  Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | Not going there Here we go again with yet another round of radio defenders versus broadband wanters. I hope this won't turn into another ham bashing fest.
I challenge the broadband wanters to submit their posts minus the usual ham disparaging content. Please leave out the "hams can go to hell" kind of stuff; it's been over done.
I wonder if Hydro-Québec is a visitor of BBR and, if so, do they care? Or are they just money-hungry?
I look forward to seeing how their deployment is any different from any other BPL that has been tried and has failed throughout the world. If the artcle stated "fiber on the line", I missed it and my post is moot.
It's no secret that I am against BPL because of interference issues. I have been involved with more than my share of flame wars and I know this is a hot topic.
Cheers.
--
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 | Reviews:
 ·Shaw
| Re: Not going there "Hydro-Québec to launch trials"
And Trials is what they are. If any problems come up and the problems outweigh the benefits then it should be and most likely will be canned. If the problem is only a couple HAM ops are getting some static then they will have to suck it up. I mean almost everything throws off some kinda interference. When I use my cordless phone and the microwave is running, behold, my phone gets static... it happens, and I deal with it. | |
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| | | | Re: Not going there Now imagine if that static was constant, and eminating from multiple directions....your Microwave is only on for short periods.... | |
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| | | | | go here If you are against BPL post this gif on your web page | |
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| | | | Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA
1 edit | Re: go here said by Radio Freak:
If you are against BPL post this gif on your web page
Which GIF? There was no GIF in that post, nor a link to one. Are you talking to me or Karl? I didn't see his statement againts BPL; I am assuming you are speaking to me. Please post the GIF; if it is appropriate and you are indeed speaking to me I will put it up.
Cheers.
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I once accidentally spilled spot remover on my dog and he disappeared. Take a look at these sites: »www.prepaidlegal.com/info/kfolsom (Pre-Paid Legal Memberships)»www.prepaidlegal.com/go/kfolsom (Business Opportunity)»www.folsomtech.com | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: go here and if this won't work just go here:
ve7lgt1.tripod.com | |
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| | | | | | | Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA
2 edits | Re: go here I like it. I have added it to my site: »folsomtech.com on my index page and on my links page. I have also hypered it to your site, so some of the "MASSIVE" traffic I get will spillover onto yours 
Cheers. | |
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| | Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | said by wilburyan:
"Hydro-Québec to launch trials"
And Trials is what they are. If any problems come up and the problems outweigh the benefits then it should be and most likely will be canned. If the problem is only a couple HAM ops are getting some static then they will have to suck it up. I mean almost everything throws off some kinda interference. When I use my cordless phone and the microwave is running, behold, my phone gets static... it happens, and I deal with it.
I agree with you about almost everything emitting interference. But you mention sporadic interference; when our friends to the north begin trials, the results will, hopefully, be widely publicized. Hopefully, we hams will be proven wrong about the deleterious effect of BPL on a world-wide scale, and that interference will be slight to non-existant, but I have my doubts... There are trials in Manassas which are ongoing and the subject of some hot debate.
If they use 5 GHz BPL, then there will be none of that, and local interference(if any)is much more easily mitigated.
Don't get me wrong, though... I hope that broadband can be brought to everyone in the world who wants it.
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| | |  TomekPremium
join:2002-01-30
Valley Stream, NY | Re: Not going there Do new cordless phones and wi-fi(a) use 5Ghz spectrum?
I wonder what kind of interference exists with BPL.
Maybe Quebec trials can resolved them.
I would like to see some competition and prices dropping, speeds increasing.
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We are the Borg! Resistance Is Futile! You Will Be Assimilated! | |
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| | | | Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | Re: Not going there said by Tomek:
Do new cordless phones and wi-fi(a) use 5Ghz spectrum?
I wonder what kind of interference exists with BPL.
Maybe Quebec trials can resolved them.
I would like to see some competition and prices dropping, speeds increasing.
This may be an incomplete response, but the info I have is:
There are, in the US, cordless phones that use 5 GHz; don't know about our friends to the north.
It has been pointed out by other posters in other threads that 802.11(a) is mainly an inside, shorter range(not sure, but FHSS is the spreading scheme-I think-versus DSSS) utilization of Wi-Fi, so interference is not likely to be difficult to mitigate.
