 
NeO_JAW
Arsenal Are No1
Premium
join:2002-01-24
Surrey, UK
clubs: | About time too At last some good news about BPL..
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Time for a LiQuId LuNcH | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC | Re: About time too Forgot to mention on BPL in Iraq that Saddam's son was also quite impressed by the demo where he could do with this kind of bandwidth 4D porn and fully rot what was left of his mind. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
 ·Qwest.net
| Re: About time too Funny you should mention it but here is a photo I recently obtained of Uday just after he finished watching 100 straight hours of 4D porno without any sleep. Baghdad bagels with goat cheese and German beer do wonders for a man.
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I love Irish Terriers, Low Brass, and the electric blue glow of an 866 mercury vapor rectifier tube at night.
[text was edited by author 2003-10-18 01:31:17] | |
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| Nighttime
join:2001-11-30
| Other users I though I saw a while back here or another teck site that the military was angry about the curent WiFi could cause problems on their use of that frequence spectrium. If so add BPL to this and it will will be crushed quickly.
The whole problem is the same as a sparkgap transmitter. It just two wide in spectrium it takes up. There are no hugh unused gaps in the spectrium that is wide enough or would help in the leakage problem. That is why SG were band earler last century. The UHF and higher frequence are in heavy uses. The only real spectrium is in the spectrium just below and through light.
If the power compant would run fiber on their rightaway they would be much better off. Both cable and even phone use the same poles in areas.
If the people wanting BPL think the power companies will, as a kind jesture, run this out to the boonies for next to nothing better take that breath right now. | |
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N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN
| Yes! Finally, a BPL company that appears to actually have real engineers, not just marketing spin doctors! Corridor was obviously working on it before I posted a similar idea in August (»home.comcast.net/~gbox/), so I wish them good luck and may the best system win.
(Yeah, I know, fiber is best) | |
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth | Any speed difference on 5ghz? Is there any speed differences operating on these frequencies? | |
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KF6HCD
Kindly Shut Your Noise Hole.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
Yucaipa, CA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| 802.11a Looks like 802.11a will be taken out by this technology. As a ham, I was vocal in my criticism of *old* BPL. I would not be surprised if people who spent so much on (a) equipment are now pissed off and the manufacturers of (a) equipment are messing their collective drawers about the (maybe) future obsolescence of (a). I could also understand their apprehension and disappointment. If I had to give up a band that I love operating, I would my self be kinda mad.
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The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. »www.prepaidlegal.com/info/kfolsom
[text was edited by author 2003-10-17 10:26:02] | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | Re: 802.11a Given the range of 11a, it's possible interference issues will be minor. | |
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CanOpener4
join:2003-06-23
Brooklyn, NY
| And 802.11a's spectrum is dumped on... said by [TelecomWeb :
The thornier problem is that there isn't a lot of junk spectrum out there just waiting to absorb BPL emissions. While Corridor's solution would spare the hams, there are also technologies using or planning to use those 5 GHz bands -- 802.11a for example. While Corridor's technology shows that we at least have some degree of control over where we dump BPL's RF trash, it has to go somewhere. And pretty much anywhere you look, you'll find existing users demanding that it not be dumped in their back yard.
This part was interesting... Hopefully, there won't be court battles between BPL and 802.11a claiming to have the right to use these freqs. After being against the BPL of previous versions, I am looking favorably on the current system being tested. I hope this works! But, I am wondering what the end user's throughput will end up being?
[text was edited by author 2003-10-17 10:16:15] | |
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Automate
join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA
| Big typo "A blistering 216 Mbps, with latency of less than 500 milliseconds"
500 milliseconds is .5 seconds, about the same as a satellite link, very bad.
According to Corridor Systems it should be 500 microseconds, very good latency. 
»www.corridor.biz/0309-corridor-pr.pdf | |
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UnKown
The Underground Network
join:2002-09-08
Orlando, FL | Re: Big typo very true, but to Large businesses that dont play games the extra latencity is no problem compared to the speed. | |
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| | Automate
join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA | Re: Big typo I don't think so. Try VOIP or Video conferencing over a high latency link. Not fun. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Bigger typo Aw, 'cmon. What's the difference if you're off by a factor of 1,000?
