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Verizon Ban Could Cripple Philly Wi-Fi
Proposed law bans muni operations in PA
A Verizon supported bill could terminate Philadelphia's citywide Wi-Fi effort, as it would ban community run broadband operations in the state. The bill, which Verizon recently applauded without mentioning their history of failed promises in the state, is primarily an incentive laden Verizon wish-list, according to consumer advocates. Those same advocates tried to pass more consumer friendly legislation, but were ultimately shoved aside.
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keyboard5684
Sam
join:2001-08-01
Pittsburgh, PA

keyboard5684

Member

Cannot read it...

I hate the articles I have to sign up for service to read. Why start a forum based on that?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: Cannot read it...

Should be fixed now?

enOehT
Premium Member
join:2003-05-17
Easton, PA

1 edit

enOehT

Premium Member

Re: Cannot read it...

Login: yourlosingreaders@philly.com Password: verystupid
quote:
Posted on Thu, Nov. 18, 2004

Pa. may block city 'Wi-Fi' plan, backers say

By Akweli Parker

Inquirer Staff Writer

Supporters of Philadelphia's plan to provide wireless Internet access blasted a bill in the state General Assembly last night that they said threatened the city's proposal.

House Bill 30, which needs only Senate approval before being sent to Gov. Rendell, contains a clause forbidding governments from providing fast Internet services - including wireless fidelity, or "Wi-Fi," access - that competes with private services such as Verizon Communications Inc.'s DSL and Comcast Corp.'s cable modem.

This fall, Mayor Street said his administration would look at providing Wi-Fi access citywide at little or no charge.

At a Wi-Fi Forum organized by Philadelphia nonprofit Media Tank last night, speakers told the audience to complain to legislators about the restriction.

"Your involvement as citizens is crucial; as citizens, you don't have to put up with that," said Harold Feld, associate director of the Media Access Project in Washington.

Verizon spokesman Harry Mitchell didn't see what all the fuss was about.

"This legislation and that facet of the legislation has been there for a year," he said in a telephone interview. "House Bill 30 represents a negotiation among several parties."

A Comcast spokeswoman said the company did not view Philadelphia's plan as a threat, as Comcast's cable-modem service includes add-ons such as video e-mail and exclusive content.

Feld and other speakers portrayed government-sponsored Wi-Fi as a cheap, simple way to provide citizens Internet access where the private sector either does not, or does so at unaffordable prices.

"The private sector is doing what the private sector always did, which is serve rich people," said Mark Cooper, research director for Washington-based Consumer Federation of America.

Philadelphia's Wi-Fi venture is reminiscent of cities that long ago established water and electric systems to serve their poorest citizens when private firms failed to step up, Cooper said.

"We see this as a fundamental public function," he said of broadband access.

The contested bill is the proposed replacement for the state's far-reaching telecommunications law that was created 10 years ago and expired in December. Both the old and the new versions define the rules for competition among telephone providers and established a time line for deploying fast Internet service, or broadband, throughout the state.

Verizon's Mitchell said: "There is a lot of good stuff in this bill, good stuff for Pennsylvania," including a $42 million technology fund for schools, and a 30 percent discount on high-speed Internet service for schools.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd

Premium Member

Re: Cannot read it...

the country needs a broadband versions of the TVA imo, but it wont happen.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David to keyboard5684

Premium Member

to keyboard5684
Someone had a link to a website that allowed you to get a username and password, without registering.

I forget who posted it or where... hopefully the person will post again..

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

2 recommendations

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: Cannot read it...

»www.bugmenot.com/

Bug me not...

But I believe I fixed the link.

rtcpenguin
Premium Member
join:2001-01-21
Fairfax, VA

rtcpenguin

Premium Member

Re: Cannot read it...

said by Karl Bode:

»www.bugmenot.com/

Bug me not...

But I believe I fixed the link.
Sweet link karl
jsouth
Jsouth
join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS

jsouth to keyboard5684

Member

to keyboard5684
Your the only one. I can read it just fine without signing up for anything. Anyway this is just an example of corporate greed. I hope the lawmakers don't pass this bill.

keyboard5684
Sam
join:2001-08-01
Pittsburgh, PA

keyboard5684

Member

Re: Cannot read it...

I think they fixed the link after I posted...

Anyway, now that I can read it, I do not think governments should be able to set up broadband networks that are extremely cheap because they are funded by tax payers.

