 
myhoes
Michael Extreme User
Premium
join:2003-10-05
Laval, QC
clubs: | once great! just shows you NOTHING is secure and everything can be changed / extracted / modified
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And that my friends is what they say is..That! | |
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CSULA
@calstatela.edu
 from:
dadkins 
| Re: once great! I don't even know why they even try to secure anything these days, its cracked a week later.If you can compile a program to secure something, someone else will always be able to undo that work. Just sell the frickin music cheaper and the pirating problem will disappear. 99 cents for a song, I don't think so. Now if we could only do something about those $1.50 and up ATM fees. | |
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nedlohs
@hbci.com
thumbs down from:
M A R K
| Re: once great! Why do people get so upset about paying for the convenience of getting cash at the bar when they didn't get around to stopping at the Bank? You'll happily pay $1.79 a gallon for gas with half in taxes, but God forbid the buck and a half! | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:
| Re: once great! said by nedlohs:
Why do people get so upset about paying for the convenience of getting cash at the bar when they didn't get around to stopping at the Bank? You'll happily pay $1.79 a gallon for gas with half in taxes, but God forbid the buck and a half!
I can consume about two gallons of chocolate milk in the time that my 4-banger consumes a gallon of gasoline.
And the nearest chocolate milk is $2.75 a gallon last time I checked.
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The smarter computers get, the more faith I put into Newton's 3rd law. | |
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myrr_allinc
@applwi.ameritech | Re: once great! Did you ever think that the bank has to pay a fee for ATM use? Who do you think really owns the ATM... the bank, or a corporation called TYME, PULSE, or something else of that nature? | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:
| Re: once great! said by myrr_allinc:
Did you ever think that the bank has to pay a fee for ATM use? Who do you think really owns the ATM... the bank, or a corporation called TYME, PULSE, or something else of that nature?
Let's say 2 banks both offer no-fee ATMs if you use the cards that one of them issue. Now, prospective and existing customers flock to use the fee-free ATMs of each other. Instead of collecting fees from the other bank, the banks are effectively 'cancelling' out each other's fees. Now there is certainly the possibility that one bank will be used more, but there are more than two that offer it and the program is entirely voluntary for the financial institutions that use the Shazam ATM network.
Financial institution customers that use the Shazam network but are not part of the Privileged Status do not get the right to use fee-free service. They must pay $1.50 or whatever the ATM wants to charge (legal limit?). This may upset customers so it may help 'persuade' their respective financial institution to Join In™.
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The smarter computers get, the more faith I put into Newton's 3rd law. | |
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De Badd Ass
@acs-gsg.com
| If you were banking in the early seventies, when the first ATMs were put into service, you will recall that the ATM was introduced as a money SAVING measure.
ATMs were supposed to be cheaper than tellers, and much cheaper than branch banks.
So why do ATMs cost money to use, when the branch bank and the teller are free? | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:
1 edit | Re: once great! said by De Badd Ass:
If you were banking in the early seventies, when the first ATMs were put into service, you will recall that the ATM was introduced as a money SAVING measure.
It increases the bottom line of Citibank, Wells Fargo and Bank of India. They sure didn't want you to benefit from it silly.:p
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The smarter computers get, the more faith I put into Newton's 3rd law. | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:
| [OT]Re: once great! said by KoolMoe :
But I completely agree that ATM fees are yet another bank scam.
I have an ATM/Visa card that uses the Shazam network from my Credit Union. NO FEES FOR THE CARD!! »www.comchoicecu.org/
There is a bank in town that uses the Privileged Status network. NO $1.50 FEE!!
»www.esbanks.com/port_winterset.htm
»www.shazam.net/privileged.htm
Wells Fargo and other big banks shot down the law that prohibited the $1.50 fee and Shazam thought this thing up.
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The smarter computers get, the more faith I put into Newton's 3rd law. | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9
| I disagree, I think that $.99 is a perfectly acceptable price for a song. However If when I have a the choice between a song that hastes and restricts my usage with DRM, or a .mp3 file that I can listen to as I choose. Well the answer is obvious. It's not about the price to me, it's about freedom. Stop trying to sale me inconvenience, and I'll buy your product. | |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| said by CSULA:
Now if we could only do something about those $1.50 and up ATM fees.
There is, you doofus. Go to your own bank's ATM.
Cheapskate.
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Stephen J. Friedl * Security Consultant * Tustin, California USA * my web site | |
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs: | Re: once great! but that's not conveeeeeeenient, ya know!
