Cydoor Asks us to Reconsider 'Spyware' TagThey prefer the term 'mild adware', apparently ( old news - 01:28PM Friday Mar 11 2005) tags: legal · spyware Cydoor has written us an e-mail, asking us to reconsider our use of the term "spyware" to describe their product. In their defense, the e-mail is cordial and contains no legal threats, unlike recent iDownload letters to security related websites. We include the letter in its entirety so you can judge the validity of its points: In regard with your article, I would like to bring your attention to your categorization of our ad-serving technology as spyware#&46 I believe that this categorization is mistaken, and I would like to show you why. I would also like to request that you update your description of Cydoor to be a mild adware.
In the past, Cydoors client was defined as Spyware by several members of the press and the anti-spyware industry. The client itself was mostly bundled with free software for the sole purpose of enabling that application to display ads. The client communicated with a Cydoor host periodically in order to present new ad creatives and to report on ad performance. Though no personally-identifying information was ever transferred, this method was considered invasive because users did not explicitly agree to install a Cydoor component or to the transmission of information . However, today Cydoor has significantly changed its technology to offer end-users and partners an unobtrusive ad-serving solution. With a greater emphasis on visibility and privacy issues, Cydoor provides its partners with a reliable source of revenue, while making sure users are aware of its activities.
How does it work?
Cydoor provides all its publishers with a complete interactive advertising solution, including ad serving, frequency capping, and performance statistics. Cydoor allows each publisher to implement a solution that provides them with the advertising flexibility that they require, including any and all communication to Cydoors servers. Cydoor has no presence on the end-users desktop in any way, and our partners can serve ads and generate revenue from their application or web property.
Users download the desired application, while noting that it is ad-supported. Cydoor strongly urges all its partners to state upfront that their application is freeware but is supported by advertising revenue, and most state it in their End User License Agreement (EULA). There is no installation, explicit or otherwise, of any Cydoor component on the users computer.
After installation, the partner application manages the various advertisements and their performance. The ads are served according to predefined impression requirements and caps and exposure is not based on any aspect of the users behavior. From time to time the partner application connects to Cydoor's servers in order to report aggregated performance records such as which ads were displayed, how many impressions they received, and which, if any, did the user click on. These are the same kind of performance parameters that are tracked by any online advertiser, including banners published on a web site.
Id like to emphasize that the application does not download ANY information from the Cydoor servers aside from ad creative. The application reports only basic aggregated campaign performance parameters. Under no circumstance does the application report on any other user behavior or does it transmit any personally identifiable content.
Id like you to note that as an example, two of our partners, Download Accelerator and PalTalk Instant Messenger are either certified as Spyware-Free or are working with the leading Anti-Spyware vendors to be removed from their Spyware list.
Please let me know if you need any additional information regarding my request.
Sincerely,
Orit Levy
CydoorConcerned with upcoming Ad/Spyware legislation, vendors have been on a massive PR and legal push to clean up their image in the media and among security vendors. The primary thrust of that effort involves being sure each vendor's product is categorized as beneficial or harmless "adware" while less ethical applications are categorized as "spyware" (even if both sometimes utilize dubious code and aren't wanted). This is being accomplished via legal threats against websites, and by offering spyware detection developers marketing deals to weaken detection criteria. We'll admit that Cydoor's request is the friendliest we've seen to date. Some Cydoor reference: •The Computer Associates "Spyware Dictionary" entry on Cydoor.•The Symantec entry on Cydoor.•The Spybot entry on Cydoor.•A Google Search offers up 106,000 references to Cydoor as Spyware. Most respected anti-spyware software detects Cydoor as something that could impede computer performance and should be removed, even if it has cleaned up its act. Does it matter what we call it? Related:- FTC 'Cracks Down' on Spyware Purveyors
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- Kaspersky Can Call Your Crap Spyware Anything They Like
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  Happyrat Google Is Your Best Friend Premium join:2002-07-01 Disneyland | Call it crapware then... A duck is a duck is a duck... | |
|  |   Nerdtalker Working Hard, Or Hardly Working? Premium,MVM join:2003-02-18 Tucson, AZ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Call it crapware then... said by Happyrat :A duck is a duck is a duck... If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck ***news flash*** It is a duck! | |
|  |  |   Mac Bridger Beat It Again Bill Premium join:2001-01-11 Smithton, PA clubs:
| They said it themselves said by cydoor's threatening letter: From time to time the partner application connects to Cydoor's servers in order to report aggregated performance records such as which ads were displayed, how many impressions they received, and which, if any, did the user click on.
