Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me. Premium Member join:2001-04-19 1970 442 W30
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Bad Move.Yeah, that's it. Make it up/cover it over to be about the Children. Path: newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earth link.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: ericd@belkin.com (Eric Deming) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: [OT-evil marketing] Belkin does Verislime one better - router spam! Date: 5 Nov 2003 15:25:28 -0800 Organization: »groups.google.com Lines: 70 Message-ID: [c91e821d.0311051525.70aa9920@posting.google.com] References: [3FA87D03.E1C44EDE@DutchElmSt.invalid] [wh-dnR5oc5YJnDSiU-KYhA@giganews.com] NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.98.73.254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1068074728 22743 127.0.0.1 (5 Nov 2003 23:25:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:25:28 +0000 (UTC) Xref: news.earthlink.net news.admin.net-abuse.email:2054409 X-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:25:29 PST (newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net)
"JerryMouse" [nospam@bisusa.com] wrote in message news: [wh-dnR5oc5YJnDSiU-KYhA@giganews.com]... > Mr. Uh Clem wrote: > > [...] > > What does Belkin say when you complain? > > I'd make their life miserable until they removed the offending software from > my machine. > > You did not conset to this aspect of your machine's modification - this is > nothing less than malicious. > > Raise hell.
I was made aware of this posting by an e-mail that was sent to Belkin's tech support e-mail box. Since I am a product manager for Belkin's LAN products and was very involved with the development of the Parental Control feature, I feel that I can shed some light on this subject. Firstly, without trying to sound too stand-offish, we are not talking about SPAM here. For me to clarify, an understanding of the Parental Control service will really be needed.
Since Parental Control is a subscription service, Belkin wanted to make registering for the service very easy. Since the router actually will work in tandem with an outside server (Cerberian, www.cerberian.com) registration information needs to be collected and sent to Belkin and Cerberian to activate an account. Traditional methods of registration, such as asking the user to go to a website or navigate to the Router's internal Web page to enter information didn't meet the ease-of-use goal. We elected to re-direct one http request to the "Register Now" reminder page. (There is a link in a previous posting if you want to see it) This page asks the user to register for the service for a free 6 month trial. Now, granted this looks like an ad. It should, it is intended to be informative and easy enough to understand. At this point, the user can register or click "No Thanks". Clicking "No Thanks" sets a flag in the Router to stop the Router from re-directing every 8 hours to the reminder page. (Again remember, only one http request every 8 hours). Admittedly, there is no controlling which computer on the LAN this message will pop up on. If the user just closes the window without clicking "No Thanks", then the flag is never set, and the reminders will continue. Now, if you are the type that doesn't want to click the "No Thanks" button, then no problem. Navigate to the Router's internal web interface (default IP = 192.168.2.1), click on the Parental Control menu. In the Menu, select "Don't Remind every 8 hours" (This phrase actually varies a bit, but you get the idea) then click "Apply Changes". DONE. Nothing to it. By the way, this procedure might have to be done if your router is behind a firewall. Reason: filter.belkin.com sends a response to the Router to set the flag. Firewalls will block the response. This might explain the problem in a school for instance.
We did this not to be evil, we did this to make sure that any non-techy person (part of our target audience) would have ample opportunity to opt in or out of the free 6 month trial of the Parental Control feature. The Router doesn't collect information on you and send it to Belkin. We don't have the ability to SPAM you at a later time if you select "No Thanks" or turn off the Reminder manually. I know this feature might be misunderstood and might PO some people. I know the manual could do a better job explaining it. These are all things that we at Belkin are working to remedy.
Oh, one last bit, when upgrading firmware for the Routers that originally shipped without the Parental Control feature, the new firmware has this feature added. This was by popular demand. Our customer install base began to notice the Parental Control feature on new models that we are shipping, and wanted a solution for themselves without having to buy a new product. So, we accommodated them.
I'm happy to answer any questions if you have any. Thanks!