Everyone in a city uses water, it makes sense to have local government run that. Less than 40% of people have broadband and I think the last numbers I looked at were 70% do not even want any internet access!!

So my point is the government should not be bringing in cheaper services than the current providers already have. Market driven prices are market driven prices and introducing government (again, tax payers) into the picture basically throws the idea out the window.

Why not start government controlled grocery stores that are cheaper? Maybe car sales? Of course not. Generally the only think the government used to get into were things that were not profitable, where the only people that would pay for it was tax payers. This includes roads, street lights and other things that really do not rake in profit.
tbone106
join:2004-02-03
Lake Zurich, IL

tbone106

Member

Re: Cannot read it...

The way I see it, cities needs to generate income -- we all know they got too fat in the '90s, so way not resale access?

Or they could just say, f-it, and raise taxes or better yet, lay off police, fire, teachers, their brother in-laws, wifes, girl friends, etc.

Don't lose sleep over it, Comcast and everyone else selling access is making a small mint.

needforspeed59
Cruise Ship Just Passing Through
join:2001-05-02
La Place, LA

1 recommendation

needforspeed59 to keyboard5684

Member

to keyboard5684
Couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with you 100% Why not state run grocery stores? Can you say, "USSR"? LOL! It's a slippery slope when governments think they can take taxpayer money and run private enterprise (greedy corps to some of you) out of business. Glad I live in a Red state where conservative heads prevail.

bluestateofmind
@phl1.dsl.speakeasy.n

1 recommendation

bluestateofmind

Anon

Re: Cannot read it...

Okay, so how about we privatize those fire departments and police stations then? I'm sure that quality Verizon-type customer service would be just wonderful.

"For grease fires, press 1. For electrical fires, press 2. For gasoline fires, press 3...If you suspect arson, press 4. For other life-threatening emergencies, press 5. If you don't know the type of fire you are being burned by, please press 6."

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6

Premium Member

Re: Cannot read it...

said by bluestateofmind:

Okay, so how about we privatize those fire departments and police stations then? I'm sure that quality Verizon-type customer service would be just wonderful.

"For grease fires, press 1. For electrical fires, press 2. For gasoline fires, press 3...If you suspect arson, press 4. For other life-threatening emergencies, press 5. If you don't know the type of fire you are being burned by, please press 6."
"For all other fires, please hold and the first available Customer Service Representative will be with you as soon as possible."

"While you are waiting, please make sure that you have your 24 digit alphanumeric account number ready, along with a copy of your most recent paid subscription receipt."

"Thanks for calling Privatized Fire Services, and remember, we value your patronage and look forward to serving you long into the future."

After this you hear a click, and dial-tone....

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102 to keyboard5684

Premium Member

to keyboard5684
said by keyboard5684:

Generally the only think the government used to get into were things that were not profitable ... This includes roads, street lights and other things that really do not rake in profit.
You cannot accurately say that roads in Pennsylvania do not make a profit. All of PennDOT's money comes from gas taxes, permit fees and registration fees. None of it comes from the Commonwealth. If you live in Pennsylvania and do not drive, none of your money goes to pay for state highways. The state highway system, along with the Pennsylvania Turnpike, each pay for themselves.

keyboard5684
Sam
join:2001-08-01
Pittsburgh, PA

keyboard5684

Member

Re: Cannot read it...

I was thinking more of borough/city roads.
VirtualLarry
Premium Member
join:2003-08-01

VirtualLarry to keyboard5684

Premium Member

to keyboard5684
You don't consider data-communications networks as part of the necessary infrastructure of a modern, civilized, society? What if things like exercising your civic duty, move entirely on-line? (Hopefully that will never happen, but it's possible.)

What about the telephone networks, or the postal mail network?

Should only 40% of society have access to those?

One of the only reasons that the telco POTS network has such widespread coverage, is that gov't regulations *mandate* that.

Why should the newly-emergent datacomms networks be any different?
anon2k2
join:2004-04-17
Tacoma, WA

anon2k2 to keyboard5684

Member

to keyboard5684
I am as conservative as anyone out there (at least as far as economic policies are concerned) but I do think that telecom services are "public goods" in the strict economic definition, and should be treated as such.

I think you can argue they are at least as much a public good as K-12 education, and most people seem to think that public funding of education is OK.

However, a practice that I find horrific, especially in the supposed free market, is that any company would choose support laws that expressly reduce competition and enforce those companies' ability to monopolize and provide crappy service.

