Do-Not-Spam ListThe road to spam hell, paved with good intentions ( old news - 06:45PM Wednesday Oct 15 2003) tags: legislation · spam Senator Chuck Schumer continues to pitch his "Do Not Spam" list idea, despite one glaring problem; it probably won't work and could make the spam problem worse. The idea was pushed by the New Democrats On-Line earlier in the year, after the "Do Not Call" database experienced its popularity surge. On the surface it seems like a logical solution; hold spammers accountable, and everyone lives happily ever after. Schumer, pushing his own legislation, this week is holding aloft a customer survey that indicates 75% of web-users think a Do-Not-Spam list is a good idea (See Washington Post report). One can only assume that supporters of this list believe that spammers are as easy to track down and fine as telemarketers, and fail to understand that spammers often operate with total disregard to any laws, often from locations that make them nearly impossible to prosecute, using technology that can make it difficult, if not impossible, to track. Without trusted parties involved in the list, you've essentially got nothing more than a petition. What's worse; if spammers somehow grab a hold of said list; they've now got a million-plus verified e-mails to spam, and you've actually wound up making the problem worse.
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|
 
Straphanger
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Audio/Video Chat
| Do not spam list? They actually want this? There's no way for this list to be enforced properly and spammers will probably find a way to get access to the list and get legit email addresses.
--
Why are we so scared death? We are sentenced to death from the minute we were born. | |
|  | 
statemachine
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Si Valley
clubs: | Re: Do not spam list? Agreed. What about off-shore spammers? At least off-shore tele-marketing companies would have to pay for the phone call. | |
| | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| said by Straphanger  :
They actually want this? There's no way for this list to be enforced properly and spammers will probably find a way to get access to the list and get legit email addresses.
Proper enforcement is not relevant. Fixing the problem isn't either.
Sen. Chuck Schumer wants very much to beat Rudy Giuliani in 2004. What's relevant then is that Senator Schumer wants an initiative that he's associated with for campaign commercials next year.
Any spam reduction would be a happy by-product.
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| | | | | | 
rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY
| New York political insight straight from Ohio. No offense but you're 100% wrong. I live here. Schumer actually legislates for his voters and not for Haliburton like our Vice President. He doesn't think about Rudy who was a terrible mayor. Did a nice job with 9/11 but that was about it. He was a bust for 7.5 years. I live in NYC. Go ahead and defend Rudy as mayor never having lived here yourself. If your white and rich than you'll will like him as a Senator. If you're like the other 98% of the population forget about any good coming to your family. Fox News and Conservative radio ranting shows like Mr. Oxycontin (who by what he personally has said on air should do jail time) are wrong again. | |
| | | | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| Re: Do not spam list? said by rit56 :
New York political insight straight from Ohio.
By that logic, being a Black New York liberal disqualifies your commentary on white conservatives or people living in the other 49 states.
Please point out where I said a single nice thing about Rudy G.
»www.maristpoll.marist.edu/nyspol···10PZ.htm
Examine what New Yorkers have to say on Schumer v Giuliani for New York Senate.
[text was edited by author 2003-10-16 10:41:24] | |
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rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY
| Re: Do not spam list? first of all I'm white and an Independent. you sir by your last statement are a racist. how dare you make such a statement against black people or any race living in this country. "Give Me Your Tired Your Poor Your Huddled Masses Yearning to Breathe Free" What does that mean to you? That is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. Where does it say the USA is for white people only? Somewhere in Dayton Ohio? Secondly your marist poll is meaningless for two reasons... 1 we'll see what happens come election day and 2 YOU DON'T LIVE HERE. you don't know what you're talking about. the nice thing about living in New York is I can walk down the street and pass blacks, hispanics, asians all people and never do I fear anything. We live together. You live in some sick racist fear. The United States is a multi cultural country. deal with it. | |
| | | | | | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| Re: Do not spam list? said by rit56 :
first of all I'm white and an Independent.
Independent voters can have liberal values.
My last statement was a suggestion to read what New Yorkers have to say about a Schumer-Giuliani Senate race. Giuliani wins. Digging deeper into the Marist University polling data shows Giuliani beating every single person in a Senate race, including Mrs. Clinton.
Perhaps you meant my first statement.
I used your logic that only a local person has insight on a local race, that only a member of the tribe can comment on the tribe.
If that's racist logic, well sir, you've labelled yourself a racist.
said by rit56 :
how dare you make such a statement against black people or any race living in this country.
Where is the statement?
said by rit56 :
"Give Me Your Tired Your Poor Your Huddled Masses Yearning to Breathe Free" What does that mean to you?
It means to me that the US is dedicated to the principle of open immigration, that any person that wishes to become an American may do so.
said by rit56 :
Where does it say the USA is for white people only? Somewhere in Dayton Ohio?
That's typical New York liberal condescension, belittling the people in flyover country as racist bigots.
said by rit56 :
Secondly your marist poll is meaningless for two reasons... 1 we'll see what happens come election day and 2 YOU DON'T LIVE HERE.
said by rit56 :
A New York poll asking New York citizens by a New York university with a long track record has established that in the state of New York people would vote for Rudy Giulinai over Charles Schumer.
said by rit56 :
you don't know what you're talking about.
