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Canadian BPL
One massive electro-Wi-Fi hotspot
Canada's first broadband via powerline deployment has taken off in the 75,000 person city of Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. The project, deployed by PUC Telecom and using Amperion gear, will essentially turn the city into one-giant hotspot - users within 150 yards of deployed access points are then routed over portions of the power grid and the company's fiber optic backbone. Unlike other BPL (broadband via powerline) deployments that offer connectivity through your home power outlet, subscribers in Sault Ste. Marie will pay a subscription fee and have access to the system anywhere there's an access point. The Toronto Star, ITbusiness.com, and the Amperion press release have additional detail. Amperion has been a little more responsive to concerns about interference - meeting with radio hobbyists in North Carolina to address concerns about interference from a trial there.
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ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana

ronpin

Member

Is it really BPL?

quote:
will essentially turn the city into one-giant hotspot
Heh-heh at this time of year -- don't they wish.

This sounds like fiber-drop hotspots -- not "true" BPL?

DOOMSDAY121
@205.173.x.x

DOOMSDAY121

Anon

Re: Is it really BPL?

I just wonder how that city will stop the ham radio operators from rioting.

n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY

n2jtx

Member

Re: Is it really BPL?

Amateur Radio does not receive the same level of support from the Canadian government as it does here in the United States. In fact, since 9/11, government recognition and support, especially from DHS, has increased enormously. On the bright side, with such a large rollout, it will be a good test bed for us here in the States to watch and learn from.

CheeseWare
Premium Member
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

1 edit

CheeseWare

Premium Member

Re: Is it really BPL?

How many countries do you need to learn from before you figure out that this technology is a dead horse, no matter how the PUC Public Relations folks keep respinning the story? How about a United Nations resolution?

There is really not much to watch for in Canada on BPL other than this upcoming Red Green show that will describe how to duct tape one of these BPL repeaters, contain the leaks and spit out colourful Canadian monopoly money

Radio Active
My pappy's a pistol
Premium Member
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA

Radio Active to DOOMSDAY121

Premium Member

to DOOMSDAY121
said by DOOMSDAY121:
I just wonder how that city will stop the ham radio operators from rioting.

Ham radio operators don't riot... We radiate.

The "law of reciprocity" dictates that any ingressing packet is matched by (an egressing) emission by the "licensed" services in that spectrum.

Not that any "good" ham would do this on purpose... After all, we hams strive for "spectrum sharing" and BPL does not share...

So much for reciprocity...

Cheeseware, my worthy Canadian counterpart, do you have a pertinent addition to this thread?

Lone Wolf
Retired
Premium Member
join:2001-12-30
USA

Lone Wolf

Premium Member

WiFi BPL!

It's WiFi over Power Lines. From the Star, "Wyant is quick to point out PUC won't be using power lines to deliver Internet access directly into the home. Instead, the company is installing wireless access points along its medium-voltage lines in densely populated residential areas.

These wireless "boxes" convert data so they can be sent through the grid and on to PUC's fibre-optic backbone, which connects to the Internet. Home computers equipped with 802.11b or "Wi-Fi" wireless access cards and within 150 metres of these access points will be able to use the service."

I'd like to be a WiFi access card reseller there!

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

Member

Re: WiFi BPL!

You probably wouldn't want to be a reseller. I've lived in Sault Ste. Marie, Canada. Lots of snow. Shaw cable / Bell Canada also have Internet up there as well. Great city during the summer, lots of snow during the winter.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer to Lone Wolf

Member

to Lone Wolf
said by Lone Wolf:
It's WiFi over Power Lines. From the Star, "Wyant is quick to point out PUC won't be using power lines to deliver Internet access directly into the home. Instead, the company is installing wireless access points along its medium-voltage lines in densely populated residential areas.

It's the Amperion system. While the powerline to home link is WiFi, they still use HF frequencies on the powerlines like all the other BPL vendors (except for Corridor which is entirely WiFi).

rillbee
join:2003-12-05
Mckinney, TX

rillbee

Member

No more radiation!

