 | | % 100% like not to get gouged on the prices of those services too.. | |
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 | Reviews:
 ·Verizon FiOS
| Re: % It takes like $1500 to pass each subscriber with FiOS, youre constantly bashing this company on price. If they were making money like you *think* they are, they wouldnt have stopped expansion.
Now go read the newspaper, or a quarterly report, or somethin' | |
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| | Reviews:
 ·ooma
 ·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: % said by ITALIAN926:It takes like $1500 to pass each subscriber with FiOS, youre constantly bashing this company on price. If they were making money like you *think* they are, they wouldnt have stopped expansion.
Now go read the newspaper, or a quarterly report, or somethin'
I don't need to justify my statements in EVERY thread as to why Verizon is on the wrong path.. they just are.. so leave it at that. The price hikes across the board served little more than to prop the bottom line and bring earnings in-line with what AT&T was raking in.. which keeps up the stock price. The consumer? disadvantaged at every turn. I'm STILL apparently getting emails as if I'm still a customer. Pathetic, they're probably still keeping customers who left on the books to prop up those quaterly numbers... | |
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| | | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: % Not an ounce of sense in your entire post. People like you are part of the problem. Verizon invested $1600 to bring you FiOS, and you left after one year. You think they made money on you? Funny. They LOST money ! People who drop services because of a $10 /mo difference actually drive up prices in this scenario.
They are a business trying to make money, they arent a non-profit charity like you seem to believe. | |
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| | | | Reviews:
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: % If broadband were an actual utility you would be entitled to it like you are the others.
Verizon would have to provide reasonable service without gouging, like the others.
I would argue that today broadband is actually needed by most people, maybe 95%.
So it *is* a utility and deserves regulation as a public utility, especially since these companies have easements on property that we, not they own to run their wires and fiber, there is a giant barrier to entry for competitors.
Some amount of regulation of utilities of this type with these perks is required. As soon as we get some the gouging will stop and the service will hopefully improve.
We have connected lives and a connected future. It's not a matter of whether sewer, water or electricity are more or less imporatant than broadband, it's that we do need them all in our society. The broadband providers hate the idea that they should be forced to serve the public in the public interest, but the sooner that principle is assigned to broadband the better.
I have ATT DSL. No UVERSE on my side of the street. Slow, really slow. I need better and I deserve better.
ATT can't give me better without getting up out of their chair and actually working, doing something they should be doing anyway, which is repairing and replacing their copper plant, which is owned by the telco ratepayers by the way.
They'd rather not. So I struggle.
The sooner broadband becomes a right with standards for performance the better. If ATT won't do it the right of ways should be transferred to a company that will. | |
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| | | | | | | Re: % why do you "deserve better"? Quite the sense of entitlement no?
If it really is that valuable, then paying more per month shouldn't be a major issue right?
I see it another way, for the low sum of $50 a month you have access to all kinds of services that in the past would have cost hundreds of dollars per month and would have taken many hours more of your time to access.
no, it's an optional service that is by no means a right or a utility. | |
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| | | | | | | Whether regulated or not, you cant force carriers to charge prices that causes them to lose money. Is your checkbook balanced? | |
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| | | | | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Re: % Regulation doesn't necessarily mean price control. Regulation could be as simple as defining what broadband means and how it should be billed -- not what can be charged. | |
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| | | | | | | | said by ITALIAN926:Whether regulated or not, you cant force carriers to charge prices that causes them to lose money. Is your checkbook balanced?
IMO, make the internet a utility would at first cause some uproar and price changes but after a few months the companies that provide the internet would realize its now a utility. Something people say they need for life. That is practically guaranteed money from more people that they have now. | |
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| | | |  firephotoFacts hurtPremium
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA | said by ITALIAN926:Not an ounce of sense in your entire post. People like you are part of the problem. Verizon invested $1600 to bring you FiOS, and you left after one year. You think they made money on you? Funny. They LOST money ! People who drop services because of a $10 /mo difference actually drive up prices in this scenario.
They are a business trying to make money, they arent a non-profit charity like you seem to believe.
Use your example on an electrical utility and the cost associated with the equipment and wiring needed to serve a single family residence. You can even ignore the main transmission lines running down the street and start counting where the wires connect to the transformer. Those parts are not cheap but the industry doesn't try to make the money back on them in 1.5 years either.
The point is maybe if an internet company would invest in infrastructure instead of aiming for yearly profit records by taking shortcuts at every turn the situation in this country would be different.