The lost message saved by Agent newsreader. | |
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Re: Bad Move.Well if its to fight terrorism then I guess its ok. Errr I mean for the children.. Something tells me they are just saying what people want to hear in order to get their way because they are greedy.. | |
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to Doctor Olds
Well, I'm certainly glad I never purchased any hardware from Belkin and after this post I never will. Nor will I ever recommend their products to any of my customers. Regardless of their motives it's unimaginable that someone, somewhere in their corporation thought this was a *good* idea! The stink and stigma of this will haunt them forever to those who investigate and research computer products.
Thoroughly disgusted! | |
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Re: Bad Move.Belkin not spammer anymore, Belkin is big brother big sister, haha, Belkin next is going to be anything and everything. | |
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| | dbarc3 join:2000-01-22 Fort Wayne, IN |
to Formeister
If they redirected once, it's too much. But once every 8 hours is disgusting. I have had clients use Belkin equipment, and will pass on the information about this move on their part.
I would question their liability. They were not redirecting based on your acceptance of any downloading of software, etc to your computer. And, if what I read correctly, they made no disclosure. IANAL, but I'd greatly question whether they are essentially hacking your internet data stream, which there are federal laws about. Remember, this is going on OUTSIDE your computer, much as if it was redirection at a edge router on the net installed by someone and done without knowledge. It's surreptitious and non disclosed. And as others said, there's much more than web pages that go through port 80 these days. I have a feeling they didn't pass this by their lawyers before they implemented it; and if they did, they should be looking for new lawyers. | |
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SarickIt's Only Logical Premium Member join:2003-06-03 USA
1 recommendation |
Sarick
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 10:10 am
What! Not a feature Spam is Spam.No It's not a feature. People don't need to get spammed from hardware.
Can't they see the news. No one wants spam.
Do Not Call List. Anti-Email Spam laws. And the wonderful programs that block popups.
It's obvious the only feature people would want is a removal feature. | |
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join:2000-11-27 |
Re: What! Not a feature Spam is Spam.The article was written a tad tongue-in-cheek Note feature is in quotes.. | |
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I Don't Care!It's too late. I never thought too highly of belkin anyway, but that wouldn't have stopped me from buying something of theirs if I was getting a good deal on it. Now I won't ever buy anything belkin (when presented with any choice in the matter) again.
When a company starts getting to where their products are doing things you didn't ask them to do, it's time to walk away.
peace | |
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| Blackhood5I Escaped Convergys Premium Member join:2002-08-24 Tallahassee, FL |
Re: I Don't Care!It's always been my opinion that Belkin makes cables. Not hardware. I've never purchased any hardware by Belkin and I've never recommended anyone else to do so. As a matter of fact I've told people not to. | |
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| | chuch join:2001-04-11 Tampa, FL |
chuch
Member
2003-Nov-9 11:47 am
Re: I Don't Care!I am with you. I have always thought that Belkin was over priced compared to other comperable brands (Netgear, Linksys, D-Link).
I never purchaced Belkin equipment just based on that fact, now, I have another reason not to buy their stuff.
I hope, for their sake, they have a good PR depeartment...they are going to need it! | |
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| | rchandraStargate Universe fan Premium Member join:2000-11-09 14225-2105 |
to Blackhood5
I don't even recommend people buy cables from them. I bought a HD50 to Centronics 50 SCSI cable from them that lasted maybe 5 uses (connecting up a standalone tape drive). | |
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CyberSchnook3Kiwi's Schnook Premium Member join:2002-07-27 Blue Nowhere |
Pedophiles......an admission by Belkin.
Congressional investigation to follow. | |
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| SmitedoggUzbekikitty Premium Member join:2000-11-11 Pueblo, CO |
Re: Pedophiles...Wow, that makes no sense at all. | |
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exocet_cmWriting Premium Member join:2003-03-23 Brooklyn, NY
1 recommendation |
So folks......what they're really saying is that "as long as it is for the children, we can annoy the hell out of ya".
Soon people will be robbing banks and convenience stores with "Give me all your freakin money! It's for the children!"