(Best recent gaffe: the FCC, in its recent screed on telephone unbundling, mis-defined "DS-1" as a 1.544 MegaBYTE signal instead of 1.544 MegaBIT signal--and repeated the error for DS-3. When they issued a controversial "Errata" changing several other things in the Order, they missed these two....)
Calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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| Nighttime
join:2001-11-30 | Sheech! 500 milliseconds? Thats as bad as CDPD modem! Pritty bad! | |
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oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA
| Yep, and California sure knows power Of all the problems California power has, how about PG&E, SDG&E, SCE start repairing and expanding their infrastructure before wasting more money (and crying the the CPUC for rate increases) on questionable technology with no standards and that offers nothing that cable, WISP and xDSL don't already offer. There are easier, cheaper ways to deploy WISP than involving California power distributors, especially since more and more of California residences use underground utilities services that stretch FAR outside the servicable area of Wi-Fi (esp in SoCal where UG utilities have been installed in tract developments nearly exclusively since the late 60's).
If these distributors have the money to waste on this (all while crying poverty to the CPUC), then they have too much and the PUC should order some returned to their customers.
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-- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports
[text was edited by author 2003-10-17 10:39:51] | |
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| WangFubar
join:2003-10-02
Paradise, CA
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Yep, and California sure knows power I eagerly welcome any broadband here, but I agree that PG&E claimed that they were bankrupt and strong armed the rate payers into enormous rate increases. If they have capital to startup a new division and deploy broadband, I think its time for CPUC to re evaluate the rates we are paying. | |
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| moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| This is the same thing the phone companies are doing now.
While the dial tone is regulated, other services are not. They charge as much as they can for Caller ID, Call Waiting, etc. This is how they make money over and above the tint profit margins allowed by the PUC's.
Now, with the situation in California, this is just another money making scheme that can't be controled by the government. | |
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oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA | Re: Yep, and California sure knows power Hopefully the CPUC will take this into consideration before they take another increase. | |
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DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX
| Solve one problem to introduce another quote:
The service does use Wi-Fi to get the bandwidth from medium voltage power grids to the end user's computer, so real-world speeds may be potentially less.
And as a result there will be much higher interference and less usable band in the 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz bands. Solve one problem only to introduce another one. As more households get Wi-Fi APs the problem will get more severe. They should get their own dedicated service frequency and not use Wi-Fi bands.
[text was edited by author 2003-10-17 11:56:09] | |
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statecop
Premium
join:2002-09-16
Beverly Hills, CA | Who is next???????????? Somebody will start screaming it causing problems with something and start another campaign against it.
I hope they can get this rolled out though for the good of everyone! | |
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apsinkus
join:2002-06-25
Chicago, IL
| If it has "wirless" in it's name HAMs will kill it After dealing with HAMs on this forum and other places I came to one conclusion:
You guys feel like you own the universe. The moment any signal leaves four walls, you will cry foul. I think that HAMs are the reason wireless product development is restricted and you are the reason why small towns and other rural areas (plus underdeveloped parts of huge cities) have no broadband. You just want everything for your !hobby!. If I was like that with my hobbies, none of you would be driving your old beat up cars, since you would be interfering with my hobby on any roadway. Now get the hell out of my lane damn it! | |
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| N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: If it has "wirless" in it's name HAMs will kill it Hams are upset with the original BPL concept because it is bad engineering and irresponsible public policy. There are RF bands set aside for just these purposes, which do not infringe on other services like shortwave broadcasting, amateur radio or public service. That is where they belong. The 5GHZ band that Corridor is using is allocated to the National Information Infrastructure for just this purpose. Amateur radio has coexisted with everything from AM broadcasters to television to WISP's by cooperating and coordination. BPL on HF frequencies flies in the face of almost 90 years of cooperation. There is no argument if it behaves like a good neighbor and uses the spectrum allocated to it. | |
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| moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by apsinkus  :
After dealing with HAMs on this forum and other places I came to one conclusion:
You guys feel like you own the universe. The moment any signal leaves four walls, you will cry foul.
Gee, you think we own the universe? Listen to yourself? You want your high speed internet no matter who you step over to get it.
There are already established rules reguarding interference used by the FCC. Just because some company wants to violate those rules for profit doesn't make it right.
said by apsinkus :
I think that HAMs are the reason wireless product development is restricted and you are the reason why small towns and other rural areas (plus underdeveloped parts of huge cities) have no broadband. You just want everything for your !hobby!.