I cited a New York poll done by local professionals. What about you?
said by rit56 :
the nice thing about living in New York is I can walk down the street and pass blacks, hispanics, asians all people and never do I fear anything.
You've never been to Dayton have you?
said by rit56 :
You live in some sick racist fear.
Here is my fear.
The US public school system fails Black children. American teachers fail to educate millions, which leads to high dropout rates, bad grammar and punctuation use, which contributes to high crime and incarceration rates, low wages over a lifetime, and early deaths.
How would I fix it? Fire public school teachers and break their unions. Go to a year round school year. Require hours of homework daily. Give poor Black parents thousands of dollars in vouchers to send their kids to private schools to get a successful education with the rich kids.
I cannot apologize for demanding a revolution to ensure a good education for urban black children.
said by rit56 :
The United States is a multi cultural country. deal with it.
I do quite nicely everyday. Unless living next to a black accountant doesn't count.
--
Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism. | |
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oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA
| said by rit56 :
New York political insight straight from Ohio. No offense but you're 100% wrong. I live here. Schumer actually legislates for his voters and not for Haliburton like our Vice President.
The executive branch writing and passing laws...that's a new one. If ignorance is bliss, you're on Cloud 9.
--
-- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports | |
| | | | 
bhhurd
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Korea
| I lived in Washington DC for 8 1/2 years. That was more than enough time to figure out that most politicians (both sides of the aisle) are only worried about one thing: Getting Re-Elected.
You may be fortunate enough to really have one of the handfull of elected officials in Congress who really cares about their constituents, however the odds of this being true are not in your favor.
Every member in both houses tries hard to convince those that elected them that their member of the House of Senate really has their best interest at heart. This is mostly crap, but unfortunately this the basis of politics everywhere. | |
| | 
CyberSchnook3
Kiwi's Schnook
Premium
join:2002-07-27
Blue Nowhere
| said by Straphanger :
...spammers will probably find a way to get access to the list and get legit email addresses.
Find a way?
The idea is to GIVE them the list so they know who not to spam.
Another wonder from Sen. Dummphuk.
--
Oops! Don't step in that. | |
| | photoguy83
join:2003-09-12
Austin, TX
| The real way to stop spam, or at least the growth of spam is to boycott corporations that use spam. I get spam from Target and 1-800-Flowers all the time. I sure as hell am never buying from them. There is no way to boycott E-Businesses because there are too many of them. The true reason spam keeps it's strength and intensity is because dumb people keep purchasing the products that are advertised in the spam message. If you know someone who bought the penis enlargement pills or refinanced their home, punch 'em in the face. The best way to combat spam is to get a spam filter like SpamBayes. | |
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oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA
| Ditto...this will be nothing more than a free list for rat-bastard spammers.
The only way to stop spammers is to stop those who are paying them by going after the merchants who hire them.
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-- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports | |
| vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD | Bwahaha Yeah uhhuh, whats next, do not hijack list? | |
| | 
ArchAngel21x
MacFan Pro
Premium
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Lincoln, NE
 ·Internet Nebraska
| Re: Bwahaha said by vic102482 :
Yeah uhhuh, whats next, do not hijack list?
ROFL!
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| | apollo80
join:2002-01-31
Richmond, VA
| --------------------------------------------
Yeah uhhuh, whats next, do not hijack list?
--------------------------------------------
Yeah, but after Sept. 11th, if any American is on a hijacked plane, they think they are on a flying missile, and will rush the hijackers.
Better have a "Do Not Rush the Hijackers" list, too. | |
| 
Lord Pancake
join:2003-09-30
West Milton, OH | Good Call Senator! "Senator Chuck Schumer continues to pitch his "Do Not Spam" list idea, despite one glaring problem; it probably won't work and could make the spam problem worse."
Senator Chuck Schumer is an idiot. How can Spam get any worse? | |
| JJV
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Seattle, WA
clubs: |  Spammers would love it!
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
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PC gaming Tech
| Re: GASP, a Spam list.. quote:
when the honeypot detects 3 or more of these fake emails getting spammed BAM the news it out the spammer is using the antispam list.
Then what do you do to stop it? Send them a nasty letter? We're right back where we started....looking for a technical solution..... | |
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ikarus1
Premium
join:2002-10-23
Urbanna, VA
| Re: GASP, a Spam list.. otay... here's your technical solution...
1) seed the list with false addresses.
2) set up a mail server which supports those addresses.
3) write software on it to alert the Operators that someone is hammering addresses from the list.
4) give those Operators permission to hack and rm -rf / the offending server, after they crack it.
Problem solved, repeat as necessary.
The problems with legality be damned. If spammers can hide behind international boundaries then let the folks who need to stop this crap hide behind the same boundaries...
Neither spammers, nor the enforcement community yet understand the implications of the problem. So let me enlighten everyone...
