Radio Hobbyists on Warpath ARRL descends, makes ruckus at trials Tuesday Aug 24 2004 09:54 EDT Lawmakers in Princeton, Illinois have been under heavy fire from the The American Radio Relay League for choosing Broadband Over Powerlines as their broadband connectivity of choice. The city denies any problems with interference, saying they've "done their homework" by checking out interference at other trial locations. The ARRL recently requested that the FCC shut down a trial in Arizona because of interference. |
  DaMaGeINCThe Lan Man
Premium Member
join:2002-06-08
Greenville, SC |
DaMaGeINC
Premium Member
2004-Aug-24 10:04 am
No point.I dont know why BPL providers waste their time. This technology isent ready for use yet. All it has is problems, its too slow, and legacy ham people dont like it. This is something that SMALL towns need to use that dont have cable and still drive 60's ford trucks. | |
|  tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA |
tenbase
Member
2004-Aug-24 10:10 am
GreatAnother BBR article that paints big targets on it's ham members. Is this week-old news really front page story material? | |
|  | moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD |
moonpuppy (banned)
Member
2004-Aug-24 12:45 pm
Re: Greatsaid by tenbase:
Another BBR article that paints big targets on it's ham members. Is this week-old news really front page story material?
Gotta gives those basement dwellers some hope for high speed.  All the bashing took place after the HAMs pointed out the interference. Now, we are the enemy for wanting to keep the airwaves open.  | |
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sthuperduper
Anon
2004-Aug-24 10:21 am
broadband over powerlinesoriginally phone lines were designed and built to carry voice communications
originally power lines were designed and built to carry electricity to consumers
why dont they design and build a method to carry data to consumers? they should quit half-assing their ways of providing internet to people.
I disagree with broadband over powerlines because of the proof ham radio operators have shown of interference. The people who are complaining are often people who have been screwing around with radio communications longer than I have been alive. These people know what they are talking about. (I am also a licensed ham radio operator) | |
| |  P NessYou'Ve Forgotten 9-11 Already
Premium Member
join:2001-08-29
way way out |
P Ness
Premium Member
2004-Aug-24 10:24 am
Re: broadband over powerlinesOMG give this a rest...sometimes old technology needs to die in order to make way for new, better technology that will benefit even more people then the old.
don't give me that crap about how wonderful ham is during emergencies...most likley during emergencies there is no power thus no interference... | |
| | |  qdemn7Smurf in My Loop
Premium Member
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX |
qdemn7
Premium Member
2004-Aug-24 10:30 am
Re: broadband over powerlinessaid by P Ness:
OMG give this a rest...sometimes old technology needs to die in order to make way for new, better technology that will benefit even more people then the old.
don't give me that crap about how wonderful ham is during emergencies...most likley during emergencies there is no power thus no interference...
Every heard of a generator? Most hams have back-up diesel or gas powered generators for just such emergencies. Screw BPL, it's not a proven technology. This is just an attempt by another group of get-rich-quick types trying to dip their wick in the Broadband pot. | |
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Re: broadband over powerlinesCQ! CQ! You missed the point. He said that during emergencies there's no power. No power means no BPL. Ergo, during emergencies, ham radio, with a generator, will be useful. Roger that? | |
| | | | | tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA |
tenbase
Member
2004-Aug-24 12:49 pm
Re: broadband over powerlinesgood grief.
* during an emergency, people will need to communicate with areas that still have power.
* nobody is going to maintain the equipment and skills necessary to communicate in an emergency if they are unable to be used during normal times.
* there is no reasoning or excuse for bad engineering.
* there are better ways to wire the country.
* this is the gazillionth time we have gone over this. | |
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Re: broadband over powerlinessaid by tenbase:
good grief.
* there are better ways to wire the country.