-- He that feeds a disease, feeds an enemy. Some diseases are starved. Starve your sins by fasting and humiliation. Either kill your sin, or your sin will kill you. - Thomas Watson Harmless as doves 131 | |
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rchandraStargate Universe fan Premium Member join:2000-11-09 14225-2105 |
rchandra
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 12:06 pm
bad, bad BelkinIt's Site Finder all over again. The difference is Belkin at least admits it's a problem, whereas NSI screams, "but the users WANT it." | |
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gatzdon join:2002-10-25 Lake Zurich, IL |
"Won't somebody please think about the children?!"I'm sorry, but the more I see this kind of thing, the more I am reminded of,
"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength"
Where will it stop. | |
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RayW Premium Member join:2001-09-01 Layton, UT |
RayW
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 12:29 pm
QuestionAfter reading the article and the knee jerks that hit it, I wonder:
Did the box the router come in mention this 'feature'? If it did not, then shame on them. If it was on the box, then what is there to gripe about?
The instruction manual supposedly covered that 'feature'. I know that real techies never read the manual, but why the big fuss over not handling it right? Although I did get the impression from what the Belkin rep said that it may not have been written for the average American reading level.
I know of a few people who would like and would buy based on that 'feature'. Myself, a router is suppose to route, not do oddball stuff. That addition to me would be a potential security hole. Granted I am not a router programmer and know little about the actual mechanics, but the software I do work with I know is weakened when we try to put those special touches that clueless management wants. | |
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| TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY |
Re: QuestionWhat I wonder is was this something new or just unexpected. I don't really have a problem with it. when I installed the drivers for my Santa Cruz sound card I had what could be considered spam, same with my ATI Radeon Video card. | |
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to RayW
Sounds more like an honest mistake...This sounds to me more like an honest mistake. The Belkins product guy offers a very straight-forward explanation. Simply put they wanted the product to be very easy to use for the average end-user. He states the redirect was put in for exactly this reason.
In fact this is a somewhat clever notion. Where they went wrong was in the user interface. The fact that so many people misunderstood is sufficient proof the user interface isn't quite right.
Now understand that getting the user interface wrong is a very, very, VERY common mistake. Pretty much everyone goofs up from time to time. Getting the user interface right all the time is hard, and mistakes are easy. I think we owe the Belkins guy a bit of slack.
Imagine instead that a small very polite gnome popped out of the router, walked over to you and said:
" By the way your router isn't completely setup. Here is want you might want to do. "
Aside from being a bit surprised, would you be upset? Probably not - in fact you might be rather pleased.
Unfortunately programming very polite gnomes is a bit beyond Belkins (and the rest of us), but I do believe the intent was the same. | |
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| | Bill_MIBill In Michigan MVM join:2001-01-03 Royal Oak, MI TP-Link Archer C7 Linksys WRT54GS Linksys WRT54G v4
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Re: Sounds more like an honest mistake...Pbannister, I agree. Belkin got the hard lesson: "don't put in things that call home... EVER!" There's a second one: "Get more input before depending on marketing ideas". They're in recovery mode so I don't think you'll see too many similar things from Belkin any time soon. | |
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to pbannister
This is no mistake. This is spam. They aren't helping you "completely setup" your router. They are redirecting you to their website in order to sell you an add-on. | |
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richk_1957If ..Then..Else Premium Member join:2001-04-11 Minas Tirith |
I a way, it makes sense..Belkin has parental controls built in to the router. - OK, good They want to make sure the parental controls are set up or disabled and/or subscribe to a service. - Good and anoying but not unusual You get messages from a server every 8 hours reminding you to set up the controls - BAD, BAD, BAD With the current SPAM situation & everybody being so touchy about it, they should have found some other way to send reminder! Even if you can disable the reminder. Somebody at Belkin, brain - switch on!
I didn't even know they made hardware [like routers], just cable | |
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Contrarywise
Anon
2003-Nov-11 12:17 pm
Re: I a way, it makes sense..You and they are both assuming that just because it's an http packet, it's going to a web site, and coming from a web browser. This may be typical, but is scarcely something that is dependable. There are many protocols that tunnel over http, especially with all the firewalls that block everything but port 80 (well, I exaggerate...there are other ports, but most of them are dedicated to functions, and 80 is the traditional port to use for variant stuff that needs to get through firewalls that can't be configured by the sender or recipient). And for some of these dropping a packet and replacing it with garbage (which is what this web page would be) can be disruptive, and potentially expensive. This is MUCH worse than just dropping the packet, which the protocol will need to have been designed to tolerate. | |
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NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny Yours MVM join:2001-08-03 Grand Rapids, MI |
Whatever happened to just being honest?It seems like, when it comes to technology, some companies are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the users. A good example is this spamming router. Why not just come out and admit, "Hey, we made a mistake" instead of calling it a feature and defending your position? Maybe it was a feature that shouldn't have been implemented?