Oh, this shows your complete and utter ignorance. Some HAM's are responsible for the very computers you use, the internet you surf and the wireless products you have. HAM's were using packet radio long before the internet was open to the public. Most of the HF frequencies used by HAM's (under 30MHz) were declared useless by the government decades ago. We made them work and then everyone wanted to use them.
Fact is, we HAM's pioneered many of the technologies we use today. It may be a hobby, but it's a productive hobby.
Also, do you know why you don't get broadband in small towns? Because there is no money in small towns. Any provider is going to look where the biggest subscriber base is going to be. That means the cities come first and small towns go last (if at all.) Do you think the phone company is going to install DSL equipment for a couple of users? Think cable will put in a node for just a few people? If you think BPL is the answer to your prayers, you better look for a different god cause your prayers are going to go unanswered.
said by apsinkus :
If I was like that with my hobbies, none of you would be driving your old beat up cars, since you would be interfering with my hobby on any roadway. Now get the hell out of my lane damn it!
There is something called a speed limit in this country. You go over it, you might get a ticket. And what happens when your favorite car becomes old? Are you going to give way to something newer? | |
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snorpus
join:2000-10-02
Export, PA
| said by apsinkus :
After dealing with HAMs on this forum and other places I came to one conclusion:
You guys feel like you own the universe. The moment any signal leaves four walls, you will cry foul.
Maybe in other places you found that, but I thought that in this forum, amateur radio operators (and other critics of HF BPL) were quite reasonable in their criticisms.
Of the 27MHz of bandwidth between 3Mhz and 30Mhz (the "shortwave frequencies"), amateurs are allocated about 3.5Mhz, about 13%. Half of that allocation is between 28.0 and 29.7MHz; amateurs are allocated about 7% of the spectrum between 3 and 28Mhz.
Every hertz not allocated to the amateur radio service is allocated to some other service: government, military, aeronautical, broadcasting, etc. Given the long distance propogation characteristics of the HF bands (anywhere from hundreds of miles to literally worldwide), the interference created by BPL V1 would have serious impact around the world.
And I think it's fair to say the jury is still out on 5GHz BPL. (1) Given the condition of the power company infrastructure, can out-of-band spurs be reduced to acceptable levels? (2) There are already other users of the 5GHz spectrum, including 801.11a WLANs. (3) Will using 5GHz BPL do anything to solve the fundamental problem with rural broadband, which is economic, not technical?
73
KQ3T
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KF6HCD
Kindly Shut Your Noise Hole.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
Yucaipa, CA
·Verizon FIOS
| said by apsinkus :
After dealing with HAMs on this forum and other places I came to one conclusion:
You guys feel like you own the universe. The moment any signal leaves four walls, you will cry foul. I think that HAMs are the reason wireless product development is restricted and you are the reason why small towns and other rural areas (plus underdeveloped parts of huge cities) have no broadband. You just want everything for your !hobby!. If I was like that with my hobbies, none of you would be driving your old beat up cars, since you would be interfering with my hobby on any roadway. Now get the hell out of my lane damn it!
Think all you want about hams restricting wireless development. If that gets you through the night then God bless. But the truth is that hams are the most vocal about this issue. The fact that BPL is bad is being validated more and more and that is not because hams have the power to do this. Hams actually strive for spectrum sharing, and any technology that will dominate a portion of spectrum that hams share with countless other users the world over has got to be shot down. I am not referring to *New* Bpl, which will do nothing to the worldwide HF; I am reffering to *old* BPL, and if you think that is the only BPL, then you need to pull your cranium out of your anal orifice and look around.
Find me a ham that feels he owns the universe and I will show you a ham who is selfish because of who he is; hams are hobbyists who actually give something to the community: the same thing selfish pigs like you want to take away. Hams are not selfish and we do not feel we own the universe. We are willing to stand up and be heard, and we want to maintain a spectrum that benefits more than just a group of money makers and bandwidth hogs.
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The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. »www.prepaidlegal.com/info/kfolsom | |
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| theeinstein
Premium
join:2003-07-31
Fernandina Beach, FL | Like everything else that is old this to will pass away!!!