As if the high tension wires weren't emitting enough carcinogenic radiation already, lets add some 2.4GHz 802.11 in there!

I hate nazi-hams
@mpowercom.net

I hate nazi-hams

Anon

Thanks god Canada has no nazi-hams!

That is great to know that there is some progress in this technology in Canada. Unlike in US, they don't have nazi-hams hounding everyone who "dares" to touch their precious HOBBY.
My buddy in the burbs of Chicago tried putting his access point on channel one and there was some idiot from next door bitching that his sat. is getting interference. Time to get a good old microwave, remove the damn shielding and turn it on outside of your house, get the HAMs the taste of how it feels to hear from them (or read their posts).
Move over, other technologies are coming. And for local authorities - if you can spend $500 on a toilet, $10 million on trucks that just sit idle, you can figure out where to cut some expenses and pay for some new hardware so you don't stand in the way of progress.
Now lets watch the flame war start!

kv5e
Ride Free
Premium Member
join:2001-12-04
Mesquite, TX

kv5e

Premium Member

Re: Thanks god Canada has no nazi-hams!

Mr. Unregistered,

I am sorry that your friend had to make the extraordinary effort of a few mouse clicks to change his AP channel.

The satellites we work on 2.4 GHz are in space and we just can't go install new hardware on a whim. Additionally, CFR 47 Part 97 gives the Amateur Radio Service "first dibs" on that frequency range which in our band plan is reserved for weak signal operation. Part 15 users must endure any interference they receive and may not cause interference.

The amateur is a licensed station, and as such has the right to ask an unlicensed user to prevent interference.

BTW, an intentional interference source is subject to a NAL from the FCC and the fines can start at $8K with your equipment going into the Federal black hole.

If this amatuer was not courteous in his request to your friend, then shame on us!

Let's all be good neighbors and use this communications resource wisely and with amicability, please!

Regards,

KV5E
russotto
join:2000-10-05
West Orange, NJ

russotto

Member

Re: Thanks god Canada has no nazi-hams!

Bah. Think you're special just because you can jump through a few govt hoops and maybe can understand Morse? It's one thing to complain about widespread broadband interference like BPL, quite another to bitch about a neighbors little 100mW unlicensed transmitter and tell him he can't use wireless because your govt paper is more important than his.

I agree with Mr. Unregistered -- time to take the door off the microwave and treat the ham to several hundred watts of interference.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer

Member

Re: Thanks god Canada has no nazi-hams!

said by russotto:
Bah. Think you're special just because you can jump through a few govt hoops and maybe can understand Morse? It's one thing to complain about widespread broadband interference like BPL, quite another to bitch about a neighbors little 100mW unlicensed transmitter and tell him he can't use wireless because your govt paper is more important than his.

I agree with Mr. Unregistered -- time to take the door off the microwave and treat the ham to several hundred watts of interference.

You need to do a little more research. Hams do a lot more than communicate with morse code. Plus BPL stands to interfere with government, maritime, aviation, international broadcast, and public safety frequencies as well. »www.qrpis.org/~k3ng/bpl.html

kv5e
Ride Free
Premium Member
join:2001-12-04
Mesquite, TX

kv5e to russotto

Premium Member

to russotto
My argument is technical for this case!

100 mw AP in the near field just about smothers weak signal operation on this satellite band. The link budgets envolved (due to the low power transponders compared to commercial satellites) are orders of magnitude below what AP and Client cards are using. Even with polarity and spatial isolation you can only eliminate so much interference.

What is so difficult about moving up to another channel?

I would do it if asked.

If you take the door off the microwave, put it waist high and do us all a favor and stand in front of it. No sense in propagating ignorance and intolerance in the gene pool!

Play a Doug Clark album while you do it as well.

