Another test site for powerline broadband?Colorado mulls options ( old news - 09:34AM Monday Feb 23 2004) The Denver Post describes how small towns in Colorado may be ideal candidates for layering broadband signals over power lines (BPL). "We have high-end homes and lone eagles" says a manager for a local electric company. "A lot of our customers have a phone line and dial-up and thats the best they have". The article also lists communities that already have pilot programs of this technology in place, from Atlanta to Ossining, NY. See our past mentions of powerline broadband trials or proposals: /sitesearch/News/BPL.
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rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY | good I hope it works out for the people of Colorado. | |
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bistro777
Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do?
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-07
Englewood, CO
| Re: good I'm in the south Denver suburbs, and have friends "up in them thar hills" cryin' for a way to get off dial-up. Sometimes, though, I think I'd trade broadband for the beauty, tranquility and view from atop the Front Range...
It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that. - - G. H. Hardy | |
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MattE
Obama '08
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
 ·Corporate Colocation
| Oh n0s! Now what will we do when we have an emergency?
The ski lifts won't function, the snow will stop falling, avalanches will occur more often and no one but the s00per-D-d00per amateur radio hobbiest will be able to save the day.
Damn the kryptonite that is BPL!
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Edwards in 2004 | |
| | Zunger
join:2003-08-24
Gans, OK
| Re: Oh n0s! I feel for them, im on the same connection as they are. So NeuralRelay, how about you get rid of your broadband and connect at 26.4k, see how much you like it. See how long it takes to download a 10, 20, 50, and 300mb file and then...only then, will you be welcome to this world.
fuxor the emergency, broadband is more important! | |
| | | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| Re: Oh n0s! "fuxor the emergency, broadband is more important!"
Sounds like a terrorist! Maybe the terrorists are the ones pushing this junk in the USA, as it sure will wreck the Homeland Security program on HF. Besides there are other ways to get broadband. Do you have cable TV? I bet they have something for you there. How about DSL? I'm getting sick and tired of you bitheads always saying "I want this, I want that! Wa Wa " get the baby rattler. | |
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SuperJudge
Magus
Premium
join:2002-11-14
Albany, GA
clubs: | Good Luck - CO You'll need it, everybody seems to be having bad luck with this.
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Updated My Journal | |
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HotRodFoto
Premium
join:2003-04-19
Denver, CO |  Re: Good Luck - CO
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Good Luck - CO said by HotRodFoto  :
If anything it WOULD work here...I know excel is also considering it. Colorado has a LOT of small towns in the mountains that are isolated, where no one will service.
Small isolated towns are probably the worse suited for BPL due to its architecture. BPL has less of a range than DSL and cable. It requires repeaters every 200m or so, each of which are in the $4k to $5k range. Everyone seems to be under the impression that BPL is "plug and play" on the utility side, but it's far from that. It's not a long haul technology, so all of the traffic needs to be backhauled via telco facilities or fiber strung between feedpoints. I won't go into the numerous radio spectrum interference issues as they've been beaten to death on BBR, but it's a major obstacle. The article refers to BPL as new technology, but the fact is they've been trying to get it to work without ill effects for five or six years.
The business model for BPL in rural areas is very questionable. Chances are if you don't have DSL or cable, you'll never see BPL. Wireless is actually much better suited for covering an area like you're describing and is much more scalable and proven. | |
| | | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| "Colorado has a LOT of small towns in the mountains that are isolated, where no one will service."
That's just it, no one will service those areas because it is not financially feasable to do so. No company is going to foot the bill for repeaters, equipment etc., needed to reach small customer bases. It just doesn't make sense financially. However it does make sense to target the more populated communities like Denver/Boulder areas. Just in case, I have my "normal spectrums" of the noise floor from 3Mhz through 1.2Ghz recorded of the front range area here, and will gladly compare to any areas that may become infected with this idiotic technology. If these noise floor measurements show the slightest increase in the already high noise floor, prompt complaints will be filed. This with NIST traceable equipment and high operator credentials. | |
| Lepriapus
join:2002-02-01
Atlanta, GA | Rates dropping! If this were to happen, would it fall under Utilities regulations, there by keeping the price reasonable, and does anyone have a theoretical top speed? | |
| | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Rates dropping! said by Lepriapus :
If this were to happen, would it fall under Utilities regulations, there by keeping the price reasonable, and does anyone have a theoretical top speed?
Rates will NOT go down.
While the basic delivery of electricity is regulated, not the extra services. Same with telco's. The dial tone is regulated but not DSL, Caller ID, Call Waiting, etc. Plus, there is nothing there anyhow so where is the incentive to keep rates down? | |
| | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| "If this were to happen, would it fall under Utilities regulations, there by keeping the price reasonable, and does anyone have a theoretical top speed?"
I'm sorry to inform you that once this technology is deployed, and they find out what a dog it is, you the customers of the power co's will pay for it by price increases, extra taxes etc. The companies will need to pay for the cost of all the equipment and manpower required to install BPL, and then after it is proved to be a big downfall, to repay the investors first. Where do you think that money will come from? From the customer base of course.
