Rural Canadian Broadband Project

I'd be a millionaire with my big fat WISP. Me and a few guys could write up a professional looking, 50 page business plan and be ready to present it to the government tomorrow. (Hey, I didn't say we would sleep).

I've lived in some of these areas.
WISP (one per community) could work, however the cost of infrastucture + government taxes would eat away at your profits real quick.

said by en102:

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I've lived in some of these areas.
WISP (one per community) could work, however the cost of infrastucture + government taxes would eat away at your profits real quick.

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I take it you aren't aware that corporate taxes in Canada are considerably lower then they are in the USA right now?

Infrastructure though, yeah, that can eat away profits quick. It'll be interesting to see if the CRTC forces the current high-speed providers to give low-cost broadband access to a POP that can then be served over wireless to a rural area. We'll have to wait and see.

Also, there is already a MASSIVE wireless broadband/regular speed network across a good deal of the Northwest Territories and Yukon. Look and Microcell were involved in it for a while, it's all based on 2.5GHz MMDS.

Sweet, it's about time they started this. I remember hearing about it 2 years ago. Doesn't really help me because I already have DSL, but it help for future speeds since they will be upgrading all the lines, etc..

Send some of that money to my house, Canada! I will spend it well! (Sees big OC48 Running thru wall)

This sounds great, so why isn't it occuring in the U.S?
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"It's time for a nationwide DSL or Cable Broadband Service, sure the price may come down, but more importantly, EVERYONE could get it!" (Looks like Canada is going to live this dream)
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I mean I have faith, i'd really like to see expanding broadband like that, but it's very unlikely that they will connect all canadian communities, or just the ones on their list-by 2005. I'm wondering why they do that? Don't they not know that they probably won't meet that goal? Or do they just like set goals that they can't reach? I mean yea, it certainly helps to get government funding by telling them your going to do this and that, but I'd rather see someone set and meet a realistic goal for once. dunno, just kinda interesting seeing yet another planned rollout with a date so soon.

said by 53059959:

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I mean I have faith, i'd really like to see expanding broadband like that, but it's very unlikely that they will connect all canadian communities, or just the ones on their list-by 2005. I'm wondering why they do that? Don't they not know that they probably won't meet that goal? Or do they just like set goals that they can't reach? I mean yea, it certainly helps to get government funding by telling them your going to do this and that, but I'd rather see someone set and meet a realistic goal for once. dunno, just kinda interesting seeing yet another planned rollout with a date so soon.

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I'm thinking that in fine print, they have a size definition of what a "community" is. Obviously, if you live out in the middle of nowhere, with like 3 neighbors, they're not gonna build a DSLAM there. But, then again, if you think about it, all you need is a small data line, a wireless transmitter, and WHAM, those three houses have access. It's not such a pipe dream after all, especially if funds are available to get that kind of thing going.

I Think they will meet or come very close to what they want by 2005. Just click »www.broadband.gc.ca/maps ··· ps_e.asp and look at Saskatchewan. It's a very big area and allot of it already has broadband access to towns the size of 500 people. Even broadband access to farmers via highspeed wireless that runs at the same speeds as DSL. Our government has always been weird spending lots of money on weird things...
(Also the map that it shows should have a lot more white dots than that as the data is 2 years old...)
[text was edited by author 2003-07-20 18:56:59]

I'll bet we could have rural broadband in the USA if we didn't have the current RBOC mess to deal with.

I wonder what type of cable they'll be running under pack ice? Ships can't even get through out there to deliver supplies after September. It'll have to be via SAT as the phone system is. In the polar regions the magnetic interference makes this dream a pie-in-the-sky idea, nevermind the frequent storms. The folks should only pay for 3 months access, as the remaining months they'd be lucky to get their email!

And I doubt no line tech would want to check that cable if it snaps or any other equipment in the middle of nowhere and it's -60 below.

I'd love it, but who'd can afford it when they smoke and it's over $90 a carton for cigs up there?

Pipe dreams.

CXP

said by ChrisXP:

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I wonder what type of cable they'll be running under pack ice? Ships can't even get through out there to deliver supplies after September. It'll have to be via SAT as the phone system is. In the polar regions the magnetic interference makes this dream a pie-in-the-sky idea, nevermind the frequent storms. The folks should only pay for 3 months access, as the remaining months they'd be lucky to get their email!

