  Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18 | Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US .. is sadly behind due to the Telco death-grip on us.  | |
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 |  Marilla9I Am My Own ArbiterPremium
join:2002-12-06
Belpre, OH | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US yeah.. that must be it.
It couldn't possibly be because we're a gigantic country compared to Japan, with a telephone system that was started long before most every other nation on the planet.
Nah.. couldn't be anything like that.
--
Windows, Mac, Linux, BSD - just use the right tool for the right job... end the OS Politics!
Real politics is much more interesting! www.georgewbush.com | |
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| | Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18 | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US And it couldn't be that we (the US) already paid for fiber once and the Telcos have spent the funds elsewhere that were for the fiber? Nah, they wouldn't do that?  | |
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| | | hedyd4uPremium
join:2003-12-16
Schenectady, NY | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US Show the proof that you already paid for fiber. Other than making a statement provide your irrefutable proof. | |
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| | | |  tcp1Premium
join:2000-04-17
Herndon, VA
 ·Verizon FiOS
| Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US Ugh.. Another person who doesn't know what they're talking about.
Do you understand that the whole mandate for the fees and charges and government subsidies of the RBOCs through the 80s and early 90s was infrastructure build out for things like FTTP and at least ISDN-in-every-home (way back when)? Do you realize that this NEVER HAPPENED?
This was the whole motivation for telcos to even engineer DSL! They could use their old, old, often circa-1960 infrastructure to deliver broadband to "most areas".
We have already paid for the fiber. It's there, for the most part, miles upon miles of dark fiber. This is commonly known and a historical fact. Drive around any suburban neighborhood and you'll see orange or yellow conduits sticking out of the ground and taped off. This is not for to-the-home soft-serve ice cream delivery.
hedyd4u, you're like, way out there or something. | |
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| | | | | | | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US There is a lot of depolyment of FTT-Remote Terminal. Many DSL lines are supported by a fiber being laid to a Remote Terminal with a DSL aggregator (this is the fiber you see in your neighborhood). Each of those Remote Terminals can serve thousands of customers. Where a Central Office may serve 100 Remote Terminals, the same central office serves 100,000s of customers. Laying 100 fibers is not a problem.... laying 100,000 fibers to each home is EXPENSIVE.
And who is responsible for running the fiber within the existing buildings? It doesn't do anyone any good to drop a fiber on their doorstep. Someone has to wire the house, apartment building, office building and office parks.
There have been a few municipalities that have installed their own fiber loops - Palo Alto, CA is one. When they were laying the fiber they offered local business and residents the option to access the fiber - for a monthly fee and a fixed cost to bring the fiber to your location. The monthly cost was $100 for 10Mbps - not bad. The fixed cost was $10,000!!!
I think fiber to the neighborhood, and wireless (WiMAX???) to the home is the best option The fiber to the Remote Terminal is already there - put a Pole and Antenna on the RT - DONE. Plus you get the benefit that your services follow you wherever you go.
The wireless access may possibly be future proof. It would probably be much easier to replace the electronics in a transmitter on a pole than to replace every interface to every fiber to every home?!?!? | |
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| |  dadkinsCan you do Blu?Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18 | Well, duh. It wouldn't be very productive to fiber the entire Country...but, all major metro areas should be fiber by now! LA should be fiber,San Francisco, New York, Atlanta, Detroit, Chicago... Philadelphia(hello, Verizon)should have several flavors by now, it's already been paid for!
Now, in rural America, it would have to wait(sorry guys). But densely populated areas, we should have some smokin' fiber already up and running.
There is no legitimate excuse not to have fiber in big cities, for everyone, at fairly low prices.
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Nuke 'em all, let God sort 'em out. | |
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| hedyd4uPremium
join:2003-12-16
Schenectady, NY | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US .. Move to japan if you think life is great there then no more worries about telco death-grip. | |
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| | Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18 | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US said by hedyd4u:
Move to japan if you think life is great there then no more worries about telco death-grip.
I'll move after you do. LOL | |
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| |  Subaru1-3-2-4Premium
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US .. said by hedyd4u:
Move to japan if you think life is great there then no more worries about telco death-grip.
I'd do it.. but no so just for internet
--
It's NOT Ni-kon It's NE-KON!