And as I recall from economics 101, the overall economic loss from the inefficiency of monopoly is pretty large too.

wireless plays a-foo
@optonline.net

wireless plays a-foo to keyboard5684

Anon

to keyboard5684
Verizon really doesn't want wireless community wi-fi, people might get the bright idea they don't need those expensive cell phones anymore. Verizon still needs millions more-- when they collect all those 'taxes and surcharges' it goes into their accounts where they make investments while they find every loophole to delay paying their taxes to municipalities and gov't agencies so they can have the best advantage tax wise, did I mention they pay taxes like an unemployed worker...
:=-)
Well if philly can't be known for wireless, they can add fiber platters to the philly cheesesteak!! and make
it a MUNI!

Jim Slim
Kenya's Finest
Premium Member
join:2002-01-12
Union, NJ

Jim Slim

Premium Member

God dam

I can't imagine how this bill would pass...what harm could community run broadband do?

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

GOOD!

The last thing the city of Philadelphia should be doing is wasting our money on something as silly as this. Maybe they should be putting that money towards funding SEPTA, fixing crappy schools, hiring more cops and not closing down fire stations instead.

If people want Internet access that bad, they can always buy it from Comcast or Verizon, its not like the city isn't wired for broadband already.

staticx57
join:2002-01-24
Toms River, NJ

staticx57

Member

Re: GOOD!

Which one do you work for, Verizon or Comcast?

Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state

Qumahlin

MVM

Re: GOOD!

Why is it people must assume that if you side with corporations that you must work for who you are siding for...I mean god forbid he has a point about the money being better spent elsewhere for REAL needs.

I'm all for having wi-fi throughout the city...but the fact is the city has PLENTY of problems that need fixing before moving out to frivilous endeavors such as this.

staticx57
join:2002-01-24
Toms River, NJ

staticx57

Member

Re: GOOD!

the part about working for Verizon was sarcasm. I think it is ridiculous that there should be a bill banning municipal broadband ventures in the state. you dont need a bill to ban money from being used for broadband so it would be used for other causes.

keyboard5684
Sam
join:2001-08-01
Pittsburgh, PA

1 recommendation

keyboard5684 to staticx57

Member

to staticx57
His point does not mean he works for "Big Tobacco" or something. I agree, governments should focus on things that are needed, like feeding the poor maybe?

The internet is not a "need". It is not a staple item like water.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102 to staticx57

Premium Member

to staticx57
said by staticx57:

Which one do you work for, Verizon or Comcast?
I use Comcast HSI at home and Verizon DSL at work. I guess that makes me the worst of 2 evils
EAP
join:2000-01-15
Lafayette Hill, PA

1 edit

EAP to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
"our money" -- you live in King of Prussia.

By the way, I live in the suburbs too. But I realize that what is good for Philadelphia is good for the entire metropolitan area. I see no harm in this.

I don't think that the $$$ for this is coming from another budget area. SEPTA is funded by the state anyway.

Fire and police seem plentiful to me. I have never heard of any place in Philly burning down due to lack of fire stations. Nor have I seen not enough cops anywhere -- in fact I see plenty. Crime is down too.

You sound like the typical suburbanite who hasn't been too the big oh so scary city in 15 years and is too scared to go to a center city restaurant cause you might have to -- oh my god -- pay for parking. You think no money should ever be budgeted for Philly from anywhere else in the state (very provincial -- not thinking metropolitan).

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 edit

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: GOOD!

said by EAP:

"our money" -- you live in King of Prussia.
And a lot of the money I pay in state taxes ends up going into city coffers. If I worked in the city, I would also be forced to pay a wage tax. Either way, I have no say in how this money is spent.
said by EAP:

But I realize that what is good for Philadelphia is good for the entire metropolitan area.
You are correct, and with the city wasting money on silly, useless things, our taxes in the suburbs go up to make up the difference.
said by EAP:

I don't think that the $$$ for this is coming from another budget area. SEPTA is funded by the state anyway.
Every county serviced by SEPTA pays part of its costs. The remainder comes from fares, as well as state and federal funds.
said by EAP:

Fire and police seem plentiful to me. I have never heard of any place in Philly burning down due to lack of fire stations. Nor have I seen not enough cops anywhere -- in fact I see plenty. Crime is down too.
Philadelphia is about to close at least 8 fire stations to "save money." What if fewer fire stations mean more people dying in fires because the remaining stations cannot dispatch units quickly enough? As for crime being down, that is due to the fact that there are more cops on the streets. Instead of wasting money on something people can get on their own, perhaps more cops could be hired to make the city streets safer. And don't get me started on how pathetic the Philadelphia school system is.