Wow, I think you just admitted that it is spyware. Quit complaining and take your medicine. -- Your resident hillbilly expert. | |
|  |  |  |   Spore Cloud I H8 Computers
join:2001-09-09 Burleson, TX | Re: They said it themselves I was thinking the same thing. That is TOTALLY an admission of spying. Now of course that isint as bad as keeping track of someones browsing habits but it is still spying no matter how its put. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   2tr
@cable.rogers | Re: They said it themselves
LOL! | |
|  |   AtomicZero
join:2004-11-24 West Palm Beach, FL
·Comcast
| said by Happyrat :A duck is a duck is a duck... agreed, but you gotta love those Ad guys, always coming up with the slick wording...um, no this is not spyware you just have a case of MILD adware. I understand that the developers of freeware and all that goes under that title of free needs to generate revenue somehow, all I say is make sure you let the end users know what they are installing. Let us make the choice to screw up our PCs or not. | |
|  |   DownLow Nope...I Got Nothing Premium join:2001-04-25 Long Island
| A piece of advice to Cydoor...
Don't just "urge" your partners to state upfront that their application is freeware but is supported by advertising" - REQUIRE IT. If you customers are guilty...so are you!
Unwanted software is just that..unwanted!
Quack!! -- Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult! | |
|  |  |  |  |   Jason Wait, wait... What? Premium join:2001-01-24 38.2967 Lat clubs:
| Hmmm..
Tracks various usage statistics, then relays them back to the mothership?
No pop-up window asking you if you want that info going out? No user interface to make it verbose? No uninstaller?
Sound a hell of a lot like spying to me.
Actually, it sounds more like sh*tware to me.
Oof.
-Jason -- ...If you choose to pull the trigger ...Should your drama prove sincere Do it somewhere far away from here. | |
|  |  |   Anonymous Premium join:2004-06-01 IA | Re: Call it crapware then... You're missing a letter.
It's shitware.
 | |
|  |   fireflier Coffee. . .Need Coffee Premium join:2001-05-25 Limbo | Pleeeeeease, pretty please with sugar on top, stop telling people the truth about us. . . -- When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other. | |
|   xillusionx
| spyware Personally, all those who complain about be classfied as spyware should give up. Even if we all call them another name , everyone will know the short to the point name spyware.
-illusion | |
|  jjcrandall
join:2004-01-01 Salt Lake City, UT | Crapware any time you download a program and can't get rid of everything when you remove it. It's spyware. "mild adware" is just pr talk for annoying app that never goes away and tracks your internet movement. | |
|  Daemon Premium join:2003-06-29 San Francisco, CA
·University of Cali..
·University of Cali..
| depends on the definition of spyware I think the term spyware has transcended the original meaning, which was a hidden program installed that tracks your behavior and reports it to an outside source.
It's now been applied to any program that tracks your behavior and displays ads. Even if people know they are installing the program, they still don't like what it does or that fact that they have to install it to install whatever it came bundled with. Thus, it gets labelled spyware because it's irritating.
It's similar, in my opinion, to the label hacker. It transcended it's original meaning to include those cracking systems maliciously.
Sorry cydoor, I think it's going to be hard to change our collective psyches -- -Ryan Computational Engineering Student looking for BioMedical/Computational BioEng internship. PM me if you know of any available! | |
|  |  AquaBlaze Premium join:2004-02-02 Encino, CA
| Re: depends on the definition of spyware said by Daemon :I think the term spyware has transcended the original meaning, which was a hidden program installed that tracks your behavior and reports it to an outside source. It's now been applied to any program that tracks your behavior and displays ads. I think you answered your question just there. Cydoor (and all the collective "adware" agencies) ARE spyware, as they are tracking your behavior with their software. Keeping track of how many ads I've seen, how many clicks I make, etc.? That's spying, my friend...and that's what spyware does.
It's no keylogger, but they admit that it is keeping information on my habits. Who knows what else it's doing that they're not telling me? It's not exactly like they have any credibility with the internet community.
said by Daemon :Even if people know they are installing the program, they still don't like what it does or that fact that they have to install it to install whatever it came bundled with. Thus, it gets labelled spyware because it's irritating. No, it gets labeled "crapware" and "malware" because it annoys the hell out of you AND makes your system unstable. The "spyware" tag gets earned for keeping track of any "habits" I might be having on my own damn computer.
