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EU Sets BPL Guidelines
Believes it could bridge digital divide
by Karl Bode 06:01PM Friday Apr 08 2005
Reuters (via Om Malik) reports the EU has followed the U.S. lead in clarifying rules surrounding BPL (broadband via power-line) technology. Despite industry skepticism and interference worries, Governments on both sides of the ocean believe BPL will bring competition to markets, while bridging the digital divide. According to the article, the EU is aware of interference but claims the "technology had improved" and efforts in Germany and Spain show such problems "can be resolved."

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techjoe
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Warrenville, IL
kudos:1

Lets get this over with..

Hammers suck. Long live broadband!

In all reality though, it does seem BPL fever is wearing off in the USA. Reading more on trials ending prematurely or with less than great results than anything else..As much as I disagree that the interference would be a complete show stopper (pending changes to the BPL system, perhaps) the longer it takes the less life it will have..WiMAX is around the corner, and I'm sure there's the replacement for WiMAX already starting to be hashed out in a lab somewhere..Can't forget the fiber pushes of late either. Granted fiber isn't a practical option for the rural folk, wireless is actually rather ideal because of the distances it can travel without obstructions not needing repeaters/etc.

/2p

DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX

Re: Lets get this over with..

WiMax is not currently in trial deployment so the state of BPL is more advanced even if there are issues.

Currently the only viable solution for broadband under developped areas is WISP service providers (mostly via Wi-Fi based technology). Given Bell's have managed to get 10 states already ban municipal broadband and 10 more states are following the pack (with Texas is right about to join the pack thanks to strong SBC, Verizon lobby) rural America will wait for a long long time!

jarablue
Always be true to yourself

join:2001-06-11
Boxborough, MA

Re: Lets get this over with..

Who the hell still uses ham radios anyway? Get a freakin phone for christs sake.

Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro

1 edit

Re: Lets get this over with..

said by jarablue:

Who the hell still uses ham radios anyway? Get a freakin phone for christs sake.
Your reply shows how ignorant and clueless you are.

They don't use ham radios as their MAIN form of communications but as a HOBBY. It is RUNNING your own radio station! You can talk AROUND the world on less than 1 watt of electricity EVEN if your electricity goes out....

Ham Radios were one of the main forms of communications following 9/11 at Ground Zero! In all the hurricanes, and other events that take out the phone networks, ham radio is the ONLY way. The government uses these operators for emergency communication. They even recognized them recently by giving all ham radio operators the right to a special drivers license plate just for ham radio operators (doesn't sound like much, but they're RECOGNIZED).

-Tzale
--
Hey OOL, throttle this! I'm going to FIOS...
Verizon FIOS Forum
markopoleo

join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO

Re: Lets get this over with..

Lets see a Internet that can make money or a hobby that is outdated. What will the government/people choose..

/sarcasm

Unless you live in a poor nation, middle of the desert, etc no reason to use a ham.

Your statement shows how ignorant and clueless YOU are. Emergency services don't NEED hams anymore (minus the above situation). Cell phone service worked at ground zero btw, cell phone service works in hurricanes. Chances of a cell tower and its backup to go offline in a hurricane? same chance the person running a ham radio station will die when his house blows over in that same hurricane. I had family the lived in Florida on coast and could use cellphone to call us all the time during hurricane (even one point to call and say a boat just parked were car used to be, but on top of the car!)

A special license plate!!! OMG YOUR SO RECOGNIZED! Congrats your now clumped into the same area as millions of other people with special plates for stupid reasons! Good Job!

pork-n-beans

@24.xx.44.xx.charter-

1 recommendation

Re: Lets get this over with..

Ham radio is a "2 part" service. It's importance as an emergency communication medium for the nation shouldn't be confused with the fact that it is also a hobby.

Ham radio operators have made vast improvements to the way we communicate today by developing/refining technologies such as SSB and digital modes like psk31. Lots of Hams devote quite a bit of their *own* time to the cause, studying rf propagation and ways to make it better, more effecient, more fun, etc. Hams have even proposed solutions for bpl that would make it feasible (like moving the spectrum it operates in to 5ghz), but stuff like this seems to go in one deaf capitalist ear and out the other.