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djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA | Why bother trying and encrypt it in the first place when you can "Decrypt" it by burning an audio CD?
-- Rob
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\\ROB - a part of the SCB local network | |
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technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA | Re: once great! why waste a cd just to convert the file? | |
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Julio
Bachatero y Que?
Premium
join:2003-03-19
Brooklyn, NY
clubs: | Re: once great! ever heard of a thing called a CD-RW?? you know it is that CD that you can burn, erase, and burn again??
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Kurt Cobain Is My Guitar God. | |
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
 ·Comcast
| Why Pirates? Why does everyone call them/us pirates? If I BUY a song from iTunes(or any other source), I should be able to listen to it on whatever player I wish. What if I wanted to listen to it on a different type of player? SOL? I don't think so! I WILL copy it, I WILL convert it(to whatever format I choose) and I WILL play it on whatever player "I" choose! DRM THIS! | |
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myhoes
Michael Extreme User
Premium
join:2003-10-05
Laval, QC
clubs: | Re: Why Pirates? you have a very good point you had to pay for the song why cant you do what you want whit it
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And that my friends is what they say is..That! | |
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wolfox
Gentle Wolfox
join:2002-11-27
Dunnellon, FL
| Re: Why Pirates? [sarcasm] It would appear that the music mega-corp would want to see you buy a crippled CD (Remember when these copy protected CD's caused system damage in some computers?) to play in your "dumb" Discman player. Another copy that will not damage your Desktop/laptop PC, and yet another version of the same music to playback on either your home stereo CD unit or your car's CD playing head unit. Already that is buying into the same tunes, 3x over for different (and IMO broken) versions of media for each player.
If they get their way, they would have secret police tackling people in the streets and emptying your pockets for royalties when you are overheard whistling, singing or humming one of the latest "Top-40 Hits". [/sarcasm]
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Nothwest Arkansas' ONLY all Techno Radio Webcast, powered by SBC DSL! | |
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KAD Imaging
Just Shoot It
Premium
join:2002-09-21
Hialeah, FL
 ·AT&T Southeast
| Yeah, but there has always been burn to CD and re-rip to get past the AAC crap no?? I don't see the big deal for all these hacktools? CD's are cheaper than the cases you put them in...
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-Cobra Kon
"There can be only one. IE FireFox is the only one.
Got ADs? If you're using IE you do...!! | |
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redxii
too big to fail
Premium,Mod
join:2001-02-26
Texas
Host:
/dev/null
Broadband Tweaks
Suddenlink
ISDN
Fiber Optic
1 edit | I dunno.
The whole point of DRM is to keep people from sharing it illegally (if you look at the U.S. Copyright Laws you can be treated as a criminal; juste fact stating). Not being able to play in in a different player is just a side effect. I agree, nothing in the computer world is totally secure.
"Green Day - I've Fought the Law," played in the Apple/Pepsi ad on superbowl sunday, is circulating file sharing programs now. Available previously only from iTunes.
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Soyo K7V Dragon+ Motherboard, Athlon XP 1900+ @ 1.68GHz, 512MB Crucial DDR RAM (PC2100), GeForce FX 5600Ultra 128MB DDR AGP, VIA Rhine II 10/100 NIC, Samsung SD-616T 16x DVD-ROM and Sony CRX215E1 48x24x48 CD-RW, 40GB & 30GB HDD. | |
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WALL_E
Premium
join:2003-05-28
USA
| The only reason I don't agree that I should be able to play iTunes music on any player I choose is because I bought the music with the understanding that this incompatibility would be one of its limitations. I bought the license to the music, and I am subject to the terms and conditions stated in that license. If Apple had said "download songs without any limitation whatsoever for only .99" then I would definitely agree with you. But its not like they tried to hide the fact that you would be unable to play this music on many players. By downloading music from iTunes, you agree that you will use the material that you have just purchased in the way that it is legally allowed. If you don't like this about iTunes, then you can go to another music download service, such as Napster, and use the more widely used (by no means am I saying superior) WMA format. | |
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technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA | Amen Dadkins.. after watching some of your posts, we think alot alike. | |
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Logwind
join:2003-06-20 | Good. iTunes is crap. | |
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IhatemyISP
MM2 Corbski
Premium
join:2003-01-27
Japan | Re: Good. said by Logwind :
iTunes is crap.