And I doubt no line tech would want to check that cable if it snaps or any other equipment in the middle of nowhere and it's -60 below.

I'd love it, but who'd can afford it when they smoke and it's over $90 a carton for cigs up there?

Pipe dreams.

CXP

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Wow. You seem to be very highly informed. Or not. Why would they need to run anything under the icepack? The permanent communites are on solid ground. Take a look at a map, You have one, correct? Anchorage and Fairbanks, part of the U.S. in case you didn't know, are both farther north than most of the Canadian communities.

Maybe you should get out of your trailer park once in a while. There is a whole different world waiting to be discovered. And I don't mean by the cable channel either.

As for smokes being expensive, who cares? Most of us up here are smarter than that.

I just would like you to answer one question. That one answer, will in fact, answer many others.
How many times have either yourself, or any immediate family members, been on the Jerry Springer show?
By "immediate", I mean the first generation of inbreds. If you need to count past 10, please do not remove your boots. I doubt the world could stand another ecological disaster the size of the Exxon Valdez magnitude.

Ehh, just a quick second question. Does your family line still have horizontally opposed thumbs? Look it up if you need to.

said by trevor_1:

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Ehh, just a quick second question. Does your family line still have horizontally opposed thumbs? Look it up if you need to.

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I thought Canadians had better manners than this.

said by trevor_1:

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Wow. You seem to be very highly informed. Or not.

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Know something about some communities above the treeline.

said by trevor_1:

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Why would they need to run anything under the icepack?

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Because water runs through the islands up there. No land bridge to run cable through, and under would be shredded to bits with pack ice.

said by trevor_1:

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The permanent communites are on solid ground. Take a look at a map, You have one, correct?

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Resolute Bay is on an island; Gjoa Haven is on a island; Spence Bay is on a penisula, etc., etc.. Tell me how does places like Alert on Ellesmere Island communicate to the rest of the world? They got a broadband cable running down Baffin Bay?

said by trevor_1:

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Anchorage and Fairbanks, part of the U.S. in case you didn't know, are both farther north than most of the Canadian communities.

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Wrong example, as it's land based. Try your 3 million square MILES of arctic terrorities that are but islands that freeze over for about 8 months a year.

said by trevor_1:

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Maybe you should get out of your trailer park once in a while. There is a whole different world waiting to be discovered. And I don't mean by the cable channel either.

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Don't forget Edmonton has trailer parks too.

I get my info directly from friends that live up there. Not folks who don't even know their own country's landscape!

said by trevor_1:

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As for smokes being expensive, who cares? Most of us up here are smarter than that.

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A habit the Inuit picked up by White men. Keeps their sanity in a land some were forced to live in. Then make them live on government assistance, in a land that has little game for them to hunt and bring food to the table.

said by trevor_1:

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I just would like you to answer one question. That one answer, will in fact, answer many others.
How many times have either yourself, or any immediate family members, been on the Jerry Springer show?

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Wow, what a question. Some Canucks are not only rude, they have no class! Not even going to bother with the answering the other trash as it has zero value even to pond scum.

CXP

I dont get it.

I thought something like 80% or 90% of the Canadien population lives within 100 miles of the U.S. border. If so, then what the hell does icepack have to do with broadband in Canada?

murdok610

said by murdok6100:

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I dont get it.

I thought something like 80% or 90% of the Canadien population lives within 100 miles of the U.S. border. If so, then what the hell does icepack have to do with broadband in Canada?

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The push is to get *all* of Canada on broadband by 2005. That's a feat that can't be done in 2 years, as there's too many environmental challenges.

It's like trying to get a space program together to get to Mars in that time (which it would resemble in money, time and effort). Resolute Bay is w-a-y up there and SAT's (or HAM radio) the only way they can even get phone access to a nearby hamlet. Unlike countries that are landlocked like Norway, Sweden and Russia, the Canadian north are a bunch of islands that are seperated by waterways that can contain floe to packice. Packice can destroy ships like toothpicks in itself. So running cable or even dishes needed for broadband isn't within Canada's budget, time effort even if they wanted too (folks wouldn't be able to afford it anyway -- they have a very expensive habit to keep up there on welfare).

