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story category 'Great Broadband Hope'
Powell visits North Carolina BPL trial
(old news - 02:33PM Monday Mar 08 2004)
tags: fcc · BPL
FCC chairman Michael Powell paid a visit to a broadband over power line (BPL) trial location Friday in rural North Carolina. The trial, developed by Progress Energy, Earthlink, and Amperion inc., aims to wire some 500 homes with BPL technology. -

Powell, who is eager to see BPL become a third viable broadband competitor, witnessed a 2.5Mbps down/1.3Mbps up trial of the technology according to Tech Web. According to the article, Amperion hardware pumps 18 to 24Mbps worth of bandwidth across medium-voltage power lines. They then scatter the neighborhood with Wi-Fi hotspots to deliver the connectivity to some 500 (eventual) end users.

As we previously mentioned, Amperion has also helped wire the Canadian city of Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario with BPL. Amperion and Progress Energy have also been seemingly more receptive to interference concerns than other vendors and utilities (many of whom deny the potential threat altogether).

Powell recently called the technology the "great broadband hope for a good part of rural America."

Related:
  1. Hams Say Martin Misrepresenting BPL
  2. Hams Want FCC To Actually Study BPL Before Praising It
  3. Hams Demand FCC BPL Test Data
  4. FCC Ignoring BPL Interference?
  5. The FCC's Split Personality
  6. FCC, Hams Spar Over Powerline Broadband
  7. Court Agrees with ARRL in FCC BPL Issue
  8. Broadband Over Powerline (BPL) Stumbles
Forums » 'Great Broadband Hope'
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FLECOM
Bay Networks Freak
Premium
join:2003-03-03
Miami, FL

2.5/1.3??!

uhh... i want 1.3mbits of upload plz...

i woulder what the hams ended up doing? they are still protesting this no?

cool how they use wifi to give people access, but i forsee some issues there with security of data and unauthorized access... hrmm, free BPL? hehe
--
BellSouth sucks

NewLife
Just Keep Swimming, Just Keep Swimming

join:2001-07-31
Calhoun, GA

Re: 2.5/1.3??!

Hell yeah. Thats what I am talking about. 2.5 down may not be quite as fast as I'd like but that 1.3 upload is sweet. Hamradios, we don't need no stinking ham radios what we need is bandwidth baby.

kfolsom
Top of the foodchain.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
clubs:
·Verizon west (ex G..

Re: 2.5/1.3??!

said by NewLife See Profile:
Hell yeah. Thats what I am talking about. 2.5 down may not be quite as fast as I'd like but that 1.3 upload is sweet. Hamradios, we don't need no stinking ham radios what we need is bandwidth baby.

Great. Just what we need... Another ham hater.

Just try to complete your upload when the neighborhood ham starts operating, or CBer, or any transmission within the passband of BPL. Then you'll be on terminal hold with your ISP/utility company to complain; after all that, you still will have no resolution, nor will you have any upload(nor download, for that matter). Your ISP/utility will not be able to stop the RF in your neighborhood from happening. In fact, if your operations cause interference to us, your pipe will be choked or taken down altogether.

Can't we just stop hating and baiting the hams?
--
I once accidentally spilled spot remover on my dog and he disappeared. You know what I hate? Indian Givers... No, I take that back. »www.folsomtech.com

technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA

Re: 2.5/1.3??!

I have nothing against HAM, it's actually tasty for christmas, and other seasonal dinners.

kfolsom
Top of the foodchain.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
clubs:
·Verizon west (ex G..

Re: 2.5/1.3??!

said by technick See Profile:
I have nothing against HAM, it's actually tasty for christmas, and other seasonal dinners.

I eat ham at all holiday dinners with my family. I wonder if that makes me a cannibal in some way?

I really don't mean to "Rodney King" all over the place. This BPL/radio people war is just going too far. Thanks for lightening the forum a little bit...:D
--
I once accidentally spilled spot remover on my dog and he disappeared. You know what I hate? Indian Givers... No, I take that back. »www.folsomtech.com

Vamp
5c077
Premium
join:2003-01-28
MD
·Verizon FIOS

said by kfolsom See Profile:
said by NewLife See Profile:
Hell yeah. Thats what I am talking about. 2.5 down may not be quite as fast as I'd like but that 1.3 upload is sweet. Hamradios, we don't need no stinking ham radios what we need is bandwidth baby.

