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'Father of the Web' a Spam Apologist?
Vint Cerf slammed for failing to stem MCI Spam
by Karl Bode 01:31PM Thursday Feb 17 2005
TCP/IP co-creator and MCI employee Vint Cerf is under fire for not taking action against spammers on MCI's network. Some suggest even filing a formal complaint against Cerf with the Association for Computing Machinery (ACM), which just distinguished Cerf with a Turing Award. According to Spamhaus, MCI is making $5 million a year from hosting more than 180 "spam gangs" around the world.

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ColdFiltered

join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA

WorldCon at its finest hour!

I couod never be associated with these uglies.

MikeRaach

join:2000-12-05
Martinez, CA

Re: WorldCon at its finest hour!

I agree, but problem is---money talks.

sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
What major ISP doesn't have pink contracts like this?
fantomposter
Phantom Poster
Premium
join:2002-09-21
Independence, OH

1 edit
I am one of the people that is helping write this letter. If you are a member of ACM, IM me with your real name and a contact email address, IF you want to be part of the ethics complaint.

I may come back for non-ACM members at a later date, after we see how many people we get. But first just ACM members only.
jsouth
Jsouth

join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS

I wonder....

If there is enough evidence to this fact why couldn't there be a lawsuit against them for say $15 million? If the lawsuit wins have either pay up or drop the spammers.

spamd
Premium
join:2001-04-22
Cherry Valley, IL

How much

How much you want to bet he never gets spam from those spam gangs on his network, or at least they never target anyone with an @mci.com address.

Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

Re: How much

said by spamd:

or at least they never target anyone with an @mci.com address.
Spammers are not smart enough to avoid abuse@ addresses, so there is no way they're avoiding @mci.com.
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site

spamd
Premium
join:2001-04-22
Cherry Valley, IL

Re: How much

said by Steve:

said by spamd:

or at least they never target anyone with an @mci.com address.
Spammers are not smart enough to avoid abuse@ addresses, so there is no way they're avoiding @mci.com.
Ouch. Kinda like shooing your self in the foot for them.

let me guess...
spammer setup presence on network.
spammer spams everything insight, including his own service provider.
service provider, then "black mails" (no pun intended) forcing the spammer to pay addition fees to stay connected, or receive the ax.

Does this sound right or am I missing something?

SameBS

@nat064107009.moraine

blah blah.....

Isn't this true for regular mail to? i get more bloat in the mailbox then real letters. Since the beginning of the year I've must of received 20 applications for credit cards and 10 school brochures that are best for me. It great how someone else can tell you what's good or bad for you when even you don't know that.
SkyDude

join:2000-11-19
Raynham, MA

Re: blah blah.....

said by SameBS:

Isn't this true for regular mail to? i get more bloat in the mailbox then real letters. Since the beginning of the year I've must of received 20 applications for credit cards and 10 school brochures that are best for me. It great how someone else can tell you what's good or bad for you when even you don't know that.
I receive a lot of direct mail, and the upside is that it keeps the Postal Service in business. I'm serious, too. Who writes letters anymore? Everything is email or IM, unless you're over 70, and even many seniors are dropping snail mail. But the bulk stuff keeps doesn't cost you anything and if it fills your mailbox - so what? Just drop it in your favorite trash or recycling can.

Awright, I'm done.

Spam, on the other hand, uses up resources that people pay for - you, me, our ISPs - and internet users in general. The last number I heard was spam accounts for 85% of all internet email traffic. That's bad. At least the bulk mail in your mailbox is usually from reputable businesses or schools - not the Viagra and pr0n merchants of the internet.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: blah blah.....

said by SkyDude:

I receive a lot of direct mail, and the upside is that it keeps the Postal Service in business.
There's another useless government institution which has outlived its usefulness. Just about everything in my snail mail box is ads and other crap. I remember that back in 1922 the then Postmaster General said that if people didn't have mailboxes then they could not receive mail. I sure wish I could get rid of my apartment's mailbox!
--
Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!
SkyDude

join:2000-11-19
Raynham, MA

Re: blah blah.....

said by pnh102:

There's another useless government institution which has outlived its usefulness. Just about everything in my snail mail box is ads and other crap.
Well, no, actually, the USPS has become a major player in the parcel delivery business, and it will continue to grow. In the next year or two, UPS and Fedex will be offering a discounted service where the USPS will provide "last mile" delivery services for them. DHL already does it and there are several companies that specialize in this service the USPS calls "Parcel Select". Many online businesses use it.