I would also like to see prices down and speeds/throughput up.
I would hazard a guess that there will be MANY eyes on this one.
--
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| | | | | | | Re: Not going there I hope they get the bugs worked out (so I can try something similar in my neighborhood.) The last time I checked, certain kinds of low-power carrier current broadcasting can be done legally without a license. Unfortunately those frequencies are probably too low to be useful.
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Consultant. Programmer. Author of SafeTasks for XP. Site Admin for: »comptune.com, »anch.org, »nerds.tk, »mixculture.org, and »eq2.us | |
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| | | | | | Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | Re: Not going there said by TheNerdShow:
I hope they get the bugs worked out (so I can try something similar in my neighborhood.) The last time I checked, certain kinds of low-power carrier current broadcasting can be done legally without a license. Unfortunately those frequencies are probably too low to be useful.
Sure, but watch out for part 15! There are many technologies and networking topologies that utilize powerlines in the residence, but the power levels needed and ancillary equipment required(repeaters) make it unfeasible to implement by the private sector. There are intercoms you can get from radio shack that use FM, but those are fairly narrowband.
--
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| str7
join:2003-07-04
canada | said by Radio Active:
I wonder if Hydro-Québec is a visitor of BBR and, if so, do they care? Or are they just money-hungry?
Hydro-Quebec is a government property. The current government is money hungry though so that's a possibility. | |
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2 edits | BPL humour in Quebec Speaking with experience, people in Quebec can have a warped sense of humour including the PR department of HQ. It will be interesting to watch how Industry Canada based in Ottawa will handle the dead horse reincarnation in Montreal and Quebec City now for a matter that some may deem to be of provincial sovereinty. Also odd that this news was first reported out of Toronto. On the other hand, I will give Hydro Quebec due credits for holding their section of the grid during the recent eastern black out and for having invested in hydro renewable energy in such a large way. I trust that they are smart enough to not deploy BPL and are just playing. A lot can happen in seven years. | |
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| Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | Re: BPL humour in Quebec But this topic/horse is still good for a few more whacks, don't you think, CheeseWare?
I was hoping you would pop in. | |
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| | | | Re: BPL humour in Quebec Not whacks but I can definitely now see this Red Green BPL mobile car project hanging from the powerline with some duct tape with the capture; "I know it is ugly, but we have found a cheap way to deploy these BPL repeaters while containing and testing interference". They can then ship to Hollywood and demonstrate that doe can be made on BPL. | |
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| | | Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | Re: BPL humour in Quebec I wonder if that would be "Made for cable" or "Made for BPL"?
"Coming soon to a PC near you"!
What an epic. | |
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| | | | | | Re: BPL humour in Quebec This is when we need Terminator-4 made in California. I do not think that Arnie would let the import in without a good fight. I am telling him: start with BPL and keep it in your backyard . Should be worth a few GigaWatts from Quebec or BC. | |
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| | | My concern is that Bylingual Broadband will take up twice the spectrum . But than again Quebec has the language police to prevent the use of english HIHI EH!!! | |
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| | Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | Re: BPL humour in Quebec said by Radio Freak:
My concern is that Bylingual Broadband will take up twice the spectrum . But than again Quebec has the language police to prevent the use of english HIHI EH!!!
Welcome to BBR! | |
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N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN | Message is getting out Looks like the message on interference is getting out. At least this article mentions interference in the first release, rather than in a followup. | |
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 oliphant5Got Identity?Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA | I dunno much about RF But I wonder if those theories we read over the weekend about placing magnets in microwaves to control interference can somehow be used to help control RF interference from BPL.
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Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network »www.theanimenetwork.com/index.html And something pretty good from the Cooler »elev.ru.orebro.se/ru0369/HAHAHAHA.MPG | |
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| Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | Re: I dunno much about RF said by oliphant5:
But I wonder if those theories we read over the weekend about placing magnets in microwaves to control interference can somehow be used to help control RF interference from BPL.
Good idea; I nominate you to be in charge of that.
J/K. But I bet the size of those magnets would be soooooooooo big that they would dwarf even the largest hydro-electric dam.