There have been better ways to wire the country for years. Yet, nobody will do anything to wire the country.  I can sympathize with the Hams over the interference of BPL, yet I can't necessarily feel to sorry for a group that wants to protect just their interests and leave everyone without. And, yes, In a lot of cases, all people have is powerlines & phone lines (and the Telephone Company has proven for years they won't bother to upgrade anything over that line they laid in the 1950s). Oh yes, there's wireless, but then again, he comes the Hams decrying that they're losing more radio frequencies. My message to you hams is this: If you want people to sympathize and help out with your plight, help them get what they would like....high speed access to the internet (without having to get a flippin incentive based license). For once you guys could use your technical prowess and figure out something like how Broadband can work over some existing power, telephone, or some other strand of fiber to homes rather than to have the attitude of "It interferes with me, shut it all down", followed by "Can't get Good Access? Not my problem, man". Don't think just because you do public service during emergencies to the community absolves you of the responsibility of service to the community every day....just like everyone else. | |
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Re: broadband over powerlinessaid by Spicerunner:
My message to you hams is this: If you want people to sympathize and help out with your plight, help them get what they would like....high speed access to the internet (without having to get a flippin incentive based license). For once you guys could use your technical prowess and figure out something like how Broadband can work over some existing power, telephone, or some other strand of fiber to homes rather than to have the attitude of "It interferes with me, shut it all down", followed by "Can't get Good Access? Not my problem, man". Don't think just because you do public service during emergencies to the community absolves you of the responsibility of service to the community every day....just like everyone else.
Why is it our job to make someone else's idea and business plan work? If I come up with a broadband solution that pollutes your water, will you fix it so I can make money? A Ham invented spread spectrum which is used in 802.11 and other broadband wireless. There's your ham-created alternative....now go use it... | |
| | | | | | | tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA |
to Spicerunner
quote:
I can sympathize with the Hams over the interference of BPL, yet I can't necessarily feel to sorry for a group that wants to protect just their interests and leave everyone without.
Again - for probably the 50th time - I must stress that amateur radio represents less than ten percent of HF spectrum allocations. And the ARRL represents about one fifth of licensed amateur radio operators. Personally I am here to defend any and all radio spectrum against needless pollution by A WIRED NETWORK and to educate those willing to listen on the things the BPL lobby does not tell you. quote:
Oh yes, there's wireless, but then again, he comes the Hams decrying that they're losing more radio frequencies.
Uh...we have been pushing for wireless in every one of these threads. That's kinda what we're into, ya know, wireless? quote:
Don't think just because you do public service during emergencies to the community absolves you of the responsibility of service to the community every day....just like everyone else.
I'm into ham radio for the technical aspect so I don't wear the public service hat unless absolutely necessary. But please enlighten me as to the grand public services being accomplished by "everyone else" on a day to day basis? I am very interested in learning not only what my fellow man does for the good of my community every day, but also what exactly is so important about broadband internet access that it is worth sacrificing a vital natural *worldwide* resource for? | |
| | | | | | | moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD |
to Spicerunner
said by Spicerunner:
There have been better ways to wire the country for years. Yet, nobody will do anything to wire the country.
And have you ANY idea why? It is money, pure and simple. No one wants to spend it. Fiber is way better than anything out there but you have to start almost from scratch and no one wants to wait more than a couple years for their return on investment. said by Spicerunner:
I can sympathize with the Hams over the interference of BPL, yet I can't necessarily feel to sorry for a group that wants to protect just their interests and leave everyone without. And, yes, In a lot of cases, all people have is powerlines & phone lines (and the Telephone Company has proven for years they won't bother to upgrade anything over that line they laid in the 1950s). Oh yes, there's wireless, but then again, he comes the Hams decrying that they're losing more radio frequencies.
First off, BPL will NOT go to rural communities. If they made money, cable and DSL would have already been there. Second, wireless doesn't work unless you have one high point or flat terrain. Third, the wireless frequencies that would be used would be in the GHZ range. The spectrum we are talking about from about 1MHz to 80MHz. BIG DIFFERENCE. Totally different type of spectrum with different properties. Fourth, the phone company saw no need to upgrade when they had a guaranteed cash flow. said by Spicerunner:
My message to you hams is this: If you want people to sympathize and help out with your plight, help them get what they would like....high speed access to the internet (without having to get a flippin incentive based license). For once you guys could use your technical prowess and figure out something like how Broadband can work over some existing power, telephone, or some other strand of fiber to homes rather than to have the attitude of "It interferes with me, shut it all down", followed by "Can't get Good Access? Not my problem, man". Don't think just because you do public service during emergencies to the community absolves you of the responsibility of service to the community every day....just like everyone else.
That incentive based license keeps HAM radio from becoming CB. Plus, it is also governed by international treaty so we can't just say screw everybody else. We, as Americans, can choose where to live. If you can't get high speed access where you live, then you have to live with that decision. I may want to live on a ranch in the middle of nowhere. I may not be able to get city water or sewer but I take that into consideration when I choose to live there. It is not the HAM's job to push the phone companies nor cable companies to provide high speed access. That is for the market to decide. Want high speed, pester the phone and cable companies. | |
| | | | | | | |  UnKnownThe Underground Network
join:2002-09-08
San Pedro, CA |
Re: broadband over powerlinesok guys i got the Solution.