"It is a mistake often made in this country to measure things by the amount of money they cost."
Albert Einstein | |
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| | |  N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1 | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US .. UGH, not enough space man. Everyone is living on top of each other.
Besides, I don't like that raw fish they've got.
Give me a thick steak, my way too big pickup(w/gun rack), and I'll "suffer" with my 3mb cable connection any day.
I'm an UGLY, fat, stupid American, and that's the way I like it! | |
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| | | |  TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US said by N3OGH:
UGH, not enough space man. Everyone is living on top of each other.
Besides, I don't like that raw fish they've got.
Give me a thick steak, my way too big pickup(w/gun rack), and I'll "suffer" with my 3mb cable connection any day.
I'm an UGLY, fat, stupid American, and that's the way I like it!
I love being an American! God Bless this land of McDonald's and Enron's! oh' yea and Walmart too! I love to know I can go 2 blocks and get a nice big greasy Big Mac, with a super size fry and a large coke to make my American ass fatter!
Screw you World, I'm staying in America with my 10mbit/1mbit connection! 
-Tzale | |
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| | | | Subaru1-3-2-4Premium
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US .. said by N3OGH:
UGH, not enough space man. Everyone is living on top of each other.
Besides, I don't like that raw fish they've got.
Give me a thick steak, my way too big pickup(w/gun rack), and I'll "suffer" with my 3mb cable connection any day.
I'm an UGLY, fat, stupid American, and that's the way I like it!
Heh.. well you said that yourself, I guess you don't like Seafood? And the thing your talking about is Sushi, you should try some Tofu!
--
It's NOT Ni-kon It's NE-KON!
"It is a mistake often made in this country to measure things by the amount of money they cost."
Albert Einstein | |
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| | | | |
approval from:
IGGY 
| Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US .. Actually, raw fish is "sashimi". "Sushi" refers to any dish with rice that's flavored with vinegar and sugar. Yes, lots of sushis have sashimi IN them ... but not necessarily. This misnomer is really annoying to someone with Japanese heritage. | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US Your problem is overlooking the jingoistic nature of America. I mean come on, we're the world police and can unilaterally make decisions that go against the reccomendations of the United Nations. Even though we are supposedly the paramount of DEMOCRACY. But anyway, back to the point (sort of), some Americans tend to not see past thier own self view (How many here can name the prime-minister of Canada?), so you'll have to accept... sometimes even expect the ignorance and understand that we will change the meaning of things as we see fit.
Someone who speaks two languages is bilingual, a person who speaks three languages is call trilingual. A person who speaks one language is American. | |
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| | | | | | | Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18 | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US said by garbagescow:
A person who speaks one language is American.
Or only speaks espanol and is just over the southern border. No habla engles, senior! | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US .. sore wa, so da ne. Ore mo nihon no heritage motemasu  | |
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| | | | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US My friend is getting 12mbs DSL for about $45/mo. I wish I could move out there... more for technology and learning a new culture than net service though. | |
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| TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US said by Doctor Olds:
is sadly behind due to the Telco death-grip on us.
I couldn't agree more. For me to save my time, and the frustration of fighting with a bunch of knuckle heads over why BPL is NOT the answer and fiber is, I'll just stick to this one reply. I did the entire "debate" over BPL each time it came up, and it seems I can't change anyone's minds. BPL causes interference = Bad. BPL is SLOW just as BAD as DSL. We don't want a short-term solution we want a LONG-TERM fiber to the home/premise solution. Fiber = Unlimited bandwidth, hardware easily upgraded for more bandwidth as it's needed. BPL = Limited to the amount of bandwidth copper lines can handle. Causes much interference to many radio using groups.
Screw BPL, Screw DSL, Screw Cable! Hello FIBER
-Tzale | |
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| | | Re: Fiber is the answer. Japan has it and the US .. Fiber is cheap, but the labor to lay the fiber is very expensive. I think that if any of these companies tried to run fiber to the home for all their customers, they would go bankrupt.
It would seem to make sense that the fiber infrastructure should be considered just that - infrastructure - like highways, bridges, etc. Let the local governments issue bonds to fund the build of the fiber infrastructure. Those communities that find it important will vote to pass the issuing of the bonds.