Great. Just what we need... Another ham hater.

Just try to complete your upload when the neighborhood ham starts operating, or CBer, or any transmission within the passband of BPL. Then you'll be on terminal hold with your ISP/utility company to complain; after all that, you still will have no resolution, nor will you have any upload(nor download, for that matter). Your ISP/utility will not be able to stop the RF in your neighborhood from happening. In fact, if your operations cause interference to us, your pipe will be choked or taken down altogether.

Can't we just stop hating and baiting the hams?

No, ham radio is the past, computers are the future, get over it!! :P
--
:: My current desktop ::

kv5e
Ride Free
Premium
join:2001-12-04
Mesquite, TX

Re: 2.5/1.3??!

Digital technology and computers are the rage in ham radio!

Mesh networking on 802.11x under Part 97 rules....Wireless mobile ethernet on 1.2 GHz with DStar, Perceptually coded voice with data interleaved with soft panel interfacing to you PDA or laptop with DStar, ad infinitum.

Yes, there is still the SSB/Voice only Hams, but a lot of new blood is infusing the hobby with programming, hardware, and integration skills.

kv5e

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

said by kfolsom See Profile:
Can't we just stop hating and baiting the hams?
I AGREE. every one of these BPL stories after the first few posts becomes a ham/antiham squabble.
-
FWIW i think these speeds were obtained under VERY OPTIMAL CONDITIONS. under real world use you'd probably see levels of service equivelent to charters bronze package(512/128)
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth

Transmaster
Onward Through The Fog

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

No you won't hear from us here but you will hear from us online. Remember you are a type 15 device so while you will interfere with us, type 15 rules means if we and other
service which use these frequency are harmed you are shut down. In the mean time if any of the stake holders on these
frequencies being type 96 devices can cream, and will cream
your shoot'm dead game and there is nothing you can do about it. Well fellow Hamradio operators do you think this
crap technology will interfer with us if we switch to FM on HF bands?
--
"Remember when hacking a loogy it comes not so much from the lungs but from the soul."

kfolsom
Top of the foodchain.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
clubs:
·Verizon west (ex G..

Re: 2.5/1.3??!

said by Transmaster See Profile:
Well fellow Hamradio operators do you think this
crap technology will interfer with us if we switch to FM on HF bands?

Nope... We can also go digital. Digital SSB is a great new technique that we hams have adopted recently.
--
I once accidentally spilled spot remover on my dog and he disappeared. You know what I hate? Indian Givers... No, I take that back. »www.folsomtech.com

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online

said by Transmaster See Profile:
No you won't hear from us here but you will hear from us online. Remember you are a type 15 device so while you will interfere with us, type 15 rules means if we and other
service which use these frequency are harmed you are shut down. In the mean time if any of the stake holders on these
frequencies being type 96 devices can cream, and will cream
your shoot'm dead game and there is nothing you can do about it. Well fellow Hamradio operators do you think this
crap technology will interfer with us if we switch to FM on HF bands?

FM would probably work but the bandwidth waste would be terrible. I do not recall what the absolute minimum NBFM deviation for intelligible audio would be but I think 2.5kHz would be about right. So double that and add another one or two kHz for buffer and we are up to around 7kHz for one voice channel (now that I think of it, i think the minimum "channel" separation on newer NBFM equipment is 6.25kHz). Plus the heterodynes would be a pain as well.

OTOH, if you reside in a BPL infested area, why not switch to RTTY or PSK31 and run a few 10 minute continuous data transmissions with other friendly hams. Perfectly legal.

kfolsom
Top of the foodchain.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
clubs:
·Verizon west (ex G..

Re: 2.5/1.3??!

said by n2jtx See Profile:
OTOH, if you reside in a BPL infested area, why not switch to RTTY or PSK31 and run a few 10 minute continuous data transmissions with other friendly hams. Perfectly legal.