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Say no to astroturfing. actions > Ignore Author | |
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| | | | | | | Re: % said by firephoto:said by ITALIAN926:Not an ounce of sense in your entire post. People like you are part of the problem. Verizon invested $1600 to bring you FiOS, and you left after one year. You think they made money on you? Funny. They LOST money ! People who drop services because of a $10 /mo difference actually drive up prices in this scenario.
They are a business trying to make money, they arent a non-profit charity like you seem to believe.
Use your example on an electrical utility and the cost associated with the equipment and wiring needed to serve a single family residence. You can even ignore the main transmission lines running down the street and start counting where the wires connect to the transformer. Those parts are not cheap but the industry doesn't try to make the money back on them in 1.5 years either. The point is maybe if an internet company would invest in infrastructure instead of aiming for yearly profit records by taking shortcuts at every turn the situation in this country would be different. A utility company gets to connect every house on the street. Therefore they see a return from every house passed. In competing markets such as Internet with more than 1 player, there isn't anything saying that people will connect to their service. So if they have 50% take rate (really high), they are actually paying $1500X2 or $3000 to connect a house.
See the difference?
The reason prices get driven up by people jumping back and forth is that the lines are still being paid for and still being maintained. If they take the effort to hook you up and you jump after a year, they have put forth a bunch of money and effort that has to be recouped. It's the others on the system that pick up that tab. | |
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| | | | | | WhatNowPremium
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC | Re: % It was decided with the telcos that there should be competition and they broke up MA Bell. You are now reaping the rewards of that decision. When you divide the pie into too many small slices nobody is satisfied.
I wonder if the best solution would be a dumb (fiber) pipe utility and then let every customer contact a content provider. The content providers can compete on price and content.
The fiber utility is only the fiber. The content provider would furnish the electronics on the head end and the customer end. That way if someone comes up with better electronics or content at a price each customer can decide to stay or leave their content provider. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Re: % said by WhatNow:I wonder if the best solution would be a dumb (fiber) pipe utility and then let every customer contact a content provider. The content providers can compete on price and content.
This has been done in several municipal Public Utility Districts in Washington State. They have a municipal fiber network that is available for various service providers.
This was a political mess to create. Initially the PUDs offered service directly, but the telcos sued and it was determined that under Washington law, PUDs can't serve end users, only wholesale customers. So in each PUD there are a bunch of ISPs that offer different services using the PUD's fiber. | |
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| | | | | Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| It's the difference between how the finance system is in the US and in Japan. In Japan they think nothing of developing something new that will be highly profitable in 10 years. Ever seen a Prius?
In the US if it doesn't show on this quarter's balance sheet wall street would think poorly of them- so they can't spend the money. It results in all the short sighted ripoffs that pervade our society.
But the thing to remember here is these same companies have received easements to run wires and to operate on our property and I have not been paid for that.
I object to private companies being given gratis access to utility right of ways when they are not operating as utilities, in the public interest.
I have ATT running Uverse wiring out by my property line and they want that all to be completely deregulated.
But guess what, those easements were for the PSTN, not for Uverse video and internet. I charge $4,000 a month for access to that easement. It's mine, not theirs.
I am waiting for my check. | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: % Technically, they are still providing PSTN over those lines, arent they? Youre gonna try to tell them what kind of 1's and 0's they can send along with it? | |
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| | | | | | | Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: % They have those free easements to provide PSTN, in the public interest. As regulated utilities, gouging was not allowed.
You really think I have to let them carry their paid traffic across my property free? Do they let me send my traffic across anything of theirs free? Can I install a server at their CO free? Nope. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: % LOL youre assuming that if fully regulated, prices would be LOWER.
Gouging with competition? Dont think so. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: % There is so little competition in broadband it makes no sense to even mention it. In areas where there are even two providers I think they have a special smoke filled room to discuss things. DSL is failing right now in any case, and not because the telcos couldn't compete, they just don't care to.
But I didn't say that anyway, I just don't agree to have an unregulated for profit company using my property (or even public property) to conduct their business.
Unless they want to pay me for the pleasure. Believe me, if I wanted to run some wires across their property they'd be standing there with their hand out. And for good reason. | |
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| | | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | So someone voting with their pocket book and deciding a $10 price increase makes them look elsewhere is the reason prices are too high?
Help me understand the economic theory behind that logic. | |
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| | | | | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: % quote:
So someone voting with their pocket book and deciding a $10 price increase makes them look elsewhere is the reason prices are too high?
Help me understand the economic theory behind that logic.
If Verizon spends $1000 to connect your house with equipment and labor, and you cancel after a month, where does Verizon get that lost money from? the OTHER CUSTOMERS. Or do you think they get to print their own money like the government.