Revolutionary i know.
To meet other people on the ham radio throw it away and join a chat room.
Dude your amazing!
in emergencies use a sattellite phone.
HOLY JESUS your smart as heck.
If u still like the thril of radio clicks, put a huge @$$ amp on a cb radio and a large antenna outside of your house.
I myself use the cd radio in my car. Great means of communication and the cb has really died down alot. I mean barely anyone uses it anymore so all you harcore people use channels 30-40 and everyonelse can use 1-29. ok problem solved, now u can throw that peice of equitment out that was made in 1892.
I should get a noble prize for that idea. | |
| | | | | | | | | tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA |
Re: broadband over powerlinesUpon reflection, I do not wish to post. Take me back! | |
| | | | | | | | | moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD |
to UnKnown
said by UnKnown:
ok guys i got the Solution.
Revolutionary i know.
To meet other people on the ham radio throw it away and join a chat room.
WOW, another troll. Radio goes everywhere. Chat rooms need the internet. Can you have reliable internet in your car? No? My radios are powered by batteries. said by UnKnown:
Dude your amazing!
Admire me from afar. said by UnKnown:
in emergencies use a sattellite phone.
Sure, pay my bill and hope the satellite isn't saturated with other calls. said by UnKnown:
HOLY JESUS your smart as heck.
And you are dumb as a door knob. said by UnKnown:
If u still like the thril of radio clicks, put a huge @$$ amp on a cb radio and a large antenna outside of your house.
I myself use the cd radio in my car. Great means of communication and the cb has really died down alot. I mean barely anyone uses it anymore so all you harcore people use channels 30-40 and everyonelse can use 1-29. ok problem solved, now u can throw that peice of equitment out that was made in 1892.
Amps are illegal. Plus, CB's are for the uneducated masses (like yourself) who have no concept of communications. Plus, the limited range (and the limit of 150 miles for contact) is not to my liking. Also, CB will be killed by BPL. Think of that? Guess not.:p said by UnKnown:
I should get a noble prize for that idea.
More like a helmet and ride on the short bus. | |
| | | | | | | | | | UnKnownThe Underground Network
join:2002-09-08
San Pedro, CA |
UnKnown
Member
2004-Aug-27 10:33 pm
Re: broadband over powerlines"Radio goes everywhere. Chat rooms need the internet. Can you have reliable internet in your car? No? My radios are powered by batteries."
Indeed u can, its another revolutionary concept called the blackberry device. not onyl can u check e-mail, make phone calls to anywhere around the world and the person recieving the phone call doesnt have to be right next to his radio station, you can chat on the net.
In an emergiency the community would pay your satellite phone, infact you wouldnt even have to have it, members of the support teams and rescue teams would have them call in that your alive and well, it would be posted on a web site, and people all around the world would know your alive.
Like the fcc enforces cb amp laws anymore. who cares if the for the uneducated masses, thats what america is filled with, dont like it, talk on a private chat room on the internet.
No i wasnt aware that bpl killed cb radio, i thought it was just the "ameuture" sections of the ham radio spectrum.
i ride the short bus to school everyday, so thats nothing new for me. | |
| | | | | | | | | | moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD |
moonpuppy (banned)
Member
2004-Aug-28 11:35 am
Re: broadband over powerlinessaid by UnKnown:
"Radio goes everywhere. Chat rooms need the internet. Can you have reliable internet in your car? No? My radios are powered by batteries."
Indeed u can, its another revolutionary concept called the blackberry device. not onyl can u check e-mail, make phone calls to anywhere around the world and the person recieving the phone call doesnt have to be right next to his radio station, you can chat on the net.
Wow, so you want to surf the net on a screen smaller than monitor. While you may be able to check email and make phone calls, we in radio can chat with anyone who is on the air. Plus, we have the personable voice and not have to ask A/S/G while you chat with a 60 year old man calling himself "Susie." said by UnKnown:
In an emergiency the community would pay your satellite phone, infact you wouldnt even have to have it, members of the support teams and rescue teams would have them call in that your alive and well, it would be posted on a web site, and people all around the world would know your alive.