The part that I think is so germain to this view of fighting BPL (on our own terms) is that we don't even have to do anything out of the ordinary... Just operate as normal and let physics take over.

But your way would work, too...;)
--
I once accidentally spilled spot remover on my dog and he disappeared. You know what I hate? Indian Givers... No, I take that back. »www.folsomtech.com
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

said by NewLife See Profile:
Hell yeah. Thats what I am talking about. 2.5 down may not be quite as fast as I'd like but that 1.3 upload is sweet. Hamradios, we don't need no stinking ham radios what we need is bandwidth baby.

Still not getting your porn fast enough?

Face it. If those numbers are real, then how long before they cut that back to save money on bandwidth? Comcast is already kicking off people with invisible caps as is Rogers and other ISP's. How long before BPL does the same thing?
w2co

join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO

I'm sorry to inform you that the speed posted was with minimal users connected to the system at that time. They wanted it to look it's very best for the chairman's visit. You can bet it will drop harshly when the real user load gets connected to the node. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes down to 128K or less with the userloads they are projecting. Don't forget all those unlicensed CBer's out there who operate with bookoo power and are mobile too. There are many more CBers per square mile, I think, then the hams who operate legally. Now when anyone with 1KW keys up within 5 or 10 blocks of your house, your connection speed will drop dramatically if not drop altogether. And don't forget - the hams do this legally! The FCC rules for hams say that the minimum power should be run for reliable communications. With BPL in place we will need at least 1KW all the time to reach even the west coast. And don't forget part 15 rules say that you are a part 15 device and may not cause any interference to licensed services. Also any interference to BPL caused by a licensed service is just too bad! Beware

kfolsom
Top of the foodchain.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
clubs:
·Verizon west (ex G..

said by FLECOM See Profile:

i woulder what the hams ended up doing? they are still protesting this no?

cool how they use wifi to give people access, but i forsee some issues there with security of data and unauthorized access... hrmm, free BPL? hehe

We hams are still here, but most of us have stopped protesting on this forum. We are, for the most part, waiting for it to come to our neighborhoods, operating as normal and killing it naturally, at which time (when BPL customers bail out because of RFI), utilities that offer it will have to discontinue offers... Then they will raise rates to astronomical levels to pay their backers and investors.

Yes, the Wi-Fi portion of the tech is cool.

The battle continues.
--
I once accidentally spilled spot remover on my dog and he disappeared. You know what I hate? Indian Givers... No, I take that back. »www.folsomtech.com
Beaker74

join:2003-11-21
Saint Louis, MO

Re: 2.5/1.3??!

I posted about this stupid war last BPL story. Until there's a meaningful service area in this country. I'll withold my judgement on whether BPL can work or not.

People, people, people. Just monitor how the trials are going. I'm sure if Radio people get interference, the country is going to hear about it.

And people who want BPL? If BPL is viable and non-interfering, then more power to you. If not, meh, nice try, go back to the drawing board. I have faith there will be a third alternative to Broadband soon, whether by BPL or wireless, or whatever.
w2co

join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO

Who cares if they use wifi to access the last .25mile. It really doesn't matter when you're thinking about security. For that matter anyone sending secure info on a secure line will eventually end up on one of the BPL radiating wires somewhere. These wires will radiate the signal anywhere from a few tens of miles to thousands of miles depending on band conditions. It's going to be a hackers dream.

pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:

2.5/1.3M !!!

The upload speed is faster than most DSL and Cable providers

Any HAM interference?
--
The smarter computers get, the more faith I put into Newton's 3rd law.
Alphy

join:2001-12-31
Troy, MI

Re: 2.5/1.3M !!!

Again, why do people really need 1.3mbit upload. I've uploaded over 3GB of pictures from my trip to Paris and 300Kbit upload worked just fine.

hopeflicker
They all belong in the trash
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

Re: 2.5/1.3M !!!

Maybe people like to upload things other than picture files. Some people are heavily into trading music, and yes, even legitimate music and video files. Just out of curiosity, how long did it take to upload that 3 Gigs of pictures?
lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
Good question, I remember people saying why would we ever need more than 640K of memory. I would venture to say those 300Kb pictures will be 3Mb or larger as the technology advances in five or ten years.

pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:

Re: 2.5/1.3M !!!

said by lesopp See Profile:
Good question, I remember people saying why would we ever need more than 640K of memory.

