kerriskandie:
PS In the UK, which is a bloody small island, BB access is a fraction of the amount here in the US of A............
When you compare how much it costs over there to what it costs here, you will quickly realize the reason why... The companies in the UK, just like in Australia shaft the customers seriously. Their costs are more for less.
--
root@localhost# cat /var/log/messages

marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1

And yet cable to rural works...

Try
»www.mchsi.com/mediacom/minnesota
or
»www.mchsi.com/mediacom/iowa
or
»www.mchsi.com/mediacom/illinois

There are a lot of small communities in those lists, many of which are rural. 97% of Mediacom's network now has high speed internet.
While the service has been questionable in the past (but improving) they have successfully done an extensive rural rollout and made a profit in the process as one of the more financially healthy cable companies.
The cable income certainly helps, but it is interesting that cable internet can pull off the move to rural communities but DSL supposedly cannot without lots of incentives and subsidies.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://whip.isca.uiowa.edu
Member: American Association of Geographers, American Geophysical Union, American Water Resources Association

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