And as for me being a typical suburbanite, I go into the city at least once a week for work related purposes and spend a fair amount of time in the city for fun. I want Philadelphia to be the best it can possibly be. But cutting spending on essential services to pay for some frivolous Internet venture is not the way to accomplish this.
GLX
join:2000-01-18
Hoboken, NJ

3 edits

1 recommendation

GLX to EAP

Member

to EAP
As a resident of Philadelphia (19129), I'd far prefer that the city spend money on

1) Plowing my street when it snows
I've never, ever had it plowed, even 2 years ago when we had those three big storms back to back. Forced me to buy a car that could drive in a foot of snow.

2) Fixing the streets
My coworker blew out a tire last week on a ditch in a street that was opened up by a city crew but never closed.

3) Fixing the schools
You see the news. 'nuff said.

4) Bailing SEPTA out again
To me this is incredibly low priority as they keep on digging their own grave, however it's still HIGHER in priority than Wi-Fi

5) Fixing PGW. Billions of dollars in debt. It's city owned.

6) Cut the absolutely ridiculous city wage tax that I pay.
Unless you work in the city you can't even begin to understand how hideous it is to have to pay ANOTHER 4% out of your paycheck to a city who can't even plow my street. Don't give me the "convenience" BS - I do most of my shopping in KoP and Plymouth Meeting and my work is in Bala Cynwyd. Of course I'm not going to shop in the city if it's going to cost me an extra 1% in sales tax. The last thing I want is to pay MORE to the city so that they can sponsor WiFi

7) Mayor $treet's impeachment trial

As much as I feel it's BS that the state is giving them a handout by legislating something like this, I'd rather it happen and they force the city's hand rather than $treet giving the contract for installing it to his brother.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: GOOD!

said by GLX:

1) Plowing my street when it snows
I've never, ever had it plowed, even 2 years ago when we had those three big storms back to back. Forced me to buy a car that could drive in a foot of snow.
Not even during an election year?
said by GLX:

As much as I feel it's BS that the state is giving them a handout by legislating something like this, I'd rather it happen and they force the city's hand rather than $treet giving the contract for installing it to his brother.
If you start seeing open wireless access points that are named "NOTLIM," you better watch out!

Starbucks Wi-Fi User to pnh102

Anon

to pnh102
Bravo Verizon!!!

I don't understand why the City of Philadelphia should operate what essentially would be a monopoly that canibalizes the service from legitimate companies providing broadband through DSL, cable, wireless (Wi-Fi) and MDS.

The City already provides FREE Wi-Fi at Love Park and at the Reading Terminal near downtown. Poor people cannot afford laptops so it does not make sense to deploy Wi-Fi in all areas of town. If the true intent is to gap the digital divide, the city should provide more computer terminals in libaries where the Internet will be used for people to study with instead of being used to arrange drug deals. But maybe the City needs the service for its Police Dept. so that it can more quickly access its databases to apprehend people for driving while black and the like... Do we really need to facilitate Big Brother??

If Wi-Fi throughout the city is really required, the City instead should offer an RFP to invite experienced Wi-Fi providers to deploy the mesh and be able to charge money for the access and perhaps offer the service to the city departments as well. In turn, the city could get a portion of the revenue for rental of light poles, signs and public building tops. (Instead of spending the City coffers, this would bring in revenue for other much needed projects.)

Why drain the life out of an already thin city budget? Just drain it out of the telecoms and let the users pay for the service as they need it.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: GOOD!

said by Starbucks Wi-Fi User:

But maybe the City needs the service for its Police Dept. so that it can more quickly access its databases to apprehend people for driving while black and the like...
If the city were to use an unregulated and unguaranteed-to-be-available-when-you-need-it space of bandwidth for something as life-critical as police or other emergency services, then this is much worse than a waste of money, this is the city deliberately taking risks that will put peoples' lives in danger.

Derch
Premium Member
join:2004-10-16
Hanahan, SC

Derch to pnh102

Premium Member

to pnh102
I think they are thinking about creating revenue to support public services in the long run. If they are not, than I agree with you.

As for Verizon and other supporting ISP's, your nuts...