I'll second that. | |
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osme
Premium
join:2001-09-07
Hamilton, ON
| Re: Good. There's a Mac user. Take a program that's already VERY easy to use (Winamp), and say that the Mac alternative is better simply because it's even EASIER to use.
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Brought to you by #SympaticoSucks @ EFnet Internet Thuggery & Terrorism Inc.
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sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| Re: Good. said by osme :
There's a Mac user. Take a program that's already VERY easy to use (Winamp), and say that the Mac alternative is better simply because it's even EASIER to use.
Yeah, how dare I want something that "just works" and catalogs my music for me. I should be busy tweaking until my system blue screens on a mouse movement, right?
You can keep your AOL-sponsored music player, thank you very much.
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Thanks for the memories | |
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osme
Premium
join:2001-09-07
Hamilton, ON | Re: Good. Yep. Another newbie Mac user. | |
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feedhead
join:2003-06-05
Sioux Falls, SD
clubs: | Sample It, Loop It, F#ck It and Eat It. Pop Will Eat Itself | |
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PunkGod
join:2003-02-02 | Why use that program If its anything like musicmatch's DRM protection, all you have to do is burn the song to a cd and then burn it back to your computer which completely removes the protection. | |
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join:2001-09-25
Memphis, TN | Re: Why use that program I don't know why anyone never looked at it like that in the first place...that is what I would have assumed anyone else would do anyway. | |
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M A R K
Premium
join:2001-06-15
Long Island
clubs: | Re: Sample It, Loop It, F#ck It and Eat It. "Pop Will Eat Itself" Because the Poppies are on patrol!
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SCO SUCKS! | |
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Fershlugg
join:2000-10-11
Torrington, CT | Re: Sample It, Loop It, F#ck It and Eat It. PWEI- The Fuses Have Been Lit | |
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cbs228
Geeks Of The World, Unite
join:2000-09-04
Saint Louis, MO
| Why DRM Will Fail Hacker's rule #1: There is nothing built that cannot be hacked.
Even the most stringent of DRM systems will be cracked eventually due to the rules of basic cryptography. Encryption, with a high-bit key, is very secure for purposes such as sending email since the people who intercept the data do not have the key. For DRM, however, the end-user must have the key (and algorithm) somewhere on his/her system in order for decryption to take place. At some point, these two things must be loaded into your RAM in order to turn the encrypted data into something useable. By careful examination of the program's execution at the point where the decryption occurs, it is possible to obtain both of these things.
We have seen failure after failure, in country after country, of the effort to legislate the problem to death. DeCSS and programs to crack iTMS's encrypted AACs have not gone away despite these laws. Like any number of things in the world (such as... spam!), anti-DRM cannot be eliminated with a penstroke.
We have also seen the growth of hardware-based DRM initiatives such as TCPA/Palladium/Whatchamacallit. This merely makes cracking DRM more difficult, since the same elements of decryption (a key and an algorithm) are still present-- they're just located in a harder-to-reach place and a higher level of understanding is required.
Do not underestimate the dangers of TCPA, however, since the project's goals are essentially to remove all control of your computer from you, and place it instead in the hands of corporations and other "trusted" entities. Remember, "trusted" computing means that your computer doesn't trust you— it trusts someone else instead. To me this seems eerily similar to The Clipper Chip initiative, and TCPA could be used for just that purpose. I leave you with the admonition to never surrender control of your system to another person, be it a spyware company or Microsoft, who you cannot trust to act in your best interests.
Perhaps one day the RIAA et al. will wake up and realize that their efforts to DRM-ize everything are futile and that they are only aggravating their customers in the process. But don't bet on it.
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"If you stare too long into the abyss the abyss stares back at you." -Nietzsche
GENERAL FAILURE READING ©: DRIVE
(A)bort, (R)etry, (F)rivolous Lawsuits, (B)ribe Congress? | |
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| B777300
join:2002-01-02 | Re: Why DRM Will Fail I agree... It can be hacked not really hard.