So, Cydoor is spyware, crapware, and malware, all rolled into one. Sorry for the mistake Cydoor.  | |
|  |  |  Daemon Premium join:2003-06-29 San Francisco, CA
·University of Cali..
·University of Cali..
| Re: depends on the definition of spyware said by AquaBlaze :I think you answered your question just there. Cydoor (and all the collective "adware" agencies) ARE spyware, as they are tracking your behavior with their software. Keeping track of how many ads I've seen, how many clicks I make, etc.? That's spying, my friend...and that's what spyware does. It's not spying if I authorize or otherwise invite the tracking. (Otherwise, auditing services could be prosecuted for espionage) Thus, if the installer program makes it explicit that my habits will be tracked and I must agree to complete the install, it's not strictly "spyware". -- -Ryan Computational Engineering Student looking for BioMedical/Computational BioEng internship. PM me if you know of any available! | |
|  |  |  |  AquaBlaze Premium join:2004-02-02 Encino, CA
| Re: depends on the definition of spyware How do you "authorize" tracking when the damn things install via exploits and other unscruplous deployment methods where you don't even get the option to say no? Not to meantion that even on "legit" spyware installs, the agreement to "allow" spying is buried on page 1834 of the EULA, written in legaleeze.
If adware really wanted to be taken as "adware", then the advertisement and tracking methods should be published on page 1, right in the user's face...not just subsection Q of document reference packet 9B in the hidden help file in the install. However, chances are that if these activities were made known from minute 1 of installation, and they'd apparantly rather have uninformed miserable users than have customers who actually want their software "solution".
Stealth installs and deceptive EULAs do not amount to user concent, so they still are spying on these "customers", thus, spyware. | |
|  |  |  |  |  Daemon Premium join:2003-06-29 San Francisco, CA
·University of Cali..
·University of Cali..
| Re: depends on the definition of spyware We're arguing the same thing here.
I agree completely with your above point. However, even if cydoor does exactly what you describe, the foul memory of spyware will keep it labeled as spyware, because the consumer won't see the difference. -- -Ryan Computational Engineering Student looking for BioMedical/Computational BioEng internship. PM me if you know of any available! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  AquaBlaze Premium join:2004-02-02 Encino, CA
| Re: depends on the definition of spyware said by Daemon :However, even if cydoor does exactly what you describe, the foul memory of spyware will keep it labeled as spyware, because the consumer won't see the difference. It still meets my criteria for spyware, as they now admit (in plain english, in their own words) that buried within the software EULA, it allows them to track your habits. Maybe someday some other company will come along and truely make Adware in the pure sense of the word...currently though, it seems like every "no-spyware adware" vendor abuses that label with the stealth installs & f***ed up EULAs. | |
|  |   StudioTech An Assigned Frequency
join:2001-10-10 Edison, NJ | Ok, you've convinced me, Cydoor. I believe you... NOT! | |
|   oliphant I Have 8 Boobies Premium join:2004-11-26 Corona, CA
·Verizon west (ex G..
| So by their logic a peeping Tom isn't spying? Simply because the Tom doesn't know the name of the broad he's watching?
In every EULA buried at the 12,000th word is the fine print about how an app bends you over and F's ya. That's not the point. The point is a duck is a duck whether you know it's a duck or don't know it's a duck.
Any app that reports ANYTHING about the end user including performance statistics is spying whether it attaches a name to it or not. -- Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
|   nikdo Premium join:2002-02-26 Dacula, GA
·Charter Pipeline
| No, thank you No one will ever make me understand why the combination of owning a computer(s) and it being connected to the internet gives anyone a right to think this means I want to be a target for their advertising. The closest thing to an "excuse" they have is that it is part of an agreement for "free" software. Personally, I would much rather pay for software I require, and if I do decide to take advantage of an application that is free, then I will only choose one that I know contains nothing other than the function it was written for. I paid for my computer. I paid for my software. I pay for my broadband every month. I do not wish to pay or assist anyone who degrades any of the above. | |
|  |   Nezmo The name's Bond. James Bond. Premium,MVM join:2004-11-10 Coppell, TX | Re: No, thank you So well put nikdo... | |
|  |  vwtoys
join:2001-08-13 Torrance, CA | I think we should charge these adware (mild or not) companies for adwares in our computers. The usage of our system resources/bandwidth should be paid for by them. Why should I give them free data/information? It's only fair. | |
|  |  |  AquaBlaze Premium join:2004-02-02 Encino, CA
| Re: No, thank you said by vwtoys :I think we should charge these adware (mild or not) companies for adwares in our computers. The usage of our system resources/bandwidth should be paid for by them. Why should I give them free data/information? It's only fair. Because hidden deep within their EULA, you agree to not do that very said thing. Otherwise, I'd have a going rate of $500 a kilobyte for storing their software. :P | |
|   jjoshua Premium join:2001-06-01 Scotch Plains, NJ | Who is making the classification? As a community, we're free to classify it however we want to.