Politicians have to remember there are Canadians above the treeline. Some who were forced to live in lands that even the Inuit themselves chose not to live as it's inhospitable (and not enough game to eat). The politicians moved them there, let them starve, now let them live on welfare and forgetting what they did to them.

CXP

said by ChrisXP:

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The push is to get *all* of Canada on broadband by 2005. That's a feat that can't be done in 2 years, as there's too many environmental challenges.

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I know someone in Resolute who already has satellite broadband access. There are NO wires in the north, so your comments about islands et all are void. Everything up there is done by satellite, including internet. From the mainland south you'll see wireless microwave and wireline connections. Don't expect to see anything but satellite on Baffin Island. Just the same though, that's more then most US citizens can get/afford.

said by ChrisXP:

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Unlike countries that are landlocked like Norway, Sweden and Russia,

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Uhh... yeah, shows exactly just how much you know about international geography. Do you know what 'landlocked' means, per chance?

said by Snickerdo3:

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I know someone in Resolute who already has satellite broadband access. There are NO wires in the north, so your comments about islands et all are void.

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Right, it's on SAT. Wrong about it being void.

Now ask that person how well that reception is 365 days a year. Then who can afford access to it when they're living on welfare.

I used Resolute Bay as an example because it's one of most well known high arctic communities, but it's also the hub community and scientific base that has all the data access. It's not the example for all of the communities, which doesn't relish the benefits of a government presence.

said by Snickerdo3:

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Everything up there is done by satellite, including internet. From the mainland south you'll see wireless microwave and wireline connections.

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The Great Barrens has "wireless microwave and wireline connections"? No one lives out there to even have access to it, let alone visit the area to service the equipment! It would be the landbridge for Cambridge Bay/Gjoa Haven but nothing lives out there but wildlife. There's a reason that area isn't populated and was narrowly populated before white men discovered it -- it's not called the Great Barrens for nothing.

said by Snickerdo3:

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Don't expect to see anything but satellite on Baffin Island. Just the same though, that's more then most US citizens can get/afford.

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SAT's not the answer up there due to the atmosphere interference like solar storms, which knocks out the network cold (nevermind the winter storms that destroys the SAT equipment).

»image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poet ··· rms.html
»solar.physics.montana.ed ··· idx.html
»www.psc.edu/science/Good ··· ich.html

It can only have a presence in communities that can maintain them, and northern communities are small to begin with (very expensive to maintain hamlets as food and equipment must be shipped from the south).

Example of just the headache folks get just to have phone service:

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»www.nnsl.com/yir/yir01/y ··· n01.html

Cut off in Sanikiluaq

Nunavut's southernmost community was plagued with telephone outages in late January, after an important piece of equipment conked out.

Repairs were held up by Mother Nature, which delayed a NorthwesTel charter carrying a replacement part to the hamlet.

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[You can read also about the guy who froze to death in a blizzard checking traplines. Just imagine a service crew trying to maintain a network in Timbuktu, Canada].

Broadband in the north is a pipe dream. The politicians are smoking some dope if they think they can literally dish (or wire) 3 million square miles of tundra for about 60,000 people to have access to it, let alone they can keep it up to the levels of even the worst US ISP!

[NASA image of the pack ice formation in Arctic Canada]....

»visibleearth.nasa.gov/da ··· .1km.jpg

Nevermind most won't be able to afford it in the first place (check the newsfeed article above about the problems just to maintain heat in homes up there).

When September comes shipping is closed, and air service is severely limited to emergency operations (like healthcare flights to Edmonton, weather permitting). If a major part fails, the area will be SOL to fix it.

said by Snickerdo3:

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Uhh... yeah, shows exactly just how much you know about international geography. Do you know what 'landlocked' means, per chance?

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They are not separated by waterways that crisscross through them like in the Canadian arctic. They are peninsulas and a land mass, and are literally landlocked to a mainland (or one).

You Canadians need to learn more of your northern neighbors.

Broadband for them? Computers? They'd like to be able to buy a nice 4 wheeler or Ski-Doo and have access to parts to fix them in winter. They're trying to survive up there not chat online!

CXP

Say what you want, you should check the map to see exactly what is considered a "Community" by the federal government. There's not that many up in the north. Every "Community" in the Yukon has ADSL access right now. Similar plans are underway for the NWT. Don't quite know about Nunivut though, a single strand of fiber would be enough for the entire territory but getting it down in the ocean would be tough up there.

