The Third Broadband Pipe

Powell still believes in it. When you have your head so far up your a$$ and are not in touch with reality, what do you expect??

agreed. Michael Powell is not part of the "reality-based" community. I'm sure he also still believes Saddam had WMDs.

I said this before and I'll say it again: BPL is Powell's "potemkin village" for broadband competition. He is hailing BPL as the "third leg" of broadband competition so people won't look so hard at the fact that the FCC's policies have all but given us a telco-cable duopoly. Before MP: U.S. third in the world; After MP: U.S. 13th in the world.

for those of you not sure what a potemkin village is, here are a few definitions; you be the judge if the shoe fits:

a pretentiously showy or imposing façade intended to mask or divert attention from an embarrassing or shabby fact or condition.

Something that appears elaborate and impressive but in actual fact lacks substance

It's been nice having you lead the FCC Jabba the Powell...NOT!!! Enjoy unplugging your ever expanding fat head from your fat ass ... on your own time and not the taxpayers. Drop his oompa loompa(?) butt in Iraq and make your daddy proud! Find some nice aluminum cylinders to make WMDs ... or at least to serve as cake molds for ya!

Where is Howard Stern when you need him.

He already laid into him saying how he was fined for sexually explicit talk that was also done by Oprah Winfrey and she wasn't fined. Powell got owned BIG TIME!

Same guy that wants tv to switch over to HDTV by 2006 so they can sell the current tv freqs for big bucks.

I think Powell is motivated more by the the 1 million plus per year vacation & party perks showered on him, his family and the other 4 commissioners than anything so far in the future as 2006. This FCC sure has whored itself out to corporate interests to a radical extent. Can you say FUBAR?

Need I say more.

that was done on bill kennard's watch (unless i totally mangled the guys name)

That we have a problem here. Not just with BPL itself, as we have seen in testing by the ARRL & other ham radio operators, testing agencies and services and it's international record of failures, that BPL makes a mess of radio spectrum & interferes with a lot of services.

That's only 1 problem. When BPL was first brought up, to groups embraced it, IMHO. First - the rural users, who saw it as a way to get broadband [I feel for you guys, I have DSL & if it goes down and I have to use dial-up, it's murder] and second - the power companies, who saw this as another source of revenue.
Now, it's been shown that BPL is not as good as it sounds for rural use, but the power companies have spent so much investing in BPL (PR, studies) that they can't just hang up on it. That would be financially unsound, some people might lose jobs and it would overall give the power companies a bad image as if they didn't know what they are doing. And that's the last thing they want - bad PR!

It's impossible now, but BPL should quietly slip away. The FCC [and politicians] should have checked this out a long time before the industry pushed it. And they were wimps, they should have just said 'NO', but they have evaded the issue by saying that 'there will be a publicly available database' for interference issues to be resolved. I wonder how long it will take then to see that the amount of interference cancels out any benefits. And by that time, more money will have been invested that will go down the drain.

My $.03

At looking at your location. If you are into any radio
at all. Shortwave or amateur. Be glad to know.

CON EDISON will be "trying out" BPL for the "RURAL"
customers in N.Y.C.

Every reporter knows from WATERGATE. Follow the money!

I am in no better position living on long island. Sure
hope LIPA doesn't get any BRIGHT IDEAS.

As a matter of fact, I am a Ham Radio operator. I thought Con Ed was supposed to start their test Oct 1. Haven't heard a peep from anyone, have been wondering.

Hey, being an ex-Long Islander myself - *what happened to LILCO?*

They are called LIPA now (Long Island Power Association)

"some people might lose jobs"

Darn right! Heads will roll over this crappy technology and all the money that was and will be wasted trying to get this dead dog to work. Fact is - it will never work the way they are saying it will, and heads will roll period. That's what they get for mixing politics with physics. I love it when lawyers try to sound technical, it's like placing a chicken in a den of pitt bulls.

From ARRL's editorial: "There is nothing new about sending radio signals over power lines; it’s been done for decades, within rational limits that until now have kept radio interference from being an issue. There is nothing old about Amateur Radio technology; we are on the leading edge in introducing digital applications to the HF environment."

So why not share with the general public what these alternative solutions are across the power lines instead of just preaching to the choir (mainly yourselves)? Maybe HAMs just might get some support if they were to share info with non-HAMs instead of just assuming everyone knows the info HAMs do.