Bill Gates said that
--
The smarter computers get, the more faith I put into Newton's 3rd law.

technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA
The images from my digital camera are 3-5 megs a piece already

Dirk Daring

join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA
At Xmas and many other times we share our webcam with out of town family. The 256 upload we have with our cable provider is enough for 2 people to view our webcam without a lot of lag. Now throw in voice...

pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:

Video webcams do not have that good of a quality at 128k or 256k.
A 1.3Mb/s connection could transmit quality real-time video to someone. You cannot transmit real-time streaming video at 1Mb/s using a 256k connection. It is impossible.

There are a lot of different applications for a high speed connection with a fat upload pipe.
--
The smarter computers get, the more faith I put into Newton's 3rd law.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2.5/1.3M !!!

said by pcscdma See Profile:
Video webcams do not have that good of a quality at 128k or 256k.
A 1.3Mb/s connection could transmit quality real-time video to someone. You cannot transmit real-time streaming video at 1Mb/s using a 256k connection. It is impossible.

There are a lot of different applications for a high speed connection with a fat upload pipe.

Video conferencing is VERY NICE with just a megabit of upload. i used to do VC on my works T3 with relatives that have Cablevisions OOL product(theirs is 1mbit up) and it was very nice before they instituted their capping BS. Upload speed is really the key to doing most of the enjoyable things online but unfortunately upload bandwidth is VERY EXPENSIVE(or so the providers have brainwashed us to think)
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth

NewLife
Just Keep Swimming, Just Keep Swimming

join:2001-07-31
Calhoun, GA

said by Alphy See Profile:
Again, why do people really need 1.3mbit upload.

Upload a complete website with both Raw and optimized image files, video, flash and all like that and lets see how quick that upload becomes needed. Especially if you have 3 or four vids to upload at 6 or 7 megs apiece.
--
Help Find A Cure! Join Team Helix!
AMD 2400 XP/512 PC2700 RAM/128 MEG ASUS 9280TS Video/80 GB HDD/Audigy

Zman0001
Premium
join:2003-11-09
Whitewater, WI
clubs:

Regardless of that.. many homes are becoming completely networked. My apartment at school alone is going to have 5 computers, an Xbox, PS2(Possibly 2), and a GameCube all hooked up through one cable connection on a wireless router. I'm thinking if there are 4 people on each of their computers doing something at the same time, and someone trying to use Xbox Live, we're gunna have problems...

My parents house has a wireless setup as well, with me on my laptop and my brother and his two computers, plus my dad. (Mom, hates computers.. can't blame her.. ) My brother likes to do web casting of his created music, which also tends to take up bandwidth, pissing everyone else off.

1.5M would definitely help out I think

Although I think my case is a little rare, but for many college kids that's just life..

Z

CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

Where is the ROI?

RF interference is really a false issue that has cluttered this debate for far too long. ROI should be focus for investors and BPL has got none even if you are willing to risk damaging the RF environment.

Do you feel at loss already if we don't repeat the harmful interference debate? Would it not be more useful to focus discussion on ROI rather than hams once again this time?
Please tell me why do you think there is an ROI on BPL!!!
davebenham

join:2002-01-31
Round Lake, IL


edit:
March 8th, @03:50PM

Re: Where is the ROI?

It's not really a false issue, just one you are willing/choosing to ignore because it doesn't affect you.

Even if you aren't a HAM, it does affect you. When a BPL user lives next door to HAM operator, both will suffer.

Interference is a two way street.

However, I think you are correct questioning the ROI. The obvious lack of ROI will eventually kill BPL.

CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

Re: Where is the ROI?

