 rid0617
join:2003-07-20
Greer, SC | I can hear the ham operators crying now The ARRL who thinks they speak for every ham operator will be in a tizzy fit. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: I can hear the ham operators crying now Not necessarily. No one was expecting BPL to be abolished, nor would it be a reasonable expectation. The Report and Order hasn't been post as far as I can tell, but indications from the press are this is a far cry from what the FCC originally proposed in the original Notice of Inquiry. Part 15 emissions limits weren't raised as BPL proponents wanted. It appears the national database will be public, something carriers were fighting. Excluded frequency bands and geographical zones were put in as the NTIA requested. Measurement guidelines appear to have been clarified, although the details aren't out.
A total loss for HF spectrum users would have been BPL can emit a certain level and be considered non-interfering, regardless of what the interference victim claims. This ruling probably better defines the road ahead for BPL, but it doesn't really remove the potential for roadblocks. This green light is more like a blinking yellow with speed bumps, IMHO. | |
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Mellow
Premium
join:2001-11-16
Salisbury, MD | yay! This brings a whole new meaning to energy crisis. | |
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| subman87
Another day in the Brentwood
join:2000-11-24
Harrison, NY |  Re: yay!
ready to take off in my area of Westchester. | |
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| | subman87
Another day in the Brentwood
join:2000-11-24
Harrison, NY
| ISP invests AGREEMENTS WITH TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES AND UTILITY COMPANIES:
In 2004, EarthLink Joins Ambient Advisory Board and invested $500,000 in Ambient. EarthLink is exploring communications technologies like PLC (also known as broadband over power line (BPL) communications technology) as part of its efforts to extend the reach of its high-speed services. For approximately two years, EarthLink has worked with Ambient on its BPL pilot with Con Edison. EarthLink's participation on Ambient's Advisory Board strengthens this on-going relationship as well as increases the resources Ambient's management has available for direct counsel.
In 2003, Ambient announced a partnership with IDACOMM, Inc., a subsidiary of IDACORP, Inc. (IDA), to initiate pilot tests of Broadband over Power Line (BPL) technology in Idaho. Ambient is currently conducting field trials with Consolidated Edison Company of New York, Inc., (Con Edison) a subsidiary of Consolidated Edison, Inc. (NYSE: ED), and Southern Telecom Inc. (STI), a wholly owned subsidiary of Southern Company (NYSE:SO). CAM, a subsidiary of Enersis S.A., is also testing Ambient’s technology in their trial underway in Santiago, Chile. | |
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LoungeLizard2
join:2003-11-21
Vallejo, CA | Makes toast too ! Wow, I had no idea BPL was so great. Funny, I haven't heard of ONE successful test, or ANY of the numerous concerns about BPL addressed (and I mean from real tests, not the PR department's test-ad campaign). | |
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| hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
1 edit | Re: Makes toast too ! Actually Clyde Ohio, has the service going now. Reports from them show it actually works. www.clydeohio.org
EDIT-- Also what CG&E? | |
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brian1121
@rr.com | i covered a test set up by progress energy last spring that michael powell went to. it worked well for that particular neighborhood.
based on that, i would imagine there have been quite a few successful tests. | |
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| | David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA
 ·Be There
| Re: Makes toast too ! said by brian1121:
based on that, i would imagine there have been quite a few successful tests.
Yup, successfully proved that BPL is a gross polluter of the most environmentally sensitive part of the radio spectrum and now off the air.
Details are here;
»www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/10/04/1/?nc=1 | |
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tr6scott
join:2002-03-23
Oxford, MI |  humm.. any coincidence SBC anounces 100% coverage?
SBC CEO declares 100% dsl availability on the same day, as Power line communications are pushed forward. | |
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| hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH | Re: humm.. any coincidence SBC anounces 100% coverage? Thats funny...i tested my aunts line last night for DSL and it still says she cant get DSL. How does she place the order? thing is said on that part. | |
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Nighttime
join:2001-11-30
| Welcome to the train wreck fokes Can just see the lawsuits on this one! No not the ARRL but between the power companies vs BPL user vs users of the affected specrum. Yep this way to the egress fokes.
If you think your electric bill are high now.... Hang on! After this train wrecks. It wont be pretty. When this crashes some one going to pay and it usualy not them.