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium Member
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

1 recommendation

nixen to pnh102

Premium Member

to pnh102
said by pnh102:

If people want Internet access that bad, they can always buy it from Comcast or Verizon, its not like the city isn't wired for broadband already.
While the particular article in question reguards how it effects the Philadelphia effort, not every (probably not even most) areas have 100% availability of broadband. If they must pass a law similar to this, it should be with the provision that Municipalities should be allowed to provide service where it doesn't already exist with more than one alternative provider. That is to say, municipalities should be able to provide for their citizenry wherever consumer choice and competitive markets do not already exist.

-tom
netscape 6
join:2002-03-07
Constantine, MI

netscape 6 to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
God forbid the local voters have a say in government that doesn't include the words "I'm kissing verizon's ass while they reach around and take my wallet"

••••
shkahler
join:2002-01-24
Stilwell, KS

shkahler to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
Wasting money? Think of how many public buildings or government offices are currently being supplied with internet access and how much is being paid for all of those feeds. I imagine the cost of a wifi net with 3 or 4 major backend feed points would cost much less then funding access at each serperate site.

weary
@reedsmith.com

weary

Anon

Really growing weary of VZ.

First they take our money for years and years and then they roll out fiber in Texas and Florida.

Then they tell me my service level will remain the same after I move all of two miles. It doesn't. In fact they tell me I am no longer qualified for DSL. They cancel my service. A month later they tell me I can have DSL again. But at half the previous bandwidth and a new account name.

Now they want to ban muni's from using their discretionary funds in whatever way they see fit.

All Comcast has to do is offer unbudled cable modem service for the same price as VZ's lowest service tier and I am done with them.

Fraxcat
@rcsntx.swbell.ne

Fraxcat

Anon

Re: Really growing weary of VZ.

"First they take our money for years and years and then they roll out fiber in Texas "

Oh give me a effing break. They're rolling out fiber in ONE NEIGHBORHOOD of Ft. Worth. Woop-tie-dee. *twirls finger in the air*

boogi man
join:2001-11-13
Jacksonville, FL

boogi man

Member

Crazy

This whole thing just sucks

Dan48
Trailer Park Supervisor
Premium Member
join:2002-12-17
Eh?

Dan48

Premium Member

This is a bad move for Verizon

This is going to hurt verizon, and the state if this is passed.

First Verizon will be 1 of 2 choices, and many people who are following this may drop verizon as their choice of isp.

The state will suffer, as it's people are going to be missing out on a communications medium that is so widely used and excepted.

Verizon is offering 30% off for schools? How about a government run ISP that offers the service free for the schools as a part of you tax dollars? I think we see how this is going.

Verizon gains, the community/education system/state loose.

DaveDude
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey

DaveDude

Member

We elected Verizon ?

First i dont have a problem with Muni, or corporate-quazi fights, however since when did verizon become an elected entity ? I guess representation doesnt exist for philadelphians.

•••

Lone Wolf
Retired
Premium Member
join:2001-12-30
USA

Lone Wolf

Premium Member

Massive Layoffs For Philly City Employees

In today's news, our Democrat mayor said we will be handing out pink slips to police and firefighters. And we need WiFi? Full story here: »www2.kyw1060.com/news_st ··· id=41978

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Massive Layoffs For Philly City Employees

said by Lone Wolf:

In today's news, our Democrat mayor said we will be handing out pink slips to police and firefighters. And we need WiFi?
Don't forget about the nice 15% pay raise that the "hard-working" Philadelphia city council voted to give itself as well. So the city will have free WiFi, an overpaid city council, but fewer cops and firefighters. Yeah, that's real smart.

xNPC
As Usual, Have Nice Day
Premium Member
join:2000-11-08
Errington, BC

xNPC

Premium Member

hasn't vz already fucked Pa. hard enough?

i mean come on....just wait til they reneg on their "promises" of FIOS FTTP in the ritzy west chester and surrounding areas. vz blows!

DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium Member
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA

DaDogs

Premium Member

You Can Solve This Problem BY....

Contacting your state representative...

or not...

Completely UP TO YOU.

jayw7
join:2000-08-03
Philadelphia, PA

jayw7

Member

Makes no sense anyway

Good, lets hope that if Verizon does stop Philly from the city WIFI maybe the crap Mayor will decide not to lay-off the much needed 500 Police Officers and Firemen, in fact with all that money he could hire so many more much needed police and firemen! Wow! I just don't get it, lets spend many millions of dollars on WIFI which is not needed and layoff highly needed police and firemen. Makes no sense but then again we're talking about a Mayor who should be in hell.

Jay