This is something that I learned a long time ago and it has served me well. If I make a mistake, I just come out and admit it. Lying and covering things up only make you look worse. At least if you stand up for yourself and admit wrongdoing, then your friends, family, coworkers, and so on think more highly of you in the long run. | |
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| cmhbobDid...Did I Do That? Premium Member join:2001-03-13 Fort Gibson, OK Motorola MB7220
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cmhbob
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 2:09 pm
Re: Whatever happened to just being honest?Userfriendly responds to Belkin: | |
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Re: Whatever happened to just being honest?LOL!!! Great spoof!!!
I have one of these routers and it was kind of irritating when the message popped up a few days after I installed it. And of course, the first time I just went surfing past it so it came back the next day. However, that time I actually clicked "No Thanks" and it hasn't bugged me for the past couple months.
Is it a crisis? No. Was it annoying? Yes. Will they do it again? Not if they're smart.
Note to Belkin: Let people read the manual. If they want the service they'll activate it. If you're all so worried they're not going to buy it, toss a little brochure in the box or something. Just don't invade my browser or I will get defensive and you'll have no chance of success selling stuff to me. | |
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Dead Bob Premium Member join:2002-04-08 Mesa, AZ |
Dead Bob
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 3:05 pm
Damage controlThat post is nothing more than back peddling damage control. It'll be interesting to see what their holiday financial posting looks like after the first of the year. | |
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Doesnt sound so badIf its just for registration of a product. Still, nobody likes this approach. However, there is a strong likelyhood that this has helped simplify the parental control implementations in households that actually want this.
Many software companies like Real and the like, are far more annoying with their nagging and the way they constantly feel the need to re-add stuff to the startup, such as "realsched" which I cant for the life of me get rid of PERMANENTLY. | |
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| SkullBot join:2003-05-07 Huntington Beach, CA |
Re: Doesnt sound so badI see where your going, however a device such as a router should NEVER drop url's in favor of an advertisment. When said devices start doing such things they are not doing what they were designed to do. (unless the whole point is to slam you with ad's in which case it does that job fine)
If eric damming was doing his job (which he usually dosent) he would have thought to put this on the enclosed CD, NOT built into the hardware itself. Bad move, and I would hate to be back on the sales floor and get the flood of emails and phone calls from their angry clients on this one.
They were on the downward sprial when I left. I will be surprised if they last another 5 years.
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| | jeebix join:2003-11-14 Binghamton, NY |
jeebix
Member
2003-Nov-14 7:16 pm
Re: Doesnt sound so badSounds like you are a typical disgruntled ex employee. How can anyone take you seriously or even beleive you actually used to work at Belkin? | |
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| Taranis join:2001-12-06 Mount Vernon, WA |
to DSLTech5
I disagree disagree this makes anything easier for anyone. All it's done so far, is PO a lot of potential (and former) customers.
Read this "ad" or read the manual? Come on! Reading is reading. Does it really need to be dumbed down so far as to sending the user to the site instead of making them type in "http://register.belkin.com (or whatever the URL is)?
And as for RealPlayer.. heh...I wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. | |
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| dave Premium Member join:2000-05-04 not in ohio |
to DSLTech5
said by DSLTech5: If its just for registration of a product.