SPAM is something to anyone who wants to sell something illegal somewhere on the Internet. From offers to illicit perscriptions to drugs, to offers for local illicit sex, spam has it all. What you folks do not see, or understand is that spam is a means of illicit communication, anyone got one of those:
From: owijrnfd@swolsoinf.rlsdfi
To: sliorjwern@woeirnd.islr
Subj: ow8o0wjorhf
Text:
a;ldrei lwierneing lwirhsldifndgkleij kdir kslirndm
lwkefjhi ioeifnsl ienf
nlsdir]
messages yet? WELL WHAT THE HELL DO YOU SUPPOSE THOSE ARE??? Even spammers, viruses, worms, and idiot crackers don't send stuff like that for NO reason... You *DON'T* suppose SPAM is a means for *COMMUNICATION* for some people do you? No, you wouldn't, I guess and I can understand that but I also understand the, "bandwidth be damned, I have to communicate this message", philosophy that comes with a brain and access to the Internet. »osiris.urbanna.net but then I was trained by professionals, who may yet GET it given time... enough said, perhaps they will find this.
End result???
Well, the end result is I personally have crackers hiding behind 80% spam levels, dropping trojans on my users, because they can. God knows what else I have hiding behind 150 dial up lines, 60 or 70 broadband users, and ... aw well whatever ...
What you do to stop it is TAKE THEM DOWN. *AND* while I am on a rant anyway... We.. The "US OF A" designed this damned network and in *MY* mind, we the "US of A" can do any damned thing we want with it... SO... if one or another three letter agency decided to write, say some counter-viruses, or counter-worms, I personally would have NO problem what-so-ever with it *BECAUSE* I'm tired of seeing my country trashed by a bunch of amature crackerz, who believe themselves capable of doing anything and besting anyone. Truth be known, I expect we can take the entire thing down, anytime we feel a real requirement.
So American crackerz, want to have some FUN? Kill a spamming host today. Thankz, your country will appreciate it.
-m-
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A: »www.freeantennas.com
[text was edited by author 2003-10-15 20:18:31] | |
| | | | | iguana5
join:2003-10-15
San Jose, CA
| Re: GASP, a Spam list.. This is perhaps the silliest thing I have ever seen. Who let this 12 year-old on the Internet?
The only means to stop spam is to pressure the
enforcement of network policy across the pond, especially in the Asian countries. Certain paranoid parties (for example, OpenBSD) simply refuse to carry packets from most
Asian networks because too high a percentage of these packets are abuse-oriented. I run a web hosting service,
and am forced to block packets from what I believe are
hostile networks, and this includes anything in APNIC.
(1) 3 Letter agencies do not care about SPAM, unless
you're talking about the FTC, and their enforcement
capabilities are pathetic at best. SPAM affects tech
business an annoys people, but the "Anti-spam" market
would die if something happened to SPAM tomorrow.
(2) Spam comes mainly from rooted boxes operating for
large spam companies, some of them in the US. "Cracking" these boxes will have no effect on the amount of spam sent out -- for every box you break into, the spammers themselves break into 10.
(3) There is really no technical skill involved in making
trojans. Find the vulnerability through which it will propagate, write the payload, add a touch of personalization, and you're done.
(4) There is no such thing as a "counter worm" or "counter virus". Where do you get these silly ideas?
If you want a violent solution, I highly recommend tracking down a single spammer, going to their place of residence and taking their first born child. Then tell them you will email him instructions on how to get his child back. Then proceed to send him 100000 emails about refinancing his penis. Then videotape the torture and brutal murder of his child, and mail it to him. That'll learn 'em. | |
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ArchAngel21x
MacFan Pro
Premium
join:2001-10-28
Lincoln, NE | Re: GASP, a Spam list.. Welcome to BBR. | |
| | | | | |
ikarus1
Premium
join:2002-10-23
Urbanna, VA
| said by iguana5 :
This is perhaps the silliest thing I have ever seen. Who let this 12 year-old on the Internet?
The only means to stop spam is to pressure the
enforcement of network policy across the pond, especially in the Asian countries. Certain paranoid parties (for example, OpenBSD) simply refuse to carry packets from most
Asian networks because too high a percentage of these packets are abuse-oriented. I run a web hosting service,
and am forced to block packets from what I believe are
hostile networks, and this includes anything in APNIC.
(1) 3 Letter agencies do not care about SPAM, unless
you're talking about the FTC, and their enforcement
capabilities are pathetic at best. SPAM affects tech
business an annoys people, but the "Anti-spam" market
would die if something happened to SPAM tomorrow.
(2) Spam comes mainly from rooted boxes operating for
large spam companies, some of them in the US. "Cracking" these boxes will have no effect on the amount of spam sent out -- for every box you break into, the spammers themselves break into 10.
(3) There is really no technical skill involved in making
trojans. Find the vulnerability through which it will propagate, write the payload, add a touch of personalization, and you're done.
(4) There is no such thing as a "counter worm" or "counter virus". Where do you get these silly ideas?
If you want a violent solution, I highly recommend tracking down a single spammer, going to their place of residence and taking their first born child. Then tell them you will email him instructions on how to get his child back. Then proceed to send him 100000 emails about refinancing his penis. Then videotape the torture and brutal murder of his child, and mail it to him. That'll learn 'em.