--
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| | oliphant5Got Identity?Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA | Re: I dunno much about RF If they worked at all, you would only need them in areas where the emissions cause problems. | |
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| | | | | Re: I dunno much about RF I heard that the AM/FM broadcast industry's main group is getting on the boat for a vote against BPL because of interference also. Apparently in some of the test locations it totally wipes out peoples reception. So much for listening to your favorite talk show on AM radio. "A" | |
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| | | | oliphant5Got Identity?Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA | Re: I dunno much about RF I'll revolt...I'm a talk-radio junkie. | |
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| | | | Radio ActiveMy pappy's a pistolPremium
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA | said by todays0:
I heard that the AM/FM broadcast industry's main group is getting on the boat for a vote against BPL because of interference also. Apparently in some of the test locations it totally wipes out peoples reception. So much for listening to your favorite talk show on AM radio. "A"
Nice to hear not only hams are against this. Kinda lonely working in a vacuum.
--
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| | | Try putting some shotgun shells in your microwave it will silence everything. | |
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| | Gimme Speed Over The Power Lines!!!!!!!!!!! Bring it on!!Yehaaaaa!!!!!! | |
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| | | Re: Gimme Speed Over The Power Lines!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe I just sat here and read all these !!
I am not a HAM or even live up there but I just keep wondering what's going to Happen with the Cat that got let out of the bag in two different ways.
1) The Fogal Transistor, I would assume it's getting hidden deep inside any of the New systems that are starting to work at Multi-GigaHertz speeds. But it should lend itself to Powerline commuinactions also.
2) I watched, more then once, a quick little blurb on TV (either the Discovery Channel or TLC) about (With Video coverage of the LIVE Demo) FASTER then LIGHT SPEED communication thru solids. It was a German University or Company but they were having a HARD time getting people to believe them EVEN WITH BEING ABLE TO REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATE IT !
SOOO ! I would guess that Power Line communications will be here sooner or later and without interference to Other Technologies.
JUST A THOUGHT !!! | |
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| | N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN | Re: Gimme Speed Over The Power Lines!!!!!!!!!!! You've been watching too much science fiction. | |
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| | | | | Re: Gimme Speed Over The Power Lines!!!!!!!!!!! I agree. Just got done watching T3 for the 5th time. | |
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| | | | said by SR_BMET:
I would guess that Power Line communications will be here sooner or later and without interference to Other Technologies.
Well, a new transistor isn't needed to make BPL interference free. The system from Corridor that uses 5 Ghz surface wave would not interfere with shortwave/HF radio spectrum. And realize there's plenty of conventional semiconductor devices today that work into the mult-gigabit/hertz ranges.
Putting gigabit communications on a power line is like building an F-16 on a Yugo chassis. By the time you get done enhancing and extending the Yugo chassis, you might as well have built an F-16 from scratch. FTTH can deliver more bandwidth to the home than will be needed in the next century -- it's the interference free "future proof" solution. | |
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| | | | | Re: Gimme Speed Over The Power Lines!!!!!!!!!!! To rf_engineer and all, here is a link to Fogal's work.
There used to be additional information on some of the very interesting results from work he and people with him were able to obtain but I need to Re-Find that information.
»www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/fogal_device/
One of the descriptions of tests they did was of putting Video within a 5vdc line but using a signal that would not be detectable with your normal O'scope (1mv) and another where they showed extracting large amounts of additional data that was already available within a regular recorded video (VCR) tape.
This I found very interesting from the point of view of medical work.
Just some thoughts out loud but I would hope Fogal does get some Credit down the road for his work.
eom.
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| | | Re: Obligatory FAQ Link Post :-) Your FAQ list is interesting but very biased and misleading towards WIFI. That is no wonder since you work in WIFI and like most people that do are running scared of the BPL technology.
First of all the main testing has not been done in the states, in fact the states is way behind the rest of the world. The main tests have been doen in Europe and I have had a broadband service to my home in the UK for several months and have had not interference and great speed. Something that DSL and WIFI could not provide. I am also a HAM radio Amateur and I can say from experience that there is absolutely no problems with interference. If the was I would not have got it. This was also my concerns after all the hype being spread about interference, and I can say that this is all smoke.
From what I know from my investigations there are no companies using the 1-80 Mhz as you say in your document, if so then please let me know. Also any interference, if it did ever happen can be supressed easily using simple software packages, which can take out the offending frequencies. So far this has not been necessary, surprising after all the hype, and since in this area there are so many Ham Radio operators.