HAMs don't get paid now as it is. Plus, you may want to talk to the Baltimore County Fire and Police Departments about phones. Back in 1986, a set of 3 Conrail engines collided with an Amtrak train. When they tried to use their brand new cell phones, the cell sites became overloaded with emergency calls and normal calls. Turns out, since the crash happened next to a busy highway during evening rush hour, the cell sites couldn't handle that many calls. Wonder how many sat phones can handle? Plus, $0.17/minute? Radio is free plus the equipment costs are as little as $100 for HF equipment while SAT phones are about $750 for one handheld. Think the government is going to pay for that? Another good thing about radio is the ability to broadcast. Have to find someone in a particular place? With sat phones, you have to keep calling until you find someone. With radio, you can put out a general call and wait for a response. If phones were so much better, public service would have ditched their radios and, so far, they haven't. said by UnKnown:
Like the fcc enforces cb amp laws anymore. who cares if the for the uneducated masses, thats what america is filled with, dont like it, talk on a private chat room on the internet.
Maybe you want to speak to that guy whose amp killed my TV every time his Chevy Astro van passed my house. The FCC got him for over $50,000 in fines and when he didn't pay, the local city police went in there and took his equipment which was valued at over $10,000! said by UnKnown:
No i wasnt aware that bpl killed cb radio, i thought it was just the "ameuture" sections of the ham radio spectrum.
From 500khz to 30Mhz, the HAMs only occupy a mere 4Mhz of spectrum (out of nearly 30.) Just over 1/10 of the space. CB's operate from 26.965Mhz to 27.405Mhz with spacing for 40 channels. The 10-meter HAM band operates from 28MHZ to 29.7Mhz with different areas reserved for different modes of operation (Morse Code, SSB, FM, Packet, etc.) Both of these bands will be killed by BPL. Take a look here: » www.indyscan.com/text/ra ··· pect.txtNot only HAM and CB but even the AM broadcast band and even TV channels 2-6 will be affected. said by UnKnown:
i ride the short bus to school everyday, so thats nothing new for me.
Don't forget you tin foil helmet. | |
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quote:
said by rf_engineer:
Why is it our job to make someone else's idea and business plan work?
quote:
said by tenbase:
I'm into ham radio for the technical aspect so I don't wear the public service hat unless absolutely necessary...but also what exactly is so important about broadband internet access that it is worth sacrificing a vital natural *worldwide* resource for?
quote:
said by moonpuppy:
It is not the HAM's job to push the phone companies nor cable companies to provide high speed access.
Hmmm...Interesting and Telling Statements from publicly minded Amateur Radio Hobbyists (doesn't ARRL promote good relations to the community?). So it's not your job to help out others.
Anyhow, thanks for proving my point. As long as you HAMs don't care about anyone or anything else other than if you can use your radio, don't expect the rest of us to care about you. And you guys wonder why people don't care about your HAM community. | |
| | | | | | | | tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA |
Re: broadband over powerlinesLet's see...
* Logical fallacy? CHECK
* Edited quotes taken out of context? CHECK
* Avoidance of questions? CHECK
* Big ol' red herring? CHECK
I do believe you have a promising career in politics ahead of you! | |
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to Spicerunner
said by Spicerunner:
Anyhow, thanks for proving my point. As long as you HAMs don't care about anyone or anything else other than if you can use your radio, don't expect the rest of us to care about you. And you guys wonder why people don't care about your HAM community.
Thanks for twisting my words. So I guess I should drop the selfish work that I do each year with the March of Dimes and other local non-profit organizations providing free communications for their events in my spare time so I can devote my time to helping the local power company get BPL working. Makes sense. I guess I need to realign my priorities. Let me give you this analogy, so perhaps you'll understand. The local McDonalds developed a new hamburger they want to sell. You know how to cook because you cook food at home. The new hamburger tastes lousy, and they can't figure out how to prepare it right. I think you should go work for McDonald's, for free, and help them make the burger taste good so they can begin selling it, otherwise you're selfish, greedy human being with no regard for people who need to eat. All you care about is making food for yourself so you can eat. | |
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| | | | | | 95flhr
join:2000-11-21
Springfield, VA |
to Spicerunner
This is not just an issue with HAM radio, it is an issue with radio in general. This stuff interferes with Public Safety communications just as it does with HAM radio. I have been involved with communications systems for about 25 years now. If you don't care about Police, Fire Ambulance communications, let alone FEMA, the Department of Defense or others then by all means jump on the BPL bandwagon. Just don't complain when emergency responders don't because they can't communicate. | |
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to P Ness
said by P Ness:
OMG give this a rest...sometimes old technology needs to die
BPL is old and failed technology – been around since before DSL, has never worked, and never will. Unshielded power cables will always radiate and pollute. | |
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Re: broadband over powerlinesFluorescent lights bleed over. Over modulated CB radios bleed over. Hell ... refrigerators bleed over. Learn to build your own decent antenna array and quit bitching. | |
| | | | | tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA |
tenbase
Member
2004-Aug-24 12:54 pm
Re: broadband over powerlinesthere is no equivalence between point source interference from appliances and full-spectrum noise from a wired network. And over-modulated CBs are just plain illegal so there is no relevance whatsoever. | |
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to bored_in_nh
said by bored_in_nh:
Fluorescent lights bleed over. Over modulated CB radios bleed over. Hell ... refrigerators bleed over. Learn to build your own decent antenna array and quit bitching.