KV5E

tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA

tenbase to russotto

Member

to russotto
Erm, it's called entitlement to privileges earned. Believe it or not, simply being born and taking up space does not automatically give you the right to do as you please, every so often you actually have to exert a modicum of *work* for them. Certain portions of the radio spectrum happen to be one of those entitlements.

Like it or not, portions of the Part 15 2.4GHz spectrum are also shared with government and amateur licensees. Unlicensed Part 15 users may not cause harmful interference to primary or secondary services and also may not claim protection from either. If you can't respect that, then that's your problem.

AnonymousDude
@cableone.net

AnonymousDude to russotto

Anon

to russotto
> quite another to bitch about a neighbors little 100mW
> unlicensed transmitter and tell him he can't use
> wireless because your govt paper is more important than
> his.

If the neighbor's little 100mW unlicensed transmitter is interfering with a licensed service, it's the neighbor's job to move. Deal with the reality of spectrum sharing.

> I agree with Mr. Unregistered -- time to take the door
> off the microwave and treat the ham to several hundred
> watts of interference.

It sounds like it isn't just the hams that are Nazis.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer to I hate nazi-hams

Member

to I hate nazi-hams
said by I hate nazi-hams:
That is great to know that there is some progress in this technology in Canada. Unlike in US, they don't have nazi-hams hounding everyone who "dares" to touch their precious HOBBY.
Do we have to go through all the explanations again about how Ham Radio is only a small part of the affected spectrum?
quote:

My buddy in the burbs of Chicago tried putting his access point on channel one and there was some idiot from next door bitching that his sat. is getting interference. Time to get a good old microwave, remove the damn shielding and turn it on outside of your house, get the HAMs the taste of how it feels to hear from them (or read their posts).
Move over, other technologies are coming.
That makes a lot of sense , interfere with a licensed service and create a biological hazard because your unlicensed AP has to change frequencies after interfering with a licensed service. Whether you knew it or not, when you buy a Part 15 device, you're accepting these legal stipulations.

Furthermore, everyone is under the misimpression that BPL is high technology. It's clearly not. It's a wired network that radiates. It's in the Dark Ages.
quote:

And for local authorities - if you can spend $500 on a toilet, $10 million on trucks that just sit idle, you can figure out where to cut some expenses and pay for some new hardware so you don't stand in the way of progress.
Fiber is progress. BPL is just a hack that attempts to ignore physics that were discovered in the early 20th century. If utilities and others involved where truely interested in progress, they wouldn't be trying to railroad through such a poorly designed system -- we'd be running fiber.

And how is destroying an international spectrum resource progress ?
quote:

Now lets watch the flame war start!

Do you actually have any valid coherent arguements, or are you just another troll ? I think I know the answer.

CheeseWare
Premium Member
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

1 edit

CheeseWare to I hate nazi-hams

Premium Member

to I hate nazi-hams
We don't have trolls either and filter them at the border. We generally have a good sense of humour and often make an export of it. We do have lots of environmental degradation RF aware people and do easily make friends with people that care about each others such as the hams.
w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO

w2co to I hate nazi-hams

Member

to I hate nazi-hams
Here we go again with another unidentified illiterate bithead who just spouts his mouth off at something even though they know nothing about the subject. Jeeze bithead, go back to your baby monitor and get away from the keyboard.

SpectrumHawg
@direcpc.com

SpectrumHawg

Anon

Share the spectrum

Seems to me the average neighborhood block might have 1 ham operator and 10 or more people that need broadband to telecommute. Clearly, we need to reallocate the spectrum so the rest of us can make use of the airwaves.
Looks to me like some hams are just stingy, self-centered spectrum hogs.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

1 edit

1 recommendation

rf_engineer

Member

Re: Share the spectrum

said by SpectrumHawg:
Seems to me the average neighborhood block might have 1 ham operator and 10 or more people that need broadband to telecommute. Clearly, we need to reallocate the spectrum so the rest of us can make use of the airwaves.