I'd have snipped a bunch of it but... well this 12 year old figures you wrote it, you can live with it...
You really haven't gotten it yet, have you Iguana? THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT. Not here, not there not any enforcement *ANYWHERE*, or are *YOU* the enforcer? While my wording may have been a bit strong, it just expresses the extreme frustration of many years of Internet use, of watching the Internet turn from a blessing into a frustration. You probably don't have that experience, so I won't just slap you stupid and ignore your points.
You *think* but give not proof that the problem is *Asian* in origin. It isn't but, believe whatever turns you on, or start reading your mail headers, whatever I could care.
Regarding "3 Letter Agencies", after you write curriculum for one, come back and talk to me... UNTIL THAT TIME, just spend your time trying to figure out what they know... Otay?
As for for counter worm... DUH... GET AN EDUCATION... TRY TO STAY CURRENT... LEARN SOMETHING, OTAY?
As for "technical skill writing worms" Which was the last one you diasected, or wrote for that matter?
Inquiring minds would like to be enlightened... NOW GO BACK TO THE PART THAT SAID "SPAM CAN BE USED FOR COMMUNICATION" and re-read all that part ten times... MAYBE you will get it but, honestly I doubt it...
You "host a web service", yeah? Which one of your servers is hammering my network today? Let me guess, it is all microsux based, right?
Twelve year old... yeah, my rosey hinderst parts...
»www.sonic.net/jdf/archives/000395.html
--
FAVORITE ANSWERED QUESIONQ: I want to add an antenna to my wireless device, any suggestions?A: »www.freeantennas.com | |
| | | | | | | iguana5
join:2003-10-15
San Jose, CA
| Re: GASP, a Spam list.. said by ikarus1 :
said by iguana5 :
This is perhaps the silliest thing I have ever seen. Who let this 12 year-old on the Internet?
The only means to stop spam is to pressure the
enforcement of network policy across the pond, especially in the Asian countries. Certain paranoid parties (for example, OpenBSD) simply refuse to carry packets from most
Asian networks because too high a percentage of these packets are abuse-oriented. I run a web hosting service,
and am forced to block packets from what I believe are
hostile networks, and this includes anything in APNIC.
(1) 3 Letter agencies do not care about SPAM, unless
you're talking about the FTC, and their enforcement
capabilities are pathetic at best. SPAM affects tech
business an annoys people, but the "Anti-spam" market
would die if something happened to SPAM tomorrow.
(2) Spam comes mainly from rooted boxes operating for
large spam companies, some of them in the US. "Cracking" these boxes will have no effect on the amount of spam sent out -- for every box you break into, the spammers themselves break into 10.
(3) There is really no technical skill involved in making
trojans. Find the vulnerability through which it will propagate, write the payload, add a touch of personalization, and you're done.
(4) There is no such thing as a "counter worm" or "counter virus". Where do you get these silly ideas?
If you want a violent solution, I highly recommend tracking down a single spammer, going to their place of residence and taking their first born child. Then tell them you will email him instructions on how to get his child back. Then proceed to send him 100000 emails about refinancing his penis. Then videotape the torture and brutal murder of his child, and mail it to him. That'll learn 'em.
I'd have snipped a bunch of it but... well this 12 year old figures you wrote it, you can live with it...
You really haven't gotten it yet, have you Iguana? THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT. Not here, not there not any enforcement *ANYWHERE*, or are *YOU* the enforcer? While my wording may have been a bit strong, it just expresses the extreme frustration of many years of Internet use, of watching the Internet turn from a blessing into a frustration. You probably don't have that experience, so I won't just slap you stupid and ignore your points.
You *think* but give not proof that the problem is *Asian* in origin. It isn't but, believe whatever turns you on, or start reading your mail headers, whatever I could care.
Regarding "3 Letter Agencies", after you write curriculum for one, come back and talk to me... UNTIL THAT TIME, just spend your time trying to figure out what they know... Otay?
As for for counter worm... DUH... GET AN EDUCATION... TRY TO STAY CURRENT... LEARN SOMETHING, OTAY?
As for "technical skill writing worms" Which was the last one you diasected, or wrote for that matter?
Inquiring minds would like to be enlightened... NOW GO BACK TO THE PART THAT SAID "SPAM CAN BE USED FOR COMMUNICATION" and re-read all that part ten times... MAYBE you will get it but, honestly I doubt it...
You "host a web service", yeah? Which one of your servers is hammering my network today? Let me guess, it is all microsux based, right?
Twelve year old... yeah, my rosey hinderst parts...
»www.sonic.net/jdf/archives/000395.html
Since we are quoting the entire post to make this long, let's continue with that tradition.
The last several worms I have dissected were the ones I received at my email address. I do not chronicle their names. All I do is run strings on them under unix and take a look at what strings they store, which almost always tells me what they're doing. I have seen more than a handful of these worms making some contact with korean servers, ones that have been compromised. The trojan'd mIRC client was a particularly popular one, and it connected to a hacked RedHat box in Korea.