LOL. Tell me how you build an HF antenna array that has a BPL power line in its near field have any kind of pattern sufficient enough to have a null that will put the received BPL signal in the dirt. | |
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Re: broadband over powerlinesI reconsidered and wish to withdraw that response. In NH, I built a series of multiple full wave antennas suspended between several 100 foot plus pine trees. I actually was too close to the power lines to mount an antenna on my roof, so running a half spool of thick coax out there to the trees was my only option. Now that I live in KY, and having witnessed some of the wildest thunderstorms I've ever seen, I no longer consider that as an option for any area except one that has:
1.) no or very few ice storms
2.) few problems with high winds
3.) huge trees
4.) suitable area to construct outside of the field of the power lines.
I have the trees, but the wind during these storms around here is ferocious, and they say ice storms are frequent too.
Pardon me, I have erred. In my defense, I would say that most hams will find a way to get out if at all possible. When I rented that house, I scoped out the trees with a view to string up what my neighbors called "the trapeze rig" | |
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Re: broadband over powerlinesAt various test sites they're seeing BPL signals up to a mile to a mile and a half away, so it's hard to escape. The FCC wrote in their NPRM that hams could orient antennas away from the interference, but failed to indicate how you build an antenna to do this. Sure, if you're talking a microwave antenna, getting 30dB of front to back ratio is not too hard. Building a similar antenna scaled up to a frequency with a wavelength of 65 feet is a bit difficult on an acre lot  If BPL continues and the HF bands get decimated, I have no doubt hams will find some way to continue to operate, it's just their nature. It won't be pretty though and it's definitely unnecessary. I'd hate to see such a vibrant technical community reduced to two meter repeater shack-on-the-belt appliance operators. | |
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| |  SteveI know your IP address
join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA |
to P Ness
said by P Ness:
OMG give this a rest...sometimes old technology needs to die in order to make way for new, better technology that will benefit even more people then the old.
This is a fair and principled point (though I don't share it) - many times older technologies must give way for newer. But if this is to be the policy in this case, then the law must be changed to support it. Right now, the law is very clear that interference is simply not allowed, and the hams are simply enforcing their legitimate rights. "Just ignoring the law" when it doesn't suit you leads to very bad public policy. Steve | |
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Re: broadband over powerlinessaid by Steve:
the law must be changed to support it. Right now, the law is very clear that interference is simply not allowed, and the hams are simply enforcing their legitimate rights.
It doesn't make sense to allow the interference, though. It's a wired network polluting wireless spectrum as a side effect, not part of the core functionality of the product. Cable operators have had to comply with radiation standards for years. Undoubtedly more people benefit from cable TV and cable modems than fly airplanes (cable frequencies would interfere with VHF aeronautical frequecies). Should we eliminate cable radiation regulations as complying with the law is costly for cable operators and has persumably hindered deployment? There apears to be a general misconception that broadband deployment needs BPL and BPL needs to radiate to work, and everyone needs to step aside to accomodate the flaws of BPL. This is an engineering problem, not a legal one, and certainly not an issue of someone exercising their rights as what may be perceived as outdated or inapplicable laws holding back a new technology. If this is the case, all licensed frequency allocations are in danger, as the next technology that decides to squat on cellular/PCS spectrum or FM radio (for example) should be accomodated with legislation. | |
| | | | | SteveI know your IP address
join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA
1 edit |
Steve
2004-Aug-24 11:29 am
Re: broadband over powerlinessaid by rf_engineer:
It doesn't make sense to allow the interference, though.