Well, they apparently do make the unfounded assumption that the HTTP request originates from a web browser with a person sitting in front of it, rather than (say) some program using a protocol layered over HTTP which will be mightily confused by getting random crap. Yeah, but what the hell? Who cares about violating standard protocols if there are potential sales involved? Now I think about it, this is worse that the Network Solutions foolishness. They at least only redirected erroneous requests. Belkin are redirectly correct requests. | |
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JRBlood Premium Member join:1999-12-28 Syracuse, NY |
JRBlood
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 4:30 pm
My URL, not yours, Belkin.One of the big problems I would have with this "feature" is the whole "grab a URL and redirect it" BS. A home or SOHO user could be doing important work, and having the router grab the link could cause problems. For instance, say someone is composing a long post, they go to submit it and the router decides now is the time to post this "feature". The user now lost the post and for whatever reasons s/he can't back up to resubmit the post. This is just an assumption on how this "feature" works from what I've read. So if I'm wrong, please be kind. | |
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Re: My URL, not yours, Belkin.People actually BUY Belkin routers? Hummm
"shakes his head" ym | |
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linicxCaveat Emptor Premium Member join:2002-12-03 United State |
linicx
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 5:56 pm
What's Wrong With A Button?Flags my foot!!
If Belken can make a router that actually works they should be able to add a child proof button that can turn turn the parental control on or off. | |
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newviewEx .. Ex .. Exactly Premium Member join:2001-10-01 Parsonsburg, MD |
newview
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 6:01 pm
User Friendly | |
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| nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
nixen
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 7:29 pm
Re: User FriendlyThat picture looks like a Sun E450: -tom | |
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MxxCon join:1999-11-19 Brooklyn, NY ARRIS TM822 Actiontec MI424WR Rev. I
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MxxCon
Member
2003-Nov-9 6:15 pm
OvERPRICED POSinteresting..a web page can set a flag in a router... i wonder how exploitable that will be i wonder if belkin will decide to replace that page with something else that will spawn regular popup ads i wonder if belkin can remotely flash bios of this router just from going to a webpage i wonder if balkin will decide it's time to force everybody to upgrade, and set ANOTHER FLAG in router which will refuse to work UNLESS YOU BUY A SUBSCRIPTION SERVICE FROM THEM. next thing you buy KVM switch and whenever you switch monitors before actual screen is shown, for 5 seconds you are presented with ad to for content filtering software! IT'S ALL FOR THE CHILDREN! god dammed greedy corporate whores! | |
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Re: OvERPRICED POSYou obviously don't own one of these things.
The web page is generated by the router. Just like the config pages that you use to set ALL the flags in the router. It pulls a few things from a remote server (images, probably current pricing) and sends details if you sign up. But it's not a remote server changing your local settings.
As for your title, My 4 port with WiFi was $20 A/R from Staples. Overpriced? | |
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nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
1 recommendation |
nixen
Premium Member
2003-Nov-9 7:31 pm
All I Gotta Ask Is...What is Belkin's stock ticker symbol? I gotta go short some stock. -tom | |
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Re: All I Gotta Ask Is...Belkin = privately held company. | |
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| | nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
nixen
Premium Member
2003-Nov-10 11:45 am
Re: All I Gotta Ask Is...said by Gearbox2: Belkin = privately held company.
Yeah. I did a symbol lookup before posting that. -tom | |
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jdir join:2001-05-04 Santa Clara, CA |
jdir
Member
2003-Nov-9 7:56 pm
How's this for a feature?Just bring your Belkin router back to the shop where you bought it from. | |
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Taranis join:2001-12-06 Mount Vernon, WA |
Taranis
Member
2003-Nov-10 12:29 am
You gotta be kidding me!"Traditional methods of registration, such as asking the user to go to a website or navigate to the Router's internal Web page to enter information didn't meet the ease-of-use goal."
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? You mean to tell me it's TOO DIFFICULT for the end user to READ THE F*&!!#@ MANUAL??
And you're going to sit there and basically call your customers stupid (yes, read this "ad" instead of the manual - DUH! - "oh yes, that's much easier!" *PUKE* when you're simply spamming your customers to sell your subscription service.
You can cover dogsh*t with gravy and call it dinner, but in the end, you're still eatin' dogsh*t.
What a load of BS.. | |
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awwwww its the childrenWell, we will add all Belkin products to the list of things I will never buy. Its funny I find this the same day my hardware store informs me the rait bait I have used in the past and was very effective has been pulled to protect the children. | |
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