If you think you are getting high speed out in the sticks. Dont hold your breath. Like to see how you are going to force a company to string enough repeaters to remote places and still give any speed at reasonable cost. | |
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Sebastian
Premium
join:2000-12-22
New Haven, CT
| Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes who needs the radio? everything is just about digital, might as well use satellites, talk about near CD-Quality 
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BBR Gaming Server Admin.
gaming.broadbandreports.com | |
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AJ5TT
join:2003-08-17
Friendswood, TX | Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes In reference to data transmissions over free space, digital signal is just a mode that uses frequency spectrum like radios | |
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| | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD | So...you wouldn't moind having to pay for what once was free content.
Don't cry when that same content is no longer free and the prices go up. | |
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rob_in_chatt
Premium
join:2004-09-17
Chattanooga, TN
 ·Comcast
| what about the flaws in Microshaft LOL i can see it now on CNN...........local power grid compromised due to email worm spread, thousands left in the dark......i mean come on people........remote meter reading? what kinda shit is that? i think there has to be a line drawn at some time for everything.............whats next......conducting phone service via the water lines? it is amazing to me how fast people forget movies that are about total control.......granted, humans are far from perfect, but i assure you that computers aren't all that either..........how many times have each and every one of us cussed the very PC we type on and game on every day? makes me seriously sit here and think how microshaft is going to profit from this one so called technological advance.............anyone got any gripes or comments? post them please. | |
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Sebastian
Premium
join:2000-12-22
New Haven, CT
| Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes if they can make a car run off water i wouldn't mind if it had a few side-affects, like having a water shortage. let me guess, you would? if they can give me internet in every outlet i wouldn't care if it killed all mice in a one mile radius
sure, everything has affects. Drinking a pill to stop a headache might give you diarrhea and make you go bald. or taking viagra might make you hump odd objects, but guess what? people still take pills, and they're available to everyone. same applies to smoking cigars, the list can go on and on ..
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BBR Gaming Server Admin.
gaming.broadbandreports.com | |
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BluVeinThrobber
| Where have you been? Most Coops in Tennessee remotely read the meter. | |
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| | | RFJock
join:2004-01-13
Norfolk, VA | Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes By asking the customer to walk out and read it. That's what my co-op does. | |
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| w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| "Like to see how you are going to force a company to string enough repeaters to remote places and still give any speed at reasonable cost."
Exactly, and somewhere between point A and point B there will be a licensed spectrum user keying up legally, and causing the whole connection to crash. What trash!
Better get tuned up. | |
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n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes On the odd chance that they implemented it in my area (highly unlikely) then I would probably spend alot more time using PSK31 and RTTY. The 100% duty cycle would work wonders
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I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
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| | | Trivista
join:2003-11-11
Longview, TX | Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes And in about 3 months your behavior would be reclassified as a felony. I do not understand why hams that do not like this tech have to come off as complete and total aholes because they think it might effect them. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes said by Trivista  :
And in about 3 months your behavior would be reclassified as a felony. I do not understand why hams that do not like this tech have to come off as complete and total aholes because they think it might effect them.
That's the irony of BPL. It's based on Part 15 which is afforded absolutely no protection. Such action, regardless of ill intent or not, can never be classified as a crime. BPL has been built on such a weak foundation both technologically and legally that it can and will experience ingress interference and not be able to do a thing about it. Don't build your house out of straw and then complain when it rains.
It's not that we don't like the tech, we don't like the interference. | |
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| | | | | Trivista
join:2003-11-11
Longview, TX
| Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes And what you refuse to accept is that the laws can be changed and if you piss off enough people they will be changed to make your protest illegal.
Hams are going about this the wrong way. You sound like a bunch of babies and that isn't the way you sway the public (the people who vote) to be on your side. | |
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| | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by Trivista :
Hams are going about this the wrong way. You sound like a bunch of babies and that isn't the way you sway the public (the people who vote) to be on your side.
You must not hear all the crybabies here that want the following:
- 10MB/1MB minimum service
- ability to run servers
- broadband that costs $10/month
- broadband everywhere as a right
- ping times under 10ms
- choice of ISP's
etc. etc. etc.
Pot meet kettle. | |
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| | | | | | | stridr69
join:2003-05-19
San Luis Obispo, CA | Re: Welcome to the train wreck fokes heheheh..
Nice Take...
So true, too!