Please help me understand YOUR theories. | |
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| | | | | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Re: % If a new store is built in my neighborhood, I need to shop at it regardless of the prices they charge. If I don't, they won't be able to generate enough revenue to pay for their capital investment. Faced with insufficient cash flow, their only option is to raise prices. Is that your perspective? | |
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| | | | Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS
| said by ITALIAN926:Not an ounce of sense in your entire post. People like you are part of the problem. Verizon invested $1600 to bring you FiOS, and you left after one year. You think they made money on you? Funny. They LOST money ! People who drop services because of a $10 /mo difference actually drive up prices in this scenario.
They are a business trying to make money, they arent a non-profit charity like you seem to believe.
Actually, I was one of the FIRST in NY state to get FIOS in 2003.. and for what was available, it WAS a good deal.. but then they let several factors spin out of control and re-write the company's path... From 2003 - 2008 I had FIOS.. then a year of optimum then back for another 2 years.. after that the prices spiked across the board.. no reason to stay.
Verizon's costs to upgrade the network and their subsequent lackluster 25% uptake rate are the result of corporate management decisions and failures, NOT the responsibility of subscribers! First, an investor revolt led to management changes which wanted to KILL fios deployment-- knowing full well this innovation will future-proof a vital market (the NORTHEAST). Next, a grand bargain to sell off unprofitable markets in shady debt reducing deals was borderline ILLEGAL.. Add to that the many conditioned Verizon put on obtaining fios, including contracts, etf's mandatory triple play services or NOTHING.. forcing customers to pay what amounts to a hybrid digital landline service (POTS over FIOS) for years meaning there were higher costs while voip developed into a viable service consumers got stuck with a higher than absolutely necessary bill.
The last straw seems to come from recent anouncements (some of which they've pulled back a little on) that price hikes are here to stay and an emphasis on usage based billing for wireless data is the way to go.. puts the company on the WRONG path of innovation and on a path of anti-consumer..
Feel free to disagree with any or all of that.. you look at one single issue of the high upfront costs and seems to say that ALL is justified by customers leaving them.. sure, what do you think the gas stations will do when customers buy hydrogen cars.. they'll keep jacking up the price of gasoline for as long as they can.. that's what they do..
Those of us with a a memory that lasts more than 4 years can see bigger pictures and patterns of coporate and societal conduct. | |
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| | | | | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: % 25% adoption rate that you state is flat-out wrong, its higher than that, and they continue to add subscribers quarter after quarter. They "passed" like 16 million homes thus far, and have like 5 million customers, do the math .
You constantly complain about FiOS contracts post after post, but there are no required contracts anymore. People are free to lock into one or not.
Also, what kind of adoption rate would you think is acceptable?. Like it or not, TV service is what sells FiOS, regardless as to what all the computer nerds of dslreports say. FIOS penetration in towns without TV franchises is very low.
Given that FACT, Verizon competes with 4 TV providers, sometimes 5 : The cable co, DirecTV, Dish Network, and sometimes a 2nd cable co like RCN. A 40% penetration rate is right on where it should be. | |
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| | | | | Verizon Wireless *used to* be on the right path -- I'm currently reaping the benefit of a former CEO who had the future in mind and put a nice fat fiber pipe under our road. He knew that broadband was going to be a huge thing and planned for it, but he didn't last long because the stockholders weren't happy they weren't earning profits fast enough.
I have 3mps DSL but it's a godsend compared to satellite and depending solely on wireless data. Our jetpack makes a great backup for when the power goes out. That's a big risk over the next two days as winds from Hurricane Sandy whip through Michigan. | |
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| | | | Just out of curiosity how much do you think it cost them (in today's dollars) to pass every house with copper when that was rolled out a hundred years ago? | |
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| | | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
1 edit | Re: % quote:
Just out of curiosity how much do you think it cost them (in today's dollars) to pass every house with copper when that was rolled out a hundred years ago?
It doesnt matter, "a hundred years ago" the company was a regulated monopoly/utility and they charged their customers what they needed to pay expenses. | |
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| | | | | | Re: % LOL, they were a regulated monopoly starting in the 80's you moron.
Regardless, they were able to rollout to everyone and still make a handsome profit on a product that people CHOOSE to buy even with monopolistic pricing.
Just as today, they make billions in PROFIT every quarter and can rollout fiber to every home and business that had copper deployed to it over the last 125 years and pay cash to do it. They couldnt even install it fast enough to eat up all their profits. So you arguing that it is too expensive to do it now is just silly.