I happen to agree with this, but I was speaking to the venue for the policy decision, not what the policy decision should be. I can only think of two principled positions in defense of BPL: 1) it doesn't cause interference 2) it does cause some, but this "higher use" trumps other uses #1 is a technical matter to be resolved by the technical people (the "RF engineers"), but #2 is clearly a matter of public policy. If one wants to say that amateur radio (and other services) must be subordinated to the public interest of increased highspeed internet, that is a defensible position (again, "defensible" in the sense that one can make it with a clear conscience and belief in a higher good, not that it's "correct"). But if so, then then this must addressed directly by changing the law to reflect that policy. This properly shifts the making of public policy to the legislature, where it belongs, instead of out in the field where it's badly conflated with technical issues. Personally, I believe that BPL is a terrible idea and cannot imagine how one can put a very long antenna 30 feet up in the air and expect it not to radiate. Steve | |
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to P Ness
said by P Ness:
OMG give this a rest...sometimes old technology needs to die in order to make way for new, better technology that will benefit even more people then the old.
don't give me that crap about how wonderful ham is during emergencies...most likley during emergencies there is no power thus no interference...
{ sigh } I can't believe a year later at BBR we're still having the same discussions. Regardless of ham radio, this affects maritime, aeronautical, government, and international shortwave stations, to name a few. Please read the NTIA studies if you'd like the gory details on all the users beyond ham radio and what they recommend should be protected frequencies. The "no power, no interference" argument has been beaten to death here. The bottom line is stations in powerless areas need to communicate with stations that do have power. The old technology versus new argument. Ditto. Read my FAQ » www.qrpis.org/~k3ng/bpl.html . This isn't a ham radio versus broadband debate. It's an all licensed HF spectrum users versus BPL interference issue. OMG is right. It's rather pointless debating misconceptions and outright wrong information when the facts are there for anyone willing to do the research. | |
| | | KB2PSM
join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
1 edit |
to P Ness
said by P Ness:
OMG give this a rest...sometimes old technology needs to die in order to make way for new, better technology that will benefit even more people then the old.
That can, in some cases, be a reliable statement, but in this case if you want to be intellectually honest, then you must look at the facts and agree that BPL (now no one is saying nay to Broadband at all!), which uses or tries to use the power lines as a transmission source is itself an old and sloppy technology that needs to die for a truly better, more efficient, more reliable and less polluting form of broadband. Lets not gear up for the wrong battle here. The ham community and other users of the HF frequencies are themselves broadband users...they do not object to Broadband, to the internet or to anyone gaining access to it. What is at debate here and solely refuted is the use of the power lines to promote broadband. Why is this technology being pushed? Not because it is the new technology you and others are hoping for but because the power line companies would like to jump on the broadband bandwagon with whatever they have (unshielded power lines). Be clear that hams and other radio users (public service, etc.) comfortably and quietly co-exist with cable television across this great country EVEN THOUGH the frequency used by cable is directly in the VHF bands. Why the peaceful coexistence? Because the cable companies designed their system from the ground up to support their services and use reliable shielded coaxial cable in which to do so. The power line companies can offer no such system. Rob | |
| | | moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD |
to P Ness
said by P Ness:
OMG give this a rest...sometimes old technology needs to die in order to make way for new, better technology that will benefit even more people then the old.
don't give me that crap about how wonderful ham is during emergencies...most likley during emergencies there is no power thus no interference...
Guess you remember 9/11. So did the HAMs: » september11.mrtmag.com/a ··· _center/Besides, even if there is no power in the affected area, the receiver needs to be able to hear the call for help from the affected area. Can't do that if BPL is up and running. | |
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zerobias to P Ness
Anon
2004-Aug-24 12:30 pm
to P Ness
So what are you planning to do about interference to aviation, public sector communications and the rest?
I could accept your premise about "better technology" if BPL were the case, but really now, learn about RF and BPL before you shoot off your mouth about it being better.
I'm neither a ham nor a pilot, but I design antennas for ERI and I can assure you, BPL is an abortion. | |
| | |  N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs |
to P Ness
said by P Ness:
don't give me that crap about how wonderful ham is during emergencies...most likley during emergencies there is no power thus no interference...
Well, if HAM's can only use their equipment during an emergency, when BPL is not functioning, why the heck would they spend thousands of dollars on equipment they can only use every now and again. For the amateur service to exist, HAM's have to be able to use their equipment for their own enjoyment as well as in an emergency. In addition, HAM's have to be able to keep their communications skills sharp. What good is an emergency traffic net if no one know how to operate the equipment, or if it even works, since they haven't used it since the last emergency. | |
| | | |  BadHatHook'M Horns
Premium Member
join:2003-10-14
Rosa's Place
1 edit |
BadHat
Premium Member
2004-Aug-24 4:41 pm
Re: broadband over powerlinesI am a ham operator. I belong to several Emergency Communications groups locally, covering several counties. We use our equipment every day, run practices nets regularly, and have mock up emergency practices on a regular basis. As pointed out here, we can't do that with constant interference from any source. Make BPL fix their problems and let's quit taking cheap shots at the ham operators. Go ask the served agencies from Hurricane Charley what their opinion is on ham radio operators.