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| | | | w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| "And in about 3 months your behavior would be reclassified as a felony"
I highly doubt it sir, after all we are federally licensed to use said spectrum, and BPL is not. We can transmit as much power (up to our legal limit) in order to make reliable contacts under the current band conditions. Now the legal limit for us is 1500 watts DC, and we can have antennas with as much as 8-10 db of gain on those frequencies. This equates to an effective radiated power of around 15,000 watts right in the middle of the BPL spectrum. It's time now to start talking about the interference BPL will receive, not what it creates. We all know that. Being under part 15 rules, BPL will have no recourse regarding interference it receives, especially from a licensed service. But many do not know the hidden facts, all they know is what the marketers and politicians tell them and they believe it and blow off the engineers who know what will really happen! No wonder this country is in shambles. I for one will be damned if I will trash my hobby of 35 years and all my equipment collected and maintained over those years just for a bunch of know nothing bitheads who think they can just steamroll us off the airwaves just so they can play games and download porn faster. If you don't have broadband where you live - move. It's that simple. | |
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See 7 replies to this post |
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AJ5TT
join:2003-08-17
Friendswood, TX | DAldredge
Think you have it backwards. Interference to licensed users is punishable by a fine or jail if the offender continues to operate. BPL is not a licensed service of the spectrum. | |
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See 11 replies to this post |
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| | | TruthConcern
join:2004-09-19
Kennett Square, PA
|  And the wreck is surrounded by a hacker's fielday!
Methinks the hackers' field day is about to commence….
Do I have my calendar right; this is not some perverse April-fools stunt about the FCC, is it?
I've previously predicted on these pages that hackers and the hacking fraternity will move down from the higher software OSI layers to the lower ones, 2 and 3, where hardware rules the day.
Hackers will see BPL / PLC as a new challenge; every power outlet is now a potential access site for a hacker with a "Tandy- $1-Special" jammer--contrived from a dollar's worth of components from any electronics store. Jamming may become the norm and chaos might reign. Soon I'd expect we'll see articles on WAREZ sites about how to make the most cost effective jamming device together with lots of competitive circuits with each expounding the virtues of how effective its jamming is.
In the meantime, I'd suggest the rest of us brush up on the law to see what provisions it offers to sue the commissioners, FCC or its staff, the power utilities or their engineering consultants for negligence. Let's be blunt about it, the FCC's actions (and those who have lobbied it) are nothing more than irresponsible and negligent and the law ought to take its retribution--even if it takes a decade or more to do so.
Eventually, this BPL 'disaster' will turn into a real disaster, and when it does then we'd ought to be ready to sue those responsible. Remember, any disaster resulting from the consequences of introducing BPL is definitely no force majeure, as these FCC commissioners have been told time and time again about the major problems of introducing BPL services, and yet they've been nothing but fully complicit in its introduction.
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp | HAH-HA!
de KB6JAW | |
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Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ | Mr. BPL it's time to meet Mr. Kilowatt.
What's ironic is that the electric company will profit from my high electric bills instead of the mysteriously failing BPL. | |
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| | | TruthConcern
join:2004-09-19
Kennett Square, PA
|  Civil Disobedience
Mind you, I can't blame your sentiments when this FCC decision on BPL is clearly an outstanding example of failed governance by the truly incompetent.
Actions of this sort aren't normally condoned. However, before anyone resorts to them may I suggest you read Henry David Thoreau's 1849 essay on Civil Disobedience.
There's a copy here:
»www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/civ.dis.html.
Funny, but this document seems to have a timelessness about it, moreover, it seems more relevant today than when I first read it many years ago.
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sabersaw
Premium
join:2001-08-21
Dayton, OH
| said by w2co :
"Like to see how you are going to force a company to string enough repeaters to remote places and still give any speed at reasonable cost."
Exactly, and somewhere between point A and point B there will be a licensed spectrum user keying up legally, and causing the whole connection to crash. What trash!
Better get tuned up.
nice collins gear! let em glow! | |
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rollobancher
join:2003-04-11
Salinas, CA | YES !
HA. | |
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| w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| Re: YES ! You see this? I don't think you will be able to get through it. | |
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n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY | Re: YES ! Nice! | |
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| | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| Re: YES ! said by wolfox :
BPL is a smoke and mirror dog and pony show... Time will reveal all.
EXACTLY! BPL is the FCC poster child for "broadband competition". They are pushing just hard enough to keep BPL looking like a viable alternative until their deregulation of the telecom industry is complete. | |
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wallyghs
Who Needs Sanity?
join:2001-09-13
Fairborn, OH
| I wonder I wonder if this will be deployed in areas where a military installation is a part of the local power grid? For example, WPAFB uses the public power grid with backup coal plants for use during public grid failures. I highly doubt the military wants this sort of crap running through the grid that is part of a military installation. I'm sure any interference would be intolerable... Hmmmmm..