There is PLENTY of spam enforcement in the US. The spam does reach someone who reports it to the ISP, the ISP either shuts down the account or gets shut down itself. All network providers take spam VERY seriously, and if you send them the headers, they will do the rest. The problem, however, is that the majority of spam originates from compromised boxen, anything from worm infected PCs to idiots who install RedHat out of the box on an unfirewalled system lulled into a false sense of security since they aren't using a product made by Microsoft.
Can spam be used for communication? Sure. But your conspiracy theory is just wacko. Anyone with an internet connection has access to encryption that is virtually uncrackable by even the fastest supercomputers. Why would
this nefarious person send a message to lots of other people, when they can just send it to their intended target?
The strange messages you see are most likely one of two things: (a) email harvestor trying out emails to see which are valid based on bounce, using randomly generated text to avoid spam filters, (b) malfunctioning worms, (c) runaway spam script.
It appears I have aggitated you, so I apologize for my
12-year-old comment. I really despise conspiracy theorists. Please don't make me write another post arguing that the moon landing actually happened.
BTW, I happen to run my webhost on FreeBSD, but my only issue with MS is the price of the software, not any perceived lack of security.
The spam problem is not something that you can solve -- it is simply part of the general concept of the Internet, and you have to take the bad with the good. Spam has been on the internet since the first stupid person signed up, and I assure you: that was a long time ago.
Rest assured it irritates me as much as it does you, and I report EVERY spam I see to the upstream provider AND their upstream. (Well, I have a script that does it for me...)
In the mean time, there are plenty of spam prevention tools, including SpamAssassin. Even the cheapest email client (web-based and otherwise) includes the ability to filter, and having your own domain name with star aliasing allows you great control over what address you give where.
If they want a "do not email list" and will make the appropriate legislation to enforce it, more power to them. Nothing forces you to sign up.
As to that counterworm business, they do exist but are remarkably stupid in nature:
"Checks for active machines to infect by sending an ICMP echo request, or PING, which will result in increased ICMP traffic."
The problem with worms is their viral capacity and the traffic they cause. If I want to have a vulnerable MS box on the internet, that is MY business, and I sure as hell don't want some do-gooder's crazy worm rebooting my computer. IMHO, the "counter"-worm is as bad as the original.
Either way, I'm nice and current on all the tech things I care about, and really am not concerned with "3 letter agencies" and goofball conspiracy theories. You wrote curriculum for a 3 letter agency? Oh, you're probably the guy who translated the IRS tax code into Klingon. | |
| | | | | ParanoiaInc
join:2002-08-28
Tucker, GA
| It would be easier to develop a new SMTP/POP that would afford subscriber ACL's where the only mail accepted into a mailbox are from addresses defined by the owner of said mailbox.
Another tempting idea is registered mail servers. Any legitimate mail server would have a global registration that prohibits Spam activity. Any non-registered mail server traffic is automatically dropped (as opposed to filtered/denied).
Sufficient anti-spoofing, anti-amateur mail server (a la unregistered server), and end user ALC should sufficiently eliminate the bulk of the problem.
BTW, there is nothing to keep someone from developing a pseudo-SMTP/POP using a different port which operates on a more robust and stealth model than the common SMTP/POP running on registered ports.
Initiative is everything, but we are a lazy society. | |
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Sarick
It's Only Logical
Premium
join:2003-06-03
USA
·FrontierNet Intern..
| I remember reading somewhere about a server from an unregulated area doing a DOS attack. On the spammers I don't remember where but, I think it was on CNET.
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Trouble with spelling.. This browser extension changed my internet life. »www.iespell.com (it's really nice!) -Sarick | |
| | | 
linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State | Re: No Spam?????? Hotmail will cost more. I'd have to argue with this. The only spam I get at hotmail is from MSN. Anything I was forced to sign up for I quickly added to my delete list. | |
| 
maartena
Nice'n Round.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| There has to be a contact somewhere.... When you receive spam, e.g. for Viagra type pills or such, there is ALWAYS some way to contact the spammer in case you would want to buy the product. A 1-800 number, a website which is registered somewhere, etc.
Even if the actual spammer cannot be caught because they scrambled the headers, faked the IP adresses etc, there has to be some point in time where MONEY transfers from the buyer to the seller. It is at that point where companies that HIRE spammers are most vulnarable, and it is THERE that you catch them.
If you can't get the actual spammer, get the people who HIRED the spammer to spam for them! Even if a bureau has to make one transaction in buying the product, and then cancelling the transaction. Most spammers are actually U.S. businesses selling stuff to U.S. customers.
Sue them!  | |
| | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: There has to be a contact somewhere.... said by maartena :
When you receive spam, e.g. for Viagra type pills or such, there is ALWAYS some way to contact the spammer in case you would want to buy the product. A 1-800 number, a website which is registered somewhere, etc.
Even if the actual spammer cannot be caught because they scrambled the headers, faked the IP adresses etc, there has to be some point in time where MONEY transfers from the buyer to the seller. It is at that point where companies that HIRE spammers are most vulnarable, and it is THERE that you catch them.