K5KCR | |
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| | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO |
to P Ness
"make way for new, better technology "
Give me a break. This technology is ten steps backwards as far as shielded cable goes - it is not shielded at all. Why do you think they went to coax for tv reception instead of twinlead? Because it's shielded and can better block any unwanted interference from the power lines among other things. For Christ sake this was back in the 50's. Also do you think more people on some crappy 400k connections are going to do any good during an emergency? Alot less than the amateur radio operators who have been on the wireless frequencies since the turn of the century, and when all else fails during an emergency the hams always come through. But you can't just take away these frequencies and then expect us to help you only when the power goes out. You Dxxx Axx! | |
| | | hrobins
Premium Member
join:2000-10-15
White Rock, BC
1 edit |
to P Ness
said by P Ness:
OMG give this a rest...sometimes old technology needs to die in order to make way for new, better technology that will benefit even more people then the old.
don't give me that crap about how wonderful ham is during emergencies...most likley during emergencies there is no power thus no interference...
Old Technology needs to die.... Try telling that to the people in Flordia after Charley hit. As it has been said before, BPL does not only affect Hams, its affects other parts of the wireless radio. Howard Robinson KG4GSN/VE5GSN | |
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BPL is gross pollutionBPL trashes up the whole shortwave for all users not just the hams. The other folks who depend on the shortwave trust the FCC to protect them and not just sell out. That trust has been betrayed by the FCC. | |
|  Rhobite
Premium Member
join:2002-02-24
Waltham, MA |
Rhobite
Premium Member
2004-Aug-24 10:28 am
The big questionSo, does it interfere with ham radio or doesn't it? It seems like this is a pretty easy question to answer, yet after millions of dollars of investigation we're still stuck. The BPL companies say there is no interference problem, and the hams say there is. What gives? Aren't there trials going on? Can't I just take a radio out there and see for myself if it interferes? I don't understand why there's all this debate when this is such an easy thing to determine empirically. | |
| |  TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY |
Re: The big questionsaid by Rhobite:
I don't understand why there's all this debate when this is such an easy thing to determine empirically.
This is the Problem. The Amateur Radio community has over and over, and over again demonstrated there is serious RFI from BPL test sites. BPL companies refuse to release their data claiming it is a trade secret. They try to hide test sites, they stone wall, they flat lie. Like I have said before if this technology had been brought before an FCC review board staffed by competent engineer's it would have been laughed out of the building. The Electronics Engineers who are supporting this either got their degrees out of a Cracker Jack box, or money is more important then professional standards. | |
| |  n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY |
to Rhobite
said by Rhobite:
So, does it interfere with ham radio or doesn't it? It seems like this is a pretty easy question to answer, yet after millions of dollars of investigation we're still stuck. The BPL companies say there is no interference problem, and the hams say there is. What gives? Aren't there trials going on? Can't I just take a radio out there and see for myself if it interferes? I don't understand why there's all this debate when this is such an easy thing to determine empirically.
The power companies have started to admit that BPL does cause interference. What they are now debating is does it cause "Harmful Interference". I guess you can keep slicing the finer points of the law until it is completely shredded. Personally, I feel any interference is "harmful interference" but the BPL folks have their own definitions. | |
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 harold95Mr. Pants Excessive
join:2000-12-21
Central Falls, RI |
and...when you can't tune in your receiver because of all the crap noise that comes from improper shielding in cable, powerlines and some computers, then you'll understand why hams will make noise about this.