The theoretical top speed is around 1.5Mbit/s with only minimal user load. As the userload increases and things like atmospheric conditions, solar disturbances, unintentional ingress from licensed services in the same spectrum, skipzone signal strength increases, to name a few will cause it to be reduced to a crawl - if you're still connected at all. All these things have still to be studied, some of which may take years to demonstrate properly, but they are pushing it on the ill-informed as fast as possible. BPL is bad technology - period, and the companies responsible are just trying to get their wasted developement money back from from the huge un-knowing customer base the power co's have.. | |
| | | markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO | Re: Rates dropping! Wow, I never new someone could post so much rubbish. Good job on such a feat!
solar flares. hehe good stuff | |
| | | | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| Re: Rates dropping! "I never new someone could post so much rubbish"
Oh well glad you like it. I will fight for my licensed right to use the HF bands and no garbage failed technology will take it away from me without a fight. I personally have thousands of dollars in collection of radio equipment through my many years in radio along with extensive knowledge of the behavior of the HF spectrum. If you don't like that then you need to retake physics 101 because any engineer with half a brain knows that you can't put a wideband RF signal on an open wire and expect it to stay on the wire - IT WILL RADIATE! Or did you go to school? | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| said by markopoleo :
Wow, I never new someone could post so much rubbish. Good job on such a feat!
solar flares. hehe good stuff
Markopoleo, I haven't seen you contribute much value to the BPL debate. Here's the last post you made regarding BPL:
Interference is not a issue, if it was you would see %90 of the current electronics, and tech gadgets pulled off the shelves as well. Heck remove every microwave's from every home why don't you.
Yes it is the same thing.
This is so totally incoherent and nonsensical, I'm not sure where to begin. 90% of the current electronics don't use miles of unshielded conductors carrying RF frequencies from 1 to 80 Mhz. Smells like rubbish to me. Oh, and BTW, you never responded to anyone that made counterpoints to this post.
W2CO has posted more information than most here. Perhaps you should argue with his points rather than attacking him, and respond to people who debunk your posts. | |
| IIdeathboyII
join:2003-07-26
Nicholasville, KY | GOD! Just hurry up... Ok, BPL seems to have no "real" problems if its being tested in "real" place. Just go ahead and start production. k thnx
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_Dont Steal...The Government hates competition_ | |
| gsellers
join:2004-02-23
Evergreen, CO
|  We already have wireless...
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| | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| Re: We already have wireless... "lets plug the powerline directly into your expensive new pc, so when lightning hits the line it for sure zaps the heck out of it...."
Very good point. As a matter of fact, most UPS equipment with EMI filtering built in (most have this) will not work with BPL. You would have to run with no EMI/UPS/surge protection because it will block the BPL signal. | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| Re: We already have wireless... said by w2co :
"lets plug the powerline directly into your expensive new pc, so when lightning hits the line it for sure zaps the heck out of it...."
Very good point. As a matter of fact, most UPS equipment with EMI filtering built in (most have this) will not work with BPL. You would have to run with no EMI/UPS/surge protection because it will block the BPL signal.
And how is this different from your cable modem which hooks to cable on the same poles as powerlines and has wire going from the modem to your NIC?
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
| | | | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| Re: We already have wireless... Well most cable systems have surge protectors along the poles that absorb any surges to ground before they reach the cable box in your home. There are strict guidelines the cable companies adhere to in order to meet the rules requirements, most importantly they keep their wideband signal shielded with coax cable and do maintenance regularly and respond to interference complaints stat. Their system is completely isolated from the ac power lines except for powering their inline amplifiers. Now with BPL, all they are going to do is place a two way bypass on the transformer that will pass both ways any rf signal above around 500Khz or so, and lightning in Colorado is fierce at times as any Coloradoan knows, the bypass devices will certainly fail, but which way will they fail (short or open) no one knows yet. The companies state very little about these bypass devices and I know they have not tested them very much. By doing this (placing bypass devices) it also will enable every part 15 device in use today to also become wide area radiators, this will blow away the "point source" factor in part 15 rules that has helped so often in the past in fixing interference complaints. Anyway you look at this technology, it is just a bad idea. | |
| 
http04
@NoDak.edu
| Sources? w2co or rf_engineer, I am a student who is looking into the pros and cons of BPL. I am able to find plenty of pros for it, but not too many down sides, besides the interference problem. Is there a web site where you got your info, or just knowledge you have?
Thanks | |
| | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| Re: Sources? "I am able to find plenty of pros for it, but not too many down sides"
Hi - Well you can go the www.arrl.org website, do a
"search site" for BPL. There they have plenty of info on the real effects of BPL to the radio spectrum. There are videos that show the effects up close and personal, among lots of other facts and data. Data - that's what is always lacking from the rosy picture these companies paint. There also are videos from other countries who have already tested this technology and either banned it altogether or have put it on hold for interference concerns. You know they (the companies) always say how good it is but have no data for testing the bad part (interference potential), or do they ever hardly mention it. The fact is the HF spectrum 1-30Mhz is very unique in it's capabilities of reliable communications to anywhere in the world at any given time of day. The MUF varies constantly and communications of thousands of miles are possible with only a few watts of power at or below the MUF at any given time. This has been being used by various licensed groups for decades, since the beginning of radio, and to ruin this spectrum with meaningless hash from a wideband, wide area radiating system would be a slap in the face to Nature itself.
If you really think about it, this phenomenon does not happen in any other part of the natural spectrum. | |
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