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Do you worry me? I do. | |
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lupinia
Premium
join:2004-08-24
Harrisonburg, VA | Re: I wonder I live near a military radio observatory (Sugar Grove, WV), and they won't allow any signals to cross the mountain into their field of view, the whole area is a quiet zone. So, the chances of BPL coming here are slim to nonexistant. | |
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AJ5TT
join:2003-08-17
Friendswood, TX | New ICON Looks like BBR will need to create a new ICON for their "Recent Reviews.." section on the home page. | |
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richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith | I wonder... What will happen to local BPL when I use my low band radio? | |
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| w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO | Re: I wonder... | |
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MRNVGVUP
join:2003-04-12
Sharon, PA | BPL! Oh, it's happening! BPL!
Two years I have been on the podium for this technology... here we go!
Wolf!
peace | |
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GemSnake
Premium
join:2000-10-19
3rd layer
clubs:  | DoS? Well, if BPL interferes with radios, I wonder if one could use radios to interfere with BPL...
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"In a fight between you and the world, bet on the world." - Franz Kafka | |
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| w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO
| Re: DoS? "Well, if BPL interferes with radios, I wonder if one could use radios to interfere with BPL"
Absolutely, read the above posts, and read read read all the posts from the past year and a half. You can also visit the ARRL webpage, there is plenty of info about this subject. See this is just one area that the marketers will not tell you. Even the CBer (who is unlicensed) down the street will Legally take down your BPL internet connection. | |
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JeedaiKnight
0verthinking
Premium
join:2002-03-15
Portland, OR
| hopefully this will expand to "the sticks" i'm no electricity nerd or anything, but i can tell you i would be sooo happy if BPL went out in our area. If we could get anything close to hsi, it would be awesome. Since we don't even have a decent 56k connection (we connect at a miserable 24k) ANYTHING would be better. (except for sattelite, that$@)* is expensive) I hope BPL brings us a decent connection. Its almost not worth having the internet at 24k.
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"Work is the scourge of the drinking classes." - Oscar Wilde - George W. Bush 2004 | |
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Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ | Re: hopefully this will expand to "the sticks" You're freakin' kiddin' me right?
Mark my words - DSL will reach the sticks way before BPL does. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: hopefully this will expand to "the sticks" said by Eat Me :
You're freakin' kiddin' me right?
Mark my words - DSL will reach the sticks way before BPL does.
I just got a notice from Verizon yesterday that I can now get DSL. I live in the sticks. I've had cable for five years now by some act of God. I know there's folks in downtown Megalopolis that can't get DSL or cable, but if they can get it to me, they can get it to anyone.
I think this BPL ruling may actually be BPL's downfall. It awoke the sleeping giants like SBC. The race BPL was in just got worse. The industry would have done better by keeping quiet. Powell put a target on them, for both competitors and radio spectrum users. | |
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Stumbles
join:2002-12-17
Port Saint Lucie, FL | Pass the juice.. to securing the country's power-grid
Alright, I have heard BPL is the cure-all of end-alls to be-all but how can it secure the power-grid? | |
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jimbo2150
join:2004-05-10
Youngstown, OH
| BPL Increase As another put it... SBC announced 100% coverage on the same day... interesting and probably not a coincidence.
They see BPL as taking away customers (especially those with SBC phone but no DSL available).
If it causes so much interference why dont they use some sort of insulation on the wires? Wouldnt that cut down or elimiate interference... hell, just go out and wrap them all in aluminum foil! lol
What speeds can BPL get to and how far can it go? Is it like DSL were it fades after X feet or miles? | |
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zoom314
Superman
Premium
join:2001-04-30
Yermo, CA
| Re: BPL Increase said by jimbo2150 :
If it causes so much interference why dont they use some sort of insulation on the wires? Wouldnt that cut down or elimiate interference... hell, just go out and wrap them all in aluminum foil! lol
Insulation If It's plastic would possibly melt as that's not 110vac or even 220vac. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: BPL Increase said by zoom314 :
said by jimbo2150 :
If it causes so much interference why dont they use some sort of insulation on the wires? Wouldnt that cut down or elimiate interference... hell, just go out and wrap them all in aluminum foil! lol
Insulation If It's plastic would possibly melt as that's not 110vac or even 220vac.
High voltage on a line won't cause the insulation to melt under normal circumstances. There are insulated MV lines in use in places.