harold....kd1zx | |
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•••••••••••••••••••••• | TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
4 edits |
I was just thinking....of all of the fine old tube type console radios, Zenith, Phillips, Emerson, RCA, Slivertone, Dumont, etc. These beautiful pieces of furniture that play music would be rendered useless by BPL. Why should the the owners of these old radios have their pleasure in the use of these antiques ruined by a type 15 technology. Far more them a bunch of Hams would be impacted by BPL. | |
|  oroperPatriots Rule
join:2004-06-01
Beverly, MA |
oroper
Member
2004-Aug-24 11:39 am
I can bet you that........before the govt decides what needs to be done here, something has to happen and a bunch of people has to die before they get up off their fat asses.  | |
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Real Simple Fix: Shoot it...The great majority of radio innovation has and will continue to be driven in the Amateur Radio ranks. The cost to the nation in support of Ham Radio is miniscule in comparison to the benefits. Those of you who believe Ham Radio is a legacy model are sorely mis-informed. As far as emergency communications goes, pray that your sorry butts don't need help in a pinch. BPL is a technology that craters a large segment of effort in RF that is not costing the taxpayer big bux. BPL should be shot in the head. | |
| | BadHatHook'M Horns
Premium Member
join:2003-10-14
Rosa's Place |
BadHat
Premium Member
2004-Aug-24 4:52 pm
Re: Real Simple Fix: Shoot it...said by Andromeda451:
The great majority of radio innovation has and will continue to be driven in the Amateur Radio ranks. The cost to the nation in support of Ham Radio is miniscule in comparison to the benefits.
Apparently, some of these naysayers have never heard of Collins Radio, and how it came about. | |
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 firephotoTruth and reality matters
Premium Member
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA |
What happened to innovation?I can remember back about 10 years ago when I had my TAPR membership and packet radio was fun and APRS was the new thing on the block. Also around this time TAPR was making some big pushes for spread spectrum radio. They had kits and there was a few people in Arizona and California that had some data links running and they were also making a push for it's usefulness for voice communications. You know what the complaints were? Interference. From who? Other hams mostly.
BPL isn't the solution for everywhere but it is the only practical solution for a lot of rural areas. The ARRL doesn't care about this because they are set to do what their majority of members want and that is to crush BPL anywhere in this country. BPL is just RF going over a wire that never should radiate into space but it probably does but why aren't the hams, the guys who have in the past invovated radio to what we have today, helping to create a solution to the problem intead of just complaining about it whenever they get a chance.
This valley had television brought to it in the 1950's because my grandfather and his friends installed a translator station on top of the 5500' mtn that is here. They layed a power cable on the ground over the face 3500' below to tap into the power, they built and installed all the equipment and kept it running. They were hams.
Why doesn't the ARRL quit fighting people and try to work towards a solution to the problem besides just repeating over and over that it "causes interference"? I don't have an ARRL membership anymore and their sit in the corner and play protect my space game is getting old. Lose the lawyers and try asking your membership for some help towards a technical solution, I bet you'd be surprised. | |
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•••••••••••••• | BadHatHook'M Horns
Premium Member
join:2003-10-14
Rosa's Place |
BadHat
Premium Member
2004-Aug-24 5:17 pm
DisrespectulI personally think it is disrepectful, that whoever posted this article used the title "Radio Hobbyists on Warpath". You act like Amateur Radio is on the same lines as your grandmother's knitting group and they are just a bunch of trouble makers. Some of the technology on this website came from a result of the amateur radio operators. They are about communications, first, last, and always. Give me a break. If BPL interfered with SBC or Roadrunner in my neighborhood, does that mean I don't have a right to say something, because I don't have a business out of my home, and I am a "hobbyist"? Get a grip. | |
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•••• |  SuntopWolfrider Elf
Premium Member
join:2000-03-23
Fairfield, MT ·T-Mobile
Netgear R6400
Netgear WNR1000
Netgear WNDR3400
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Suntop
Premium Member
2004-Aug-25 2:11 am
YET another BPL debate. Will it ever die?I am sick and tired of the BPL debate, it wont work, WI-FI or FTTH will be th4 best solution, why the heck can't they see that or why can't they use frequencies above 2 GHz? NO NO NO it is the mass consumption of HF spectrum for the mass profits. WELCOME TO A CAPITALIST NATION called America. They don't care all they want is $$$$. It's ok BPL will eventually die. Every time they go and try it out it goes away. Hams are the only ones that complain. Simply because, there is no other complaints from other users of HF because these trials are done in areas where there is NO HAMS. They do this to try to implement it. We will see. Again I say BPL needs to die. Not because I am a HAM, where I live there will be no BPL, that don't mean there will be BPL noise all HF propagates. It don't matter it will fail where there is BPL there is someone to prove that it is NOT a good technology. | |
| armandh
join:2004-08-25
Chesterfield, MO |
armandh
Member
2004-Aug-25 11:14 pm
just doesn't go very far our electric utility remote reads the meters over the power lines but they need a repeater to send the data via UHF to a hub these repeaters are all over the place with their UHF antennas pointed to who knows where. It is the last bit of the wiring into ones home that they avoid. if the bells ran fiber to pole mounted nodes like my cable co does we would get T1s or T3s coming in to our homes | |
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