=)
Dude HAM is like OLDDDDD.....HIGH SPEED INTERNET!!!
------All that matter's-------
Cya | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: If it has "wirless" in it's name HAMs will kill it said by theeinstein :
Like everything else that is old this to will pass away!!!
=)
Dude HAM is like OLDDDDD.....HIGH SPEED INTERNET!!!
------All that matter's-------
Cya
I wish ignorance would pass away, but it's as old as mankind and continues to thrive today. If you did some research you'd know that hams don't have a problem with this form of BPL. The other low speed BPL is a mess and is actually Dark Ages technology, regardless if it's carrying Internet traffic.
Please, get a clue before spewing flamebait and learn what "matter's" as you put it...
»www.qsl.net/k3ng/bpl.html | |
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KF6HCD
Kindly Shut Your Noise Hole.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
Yucaipa, CA |  Re: If it has "wirless" in it's name HAMs will kill it
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| | | theeinstein
Premium
join:2003-07-31
Fernandina Beach, FL
| Re: If it has "wirless" in it's name HAMs will kil Dude if you read my original post it said nothing to the topic.. I can't see where I was saying if the person was wrong or right... truthfully I don't even care... and if you wish ignorance would pass away maybe you shouldn't read into my post what isn't there in the first place!! | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: If it has "wirless" in it's name HAMs will kil said by theeinstein :
and if you wish ignorance would pass away maybe you shouldn't read into my post what isn't there in the first place!!
Perhaps you should more clearly state whatever you're trying to communicate. You appeared to be saying Amateur Radio is old and it will pass away to high speed BPL Internet. Is this not the case ?
If you don't really care, why are you posting ? | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| Dead horse 2 (case #22) The good news is that there is finally recognition from the BPL community that this technology is leaking in-band (and perhaps even out of band on most powerlines!). Perhaps there is a solution in the co-licensing space that can recover the ailing stocks out of this latest "BPL demo". The bad news is that some people may think that the horse is not really dead yet. According to rf_engineer earlier posting on various pro-BPL logic, this would be a case #22 (rigormortis) or #23 (Treckie technology). I am not trolling and please bare with me for a moment before firing back.
Let's each take out our favorite Xcel spreadsheet and create a worksheet called "rural deployment ROI analysis" and enter three columns:
- one for dropping new DSL repeater commodity gear at each 15000 feet of line
- one for dropping a cell site/antenna commodity gear (while powering off the powerline) at every say 30000 feet.
- one for dropping BPL line repeaters (ensure to include CAPEX and OPEX) at every TBD feet (how many feet were the repeaters dropped at in latest BPL demo?)
Add it all up, also put a column in on when will the stuff be available at a commodity price (&risk associated), and send it over to the FCC commissioner; make sure it is the one on the torture stretcher that saw the first BPL demo.
And then you can beat me on my posting and tell me that the horse is not really dead but perhaps can kick again if we are all kind enough to give it a chance. When a horse suffers, everyone one is better off if the horse is put down. Deploying broadband to rural is ***not*** a technology problem (even if they ever got BPL to work!), it is simply a spreadsheet problem. It is that simple. This forum is far too technical to solve it. | |
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| oconnd
join:2003-10-18
australia
|  Re: Dead horse - I hope it isnt dead!
After reading most of the posts here, I tend to agree that the dream of 'broadband for all' is not limited by intellect, or physical strength, or environment - it is purely economics, or more simply - money.
Its great that there are people out there prepared to sink time and funds into BPL tech, and I understand both views of the hammies and broadband-needy (well, lots of people judge their quality of life by the speed and quality of their internet experience!)
Here in AU, we have hugely remote towns, that would benefit in so many ways from reliable, fast broadband. At the moment, we rely on Telstra, and Optus (two main phone companies here) with Telstra providing the physical telecomms infrastructure - Optus 'leases' it.
Consider this - why would Telstra (partially privatised company) want to fork out millions to install a full duplex satellite base in one town, and then run a bunch of fibre between two towns that might be... say - 80km away (Kalgoorlie and Boulder, in WA) to provide better phone quality and facilities, and broadband to maybe 300 people of a population of 2000? They already have 'adequate' phone availability (radio exchanges that have minimal load capacity and no upgradeability) according to Telstra.