Then to pay off the bonds and pay for maintenance, the community that owns the fiber can sell/rent access rights to the carriers - SBC, Verizon, AT&T, Covad, whoever...
Potentially, this could be a huge source of revenue for the local governments - why not? NYC makes a lot of money from charging toll on bridges where the bonds have long since been paid - as well as the fairs on the subway, which far exceeds the cost of maintenace. | |
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| Kamper
join:2004-07-20
Mansfield, OH | Dont believe everything you read! It works with no interference! There are many enemys to BPL... | |
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ieee1394Premium
join:2001-08-25
Washington | Who wants BPL anyway??? BPL is just a plain dumb technology. You'd think someone would have realised that there would be huge interference issues when trying to transmit data over an inherently noisy medium.
The smarter thing to do would be for the power utilities to string fiber along their right of way....Oh yeah, Pepco tried to do that in the DC and Maryland via Starpower and they've been trying to get out of the business ever since. Too bad, it was pretty awesome broadband. Maybe power utilities should just focus on what they do best. | |
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Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| said it before, will say it again BPL is outdated technology that apparently is being proven to not work particularly well (at least regarding interference).
The future of broadband is fiber; it's great that there are these other, inferior technologies that might be able to fill the gap, but that's all they will be able to do - fill the gap until the real stuff comes along. In the future, technologies like this and slower DSL and cable will be like dialup is now.
STOP WASTING MONEY ON OBSOLETE TECHNOLOGIES AND GIVE US FIBER! | |
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w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO | not "commercially deployable," Well another smart company who knows when it's time to kill this dead horse, stop dumping good money into it and use that money for other better technology. The others will follow as soon as they realize the same. Only depends on how politically beaurocratic they are. I love it when lawyers and marketers try to sound technical, they always make complete fools of themselves. It's like a dentist trying to fix a musclecar - get the fire extinguishers out! | |
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 gwionwild colonial boyPremium,ExMod 2001-08
join:2000-12-28
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:1 | It's sadly behind, alright... ... because sharing power lines for secondary purposes is a primitive technology, dating back to the sixties, and because it involves forcing high-tolerence network communications across a plant designed to carry low-tolerence, very low frequency electromagnetic waves down a one-way pipeline... while it's being used to do that. How would you like it if the gas company decided you could run water through the same pipeline that delivers your gas? I'm sure it can be done; if you waste as much money as it would cost to build TWO separate, discrete delivery systems working out all the bugs and getting it up and running... but would it be the best or most efficient use of that money, or that system? Or would researching truly new, truly exciting, practical delivery systems be a better use of the money?
I hate being one to say I told you so...
but...
I told you so.
--
Semper Eadem
There struts Hamlet, there is Lear,That's Ophelia, that Cordelia;Yet they, should the last scene be there,The great stage curtain about to drop,If worthy their prominent part in the play,Do not break up their lines to weep. | |
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BPremium,MVM
join:2000-10-28 | But was it every actually TRIALED?
The first article, from the Finger Lakes Times, is so filled with question marks (at least in Mozilla) that it's quite difficult to read.
The second article is much better.
But NEITHER article says that trial ever actually BEGAN!
It sounds more as if they just decided against doing it because of the possible interference issue and miscellaneous pressures from all that publicity.
Does anyone know if even a single bit was ever pushed over power lines in Penn Yann?
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
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| | BPremium,MVM
join:2000-10-28 | Re: But was it every actually TRIALED?
Thanks, tenbase. However, the first article apparently was BEFORE any physical deployment, and the second article, while it mentions equipment and interference, doesn't really say that any data was passed. (It's dated April First!)
But it does appear from that second ham radio article that some equipment testing went on -- thank you!
RF interference aside, I wonder what their data testing results were like.
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
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| | | BPL will fail for one simple reason. Economics! The inherently noisy medium induces slow speeds. Although they talk about the 'last mile solution,' the last mile will never be discussed, much less implemented.
Do the math. $30/mo x 1000 users is only $30K/mo. A deployment able to handle 1000 users will cost an exceptional amount of money to maintain. There are far cheaper methods of getting dial-up speeds than BPL.