If you can't get the actual spammer, get the people who HIRED the spammer to spam for them! Even if a bureau has to make one transaction in buying the product, and then cancelling the transaction. Most spammers are actually U.S. businesses selling stuff to U.S. customers.
Sue them!
I'll tell you what was told to me when I suggested the same thing.
"What about fake emails to screw over your competitors?"
I still think the idea is a great one. | |
| | | snkeyes3
join:2003-09-23
| Re: There has to be a contact somewhere.... You also have the problem of spammers harvesting leads for "higher-ups" but lying about how they get their contacts.
Just a hypothetical example:
"Mortgage Business" is looking for clients. They hire 4 telemarketing firms to get leads. 3 of the firms are legal (they use the DNC list, etc...) but telemarketer 4 is a front. Telemarketer 4 is a sham business set up by a spammer to look completely legitimate. "Mortgage Business" has no idea they just hired a spammer.
Point being, due diligence in hiring "lead getters" may not be enough to uncover (in this example) a "Mortgage rates have just gone down" spammer. Suing every business linked to spammers could destroy legitimate businesses.
I'm sure an example can be made for most every type of spam out there (not just mortgage spam like I've illustrated).
It comes down to this:
New antispam laws need to acknowledge that innocent parties WILL be implicated as spammers/spam profiters and the law must make significant allowances to avoid wrongful prosecution. There is just too much collateral damage that can occur if this law is shortsighted in its approach and enforcement.
[text was edited by author 2003-10-16 14:50:08] | |
| | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: There has to be a contact somewhere.... said by snkeyes3 :
Just a hypothetical example:
"Mortgage Business" is looking for clients. They hire 4 telemarketing firms to get leads. 3 of the firms are legal (they use the DNC list, etc...) but telemarketer 4 is a front. Telemarketer 4 is a sham business set up by a spammer to look completely legitimate. "Mortgage Business" has no idea they just hired a spammer.
Point being, due diligence in hiring "lead getters" may not be enough to uncover (in this example) a "Mortgage rates have just gone down" spammer. Suing every business linked to spammers could destroy legitimate businesses.
Think about it this way. If someone on the street gets caught with drugs, the police ask who the dealer was. Give up the dealer and they can walk. Don't give up the dealer and you go to jail.
Another example. I knew of a case where a company sold a certain chemical to a guy in Europe who resold it to Iraq (back in the late 80's.) The chemical (usually used to thin out inks) when mixed with hydrochloric acid became crude mustard gas. The company thought it was being sold for resale in Europe (although one person did know the procedure was illegal.) The FBI and Interpol got the shipment before it got to Iraq.
Well, the person who falsified the records did get caught and got probation. The company paid a small fine (because it went through too many levels before it was stopped.) While the big fish was the guy in Europe (who was caught) the little fish did give him up and did not suffer as bad.
Fact is, you choose your employees carefully and you choose your methods carefully. | |
| | | | | | | | | Aphrixtechno
join:2001-03-13
Saint Petersburg, FL | Re: There has to be a contact somewhere.... pretty much. lol. | |
| 
winterforge
Premium
join:2000-07-23
Roanoke, TX
clubs: | Ugh Oh my God, this would be like replying to every spammer there is to unsubscribe your e-mail. Are they stupid? LoL | |
| 
SuperJudge
Magus
Premium
join:2002-11-14
Albany, GA
clubs:
| Good idea - Bad results. 'Twould be nice, if there was a governing body for the internet. But alas! No governing body, no police for the internet. No 'do not spam' list.
Good idea, bad results.
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MediaXPeer | |
| | 
Freiheit 09
Cool Chicks Will Dig Me Soon
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Saint Louis, MO
clubs: | Re: Good idea - Bad results. How much is an e-mail adress worth? | |
| | |
SuperJudge
Magus
Premium
join:2002-11-14
Albany, GA
clubs:
| Re: Good idea - Bad results. said by Freiheit 09 :
How much is an e-mail adress worth?
I guess it depends on how much the next person would make off of it.
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MediaXPeer | |
| JPCass
join:2001-01-23
Denver, CO
|  Give it a chance?
* The spam list would have to be a "black box", where legitimate firms sent their address lists in, and got back only the addresses that were valid, with severe penalties for attempting reverse-engineering.
* It would then be illegal to send commercial e-mail that hadn't been legitimately checked against the list, creating a clear distinction between the good players and the bad. Complaints and honeypots would quickly and certainly identify illegal mailings. The company ultimately benefitting from the commerce generated by the spam would be responsible for hiring legitimate firms to do their work, and could be held responsible if they didn't.
* As an enforcement mechanism, the government could be empowered to work with the electronic payment processors to immediately suspend credit card payments and electronic transfers associated with illegitimate/illegal spam. Whether here or overseas, cut off the money and the spam withers on the vine. Plus once the hassle factor was increased for the credit card companies and electronic transfer companies like PayPal, they'd do more to weed out spammers on their own.