$1500 per house is not much for a company like that with a captured market. Unless of course that company expect to have all that expense paid off and making pure profit on it the next month. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them writing that expense down over 10 to 20 years. In that case it cost less then $150 per year and a $40 a month charge covers plenty of expense and profit for them. | |
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| | | | | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
4 edits | Re: % They make BILLIONS in profit? whooooooooah, I wonder why they halted FiOS since its sooo successful.
And you call me a moron, most of Verizons profits comes from their wireless side.
Regulated since the 80's? No shit, check for the keyword I used : FULLY. Todays regulations are virtually nonexistant compared to the "80's"
My turn to LOL
Edit, TMC check out »www22.verizon.com/idc/groups/pub···etin.pdf you will find they have 33% video penetration, and 37% penetration for internet. So stop yapping the false 25% statistic you constantly spread on this board.
and Skippy, check the same link for the breakdown of profits of wireline / wireless. Youll probably ignorantly come back with "it doesnt matter" blablabla..... | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: % They halted it because the shareholders weren't happy with making what they were making. It had nothing to do with success or failure or going in the red to do it.
I know where most of their profit comes from. That doesn't matter, like you foretold, as it is still money going to the company. Money that the company can use to deploy future infrastructure that will last for decades. Just like they did way back when. If they want to separate it out, then fully break off the wireless division but they don't and why do you think that is? That's right, so that the parent company can bath in those billions along with the wireless. Since they wont separate, neither should we.
You are absolutely correct today's regulations are none existent, which is 99% of the problem in a captured market that has extreme barriers to entry as we have today. Which is why I say they should be required to deploy it to every place that has copper. You of course claim that is just to expensive at $1500 per home. I already disputed that with simple math and reasonable depreciation. Which is being very generous to them being they get to greatly accelerate the depreciation cost to enjoy even bigger returns. Even if it was $5000 a home it would still be very profitable charging less then $100 a month for. | |
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| | | It's equivilent to $5000/home! if they are at the 1/3 subscribed of homes passed, then that means that one house is paying to pass 3. So for every paying customer, they need to input $4500. You'd be lucky if the equipment last 5 years. It won't last 20. The cable might, but the equipment sure won't.
So if they've passed 16 million homes, they have spent 24 BILLION in infrastructure, that they need a return on. It isn't about breaking even, they're in it to make money. Would you invest 10s of billions of dollars into a risky venture if it would take you would make millions per year? Let me reduce that for you. Would you invest $100 to make $1 year? | |
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 thegeekPremium
join:2008-02-21
right here
kudos:2
·Suddenlink
| Messed Up Priorities This is messed up. This is why our economy is crap. People don't know the difference between needs and wants. Broadband is a want. Electricity is a need. Electricity is an important utility. Broadband is not. People pay for their internet connections and then don't have money to pay their electric bills and have to rely on social welfare programs to pay for their electric bills. | |
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See 31 replies to this post |
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 Thrudd
join:2004-06-21
Mississauga, ON | Numbers Numbers never lie
Science and Engineering
Then there's Marketing
There is a divine truth to my haiku. The modern world would not exist without Mathematics and the truths revealed through numbers. Unfortunately marketing types have learned to spread lies - sorry advertise - by the misuse of numbers.
I can safely hazard to guess that these numbers have been finessed through artfuly asking the question a certain way and creatively defining what would be included in the group. Mind you I do not put it past Sales to outright lie to everyones face if there is no verification reasonably possible. | |
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 skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2
·Cox HSI
 ·Clear Wireless
| 52% of people are beyond stupid Ask those on the East Coast today where they would put clean running water and electricity on their priority list.
What this is, in addition to proving people are dumb, is clear evidence of our superior infrastructure. Electricity and water services are SO reliable that people simply take it as a given. They have zero clue what it is like in some other countries where power isn't reliable. | |
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See 6 replies to this post |
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amungusPremium
join:2004-11-26
America Reviews:
·KCH Cable
·AT&T DSL Service
| analogy This (headline subtitle) is perfect.
It's a bit like saying your car is more important than gasoline. One is the utility, the other makes use of it.
Perhaps even better, it is like saying that the highway is more important than the car. Without the highway, where would you go 70+ MPH? Without gasoline, where would either be useful?
Sure, it's important, but not a utility as currently defined.
I would agree that there are those on the east coast who would rather have electricity first. Can't really do much internetting without it  | |
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| bemis
join:2008-07-18
Reading, MA Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: analogy I would argue this is like gasoline and roads.
Gasoline is electricity
Roads are broadband
Computer(or other device) is car
If you have gasoline and a car, but no roads... there are some things you can do--keep warm, sheltered, etc... but you can't actually go anywhere. | |
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| | amungusPremium
join:2004-11-26
America | Re: analogy bemis - I like your assembly of this analogy. | |
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| Reviews:
·Comcast
| said by amungus:This (headline subtitle) is perfect.