The companies 'rolling out BPL' have started without a plan. They get in up to their necks in hardware and figure it's time to make a financial plan. Guess what? It won't cash flow. | |
|
 TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
 ·CenturyLink
| What I don't understand is the lack of forward thinking. If the power companies would just string fiber as an investment. It isn't
going to get any cheaper to do it and so what if it is mostly dark it is one of those situations where "if you build it they will come". Companies which in the past when they installed fiber and did it with huge amounts of over capacity are reaping the benefits of their foresight now.
The really great thing about fiber is is doesn't get obsolete the technology is at either end and as light modulation technology improves more and more data can be stuffed down these light conduits. This is one of the main reasons why Japan is so far ahead of us in this area.
they have a forward looking mind set.
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»www.gobpl.com | |
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| | | Re: What I don't To all those idiots who said it will work and said "who cares about ham radio", TOLD YOU IT WOULDN'T WORK!!!!!
Stop wasting time on outdated technology, like the guy above said fiber is not going to get cheaper. Build it and they will come. | |
|
 panth1The Coyote
join:2000-12-11
Boca Raton, FL | Underground lines? I keep seeing these trials in areas with overhead service. Have there been any trials using developments that have underground service and would that make a difference?
Feed the lines at the point they go underground where they are shielded. | |
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| TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY Reviews:
·CenturyLink
| Re: Underground lines? said by panth1:
I keep seeing these trials in areas with overhead service. Have there been any trials using developments that have underground service and would that make a difference?
Feed the lines at the point they go underground where they are shielded.
Yes this was tried in Germany and it really didn't make much difference. The interference was reduced from the underground lines but when it came above ground and went into the homes and businesses it was the same old story.
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»www.gobpl.com | |
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| w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO | There is aprox. -3db effect in signal strength between above ground wiring and below ground, depending on frequency used of course. BPL whether above or below ground uses HF frequencies from around 1Mhz all the way up to 100Mhz. This is shown in the ARRL archives on BPL. So if you were experiencing +15db over S9 interference with above ground system, the same system with below ground would still be S9 +12db. Now even with below ground systems, the wiring comes up into the buildings walls and ceilings anyway so then walla you have another +3db from that building anyway, depending on how far the buildings are spaced would determine the average strength somewhere between +12db over S9 to +15db over S9 in that area. The frequency used is important here because of wavelength. The longer the wavelength the farther the interference will travel whether above or below ground. Example a signal at 7Mhz has a wavelength of aprox. 132Ft per cycle. If the system were below ground for 60 ft. and then came up into the building, that leaves 1/2 wavelength for above ground radiation - and very effective radiation at that. About the only way to contain this interference signal is to go coaxial. Now the cable co. has already done this and very well. They adhere to strict guidelines as far as leakages, and come out and fix any leakages very quickly. Will the power co's come out and fix your baby monitors when all you can hear is static? Will they come out and fix your garage door opener when it opens and closes without command from you? Heck No - but they won't tell you this. | |
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| | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO | Re: Underground lines? I forgot to mention in the above post that the wavelength stuff is assuming conducted noise not actual radiated. The radiated part is affected by many other factors. Also the cable co. that uses coaxial cable for all their stuff, they also use frequencies well above HF 1-30Mhz, it's more like mid to high UHF band 400-500Mhz. | |
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| | |  halfbandPremium
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL | Re: Underground lines? The cable system down stream is in the 400-500MHz range or even up to 750MHz. The return path is in the range of 5-50MHz. But since cable is a shielded system it does not matter much.
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Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812 | |
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 SuntopPremium
join:2000-03-23
Choteau, MT
·3Rivers Communic..
2 edits | I told you so 
It isn't going to work It has been dropped many times due to interference problems in one area and not commercially deployable in another and other various problems. So We will see it dropped completely unless they find a way to eliminate the problems. Wireless is the way to go, that or fiber. I been saying fiber is much better not only is it fast, after initial costs it is pretty cheap to offer and it has NO interference. Even Cable and DSL have interference I unplugged my cable modem once and the noise I had on the low bands went away. It can't be avoided even with the QUAD SHIELDED cable that my cable company uses.
It don't go far it is pretty localized with the cable and DSL causes some weird noises on some areas of the low bands. Light is better than RF in any form. So we will see what happens. One day we will have FTTH just gotta wait. I will probably be 40 by the time they decide to implement the FTTH here in America. The home of the most expensive broadband.