And, finally, I still get most of my bills via snail mail. Even those that have online payment sites state that the site doesn't replace the paper statement, even if they offer to turn off your paper statements.

They'll be around for a while.

Ivybridge_I7
Cyber-Crime Researcher OpSec
Premium
join:2004-06-09
Daytona Beach, FL
kudos:2

1 edit

1 recommendation

MCI Greed-com / Vint Cerf Your're fired

You can't apologize to me because I'm sick of dealing with this kind of crap in my inbox.

»More freak'in child porn spam ( ANGRY AS HELL)
»More freak'in child porn spam ( Part Deux )


Don't shoot the messenger,shoot the spammer
»www.antihotmail.com
Dslreports.com Profile: »profile.antihotmail.com
spammers_are_scumbags@antihotmail.com

trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

1 edit

1 recommendation

Re: MCI Greed-com / Vint Cerf Your're fired

Good job, the Internet needs more people like you. I know for one thing, the FBI is too slow when it comes to finding these sites, only ordinary people like us have the time to search out these sick bastards and turn them in.

Why did I call them bastards? Simple, that is what they are.
--
WedgeAntilles250

Tom's Rant

Ivybridge_I7
Cyber-Crime Researcher OpSec
Premium
join:2004-06-09
Daytona Beach, FL
kudos:2

Re: MCI Greed-com / Vint Cerf Your're fired

said by trparky:

Good job, the Internet needs more people like you. I know for one thing, the FBI is too slow when it comes to finding these sites, only ordinary people like us have the time to search out these sick bastards and turn them in. Why did I call them bastards? Simple, that is what they are.
Thanks for the kind words.

I don't search out child porn sites, it's being sent to me through junk email. I wouldn't call the people who deal in child porn bastards, It's more like they are total [BLEEPING] scum-bags.

» Child Pornography: The Pain Behind The Pictures
--
Don't shoot the messenger,shoot the spammer
»www.antihotmail.com
Dslreports.com Profile: »profile.antihotmail.com
spammers_are_scumbags@antihotmail.com

oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA

Heh

Like Al Gore is supposed to do anything about spam.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Re: Heh

Ok I'll say it: Al Gore invented Spam:D

Rogue Wolf
Mourns the Loss of lilhurricane

join:2003-08-12
Troy, NY

Re: Heh

Al Gore invented "Al Gore invented" jokes.

DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX

1 recommendation

Unfair

Vincent Cerf has a scientific/technical background. His role in MCI is essentially leading technical advancement and research related to TCP/IP and related technologies.

He is NOT responsible for "operational" aspects of such huge company. He has done a lot of good work for Internet and such critism is unfair. What he does at MCI can be seen here:

»global.mci.com/us/enterprise/ins···pective/

RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

Re: Unfair

Oh gee now look what you've done. You've injected sanity, factual accuracy and logic into their little rant party. Shame on you.
--
The revolution will not go better with Coke.
fantomposter
Phantom Poster
Premium
join:2002-09-21
Independence, OH

Re: Unfair

said by RadioDoc:

Oh gee now look what you've done. You've injected sanity, factual accuracy and logic into their little rant party. Shame on you.
Factual accuracy? He left out Cerf's comments on Send-Safe and defense of MCI.

But other than that, great point!!

bleearg13

join:2001-03-03
Gaithersburg, MD

1 edit

Re: Unfair

I'm confused about what the big deal is. Send-Safe.com, from what I understand, are not spammers themselves. Yes, they create software that enables spammers to spam - they should be strung up by their nosehairs, blah blah blah. So what? Gun manufacturers create weapons which enable people to kill other people. There is no law against making software that enables people to spam, just as there is no law against manufacturing guns.

While I do not agree with spammers or that this software *should* be available (but guns should be ), technically, selling goods or a product like this is not against the MCI AUP/TOS. From a legal perspective, terminating an account for no solid reason other than "whiny internet users don't like what you're producing" is, whether you like it or not, grounds for a lawsuit which MCI I'm sure doesn't have time to deal with. Personally, if I were MCI engineers, I'd kill their class of service so traffic to their site grinds to a halt at random times - make them leave due to poor service - avoid a lawsuit!