I wonder though how the key system works... So the player attempts to match the key in the system with the key in the file? If so, why can't we alter our files's key. | |
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yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON
| Apple doesn't care, they only pretend They really don't care that people are decrypting the songs they buy because it was the music labels that insisted that they have some sort of DRM. They will pretend to care and act like they are trying to stop people from decrypting the songs, but they only do it to please the old farts that own the music labels. | |
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lowiq88-user2
@nyc.n
from:
dadkins
| Pirates? LOL, RIAA calls "the kids" pirates. Gee, what do so many "kids" wanna be and glorify for Halloween? Um, gee, ugh PIRATES! There is even a MLB team called, guess what? THE PIRATES! Calling kids pirates only makes them feel it is EVEN COOLER to get mp3. Shit, I'm far from a kid and I think it's pretty damn cool. Too bad that REAL PIRATES TAKE PHYSICAL property(ies) and deprive the owner of the original PHYSICAL copy. If you only download mp3, you never removed a COPY THAT CAN STILL BE SOLD in stores. So, downloading is NOT STEALING, THEFT of any other ludacris crap. But, Pirates are cool anyway.  | |
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More pirate talk
@nyc.n
from:
dadkins
| More piracy? Oh yeah, and, if a pirate is after you on the high seas and gets ya, good chance you're dead. Comparing that to downloading music is stupider than me using the word stupider. Ahoy matey! Arrrrghh | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:
| Re: More piracy? said by More pirate talk:
Oh yeah, and, if a pirate is after you on the high seas and gets ya, good chance you're dead.
Try not to say anything bad about yourself. The RIAA knows your IP address!
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The smarter computers get, the more faith I put into Newton's 3rd law. | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs: | Re: More piracy? I checked the RIAA hitlist on »www.eff.org/ and found nothing! | |
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kaila
join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL
clubs:
| Hey let's not get mad at Apple... The system and DRM they set up is the result of what the labels dictated and were going to let them get away with.
At least Apple made a whole-hearted effort, and I applaud them for that [and i'm a windows user, if it matters]. That in the face of unbelievable gouging by the labels. If memory serves correct, Apple is virtually running in the red with iTunes because the labels take nearly all of that .99 cents per song. Plus the labels full control of availability of their artist catalogues and limiting "hot songs" [notice all the partial albums iTunes offers?] by artists must make it a nightmare for Apple to manage. | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß
| Be careful little fishies That crack has be countered already...download a new tune from iTunes and have that crack present...you will lose ALL your songs on the iPod hard drive.
Before you little girls and boys get in an uproar as to how unfair it is...read your license agreement in depth of your iPod and of the iTunes download agreement. | |
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M A R K
Premium
join:2001-06-15
Long Island
clubs:
| Re: Be careful little fishies said by AnonProxy :
That crack has be countered already...download a new tune from iTunes and have that crack present...you will lose ALL your songs on the iPod hard drive.
Before you little girls and boys get in an uproar as to how unfair it is...read your license agreement in depth of your iPod and of the iTunes download agreement.
And then smack your self in the face for buying it! Stay away from anything that uses proprietary software for music.
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SCO SUCKS! | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß | Re: Be careful little fishies Here's a small note:
Before posting to one of my posts, please have something worthwhile to say. mmmmmmkay. | |
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M A R K
Premium
join:2001-06-15
Long Island
clubs: | Re: Be careful little fishies No, thats cool... ill keep it on the safe side. I don't feel bad i did not spend $400 on an ipod.
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SCO SUCKS! | |
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ctceo
Premium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN
clubs: | hahahah Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated! | |
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Vvian Kalyss
join:2003-10-14
Stage 5.0
clubs:
|  The buck stops here
Now, "selling" music online. Once I've paid for the tune, I expect no less than if I bought an actual physical cd: no moronic corporate suit is going to tell me what music player I CAN use. If I want to play it on WMP, or WinAmp, or burn it to CD to play on my discman, or whatever type of player I like, then it's my own goddamn business.
Sure go ahead protect your site so that 1337 kiddies don't crack it apart and let people download all your junk for free; protect the site so that our transactions (me paying for the song, them sending the song to me) don't get screwed up; that's fine. But when I receive that song that I PAID for, I damn well expect to be able to listen to it in whatever way I choose. Don't give me that only-5-times, can't-burn, proprietary-format crap.
Those companies should have their business models shoved up their asses, sideways and with all sharp corners exposed.
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" Her eyes were just the end of Hell-- / All pain, / Articulate " | |
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g3ddylee
join:2002-12-09
Lincoln Park, NJ | Re: The buck stops here Man, that was deep. A-freaken-men | |
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KeepOnRockin
Music Lover Forever
Premium
join:2002-11-08
Beaverton, OR | Exactly! | |
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mofachu
@charter.com | Google Irony Anyone notice the Google ads at the bottom of this thread trying to sell DRM? Not very effective placement IMO. | |
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Apple DRM Vs. Pirates
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