Obviously, solutions would have to be worked out for certain hitches, like being sure someone didn't get put out of business by a competitor spamming under their name. | |
|
linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State
·CenturyTel Inc.
| What about ICANN? We can whine about spam until the polar ice cap melts but that is not going to stop the flow of junk mail or discover a solution that works. The problem as far as I am concerned starts with ICANN.
As long as I pay Verisign or Joe Blow for a domain name this is all that is necessary. I need not have a legitimate site or register valid information. Ninety percent of the spam promotes questionable content or questionable domains. Many are hosted by ISPs that harbor spammers. Verisign knows it, the offending ISP knows it, and so does ICANN.
If all Internet registrars are required to shut down every site registered with bogus information - and they were required to share the list globally - and if ISPs were required to close open relays, spam would be reduced to a more manageable level.
If HTML, executables, and attachments larger than 25kb were disallowed (other than photo) in mail this would reduce junk and virus files.
If all email servers required users a password each time to log in to collect mail, and a password to send mail, this too would help reduce the flow of junk mail.
If ISPs were required to use anti-spam and anti-virus filters it would further reduce the incidences of both spam and the nasties.
These requirements would not be optional, subject to government interference or ignored. The policy would be universal regulations and applied equally to all.
I recall a simple joke from years past that aptly applies to the crisis we have today. A college boy needed party money.
The Western Union message to his father and the reply follows.
Dear Dad, No mon, no fun. Your Son
Dear Son, So sad, too bad. Your Dad
The quickest way to the brain of do-nothing management is through the wallet. The message is simple. Play by the rules, or you cannot play on the web.
Since everyone on the server side would have the same problem, they could easily work together to provide free or inexpensive spam and virus filters with instructions to everyone with a server.
Then spam operators would be universally required to provide valid ID, valid address, valid contact information, proof of opt-in and a valid opt-out link to a verifiable source. Harvesting names from message boards and websites would be strictly forbidden.
Then and only then will the spam problem be reduced to a manageable level. I do not advocate stopping legitimate advertising, but I do advocate seriously reducing junk mail.
The cure is not found on the bottom rung of the ladder. It must be initiated at the top with tough rules and a trump card.
As the domino falls, so will the veteran spammer.
. | |
| 
rolande
Certifiable
Premium,Mod
join:2002-05-24
Powell, OH
clubs:
Host:
Linksys
AT&T Midwest
| Problem is anonymous trust The real problem is that the majority of mailservers out there blindly trust all other mailservers and accept any emails passed through them without regard for the source or authentication. As long as all of the major providers and corporations try to solve the SPAM problem on their own, there will never be a solution within the existing framework of the SMTP protocol. If the big players and corporations worked together to create a de facto web of trust for SMTP servers on the Internet or adopt an existing one such as habeas.com and enforced mandatory registration in order to be allowed to transmit SMTP messages to any SMTP servers included in the web of trust, it would be a start. Until there is a hierarchy of trust defined for SMTP servers, it is strictly monitored and enforced by a governing body, and there is overwhelming public support and compliance, we will be subject to the scourge of SPAM.
Unfortunately, a web of trust is not foolproof and presents new problems. If a trusted SMTP server is compromised and a Spammer forwards mail through the legitimate server, does the governing body temporarily revoke the trust of that server, potentially affecting thousands of innocent end users and disrupting their email? How do you police trusted members to make sure they maintain the latest patches on their SMTP servers and properly firewall their machines to prevent other methods of subversion?
At least enforcing the registration of SMTP servers in a web of trust offers the ability to acquire some trusted information regarding the source mailserver for legal purposes. But, who decides when a registration is trusted and how that information is maintained and secured and at what point to consider a member to have breached the contract of trust and suspend/revoke trust of their registered server(s)? Also, how does the governing organization offer proof/validity that other members can be trusted?
More than likely a combination of a trust hierarchy and an enhanced version of the SMTP protocol will be needed to effectively achieve the goal of eliminating/reducing unsolicited emails. Now the problem is that all of these technical solutions break the way email works today and would require unanimous migration by legitimate mailservers. It also makes it harder to setup and maintain a mailserver. Not to mention, the more complex the technical solution is, the easier it will be for someone to find a backdoor around the process, making this whole objective an exercise in futility.
--
Remember what they say: "There are 10 types of people in the world.. those who understand binary, and those who don't." | |
| 
alien9999999
Your Head Looks Nice
Premium
join:2002-05-21
B-3000
| The solution is ... PGP! There is a solution and it's named PGP. let all people get used to it and use it, and your problem is solved... all emails that don't have PGP signatures on it are sent to the bin, giving you a way of still accepting some messages from other people, the first thing you do is to get them to use PGP and no spam would be effective anymore...
the second solution is an international legal prosecution... with a team of 'trackers' who track down illegal internet activities...
--
Alien is my name and headbiting is my game. | |
| 
User0101
Premium
join:2002-12-12
S-ZZ9-PZA
clubs:
| I agree... In it's essence it is a great idea. The actual implementation of that idea is where we all know the problem will be.
As someone has already stated, the problem will be with who we trust with a database as large as this would quickly go. It would be a beacon of info for some itchy hackers.