Their telephones are all satellite-based, no reason to assume their internet wouldn't be either - as in, a DSLAM at their local telco switching office hooked up to a satellite net link to the rest of the country. How is that not considered broadband?

As for taking months to fix if something breaks, isn't that what you guys down in the USA are used to anyway? Hey, at least they're getting US quality of service at the very minimum!

said by ChrisXP:

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[You can read also about the guy who froze to death in a blizzard checking traplines. Just imagine a service crew trying to maintain a network in Timbuktu, Canada].
You Canadians need to learn more of your northern neighbors.

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Timbuktu is in Africa, not Canada. You're more then likely thinking of Tuktoyaktuk.

In the future, I suggest the American not make mistakes like this while in the same message making snide and condescending remarks about Canadians not knowing their own country. I assure you, myself and Robert know a good deal more about our own country then you do. Robert lived there, and I have family who still to this day live on Baffin Island (Arctic Bay/Nanisivik). Next time, at least get the settlements correct.

said by Snickerdo3:

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Timbuktu is in Africa, not Canada. You're more then likely thinking of Tuktoyaktuk.

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Actually Timbuktu -- which it's general meaning is a town in the middle of nowhere. And you can pick up that meaning from the term "Smalltown, USA" too.

I won't bother to comment on the rest of the trash as it has nothing to do with the thread in question.

BTW, in case you didn't know (and you don't) the Inuit aren't one people. The Inuit in the Baffin region are totally different than those further south (more so as they were the most effected by European exposure), much like Japanese and Koreans are different. So don't make the mistake of comparing them all as one -- which tends to be a common mistake even with other races, but because they look the same people automatically claim they are.

But back to broadband in all Canada: only in the south Canada. Nearly impossible to deliever it to people who have little use for it.

CXP

There really is a place in Africa called Timbuktu, so when you mentioned that about Canada I assumed you meant Tuktoyaktuk since they could be mistaken for one another. Valid explaination and I do apologise for the other comments since I took your comment out of context to begin with. No hard feelings I hope.

Needless to say, broadband WILL happen in the north, just like telephones are there right now. It's a matter of including an internet connection on that same satellite and then using point-to-moint DSL modems for anyone who wants the service. As you said, I'm sure most people in the arctic couldn't care less about broadband, but it will at least be available to them if they want it. It is already available to every 'community' in the Yukon. I use the term community, because the feds have an actual definition of what a community is. Mind you, the Yukon has a LOT of fiber running along the pipelines leading into Alaska so providing broadband there isn't as big of an issue as it is to a place that requires satellite access. As I said previously, a house (or in this case, igloo) that already doesn't have any wireline telephone service isn't going to be getting broadband internet service anytime soon. These aren't a 'community' by definition. One can say the same thing about homes in the middle of nowhere in Northern Ontario or Northern Quebec.

Okay, so they will miss the five hundred people who live in the arctic wasteland, so what?

Hell if its that much trouble for broadband/sat/microwave, Im damn suprised they have electric and or telephone. And if thats the case, who give's a sh*t? Folks in igloos are probably not that concerned about it, besides if they can get 80% or 90% of Canada wired then thats great.

What are you jealous or something?

murdok610
[text was edited by author 2003-07-22 10:31:10]

said by murdok6100:

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Okay, so they will miss the five hundred people who live in the arctic wasteland, so what?

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Those 500 people are a "major" metro city up north. It's like a Dallas/Fort Worth sized city. A hamlets that has over a thousand, can be considered a NYC.

Because they're so small those below the treeline consider them not worth the effort, but they're the largest communities in that whole Canadian north. Heck, Smalltown USA is larger than Yellowknife, and that's the largest community in the NWT and Nunavut (I still call it all NWT and still use the district naming system).

said by murdok6100:

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Hell if its that much trouble for broadband/sat/microwave, Im damn suprised they have electric and or telephone.

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It's not easy. They have some local support of engineers, but if there's a major solar storm, it can all go up in a bang. Then they're out of touch with the rest of the world. That can last for days.

It's lonely and desolute up there. Even the Inuit go mad during the winter.

said by murdok6100:

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And if thats the case, who give's a sh*t?

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They do!

said by murdok6100:

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Folks in igloos are probably not that concerned about it, besides if they can get 80% or 90% of Canada wired then thats great.