We have been discussing harmful interference for just about one year now and this argument simply does not weigh enough to an investor simply concerned with profit (most unfortunately many would agree). We have had an NOI, a NRPM and now a BPL Public Relations blitz since with all these people that think that BPL is real since FCC thinks it is. ROI is the area where BPL is the most vulnerable and focus on ROI is probably the best way to protect our RF environment. I am only hoping that potential investors will deeply scrutinize the ROI aspect and they will soon realize that there is none. BPL can only cater to greedy and stupid investors that the Public Relations media blitz funded by the BPL industry are now catering to. Investors are simply blindsighted on these interference discussions from the real issue of ROI that has never been really discussed.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

Re: Where is the ROI?

Don't take this the wrong way, it's not intended as a flame, but do you have an agenda? You raise some valid points, but your zeal strikes me as being fueled by a greater motivator than just a concerned investor?

90 Percent of the stuff we see in broadband infrastructure and content (frame per second TV) has no ROI. What about Fiber? EvDO?

CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

Re: Where is the ROI?

In regards to my concerned investor agenda, how about not repeating more Enrons and ensuring that the limited amount of money available to the tech sector nowdays does not get squandered on doomed initiatives for reasons as simple as lack of ROI. Also protecting our RF environment certainly seems to be a worthy cause and I regret that the hams, our tree huggers, have not been able to win the battle that they have waged on very noble and sound terms.

There certainly seems to be a large media effort trying to raise more money from new investors on this deployment. I will argue that investors need to be much better educated on ROI. I personally do not see any and perhaps I am wrong. If BBR thinks there is an ROI, then please cover the story as such.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2.5/1.3M !!!

said by pcscdma See Profile:
The upload speed is faster than most DSL and Cable providers
And if you think any provider offering it isnt going to cap that upload you are in a dream world. this probably would only be deployed in areas that have no other broadband options and realworld speeds would be better than dialup 56k modems but not fast enough to compete with DSL or cable.
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth

Dan
Professor Lava Hot
Premium
join:2002-12-17
{runtime_%#}
·Rogers Hi-Speed

WHOA! Thank god its coming to Canada too!

Shite! With an upload like that I would pay 120 a month! I could host my cs server at home instead of with a company! D D D DAMN!

Having an upload like this would result in an ultra low pinging network in the area its setup. Damn.


CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

Re: WHOA! Thank god its coming to Canada too!

I beg to differ. Have you looked into the Return On Investment? Is it really better in Ontario? Would you know anyone investing and could you explain why they would?
davebenham

join:2002-01-31
Round Lake, IL

BPL should be tested first

Most HAM operators like myself are concerned about BPL because I don't think people realize the harm it can potentially pose to the future of shortwave radio. And don't think shortwave radio consists of just a bunch of HAM operators. Other services operated in the HF spectrum include atomic time broadcasts, commercial radio stations, remote control devices, cordless phones, CB radio, and countless number of other licensed operators that use the space for private and emergency communications.

Also, keep in mind, that when disasters strike and power goes out, it is often HF frequencies that are used to establish emergency communications. All those fancy cell phones, pagers, internet connections tend to stop working when the power goes out.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has voiced concerns about BPL interference causing great difficulty in it's ability to establish emergency communications in the HF bands. "FEMA said there's no current alternative to HF in terms of meeting national security and emergency preparedness requirements at the national, state and local levels"

Bottom line, I don't think there is any reason to rush into it. Besides, we're talking providing broadband in rural areas if I'm not mistaken. In a economy where DSL providers dropped like flies just trying to get broadband to the masses in urban areas, I highly doubt investors will be lining up to outfit sparsely populated rural areas of our country with broadband.

Think, all those Comcast complaints you see in these forums. Add your local electric company to the mix.

Dave Benham - WT9C

jtudor
Xm 60's On 6 Freak
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-07
Morganton, NC
·AT&T Southeast

Re: BPL should be tested first

said by davebenham See Profile:
BPL Should be tested first
Umm isn't that exactly what they are doing now?
--
Best of luck

"Do, or Do not, there is no try!" Yoda
davebenham

join:2002-01-31
Round Lake, IL

Re: BPL should be tested first

Tested in _all_ respects. I doubt these trials will include any attempt to see if BPL services can coexist and play nice with others.

AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO

Re: BPL should be tested first

Won't the HAM operators in the area notice? (and thus be "tested") Or are you saying that the study should include HAM radios in an artificial environment first?
--
System protected by Impregnable Ignorance (TM)

jtudor
Xm 60's On 6 Freak
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-07
Morganton, NC
·AT&T Southeast

Re: BPL should be tested first

said by AthlGrond See Profile:
Or are you saying that the study should include HAM radios in an artificial environment first?
An artificial environment is OK for initial testing, but there needs to be full testing in the real world too before full deployment. There are way too many variables involved in the real world that cannot be properly simulated in a lab to rely on that testing only.
--
Best of luck

"Do, or Do not, there is no try!" Yoda

CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

Where is the ROI?

Can someone tell me where is the ROI on this technology?

And will it help the USA catch up on the broadband deployment race?

jtudor
Xm 60's On 6 Freak
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-07
Morganton, NC
·AT&T Southeast

Re: Where is the ROI?

said by CheeseWare See Profile:
Can someone tell me where is the ROI on this technology?

Perhaps you might elaborate on why you say there is no ROI?

If there is no ROI here, then it is the fault of the power companies who implement it, for investing too much in infrastructure and failing to charge customers enough to pay for the investment, and to eventually make a profit, even if it is small.

Would it help the USA catch up with the rest or the world? If it is offered by enough power companies, and priced competitively, then yes I think it would. In fact I don't see how it could fail to help.
--
Best of luck

"Do, or Do not, there is no try!" Yoda

CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

Re: Where is the ROI?

BPL does not help the USA to catch up on broadband deployment as it distracts from more sound technology solutions. It also send a signal of confusion to investors that will delay their commitments until the confusion has been resolved. Many other countries have concluded that BPL was not worth the pain and have moved onto more sound solutions. Even if this thing had no interference problems, it still does not offer a compelling advantage, 10x better ROI than existing and proven technologies.

MattE
Obama '08
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation

said by CheeseWare See Profile:
Can someone tell me where is the ROI on this technology?

And will it help the USA catch up on the broadband deployment race?

Instead of repeating yourself, can you explain why there isn't any ROI for this technology?

I would be willing to wager much smarter people than you have looked at the money side of this and determined there is money to be made somewhere.
CableConvert
Premium
join:2003-12-05
Atlanta, GA

Well Tested

I can say with a good bit of certainty that this was well tested. I was one of the ELNK techs trained to support this technology...and as I remember, the way they have developed the technology, there is very little interference. There also was LOTS of consideration given to HAM operators. FYI, we were told you could get as much as 3MB d/l AND u/l on a pretty regular basis when its all up and running. Its also not capped (hows that if you work nights and nobody else is home days)

CheeseWare
Premium
join:2003-04-24
Burnaby, BC

Re: Where is the ROI?

The onus is normally on the newcomer technology to make the good ROI claim. But since you ask about the "no ROI" claim, here they are:

1) Steadily decreasing commodity equipment cost of fiber, DSL, cable gear, and wireless LAN (&ISM). Competing multiVendor solutions are mature and readily available and being deployed worldwide. Associated deployment skills are commodity skills commonly taught in your community colleges nowdays.

2) Deploying BPL repeaters required expensive truck rolls and trades people trained for handling high voltage equipment. Number of repeaters very high for rural deployment. Competing and mature solutions are already in place where less repeaters are needed. Their deployment is only awaiting sizeable markets and investments. Unless there is a better technology that guarantees 10x the known ROI. There is no indication that it is the case with BPL.

3) Significant liability issues in the event of malfunctions (operating staff&subscriber), power service impact, and harmful interference

4) No bandwidth roadmap on both access and home segment: 640K memory was not enough...

5) Several critical unknowns on BPL technology: subscriber churn rate, scaling up number of subscribers per line, cost of troubleshooting subscribers, cost of maintenance of line (MOL), threat of BPL shutdown (rf. many other countries) particularly high if democrats get in and/or Powell leaves office, NRPM outstanding gotchas on measurements, cost of deploying/commissioning BPL repeaters on very old powerlines, cost of implementing filters/notches once equipment deployed, cost of migration and upgrades, cost of End Of Life (EOL), etc...