Thanks for your opinion, Cydoor. It has been duly noted. | |
|   Murray
join:2001-03-06 Texas
| Doesn't Make It Right So they think Adware is any better than Spyware? Ads might not spy on an individual, but it's still an invasion of privacy... and a huge nuisance.
When it comes to something going over your internet wire that is undesirable and unwanted, it doesn't matter what it's labelled as. | |
|  |   2ndTimePoster
@comcast.net
| Re: Doesn't Make It Right Actually terminology, definitions, and user expectations do matter and do make things right. If you install an application that you know includes adware and if it is stated that information and user behavior relative to the ad placement will be tracked and sent to some party, then it is not spying in the sense of watching secretly.
However, in defense of the term spyware, we only need to go to the dictionary to see that it is broad enough to include observation for a specific purpose. | |
|   Grail Knight Who Dares Wins Premium join:2003-05-31 USA | And we all just fell off the Turnip truck! Keep an eye out they may be next to pass the TAC. | |
|   MrWhippit You Big Dummy Gimmie Back My Bandwith Premium join:2002-04-04 Philadelphia, PA | I know who could get this to work for him! Get BILLY MAYS!!
If anyone can make a product legit he can. -- Its all BALL-BEARINGS these days! | |
|   inteller Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08 Tulsa, OK | ad creatives? oh FOCK all of this slick marketing talk. You push shit onto people's computers, plain and simple. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  See 7 replies to this post | |
  anonqnrt
@verio.net | Let readers respond DSL Reports should hold a contest; for readers to write a response letter. Everyone could vote for the best response letter to Cydoor. | |
|  |   Grail Knight Who Dares Wins Premium join:2003-05-31 USA | Re: Let readers respond I like the poll idea better. Numbers seem to speak louder than words. | |
|  |  |  jsouth Jsouth
join:2000-12-12 Wichita, KS
| Re: Let readers respond What if we all reply directly to any reply address on the email? I can see it now, a few thousand people telling them to sod off. Especially since this board has no financial ties to any anti-spyware company, so it's a matter of free speech. -- BTK is Caught!!!! | |
|   GlenQuagmire Giggidy Giggidy Giggidy Goo Premium join:2004-02-16 Grand Rapids, MI | Sh#$ware How about we call it shitware! | |
|  |  |   TheJoker Premium,MVM join:2001-04-26 Alexandria, VA
| Re: Just look at the demo from their site.... I wonder what that did look like. It wanted to use ActiveX, shame on it. Of course, it was blocked by my settings, courtesy of IE-SPYAD. Thanks Eric.  -- TheJoker | |
|  |  |   Titus Pullo I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26 | Another rope salesmen "Cydoor provides all its publishers with a complete interactive advertising solution [...]"
Say no more ...
-- "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
|   rogue_ I Have A Secret Window Premium join:2001-10-17 Lake Hiawatha, NJ
·Cablevision
edit: March 11th, @04:06PM
| After reading that nice letter.... I come to the conclusion that Cydoor may NOT be spyware.
I wonder what Levy means when she says "consider it mild adware". The reason I wonder is why would someone refer to their product as 'mild adware' when, according to Levy, nothing is ever installed on a users computer from Cydoor in the first place.
Well, if nothing is ever installed on a users computer then how can all these respected AV products detect it? See, it's not out there to be detected if we are to believe Levy. So I guess that Symantec and ALL the others are just arbitrarily adding Cydoor for shits and giggles?
I think, like the BBr rep here thinks. Nice letter but...
Honestly, it appears that Cydoor's Levy is attempting to lay the blame on HER customers. They are the ones who should be notifying US, the computer user, about the ad content that will be endlessly pumped into our systems.
Toss her to wolves I say..
Sorry, I assumed you were male.
Single or married? I always wanted to give lovin' to a geek  -- Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. | |
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