I can say too that I'm not a proponent of BPL in any way, fashion, etc., but it does anger me when everyone wants to nix ideas, but nobody will come up with a workable alternative. If I read this editorial right, it sounds like the alternatives have been there ... But None of the HAMs have told or proposed anything to anybody except to, maybe, the FCC ... who isn't about to tell the rest of the world anything. Come on HAMs, share your knowledge and expertise with the public!

Have you been reading any of these BPL threads?

We have made many suggestions, including microwave "G-line" BPL, wireless, fiber via existing utility right-of-ways, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Additionally, the ARRL as well as individual hams (including hams employed by utilities) have been working with utilities and other users of HF to resolve these problems, but people are too busy making this out to be a "Hams vs BPL" argument to notice.

Bottom line, it is not our responsibility to provide free, workable solutions for every boneheaded corporate idea that comes down the pike. The burden is on the utilities to provide services that don't require engineering miracles and don't needlessly interfere with other completely unrelated services, period.

If you are angered by people like me not bending over backwards to protect someone else's profit margins, then, well, I can't help.

Your response shows that you have not done your research- have not read the multitude of clearly written posts on BBR answering your questions (which instead are written more like finger-pointing attacks), or clearly read any of the informative responses to your previous posts.

Very weak and extremely narrow-banded control signals can and have been sent over power lines without interference. BPL is a VERY BROAD, higher powered technology.

It's like asking, "since you can drive a Ferrari 140 mile an hour on the Autobaun, why won't those drivers or car manufacturers figure out how I can drive my car at 140 miles per hour down my residential street". It is an order of magnitude that makes both scenarios incompatible.

Would you trust the gas company running their gas to your house using a garden water hose? I wouldn't- too leaky, too insecure and not what the water hose was designed to carry. You would expect nothing less than the proper conduit. Well, its the same issue with anyone who may be affected or knows enough to be concerned about the use of electric lines to transfer broadband signals.

Again, as I have responded to you before...and please take the time to accept this point-
Ham Radio operators, radio enthusiasts, scientists, technicians, etc. are NOT, and let me clear that up...NOT against broadband. They/we/I LOVE broadband. They/we/I would LOVE for you to have it too...

...however...

the specific method of trying to make power lines become the path for broadband is a lousy idea because it is VERY RF polluting. It is being entertained ONLY because the power companies see this as the only way that they can try to grab a piece of the broadband pie...period!

Ham Radio operators have offered their expertise, experiences, concerns, etc., all of which should help evaluate the technology. SO, there is ham radio help. Unfortunately, what is uncovered does not support the dreams of the power companies, so they hope that their lawyers can somehow draft statements that will nullify or ignore the law of physics. Unfortunately for them, their law degree or their clients' money cannot buy out the laws of physics. If you get a prescription drug, you get to see the side-effects and be allowed to determine if a pre-existing condition, allergy, etc. may make it an undesirable choice. The power companies are doing their PR and painting a rosy picture, but leave out a lot of the important facts. Because others are honest and concerned enough to bring these facts to the table, you shake your finger at them like they are evil or party-poopers.

From your previous posts, you seem to have your mind made up and take a myopic view of broadband over POWER LINES, widely critical of anyone who might stray from your perceptions. The back-and-forth is great, but is wasted if you don't want to accept the facts.

(Without any sarcasm intended) I hope that you and anyone who wants it, is able to get broadband. I hope that you and anyone else that wants it will get it as soon as possible and that it is quick and competitively priced. I don't mind if whatever broadband you or anyone else gets is even faster than mine. Yet, broadband over POWER LINES is bad technology that (due to the laws of physics - radio wave propagation) can do severe harm to various radio services (not just Ham Radio).

Focusing on proper mediums and methods to provide broadband is the key. The technology is so dirty that the Hams will not be able to suggest how to make it work properly. It is a flawed method, period. Cable television works on ham bands and no one complains, since the cable TV system was designed from the ground up to be what it is- so it can coexist rather than attack radio services. Power lines were not designed for broadband. Unless they are all yanked and replaced, they won't behave nicely.

If you truly wish to understand what is at stake here, then read the enormous amount of information that is available. Go to www.gobpl.com . Please read with an open mind, and stop trying to kill the messenger because the facts don't meet your fancy.

Be well,
Rob

Read what I wrote beforehand.

»Re: As Previous Posts show...

During the NC trials, when the interference was not being mitigated easily, the utility stopped working with the HAMS and said there was no problem. We tried to offer solutions but when the cost became too much, they cried and took their toys and went home.