6) AC outlets are not easily reached from the last neighborhood transformer onward (Current Technology solution); throughput is highly subject to ambient neighborhood electrical wiring and load on that wiring; significant costs on deploying the access point and getting service coverage on the Ambient wireless LAN solution.

BPL deployment financials have never been disclosed and should be carefully scrutinized by anyone considering investing their hard earnt $ in BPL. Due diligence only makes sense when $40 montlhy rates are posted; does this cost reflect the true cost of providing service - or simply a figure to draw interest?

May I ask what is your ROI claim, i.e. how is BPL ROI 10x better than existing technologies ROI? Do you simply rely on the "experts" that must know better? Do you not have a problem with this if you are a BPL investor after Enron and likes? You are most welcome to challenge my own deployment credentials. But you may find better ROI elsewhere too.
forrestin
Premium
join:2004-02-07
Clinton, IN
·HughesNet Satellit..

What about wireless conflicts

What freq will this run at? If it is in the Mhz range then you will have issues with cordless phones, wireless equipment, etc. I run a wireless LAN at home. What does this mean for the use that has a wi-fi LAN? Are they forced to go wired in order to get the BPL?

Microhard

join:2001-08-03
Huntington Beach, CA


edit:
March 8th, @10:04PM

I just don't get it...

Ok let me get this straight, we have a solution that people believe it is a simple as sticking something in the power socket and waaalaaahhh you are on the Internet. So most homes have a phone line, yet they are all not ready for DSL, and you have to have equipment, you have to buy or someone has to give out. Now there has to be equipment on the ISP end you have to purchase....right? Ok now with all this into consideration, you already have many homes that have broadband available to them. And the VAST majority of the people on the net still in 2004 are still....drum roll please....ON DIAL UP! So, who cares if they roll this new technology out, terrible business plan what about supply and demand....where is the demand? You know they are not going to do this for rural customers, this is only going to be in high density areas where there might be a profit margin available. Why are we not concentrating on existing technology?

Sure this is something everyone on this forum would love, hate to tell you that we are in the minority, our world is still very non-techy. Until the killer app comes to the Internet and the prices drop drastically, people getting broadband in the masses is still not going to happen.

rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

Broadband Fool's Gold

BPL is a system that is being tested to provide broadband Internet service via powerlines. The system uses frequencies that will radiate into the air and cause interference to several licensed services including Amateur Radio. The frequencies BPL uses in general is 1 to 80 Mhz (megahertz). This particular band of frequencies are known as HF (which is actually 1 – 30 Mhz). This part of the radio spectrum has very special properties not found elsewhere. With this band, one can communicate around the world with very minute power levels. This is due to the fact that radio waves in this band can bounce off the ionosphere multiple times to get to the destination. Other portions of the radio spectrum are essentially line-of-sight. This means that the signals cannot bend or bounce off the ionosphere, but they can only propagate like light – in a straight line.

The medium of BPL (the powerline cable), unlike any other broadband medium (copper twisted pair, fiber, coaxial cable), is inherently unsuited for carrying the frequencies BPL uses. Power lines, copper twisted pair, and coaxial cable all act like natural low pass filters, meaning higher frequencies are attenuated more than lower frequencies when attempting to transmit them through the medium. The exact slope of the graph of attenuation depends on the specific construction of the material, but in general, twisted pair is suitable up to 100 Mhz and coaxial cable can go up to about 3 Ghz. Again, these are very general figures and determining the suitability for any application depends on other factors. Power lines would be suitable for up to perhaps 20 Khz, maybe 350 kHz at a stretch, with caveats. The exact figure is unimportant for this discussion, but note that this is kilohertz, not megahertz or gigahertz. These are essentially audio frequencies, and equate to a data rate in the neighborhood of ISDN.

The other property of the medium chosen for BPL is its radiating capability. Again, unlike all other broadband mediums, power lines are excellent radiators of the frequencies BPL uses. Copper twisted pair, coaxial cable, and fiber are all inherently non-radiating mediums. It should be noted that twisted pair and coaxial cable do actually radiate to some extent, but in proportion to the amplitude of the signal they are carrying, it is minuscule. It’s ironic that an antenna in use by some Amateurs actually is very close in construction and visual appearance to typical power lines.