Although they make in excess of $AU 30M a year profit, with over 10% of unknown profit origins, its still too expensive to install the infrastructure.
So. It all comes down to money. Return of Investment. Overall profit. Which is why the rural areas still rely on bad, disgustingly expensive satellite for education/phone services for the larger towns, and the smaller groups do without. Or use a CDMA mobile phone.
The one relatively common thing to all outback areas, is power lines, be they underground or overhead.
If the BPL technology was proven, and developed as being more cost effective, it would be a sure bet that Telstra (or maybe Optus, if they were convinced to start a new stream of business) would be much quicker to implement and price BPL broadband within rural consumer reach.
However, I agree a designated frequency range should be assigned for BPL use.
So in describing in simplistic designs the plight of the australian rural areas and the 'broadband for all' dream, I hope this horse isnt dead, we could really do with this kind of solution.
Cheerio
Dea | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| Re: Dead horse - I hope it isnt dead! (case #21) You cannot need this that badly (case #21). Read on.
Even if techically they could:
- fix the problem of transit delays (for broadband needs)
- contain the out of band leakage
- get their own band (for inband leakage)
- minimize safety issues (radiation&high power electricity) to installers of repeaters or people living nearby
- contain cost of installing these repeaters
- forget about RF environmental impact (the higher up you go in the spectrum the worst it gets)
you still have the fundamental economics of what is the cost of DSL repeater gear -vs- this new BPL gear (and when would it be ready for prime time). This is the real horse killer. I sincerely hope the forum consensus is emerging on this. The rest is a fictitious technology fix and we have gone there too many times recently and always eventually wake up with a worse aftermath.
You are welcome to join in the wake on the posted topic and plan getting a shovel for the burial on Monday afternoon. Transmaster has promised to not post further shocking graphics. I have also committed to better moderate my furror over this. I have also asked to abstain from any further dark humour. I am sure some creative minds can keep this going. I think everyone needs some healing at this point. That is what a wake is for. | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| Rumors of my death have been exaggerated The wake went uneventfully apart a few IM exchanges until the horse came back alive at hour 23 and said: "Rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated". Can you believe what came out of that horse mouth? I was shocked and then he added: "Did you not think that somebody else would like to ride me and perhaps stay away from fine China stores. Aside a few technical issues, maybe someone will figure out the economics of dropping these new BPL repeaters".
I then took a strong shot of scotch and figured I had to cancel the Monday afternoon burial. Don't you love this cando attitude? Have a good week and remember, as my compat Red Green would say, that we are all in this together.
[text was edited by author 2003-10-20 03:10:40]
[text was edited by author 2003-10-20 03:12:02] | |
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bigdaddy17
join:2003-05-08
Miami, FL | sweet The only thing about BPL is that it could fry your computer up in a zap or if something goes wrong they're getting there though. | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| BPL in Iraq (case #19) Rumour has it that Saddam did early trial on some BPL technology acquired from either the Frenchs or the Americans. It is unclear what the intent was: protecting against the US military high tech communications equipment or perhaps an early WMD trial. Spectrum used ranged from 4 MHz to 5000 MHz and was massive. Few repeaters were needed due to power levels used. It may in fact be a reason why a good portion of their electrical infrastructure had to be taken down and this particular WMD could not be uncovered.
Rumour also has it that Michael Moore is working on this story and will have some clips of this now very tormented FCC commissionner wining and dining with some powerful people earlier on. Michael was the waiter at the table and took off his baseball cap in order to look more inconspicuous. He may make a case in the movie for using guns when horses are badly ailing. Kucinich may contribute his power utility watchdog credentials.
Last rumour is that the ARRL BPLmobile may not be available for the burial of the dead horse as it looks for out of band leakage. Any other volunteers for throwing in some shovelful?
TGIF | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| The main problem with BPL Forget for a moment whether the problem is either technical or economic, the much bigger problem is that it creates the illusion that there is a new wizbang tech solution in the pipeline for deploying broadband to rurals, and that the technical guys (or the finance guys or the market analysts) will eventually fix this. Meanwhile you ain't gonna see any progress in deploying broadband into rurals, the DSL folks or the wISP people (in cases where service coverage is better done wireless) are not getting the proper signals to get moving any faster. The FCC guys are saying somebody will take care of this while still wining and dining at the taxpayer or lobby expenses and not doing the job they are supposed to do, namely public service and effective governance; why are we not seeing the NOI FCC ruling yet? I must gather that sound technical or even financial judgement is not a performance criteria anymore to perform these functions. Throwing technical or financial resources at BPL take these resources away from elsewhere in the economy where they could be much better used. This really bad farce has to come to an end. I myself got caught earlier on in the neat technical aspects of BPL as an engineer but eventually woke up to some basic realities, thanks to rf_engineer (&the hams) public service work.