How many times do we have to mention that Ham Radio occupies only less than 10 percent of the affected spectrum. The rest of the users include government, military, maritime, aviation, international broadcasting, and public safety. It's not practical from an economic or logistical view to relocate all these services. Additionally it's just plain stupid that a wired network would render wireless spectrum useless. If you want to "have the rest of us use the airwaves" for broadband access, that's fine. You already have over about 300 Mhz of spectrum available in the 2.4 Ghz (ISM) and 5 Ghz (UNII) band and the regulations are specifically tailored to allow higher power levels than you could ever use in HF bands under unlicensed Part 15 operation. What is there to reallocate as you suggest so you can make use of the airwaves ? To accomodate a technology that is flawed and shouldn't need to radiate in the first place ???

If you look at the Amperion system, it uses a 3.5 Mhz wide downstream channel and a 2.5 Mhz wide upstream channel on each segment in between repeaters. That's 5 Mhz for each segment, and they work in a range between 1 and 50 Mhz. Frequencies can be reused, but only several repeater segments down the line. So it's probable that in any given neighborhood the Amperion system will need to use all of the HF spectrum.

Sharing the spectrum may sound really good on paper but in reality it's overly idealistic and not realistic. If BPL proponents were interested in sharing and were actually going after a real spectrum allocation in the HF bands, they'd be lucky to get 1 Mhz. There's not many empty spaces and much of HF is under the control of the NTIA or subject to international regulatory bodies.
quote:
Looks to me like some hams are just stingy, self-centered spectrum hogs.
Looks can be deceiving. Do your research.

kv5e
Ride Free
Premium Member
join:2001-12-04
Mesquite, TX

kv5e

Premium Member

Re: Share the spectrum

Well....I guess in some oblique and tangential thought process, Hams do come from hogs.

;^)

KILOVOLT FIVE ELECTRON

tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA

tenbase to rf_engineer

Member

to rf_engineer
Great response as usual NG, but we are wasting our time responding to the unregistered drive-by trolls.

TXTigerman
Fighting big telco since 1999
join:2000-12-21
Beeville, TX

TXTigerman

Member

I've said it before....

...and I'll say it again.

Amateur radio is on the way out. You can either adapt to the changes, or you can bitch about nothing and die off.

BPL is the technology that will finally bring real broadband to everyone, which is both needed, and is wanted. That trumps a bunch of guys, who want to talk on a 2 meter repeater. Either live with the spectrum you have left, or don't. It doesn't matter to me either way.
moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

moonpuppy (banned)

Member

Re: I've said it before....

said by TXTigerman:
...and I'll say it again.

Amateur radio is on the way out. You can either adapt to the changes, or you can bitch about nothing and die off.
Sorry, I have been hearing that for over 20 years and it still has yet to happen. Until then, DEAL WITH US!
said by TXTigerman:

BPL is the technology that will finally bring real broadband to everyone, which is both needed, and is wanted.
Really?

Again, this tired old argument comes up again.

First off, it will be deployed to dense populated areas that are mostly already covered by either DSL or cable or both.

Second, rural areas do not provide the retunr of investment that urban areas do. If you are out on the farm waiting for BPL, better get comfortable, it's going to be a long wait.
said by TXTigerman:

That trumps a bunch of guys, who want to talk on a 2 meter repeater. Either live with the spectrum you have left, or don't. It doesn't matter to me either way.

How does this trump anyone? We live within the spectrum we have but BPL doesn't. Go do some research before you attack anything.

tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA

tenbase to TXTigerman

Member

to TXTigerman
Let's ignore your ridiculous claims for just one second and pretend that amateur radio ceases to exist as of the moment you read this.

Now what?

Oh, drat...90% of the spectrum in question is still being used by other services.

Is there a particular reason why this is so difficult for you to grasp?

And what do 2 meter repeaters have to do with anything? 2 meters = 144-148MHz = VHF.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer to TXTigerman

Member

to TXTigerman
said by TXTigerman:
...and I'll say it again.