ItamaeChef | |
| 
garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Email filtering service »www.ipop.com
I signed up in May, went live in June. They provide reports that show you total amounts of email, spam, virus attacks, etc. Cost is so low it's not even a no brainer, $350 / year to filter 25 addys. Spam to the desktop has gone to nearly zero overnight on my LAN of 30 workstations.
If you are looking for a corporate solution to spam, this is the answer. | |
| |
Sarick
It's Only Logical
Premium
join:2003-06-03
USA | Re: Email filtering service to expensive. My ISP doesn't this for basic subscription price using spamassassion. | |
| snkeyes3
join:2003-09-23
| You wanna play, you gotta pay. I think its come down to this, we have to pay per e-mail. I'm sorry. I'm ready to strangle myself for saying it. I loathed the idea 2 years ago, but I think we're left with no other choice. We have to hit the spammers in their wallets. Not just when they get caught, but we have to hit them EVERY TIME THEY SEND E-MAIL!!!
As I'm sure has been suggested:
Make every e-mail out cost 5¢ each. Charge an additional 2¢ for each bounced e-mail.
Here's the good part. Every time you receive (not read, only receive) an e-mail, you receive 4¢. Yep, PAY US TO RECEIVE YOUR SPAM EVEN IF WE HAVE SOFTWARE AUTOMATICALLY DELETE IT!!!!! I personally get 50 spams per day, so in a month (30 days) I'd make $60. Y'know what...I kinda like spam now.
Of course, our ISPs are not philanthropists. Each ISP keeps 1¢ per email and all 7¢ for bouncing e-mail for administering this system.
1 million e-mails would cost $50,000 assuming every spam hit a legitimate e-mail account, $70,000 to a spammer assuming every one bounced. You don't get paid for receiving your bounces.
Non-spammers: Sending a joke to 100 friends? That's $5.00. Sent a virus to 1000 people? That's gonna be $50.00 (you coulda bought antivirus software for that.) Hijacked PC? Prove it and settle in arbitration.
Of course, this is VERY simplistic, but I think the concept is a step in the right direction. | |
| PersonelDaze
join:2003-03-04
Sharon, MA
| Do-Not Spam lists, E-Mail Filtering... Both ideas of a do not spam list (for those who do not want to receive spam) and charging for e-mail (to financially limit e-mails & provide accountability through the billing process) are well meaning ideas, but unfortunately have one serious limitation in common. How does this stop spam coming from off-shore accounts? At least you can trace phone calls, which provides a fair degree of accountability. Charging for e-mail might slow down some spammers who are working on a margin & easily traced, but given the patchwork of computers that make up the internet there is no easy or practical way to track and charge/tax all e-mail traffic, even in this country... | |
| 
alanhdsl
Premium
join:1999-10-09
Phoenix, AZ
·Qwest.net
| Offshore? Not manyAlthough much of my spam does get bounced through offshore services, most of the actually operators are here in the good ol' USA. For example, I got a weight loss spam. The link goes to a server in China. Out of luck, right? Nope. Digging down to the actual order page reveals orders go to anwcream.com.code:
Administrative Contact:
light 13, gas info@eliptika.com
20533 Biscayne Blvd
Suite 564
Miami, Florida 33180
United States
7864888499 Fax -- 7864888499
Technical Contact:
light 13, gas info@eliptika.com
20533 Biscayne Blvd
Suite 564
Miami, Florida 33180
United States
7864888499 Fax -- 7864888499
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.SUSPENDED-FOR.SPAM-AND-ABUSE.COM
NS2.SUSPENDED-FOR.SPAM-AND-ABUSE.COM
Looks like their registrar has already had some complaints. But in this case, the perp is in Florida, fully within US law enforcement's reach. | |
| |
ikarus1
Premium
join:2002-10-23
Urbanna, VA
| Re: Offshore? Not many THANK YOU SIR!
Well searched out. Spam originates predominantly in the US. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TRACK THE MONEY.
Nice work.
-m-
--
FAVORITE ANSWERED QUESIONQ: I want to add an antenna to my wireless device, any suggestions?A: »www.freeantennas.com | |
| Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Are the Spammers or Companies at fault? Now I didnt read every post so this may be covered but......
A majority of the 150+ spam messages I get a day are for a product or service of some sort. Generally they provide me with a way of purchasing their "CRAP" or finding out more information.
Since the spammers themselves are generally hard to track down and because of international boundaries difficult to pursue, we should be going after the companies that use them. Spammers generally do not spam just to spam. They are generally being paid by someone at these companies to do so as a means of cheap advertising.
Since the companies are easier to trace and are generally the true cause of spam we should be making laws making it illegal to hire such services. It would be easier to enforce and then the companies can be forced to reveal to the courts who they are hiring and they can be sought after. Something along these lines would probably be much easier to get other countries to sign up on and enforce.
Obviously other countries would have to support such things to make this useful since many of the offenders come from them. However, with enough pressure from their homeland users and other governments many would come around. If not, routers can be blocked from accepting traffic from any network so the internet backbone providers should put it to good use. If the pressure from the world isn't enough, maybe their lack of a global internet connection will be. | |
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Re: GASP, a Spam list..