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A lot less than that, considering you guys have just over 30,000,000 on over millions of square miles. Wiring all that for someone in Fort Enterprise to Pond Inlet to come to DSLR to chat, IS a pipe dream.

Get the priorities right: food, heat, education, jobs -- broadband can wait!

said by murdok6100:

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What are you jealous or something?

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Concerned for those who are being ignored.

BTW, the map is about 20 topographical maps I own of the NWT. The book collection is much larger. Really do have a sincere interest with the landscape and people up there. Would help Canadians themselves know something about their own people, too.

CXP

said by ChrisXP:

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BTW, the map is about 20 topographical maps I own of the NWT. The book collection is much larger. Really do have a sincere interest with the landscape and people up there. Would help Canadians themselves know something about their own people, too.

CXP

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I spent 24 years in Labrador, my brother is currently on Baffin Island. He has broadband 24/7, 365 days a year. He may not get 1.5 Mbit service like the majority, but he consistently gets higher than 640, and the majority of the inuit do not want internet, because they do not care for it.

said by Robert4:

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I spent 24 years in Labrador, my brother is currently on Baffin Island. He has broadband 24/7, 365 days a year. He may not get 1.5 Mbit service like the majority, but he consistently gets higher than 640, and the majority of the inuit do not want internet, because they do not care for it.

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The Inuit that reside in Resolute came from Labrador (no native Inuit inhabited that region as it's too brutal for them to live there). They were "relocated" in the region as Canada's grand experiment to colonize the region. It was brutal, on the level of the US "Trail of Tears".

They want cheaper food, better heating and jobs -- not much of a market in carvings (even though they're beautiful pieces of art I'd love to own myself, but alas, the PETA nuts keep me from getting it -- different regions will add skins and teeth of animals that the PETA nuts had banned. So it limits their livihood as the US market is out for traditional artwork).

Broadband just isn't a priority.

CXP

said by ChrisXP:

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said by murdok6100:

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I dont get it.

I thought something like 80% or 90% of the Canadien population lives within 100 miles of the U.S. border. If so, then what the hell does icepack have to do with broadband in Canada?

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The push is to get *all* of Canada on broadband by 2005. That's a feat that can't be done in 2 years

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That's a feat that will never be done, in any country...

said by aztecnology:

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That's a feat that will never be done, in any country...

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I recommend reading the federal govenment's definition of what a 'community' is before saying it won't happen. Houses in the middle of nowhere don't count as a broadband wired community. Pretty much every 'community' in the Central and Western Provinces are broadband wired right now, the territories and Eastern Canada are being worked on right now.

LOL.....Good Point!!!!!!!

Nice to know you ignored my comment on my brother consistently using broadband on Baffin Island.

Really shows how much you even pay attention to other posts, other than finding a spelling mistake or small error for you to try and ridicule. Maybe if your 16 cats could talk back, you'd realize you are not the supreme intellect in your home, let alone BBR. This thread (and several others) are prime examples on how you go all over the map once you have been shown the error of your way, simply to point out something to make you "right".

This shall be my last remark on the topic of your oversized ego and your want for the last word on everything. Hell you brought up the fact that their are several types of Inuit for no reason other than the last word, and assumed I did not know. Jeez Chris, nice assumption, I am from Labrador!! Where I have on many occasions conversed and shared drinks with Inuit, Innu, and Metis. But what do I know? You're the Canadiana expert.

Enjoy the bitter depressing little world you live in Chris. When you are ready to drop your pride and ego, and interact with people, I'd be more than happy to converse with you.
Cheers

Don't expect any miracles from this "initiative". It has nothing to do with technological advancement, and everything to do with vote buying by providing "services" to the hot-button special interest groups. All paid for, of course, by the taxpayer. Oh and don't forget the extra revenue this deal will generate for the Canadian bubble-darlings like Nortel and JDS. And I have to wonder, has anyone actually asked the "First Nations, northern, remote and rural communities" if they really need or want broadband? Or if they can think of other more pressing ways to spend all of this money?

Paul

I am impressed. As a former Canadian (US Greencard holder), and having lived most of my life in White River (rural Canada), which is on the list, I am glad to see some progress on this. I was initially invovled when the local library was set up with a frame connection (56kbps) to have some kind of Internet period.