Also I belive in other countries in Europe there are something like 25,000 homes with PLC, if this is the case and there are problems they definitely would not still be in operation. Also my equipment also has the CE mark and would not have it were it not compliant. The CE mark is also a lot stricter than FCC part 15
The main problem with BPL is that people have been badly informed, many scare mongerers come along afraid of the competition and decide to hype up something that does not exist. All HAM radio people I can assure you that there is no problem whatsoever.
I would say one thing the idea that you have of putting a 5Ghz signal along the line, now that is worrying, I would not like to live in that area. The radiation of that would be immense. I cannot understand how you can say the 1-30MHz system is so bad and then say that the other is OK when obviously it would be disastrous.
Fianlly, I would say yay for BPL, if the good old USA wants to remain in the dark ages then use WIFI, which does not work. BPL is the only technology that works and does not interfere with HAMs. ( Of course it also depends on the vendor that you are using) | |
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| | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO | Re: Obligatory FAQ Link Post :-) If you are a ham operator, then you must be only on VHF and UHF bands because on HF from 1-30Mhz it gets totally wiped out with s9 +10-15db over noise floor near the BPL systems. I for one have seen the results at 14Mhz and up, and they render those bands totally useless. So if you never operate HF in the area of a BPL system (within 10-30 blocks), Try turning on a shortwave receiver and tuning into radio netherlands or the bbc at around 9.5Mhz band. You will not be able to hear anything but noise S9+10-15db over. We have a relatively quiet noise floor out here in the front range of the rockies, and I am documenting that quiet noise floor with NIST traceable equipment. This will enable a reference to measure by in case BPL ever gets deployed out here, in which to make formal complaints. If and when it gets deployed here, if the noise floor raises even 1db (part 15 limits today within 30 ft.), I will make formal complaints. But it will be way over that range because in Manassas, VA., the ARRL has shown with just an ordinary HF rig (tuned to 14Mhz band)and mobile antenna that has mega losses that the noise level increases as much as 30db over normal levels. I for one operate in the HF bands and also operate in VHF, UHF, and microwave bands as well for the AO-40 satellite which has it's downlink at 2.4Ghz and uplink at 70cm/1.2Ghz simultaneously. So I will be monitoring and documenting all those bands normal noise levels also. Be careful what you say here as there are many knowledgeable people reading this stuff. Rf Engineer's idea of deploying broadband signals way up the spectrum is a valid idea, especially with the bandwidths of spectrum that will be needed under high user loads. It would not interfere with a tenth of the services it will at the HF bands (1-80Mhz).
That's just a bad idea and opens the door to a whole plethora of interference issues. The power lines are not designed to carry HF signals and much less microwave signals very far, as they will radiate. The power lines make great longwire antennas at around 5Mhz, but thats not to say they won't radiate at any other frequencies. They will. And as for underground power lines, they will still radiate although attenuated by aprox. 3db. That's nothing when you're dealing with 30+db of broadband noise, and when they come up into buildings walls and ceilings, walla another radiator at full strength. Your everyday items like baby monitors, cordless phones, garage door openers etc., will have randomly unpredictable problems also. I seriously doubt you operate HF, if you are a ham, you are probably one of those (no code lids) who stay on 2m and 70cm. If not, speak up I want to hear more about your noise levels on HF. | |
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| | | | | Re: Obligatory FAQ Link Post :-) I operate on several bands and have no problem, in fact I have had more problems with a motorcycle going past or someone using a drill than I have had with the PLC. If you know anything they you know that every electronic device that exists emits so to say that it is only BPL is very naive. In fact with a radio things as common as ADSL or ethernet cause interference, so what do we do get rid of them all. If you have results then I would love to see them and like to know how they were taken. So how about some of those documkents that you have been preparing.
The idea of using 5Ghz is not a good option and putting 5Ghz down the line how far will you get 2cm, come on get real. I thought you knew something. The attenuation would be enormous
My motto is live and let live, we cannot stand in the way of something that is such a breakthrough, because we want to use our radios we are going to deprieve thousands of people of information that can be downloaded, and that can improve the education of our children, this is very selfish and egoistic. To bring communications to thousands in remote places is not a bad thing it is good for society as a whole.