Any facts to back up what you say, or just another drive-by troll?

kv5e
Ride Free
Premium Member
join:2001-12-04
Mesquite, TX

kv5e

Premium Member

Re: I've said it before....

At least this guy is registered.

Ask your Emergency Management Coordinator in Bee County what he thinks of Amateur Radio. He'll tell you "It butters my bread!"

Amateur Radio is a part of the Public Safety and Critical Infrastructure portion of the Wireless Telecommunications Bureau. The Feds think enough of it to have just kicked it a couple of notches in stature.

NTIA and FEMA are going to squash BPL with the FCC along with the ARRL. I would hold out for something more innovative and technically sound that is a responsible use of the Spectrum instead of this easy/cheesy way out where the Power Company kludges a poorly designed technology that the rest of the world has already placed in the trash heap. (except for Canada)

What are you and Space Ghost smoking down there in Bee County?

kv5e
moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

moonpuppy (banned) to rf_engineer

Member

to rf_engineer
said by rf_engineer:
said by TXTigerman:
...and I'll say it again.


Any facts to back up what you say, or just another drive-by troll?

He is only looking for a way to get his p0rn faster.

Balzer
join:2000-12-18
Tulsa, OK

Balzer to TXTigerman

Member

to TXTigerman
Please provided some facts to back up what you have said. We Hams will keep the spectrum that we have and keep fighting for it. You can bet you life on it. Trolls don't need broadband. And what does 2 meters (VHF) have to do with anything?

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer to TXTigerman

Member

to TXTigerman
BTW TXTigerman, I noticed this quote in your profile, "..to think that we are the only ones in the universe is very arrogant..." The Executive Director of the SETI League is an Amateur licensee ( »www.setileague.org/admin ··· paul.htm ) who built an array of dishes called the Very Small Array near Williamsport, PA that is probably one of the most cost effective projects to search for extra terrestial life yet ( »www.setileague.org/vsa/i ··· dex.html ) . While not entirely an Amateur project, such work is typical ingenuity you see in Amateur Radio. But I digress.

While the BPL we're talking about here doesn't threaten such work, should the next goofy technology that obilterates spectrum that would threaten such weak signal work be allowed so you could have fast file downloads ?

Balzer
join:2000-12-18
Tulsa, OK

Balzer to TXTigerman

Member

to TXTigerman
said by TXTigerman:
...and I'll say it again.

Amateur radio is on the way out. You can either adapt to the changes, or you can bitch about nothing and die off.

BPL is the technology that will finally bring real broadband to everyone, which is both needed, and is wanted. That trumps a bunch of guys, who want to talk on a 2 meter repeater. Either live with the spectrum you have left, or don't. It doesn't matter to me either way.

It doesn't matter to me if you get broadband either way!
Mike Weird
join:2004-01-31

Mike Weird

Member

Please vote

I see both side of this saga but just for curiosity sake
Raise your hand if your are against BPL and have access to highspeed or are already hooked up.
For the dial up dudes who will never get highspeed BPL is just a little bit of hope even if it never happens

mukraker
@69.158.x.x

mukraker

Anon

BPL will fail

Basically BPL is a solution looking for a problem.

Canada already has about three times the level of broadband internet use as the U.S. You can get either DSL or cable broadband in just about any Canadian town of any size.

The BPL advocates will say that this is the way they'll bring broadband to rural areas. Hogwash! Its just not economically feasible to provide wired internet service to rural areas.

Why isn't Amperion testing their system in a remote rural area? Instead they're testing in a city of 80,000 people that already has broadband access.

They're going to try to compete with existing broadband services and in the process render an entire chunk of radio frequency spectrum useless for anyone else. Also, I think they're going to fail miserably. I wouldn't buy shares in a BPL company.

BPL has already been tested in Europe and Japan. In fact new EMC regulations recently passed by the European Parliament will make BPL impossible. Why are Canada and the U.S. testing a failed technology?