I am doing a wake this week-end over BPL going EOL and hope that next week it will just be like a bad dream that finally came to an end. | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| The wake of the BPL dead horse is now on I will appoint myself as the event coordinator and will do it over the net. I could not book the BPL mobile. The wake will be over on this coming Monday morning. The burial of the dead horse will be held Monday afternoon. Please show good manners and abstain from further questionable bad humour. Say good things for the poor horse under this thread. | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC | Re: The wake of the BPL dead horse is now on I will start with the first wake entry then.
It was a good kicking horse but they should never have taken it to the fine china store. | |
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fgoldstein
join:2003-01-21
Newton Highlands, MA
 ·RCN CABLE
| Not much detail, but looks more wireless than BPL Corridor's web site (»www.corridor.biz) doesn't have much info, but it does not sound like "traditional" BPL at all. BPL uses the wire as a transmission line, which of course is why it leaks -- it's not built for that. Corridor seems like they're using the poles as little antenna towers, or the like, relaying the signal using 802.11x-series radios. Maybe the wire does have some useful transmission properties at those frequencies, but the repeaters have to be pretty close together. Since they're using the same chipsets as other Part 15 radios, they should be within emission limits. That also keeps the price down, so they can put repeaters close together. And they can do the house drop with radio too.
I suppose it sounds more like Ricochet than like BPL! Which actually is a natural model for a power company. At least in areas where the wire isn't all underground.
BTW, somebody quoted 500 "milliseconds" in this thread when the real latency is 500 microseconds. Big difference. | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| Re: New way to ride the BPL horse Allright I will be positive finally and this is quite clever. I really do not think this should be called "BPL" certainly in light of the NOI issued back in April. I would suggest to the Corridor PR department to get more creative in the writing department.
Definitely a much different way to ride the horse. The RF environmental impact looks reasonable and this will not break the fine China -vs- the old BPL. It killed more than 2 birds.
The cost of dropping these new "BPL" repeaters still looks high -vs- DSL gear. But I definitely put an A+ on record for the cando attitude!
See »www.thehumorarchives.com/humor/0000713.html for my delay dose of humour. | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| Re: Another way to ride BPL If this Corridor directional wireless solution can be called "BPL", what about stringing fiber on top of these powerlines (as discussed several times on BBR)? Might actually be cheaper, and use off the self repeaters further spread apart. That would be an FTTH "BPL" solution killing many birds at once with no guns and yet environmentally clean RFwise. Anyone can guestimate linear feet cost to roll? Food for thoughts.
[text was edited by author 2003-10-21 12:30:15] | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Technical Details I'm a ham and I support this form of BPL. This BPL is an application of a phenomenon called G-line discovered by Georg Goubau in the early 1950's or so. A page describing G-line is here : »www.amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html (scroll down about 1/3 of the way down the page).
There's one big problem with G-line, it requires a dielectric (i.e. plastic, rubber, etc.) on the line the microwaves are propagating on. Most power lines are not insulated and changing out the lines would be a pain and costly. G-line also requires that the power cables be fairly straight or at least have gentle bends, otherwise the radio frequency energy floats off into space. The coupling "funnels" (for lack of a better term) that are required may be a bit difficult to install on a live line as well. If they get this to work, though, they stand to make a pile of money with a non-interfering technology.
This technology is much different than the lower frequency BPL that threatens HF bands (1-30Mhz) and lower VHF (30-80Mhz).
Goody
K3NG | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Technical Details There's two other items I'd like to add. This could have the potential to interfere with existing UNII band operations such as wireless ISPs (WISPs) and 802.11a wireless LANs. However, all of these devices are on equal regulatory footing as they operate under Part 15 rules. Something to consider, though, is the nature of 5 Ghz signals. They do not propagate like HF signals that the low speed BPL uses. This is microwave frequencies, so it propagates much more like light - in straight waves, or line-of-sight. So any radiated emissions could be expected to be stopped or severely attenuated by vegetation and buildings in short order. I'd suspect that indoor wireless LANs could easily overcome any emissions from such a system, and wireless ISPs using directional antennas would not have problems.