It's a bit like saying your car is more important than gasoline. One is the utility, the other makes use of it.
Perhaps even better, it is like saying that the highway is more important than the car. Without the highway, where would you go 70+ MPH? Without gasoline, where would either be useful?
Sure, it's important, but not a utility as currently defined.
I would agree that there are those on the east coast who would rather have electricity first. Can't really do much internetting without it
Excellent analogy.
You're driving down the road and you run out of gas. Sure you can coast a while (IE, I have battery backup) but when you run out of inertia your stuck.
Dave
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I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night. | |
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 Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | Really? Let's see the addicted to internet operate their play toys without electricity or function without water.
This is crazy. | |
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bemis
join:2008-07-18
Reading, MA Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon FiOS
| Most important RELIABLE utility Between batteries, UPS', generators, etc... I can easily weather a power outage--in fact anything under an hour and I don't even need to do a thing. Longer than a day or two and I'll need to refresh my supply of gasoline.
As I learned this past storm, relying on just cable is a mistake. It went out immediately with power in my area (and it was not due to a pole/cabling failure).
I'm looking into the least expensive way to get intermittent tethering access to a smart phone... though right now I'm w/ AT&T goPhone plan on an iPhone, so I don't have it... | |
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| | Those 52% Don't realize you need electricity to have broadband.
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»www.VAJeeps.com | |
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| | Electricity. For me there are alternatives for most:
Water--a well would be fine
Sewer--a septic tank would be fine (in fact I had it when I first
moved here)
Heating--I already use Propane, which is trucked in.
Telephone--not too important--3 phone calls a week or so. And
VOIP would work--except my internet signal quality makes VOIP
not the highest quality.
So the essentials are:
1. Electricity--the most important
2. Broadband | |
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| | | Re: Electricity. said by PastTense:For me there are alternatives for most:
Water--a well would be fine
Sewer--a septic tank would be fine (in fact I had it when I first
moved here)
Heating--I already use Propane, which is trucked in.
Telephone--not too important--3 phone calls a week or so. And
VOIP would work--except my internet signal quality makes VOIP
not the highest quality.
So the essentials are:
1. Electricity--the most important
2. Broadband
I can do better than that: Heating: I have a wood-burning stove, lots of split wood, and more to harvest out back.
That's mere syntactic twaddle, though. Heat, water and electricity far outstrip the importance of broadband.
Jim | |
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firephotoFacts hurtPremium
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA | I can't make my own broadband The problem is, and the industry knows it, is that I cannot buy a "magical" device that generates broadband internet. Hell I can't even get one that makes slow internet.
I can have solar panels and wind generators and small hydro generators too or even spend money on petroleum fuel to generate electricity easily but you just cannot do that with the internet.
So as a utility, yes, broadband is more important than electricity.
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Say no to astroturfing. actions > Ignore Author | |
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|  revrus
join:2002-07-14
Chillicothe, OH | Re: I can't make my own broadband Man you folks should live out here. Electric going out for weeks on end is a common occurrence.
Yet we still have the people who are amazed every time it happens.
The funny thing is that most of the time when the electric service here is out the phones still work.
Also you are forgetting the many people who work from home. Broadbands out they don't get paid and may lose their jobs.
--
DOS: n., A small annoying boot virus that causes random spontaneous system crashes, usually just before saving a massive project. Easily cured by UNIX.See also MS-DOS, IBM-DOS, DR-DOS.(from David Vicker's .plan) | |
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| | | If you have power you can have internet. As far as I know none of the satellite providers are out of service.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | Re: I can't make my own broadband said by battleop:If you have power you can have internet. As far as I know none of the satellite providers are out of service.
Depends on cloud cover...some networks (TV) where off the air. Local (storm related) power problems sent some off to. Nothing is perfect.
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Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it. | |
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| | | | | Re: I can't make my own broadband A larger reflector fixes rain fade. | |
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| | Anyone who thinks............ Wait a minute! Better take that subject line back as obviously, most people DON'T think!
Anyone who thinks broadband is the #1 priority utility is absolutely nuts! Just ask the people on the east side of the U.S.
I couldn't believe that line when I first read it. 
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The Firefox alternative.
»www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/ | |
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|  Rogue WolfReally Ties The Room Together
join:2003-08-12
Troy, NY | Re: Anyone who thinks............ Well, don't you know? It's one thing not to have power, or edible food, or clean water... but for some people, not being able to complain about it every five minutes over Twitter is a fate worse than death!
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I may have been born yesterday, but I've spent all afternoon downtown. | |
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