BPL has been tested and deployed on a limited basis in other countries and was essentially rejected due to interference issues. BPL vendors may claim “new technology” and advances have now made it possible, but the fact is they can’t change the laws of physics. High speed data must occupy a certain amount of “bandwidth” and power lines which were designed to operate at 60Hz will radiate RF that is applied to them. Only changing power line construction (i.e. coaxial cable) would eliminate this radiation. BPL proponents reject this as being too costly, but that would be the cost to make this a real viable technology.

Users of the affected radio spectrum cannot be relocated, or at least not economically or in a timely manner. It's likely it would be cheaper for the government to subsidize cable and DSL deployment. Plus, all of the services that use HF bands require the characteristics that only HF bands exhibit. There would also be huge international treaty implications with any relocation. Changes in international communications treaties are measured in decades, not months or even years. Relocating government and military services alone would take years as the FCC would have to structure a migration plan. Chances are it would be ten years before this could be completed and it’s likely that power companies will have run fiber to the home or DSL and cable will finally be ubiquitous. Perhaps the largest issue to tackle, though, is where to move these services in what is an already overcrowded spectrum.

If it was determined that relocation was the way to go, this would be very irresponsible as HF radio bands are a unique natural resource. No other radio spectrum can provide worldwide communications without any supporting infrastructure. The military (and Amateurs for that matter) have had satellites at their disposal for years, but HF is still in use as it provides unique capabilities that satellites just can't.

Destroying a large portion of wireless spectrum is not justifiable because it benefits more people. There are many examples of this in society where reallocation of a resource would benefit more people, but it would be detrimental long term to the people and the resource itself. Right now, amateur frequency allocations belong to the people internationally. You can enjoy them by simply passing a test and getting licensed. Once they are given to a business interest, they cease to be yours and you can only use them as a customer of that business. BPL impacts other groups including government, military, shortwave, aviation, maritime communications, and CBers, so this would have national security and international implications as well. BPL has been linked in some rhetoric with increasing “homeland security”. BPL in fact takes spectrum away from government agencies directly tasked with protecting the country.

To deploy BPL an up front investment must be made in BPL headend/feed point equipment and repeaters -- it's not as simple as FCC Commissioner Powell thinks it as, like all powerlines can be easily lit up. There's going to be significant recurring costs in backhauling the IP traffic from the numerous BPL feedpoints serving an area. Neither DSL or Cable has this recurring cost or need for multiple network origination points. These costs unique to BPL make it even less attractive for deployment in rural areas that Cable or DSL as customer densities and revenue potential is lower. While it may be stated by BPL providers that initial metropolitan buildouts are needed to subsidize rural deployments, why would any for-profit company expand into rural areas when it's a losing proposition?

The scalability of BPL is questionable. Chunks of HF spectrum must be reused between repeater/feedpoint segments. With customer bandwidth requirements going up, over subscription ratios going down, systems will need to be segmented in a cellular fashion. This exacerbates the interference issue as more frequency chunks are in use in a given area. More avoidance of frequencies (i.e. notching) will be needed, making less spectrum available for use by BPL. The frequency chunks in use will need to be smaller to enable tighter frequency reuse, and the available bandwidth per feedpoint will get to a point where it won't be sufficient.

BPL is also lacking on the regulatory front. It has no protection from interference from licensed wireless services. This means your BPL provider has no recourse if a licensed wireless station knocks out your BPL service regularly.

Power companies should be building for broadband dominance in the coming decades and beyond with viable technology like fiber, not for the next year or two with doomed-for-obsolescence technology. If the utility companies are in a frenzy to get their proverbial “foot in the door” before telcos and cable companies snatch up their potential customers, fiber delivery to the last mile and 802.11 wireless on poles for the last 100 feet makes a ton of sense. This is not a new idea and some carriers are doing it now.

In summary, the risk to licensed HF services is too great, the technological and regulatory foundation of BPL is too weak, and when compared head-to-head with other technologies, BPL loses both on the business model and technical capability side. BPL looks all glittery, but in reality it's Fool's Gold.

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