**HINT** Change the useless CAN-SPAM law to include the manufacture/sale of such software and you'll see the site's departure from MCI's network. Maybe I'm simplifying things.

And by the way, WTF do you think Vint Cerf has to do with policy decisions at MCI? He's a scientist who spends his time writing RFCs about interplanetary IP communications. Try complaining to someone who can actually make a policy decision like terminating a customer.

Personally, I think practically any grocery store, credit card company, mortgage lender, or insurance company should be brought up on charges. The useless CRAP I get from any one of these industries fills my mailbox on a daily basis - I never asked for it - and they are wasting natural resources.
fantomposter
Phantom Poster
Premium
join:2002-09-21
Independence, OH

Re: Unfair

quote:
I'm confused about what the big deal is. Send-Safe.com, from what I understand, are not spammers themselves. Yes, they create software that enables spammers to spam - they should be strung up by their nosehairs, blah blah blah. So what? Gun manufacturers create weapons which enable people to kill other people. There is no law against making software that enables people to spam, just as there is no law against manufacturing guns.

What Send-Safe is selling is indeed violating the law. It is illegal in Virginia (and several other states), where MCI is headquartered. And the law is broad enough that MCI is also in violation. And the law is written that it has a long reach, the Virgina AG can reach out across state lines and snag people that are violating it. And they have. Those are the facts.

quote:
From a legal perspective, terminating an account for no solid reason other than "whiny internet users don't like what you're producing".

You need to learn more about who is running send-safe, and who is paying for the line from MCI. And I think if you check around you will find most ISP corporate contracts have a 30 day cancelation clause, no reason needed. Stop making excuses for the number one spam producing ISP in the world.

quote:
whether you like it or not, grounds for a lawsuit which MCI I'm sure doesn't have time to deal with. Personally, if I were MCI engineers, I'd kill their class of service so traffic to their site grinds to a halt at random times - make them leave due to poor service - avoid a lawsuit!

You are missing the point. MCI is spam friendly. This isn't just about Send-Safe, Send-Safe and Cerf are tools being used to hammer MCI in the press and in the industry. MCI as a corporate policy is spam tolerant. Lawsuit, that is funny. Please provide some links where a spammer has been sucessful suing ISP's. You might find one, or two. But nothing of any significance. Spammers sue all the time and they get their asses handed to them every time. Simply because they are violating their contracts and the companies posted terms of service.

quote:
**HINT** Change the useless CAN-SPAM law to include the manufacture/sale of such software and you'll see the site's departure from MCI's network. Maybe I'm simplifying things.

No, you are complicating things. We do not need laws to fix spam. We need ISP's like MCI to stop hosting spammers.

quote:
And by the way, WTF do you think Vint Cerf has to do with policy decisions at MCI?

Did you not read what I wrote. Cerf put himself into this, not us. HE defended MCI, HE defended Send-Safe. And if you think the Vice President of Technology can not get a meeting with the CEO of MCI to discuss spam you are nuts.

quote:
Try complaining to someone who can actually make a policy decision like terminating a customer.

That is just plain silly. MCI is the number one producer of spam in the freaking world. More than China, more than Kornet in Korea for pete's sake. It has been that way for a long long time. Did you not read any of the related articles where Linford has been contacting MCI exec's for two YEARS about this?

If MCI actually 'terminated customers' none of this would have happened.

We didn't start by attacking Cerf. We are escalating because they have been unresponsive.

quote:
Personally, I think practically any grocery store, credit card company, mortgage lender, or insurance company should be brought up on charges. The useless CRAP I get from any one of these industries fills my mailbox on a daily basis - I never asked for it - and they are wasting natural resources.

So the grocery stores you speak of are hijacking trojan infected mail trucks and using them to fill your mailbox? Yea, if that is the case I agree they should go to jail.

memyselfi

@dsl.sntc01.pacbell.n

Re: Unfair

Tim Berners Lee is the father of the Web, not Vint Cerf.

DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX

Re: Unfair

said by memyselfi:

Tim Berners Lee is the father of the Web, not Vint Cerf.
Internet is not just web. Web uses TCP/IP underneat. Go read Cerfs biography to find out what he did for TCP/IP development. Neighter Cerf nor Lee are the only pioneers to salute!