The other item is more a thought or question. As I mentioned, I'm uncertain they can get this to work due to the nature of G-line. I'm curious if they are perhaps using this as a lossy radiating type system with the "drops" to the houses actually being wireless an not conducted via the power line into the house. I haven't seen any details on this or how they're dealing with the limitations of G-line, but this may be a workable solution.
This, folks, is innovation. Someone at Corridor did their homework and found a nearly forgotten phenomenon with no applications and developed a much better mousetrap. I wish them luck. If they get a working trial system, the investors will be lining up... | |
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N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN
| Corridor is onto something! I agree with RF engineer. The Corridor pictures look exactly like a G-line. The QST article you may been thinking of is "Putting the G-line to work" by George Hatherell K6LK in the June 1974 edition. There is another reference at the article »www.rubytron.com/pdf/RadWire_history.pdf
Note the reference to a community television system in the 50's in Helena MT where this was used instead of coax. It was found that users just had to point their antennas to the powerline to pick up the TV signal! Now fast foward to:
»www.rubytron.com/ where they are selling an indoor G-line based system!
I don't think an uninsulated power line is a problem. All the utility has to do is string another, dead, insulated wire across the poles where needed.
Best of all, this thing works best ABOVE 50MHZ! | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Corridor is onto something! said by N0JCG :
I agree with RF engineer. The Corridor pictures look exactly like a G-line. The QST article you may been thinking of is "Putting the G-line to work" by George Hatherell K6LK in the June 1974 edition. There is another reference at the article »www.rubytron.com/pdf/RadWire_history.pdf
Isn't it ironic that Amateurs were talking about this in 1974 ?
quote:
Note the reference to a community television system in the 50's in Helena MT where this was used instead of coax. It was found that users just had to point their antennas to the powerline to pick up the TV signal! Now fast foward to:
»www.rubytron.com/ where they are selling an indoor G-line based system!
Whoop, there it is ! Rubytron's coupling unit looks just like Corridor's.
quote:
I don't think an uninsulated power line is a problem. All the utility has to do is string another, dead, insulated wire across the poles where needed.
Good point. A secondary line wouldn't have any really nasty requirements for mounting on the poles as it wouldn't be carrying high voltage. Come to think of it, there's no reason they couldn't use this on the ground wire instead of the "hot" cable. I seem to recall Corridor's pictures with the workmen installing it on a hot cable.
quote:
Best of all, this thing works best ABOVE 50MHZ!
Amen ! There's much more spectrum available at 2.4 and 5 Ghz, so a faster system could be built. The upper and middle UNII bands have around 200 Mhz of spectrum alone, versus the 80 Mhz in the HF/VHF low spectrum that the current BPL vendors are eyeing up. This is really a win/win situation all around. I'm beginning to feel more confident this new BPL is feasible. Main.net, Ambient, Amperion and others are in trouble. | |
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| | N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: Corridor is onto something! The 1974 connection to ham radio was not lost on me. Once again we were there relatively early.
Nothing beats a poor technology like a better technology! Any utility CEO worth his stock options would see that a fiber to the neighborhood/UNII to the user option is the way to go, not HF BPL. | |
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CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC
| Re: stringing new cabling If you are to do this and talking this kind of bandwidth, would you not be better off to string fiber over the powerline? I am guessing that the cost of stringing fiber is not all that different from stringing other material. Where is the cost saving (&risk reduction) on this new form of BPL?
[text was edited by author 2003-10-22 11:33:02] | |
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| | | N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN
| Re: stringing new cabling You are right, if you have to string something between the poles it might as well be fiber. The G-line would be an alternative (one of many) to bring the UNII signal into the premises, since those lines are almost always insulated. It could also be used to ship the signal around the neighborhood.
A problem with fiber is that it is pricy to "tap". That was one advantage of HF BPL. G-line gives a "tapable" local distribution field at 5GHZ, much like a long skinny cell tower. | |
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BPL Gets Less Static
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