Insulation would allow radio waves to pass through. Shielding would prevent BPL signals from leaking out, but this would be expensive to implement. There already is a shielded medium in use now on poles carrying high speed data. It's called Cable. | |
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PlagueX1
Plague
join:2004-08-27
Twining, MI
| comeon...... Whats up with all of you people saying that BPL is a bad idea. I think BPL is a very good idea to make the possibility of broadband to everyone. Currently i used satellite internet and im excited about the idea of BPL. Maybe with BPL i'll be able to play games that i've played with dialup, and games i wasn't able to play. The technology is a need technology to provide high speed to everyone who wants it. People have coped with the technologys that we have today, so we can cope with BPL.
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»techvis.hyperboards.comDW6000,Re···.25ghz,3 computer wireless LAN | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| Show me the money BPL is crap, plain and simple. It has serious technological difficulties that can't be overcome. This has been shown in real trials around the world.
The people behind BPL start-ups have one goal in mind, make money and get out. They know they can (legally) scam people into investing in this technology. Legally, now that the FCC has caved in and given them permission. They will get venture capital, start operations, pay themselves mega-bucks, and then after racking up millions in debt, when things 'suddenly' aren't working out, and they aren't signing up customers at the rates they expected, they will close down. This will happen even faster if BPL starts interfering with the radio systems of public services, including amateur radio. Oh - you didn't know ham radio is identified as a crucial emergency radio service?
Just go visit Florida. Lots of good your BPL would have done for you when you don't have electricity or telephone service after the fourth hurricane. Hams were on the air providing emergency communications for public agencies & private parties alike. Time & time again ham radio has been praised by public agencies because of the great benefits provided during disasters. Because of this, no matter how hard some of you jokers think 'laws will be changed' - they won't. And were not talking just ham radio here - we are talking about interference with all public emergency radio systems.
Some of you jokers can rail at the hams all you want, but they are right, technically & legally. Many laws have been attempted to be passed against amateur radio operators - all have failed. For example, should a ham decide he wants to put up a 200' radio tower in his backyard in the middle of the suburbs, even a law at the state level, can not interfere with his right to do so. This has been proven time and time again in hundreds of courts of laws. Only federal regulations can do so. And the federal government leaves this up to the FCC who sides with the hams.
BPL should stand for: 'Bigger Pay for Lawyers'. Keep dreaming; you'll see fiber arrive at your home before any decent service ever comes out of BPL. | |
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PlagueX1
Plague
join:2004-08-27
Twining, MI
| What is it you don't understand? About the person who was talking about global worming. We are dealing with global warming every day. Their creating filters to reduce the pollution output for industries. I'll start giving not wanting BPL when the Cable and DSL providers start caring more about the rural areas other then just wanting money in the urban areas. The only ones that are thinking more about the rural areas are satellite and the local wireless companys.
When SBC said they would have 100% availability they were just getting worred about BPL competition. BPL may have negititive spectrum interferance but atleast there are thinking more about the rural areas. | |
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| David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA
·Be There
| Re: What is it you don't understand? said by PlagueX1 :
I'll start giving not wanting BPL when the Cable and DSL providers start caring more about the rural areas other then just wanting money in the urban areas. The only ones that are thinking more about the rural areas are satellite and the local wireless companys.
When SBC said they would have 100% availability they were just getting worred about BPL competition. BPL may have negititive spectrum interferance but atleast there are thinking more about the rural areas.
BPL is the worst choice for rural areas
The totally bogus claim that BPL is suitable choice for rural deployment is one of the many lies along with “no interference” propagated by the BPL cretins. The BPL strategy is to get the FCC to ignore the high levels of interference / spectrum pollution as the FCC wants to get broadband to communities that don’t have it
In reality, if the BPL companies succeed, they will abandon the rural areas and immediately focus on the wealthy suburban markets like Manhattan that are profitable and already have cable and DSL.
Check the numbers - DSL can work out to about ~ 16,000 feet from the central office. BPL can only go 2,000 feet from the BPL equivalent of a DSLAM, then it needs an expensive repeater.
However the math is worked, there is no way the power companies can implement this vast array of expensive equipment in rural areas with any hope of meeting the projected pricing.
The existing DSL broadband technology is proven and could be provided to almost everyone who has a phone, the barriers are political (and FCC failure) not technical. The solution to universal broadband lies in ensuring the phone companies serve all of their customers equally. BPL is a broken legacy technology that is a pure distraction to the objective of universal broadband. | |
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FCC Green Lights BPL
No one is taking Vioxx anymore.
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