Yeah that I believe is when the lawyers started to redefine what interference really is. The chicken is placed in the den of pitt bulls and what do you get? Mincemeat!
Interference is interference - period. Part 15 rules state that if any part15 device causes interference to a licensed user of said spectrum, it must cease operation at once.
It also states that if unwanted interference is received by a part15 device from a licensed user of said spectrum, that it must accept such interference with no recourse..
These rules I don't believe were or will be changed.

Here's a non-HF polluting BPL »www.corridor.biz/ . Their CTO is a ham, btw

The digital HF advances by hams are apples and oranges compared with BPL. Hams and others use the properties of the HF radio spectrum to send voice and data around the world. BPL HF radio emissions are not part of the core functionality of BPL, but rather an unnecessary side effect. The HF spectrum is not suited for broadband wireless like 2 Ghz or 5.8 Ghz is. The goal is mainly reliable, low data rate transmission over long distances in changing propagation conditions. Hundreds more Mhz of spectrum are available in the microwave bands specifically set aside for broadband data. This is one reason the Corridor product has so much potential.

Conventional BPL could probably be made to work if they stayed above 30 Mhz, reduced power levels to the 0dbuV/m at 10m level proposed by the ARRL, and/or notched out all amateur and shortwave bands. No BPL manufacturers appear to want to do this, instead opting to make it miserable for licensed services.

His Royal Assholyness has stated:

"We similarly do not find that Amateur Radio frequencies warrant the special protection afforded frequencies reserved for international aeronautical and maritime safety operations," the Commission said.
"While we recognize that amateurs may on occasion assist in
providing emergency communications," the FCC added. It described typical amateur operations as "routine communications and hobby activities."

Thanks for nothing, All I can say is eat Sh*t and go bark at the moon. Careful relocation of antennas My ass are you going to pay for moving a 50 foot tower, I don't think so, Good faith RF mitigating... bullsh*t these BPL assholes will stone wall, ignore, and brush off any complaints. I have to put up with interference from a device that is suppose to operate under type 15 rule. I can see the hand writing on the wall any complaint will be treated with contempt, and if we interfere with a BPL installation we will have to notch our signals.

The only good thing I can see is the economics are all wrong.
Utility companies will see, indeed most do already, it will be very difficult to make any money. They will be in direct competition with established Broadband providers, these providers will be able to undercut any price the BPL ISP will charge.

I caught that statement, too. It really goes to show just how technically inept the FCC is, and especially the author of the R&O in particular. I'd like to conduct an experiment with an RF source operating at Part 15 limits, and locate it around the neighborhood and take measurements to simulate their theory that you can relocate antenna to avoid BPL and show how stupid of a comment it is. I mean, come on, with BPL you've got an RF source 30 feet off the ground and you're within two or three wavelengths of the victim antenna. The antenna pattern characteristics aren't even formed yet at such a close vicinity. The FCC would have half a case for their lame statement if everyone had 50 acre lots.

With the FCC's convoluted logic, it should be legal to play music using loudspeakers on top of your house all night. Your neighbors can shut their windows to avoid the noise.

I have a Ham friend down here that has built a 80 meter beam in an interesting way. He has two closely spaced hills on his land, and what he did was place full wave 80 meter dipoles on each hill. It just so happened the top of these hills are spaced to make a good wide spaced two element beam for 80 he has it fixed so he can switch the two antennas between being a reflector and the active element. His signal on 80 is like the voice of God in the two directions he can shoot. wonder how far away he can pick up a BPL signal.

What I find interesting is not much if any talk has been expressed about the inherent lack of security a BPL installation has. Organization with the resources of the NSA can do this now with present communications systems world wide. I am talking about crooks recording and breaking the encryption of transaction over a BPL system.
If you can hear the tweedle-de-deedle on a receiver you can hook decoders into it and listen in. Credit cards, online banking, etc would be fair game.

In theory yes, but it's not very practical. It's likely most of these systems are using encryption at layer 2, so it would be a pain to decrypt. And even so, the Internet is a hostile network. It's expected that packets can be sniffed anywhere along the way, regardless of BPL. Any critical applications use higher level encryption like SSL. So, I don't think packet sniffing a BPL network is a big issue.

The skeleton in the closet is ingress interference susceptibility, IMO.

Yes but the reciever must also have a very wide front end bandwidth to capture all the data correctly. But I sure wouldn't want to do any type of account transactions on a system such as BPL where all data is widely radiated to any radio receiver within 3/4 mile. Even though encripted, the data would be capturable by anyone with the proper equipment. Then they could work on it in their leisure time.