--
The following statement is true...
The preceding statement was false!!
--George Carlin | |
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| w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO | Re: I told you so The reason you still have some interference from your cable box is not the coax, it's the box itself. The shielding in these boxes now a days leaves much to be desired. It is radiating from the circuit board inside (made in China) and with the lack of shielding in the case, it is still radiating some. You could try to place the cable box in a metal drawer and ground the input connector and the drawer to a good short ground. | |
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approval from:
Transmaster
| BPL was not "commercially deployable," BPL need not be deployed to be commercial. Only enough shares need to be sold while stalling any large scale trials. Then when the scheme begins to implode the crooks can grab the money and run for the hills.
The fiber situation is similar to electrification issues in the 20's. The telcos play the role of the electric monopolies. See this interesting article for details
»www.baller.com/library-art-history.html | |
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| TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY Reviews:
·CenturyLink
| Re: BPL was not "commercially deployable," said by sbcnemesis:
BPL need not be deployed to be commercial. Only enough shares need to be sold while stalling any large scale trials. Then when the scheme begins to implode the crooks can grab the money and run for the hills.
The fiber situation is similar to electrification issues in the 20's. The TELCO's play the role of the electric monopolies. See this interesting article for details
»www.baller.com/library-art-history.html
YES!!! you have grasped both the present and the past of this issue. If you study the electrification of the United States in the 1930's under FDR they parallels are striking.
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»www.gobpl.com | |
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| | Come out, come out, come out wherever you are.....Where are all the pro-BPL trolls at? Could it be they realize they were wrong?
One by one the trials go down and one by one they figure out that it won't work.
Looks like the rural broadband is not "commercially viable" to BPL either. | |
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See 27 replies to this post |
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| | Cheering the slow but ongoing BPL death Bring on Fiber and WI-FI even WI-MAX if as one persistant poster has stated "there is no Interference" why will it be banned from certain areas and frequencies? Answer because it does cause interference. What will happen to your BPL when the truck driver keys his CB? Answer you could lose bandwith during his transmission. Why won't it ever work? Answer not enough useable bandwith where they are trying to implement it and high cost of implementation. My thought is this go get a FCC Freq allocation chart and look at what is in the 1.8-80mhz range and see how many of these heavily used services you don't need. HF spectrum is ideal for long range comunications and it is needed for many services like rural police who cannot afford to place repeaters all over their jurisdiction. Forestry Service for the same reason Military and public services like the Red Cross use HF for the same reason it works. Now comes along a bunch of well meaning morons who see it as a Broadband answer and no matter what the won't get it untill they are in a emergency situation and their only hope is HF radio but their own BPL interfers with the reception on the other end so no help comes should they get a lawyer and sue themselves for stupidity. Ham Radio is not a growing group but it is still a very important one, From the Boy Scout who helped save some of his fellow Scouts by having his portable radio with him, to the thousands who volinteer to work with public service and safty groups. We work in the background and have a vital effect on many lives each year but no one seems to care untill they need help. Many ham operators routinly monitor aircraft and shipping channells and have the equipment to make a connection when others do not maybe just to patch aphone call home from overseas to our service men and women, When you watch movies and see the person talking on a radio to a loved one at home odds are it is thru some outdated useless Ham radio equipment. Another interesting tidbit on HF is that it bounces or skips around the world under certain conditions this will have to be true of BPL as it radiates on these frequencies. So if your download affects a emergency transmission can you be sued for it because as a Ham we can be held responsible for what when and where our signals go and the harm they cause. Out where the house's are a little further apart HF radio is important in town where your vinyl rubs you neighbors brick VHF and UHF work better. Also note that all modes of transmission on HF are required to be narrow bandwidth to leave room for others to use it not ultra wide bandwidth internet. Our own rules dictate that we use the lowest power and narrowest bandwidth possible to avoid interference this to allow thousands to use the small amount of HF space available. Otherwise many would be running high speed modems thru huge amps and could take over entire sections of HF, this by the way would completely wipe out a BPL system. Well I have rambled on long enough good luck to all except BPL proponets.
James | |
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