As far as the emergency services are concerned here in the UK those frequencies have been protected and there is no problems.
I a an enthusiastic radio user and I accept that we have to welcome this technology as something good. | |
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| | | | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO | Re: Obligatory FAQ Link Post :-) Yes I agree that it would be good if it does not cause interference to existing radio services through unintended radiation from the power line grid. I don't know about there, but over here the power lines are in sad shape and have been neglected over the years by the power companies. This is true for most of the country, some places worse than others though. The poor line conditions will cause non-linear components to be radiated as well through poor insulators, leaky connections/splices etc. The power companies here have a hard time responding to legitimate interference complaints now, which would be very easy to remedy, if they respond at all. What's to say they will take care of additional complaints after BPL is deployed? I don't think the give a damn - never will. All they want is money money money. Why deploy an archaic technology when there is broadband in most places already (cable modem, DSL, satellite, etc etc.)? Heck most internet users still are happy with just a "dial up" connection from their homes, and they use T1 lines at work to do any downloading.
But I also understand how people would want a cheap broadband solution too, so they can do online gaming and downloading that porn stuff that they can't do at work.
If they want to complete that "last mile" then just finish laying the fiber optic cable that was started 10 or more years ago. It should've been done by now but the networking companies got greedy and kept the termination ends in their server locations and then just farmed out connections to it. The data I am compiling is incomplete as of yet because BPL is not being tested in my location yet, so far I only have the normal "quiet" s-3 type noise floor here on most bands from 80meters up to 1.2GHz. This I can use against any new readings after deployment here. If you had looked at the videos at ARRL webpage taken in Manassas, Va. you would see why we are all upset. It shows s-9 +15db of hash noise across the entire 20 meter band. That happens to be my favorite band, and I do weak signal DXing there, have for years. It also is right smack in the middle of the BPL spectrum when under light user loads. QRP operation would be all but usable. Oh well they are removing CW requirements now, so what's stopping them from destroying any weak signal HF work? Nothing. It's who's got the money.
To hell with physics and any common sense. Physics will not change for any money hungry companies, an open wire will radiate when an RF signal is introduced to one end, regardless of frequency. Many studies on this BPL technology have already been done in other countries and have shown excessive interference to HF/VHF bands and either banned all together or put on the shelf until something is invented that will improve it. Those who ignor history are doomed to repeat it. Nothing has been done to show the effects to BPL when HF transmissions occur nearby. That is a whole other subject but will the companies responsible do any studies on this direction before deployment? I seriously doubt it, they have hardly shown the interference potentials to date why should they when the dollar sign is in their eyes. | |
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| | | | | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO | Interference to PLC systems Interference to PLC systems from Amateur Radio Operation
Interference is a two-way street, and PLC systems are at significant risk from amateur HF operation. In the US, amateurs are limited to 1500 watts PEP RF output, but there is no limit to the antenna gain. As a practical matter, few amateur antennas exceed 13 dBi on HF. This means, however, that the EIRP from amateur stations can exceed 20,000 watts. These stations can have antennas that are as close as about 10 meters or so the the electrical distribution systems.
Here is an estimate of the interference potential of a more modest HF station on 7.15 MHz:
Those unshielded overhead power lines are not great antennas, but they can and will pick up our signals. Here is a quick calculation:
Transmit power: +26 dBW (400 watts)
Transmit frequency: 7.15 MHz
Distance between antenna and power line: 20 meters
Path loss: -15.6 dB
Transmit antenna gain (with ground reflection): 6 dBi
Power-line antenna gain: -10 dBi (estimate)
Power picked up on power line:
+26 dBW
-15.6 dB
+6 dBi
-10 dBi
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+6.4 dBW (4.4 watts)
The total power of their signal inside the line is going to be about 10 milliwatts, and when we transmit, PLC wiring may pick up 4 watts of our power right inside the frequencies PLC is using. It is unlikely that PLC systems will continue to function in the presence of these signal levels. And this example is of a completely legal operation of an amateur radio station on 40 meters. Now on 20, 15, and 10 meters it will be possible to have much higher eirp because of the directional antennas in use there, many of which are on an even level with the power lines and many of which are using horizontal polarization. This will ad a few more db to the "gain" of the system into the power lines. | |
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