Amateur radio is much more than a "hobby" for some of us. As an EE student, ham radio has helped me procure interests that would have otherwise been left unfounded. Not to mention the fact that it is very challenging (and fun) to build your own radio station and have a conversation with someone on the other side of the world, without having to pay for airtime or isp fees.

And it's not a matter of "if", but "when" there is a serious natural disaster, and your precious cell phone WONT work (hell mine only works half the time now...can't even get service in my bedroom, less than 2 miles from the tower.) Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters? No, you wont call anybody because the 600,000 hams who listen to you whine about how you don't need their help anymore will still be there to help anyway, because that's what we do...

Not to mention the service we provide to the National Weather Service when there is severe weather. Google up Skywarn, ARES, RACES, MARS, and get an idea of what it's all about before you go cutting it down.

My radios have *never* given me a "busy signal", or told me to try my call again later because "all circuits are full". I don't need a dialtone or an IP address to communicate, be it for my pleasure or the safety of myself or others. Too much reliance on big technology will leave us severly crippled in the event of a serious disaster. Then whatcha gonna do?
markopoleo

join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO

Re: Lets get this over with..

Then you need better phone service.

pork-n-beans

@24.xx.44.xx.charter-

Re: Lets get this over with..

Your missing the point. During such a disaster/emergency, there is typically *NO* phone service, regardless. Doesn't matter who my carrier is when one of the local exchanges or main exchange or whatever gets wiped out.

rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

1 edit

Re: Lets get this over with..

This is the same guy (markopoleo) that claimed DC power grids were "better" for BPL. 'nuff said

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
Reviews:
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Re: Lets get this over with..

said by rf_engineer:

This is the same guy (markopoleo) that claimed DC power grids were "better" for BPL. 'nuff said
You don't suppose he is Thomas Edison reincarnated:)
--
Low voltage Tech's are wimps, Real tech's use 45 pound filament transformers, plate voltages no less then 2400 volts with at least 10 amp's lighting 8877 triodes...BPL I'm coming to get you.
KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
said by pork-n-beans:

Your missing the point.
markopoleo is very good at missing the point...or at least any point that does not jive with what he wishes to be true.

My my wife said to congratulate him on his ignorance. She told me to ask him AT WHAT TIME was he at ground zero on 9.11 or the days following it. The rest of it was not meant for a forum of such civility. Obviously, being there, losing folks there, returning there as part of a response team (yes, my wife is also trained in emergency communications) and continuing to work in the area can make someone a bit defensive.

Rob
KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
said by markopoleo:

Then you need better phone service.
Sadly, that was the case at ground zero. Too bad such a sarcastic and quippy response would have been lost on the sullen moods of others on 9/11 and the long period that followed.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
said by markopoleo:

blah blah blah
I would listen to your rants but you have yet to be post proof of your past claims.

BTW, HAMS were is use during 9/11. »www.defrance.org/wtc/Cirri.htm

quote:
Lieutenant Cirri, a member of the Port Authority Police Department, had about 10 ham radios operating at their home in Nutley, N.J., and helped shore up the state's emergency communications systems. One of the repeaters he set up for the Hudson County Office of Emergency Management was working on Sept. 11, with his voice, and his friends are keeping it. "His voice is still going on, as we speak," Mrs. Cirri said. "It's still keying up every 15 minutes on that repeater, out in space forever."
Here is another one:

»www.hudson.arrl.org/beacon/october2001.htm

In case you forgot, this was my question for you:

quote:
said by markopoleo:

Nuff said.

They are even whining about SUCCESS FULL trials that are going on, including one that has only had once complaint in the 6 months, which was dropped because owner cited it was his equipment not the BPL trial causing his problems. lol

To which I responded:

said by moonpuppy:

Post proof of said complaint.

Otherwise, the HAMS and the ARRL live in your head rent free.

From: »Stupid ARRL

Now post up your claims or go sit in the corner like a good little boy. RENT FREE! SING IT!
KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
said by markopoleo:

Your statement shows how ignorant and clueless YOU are. Emergency services don't NEED hams anymore (minus the above situation). Cell phone service worked at ground zero btw,
Gee markopoleo...yet another fact-less post made by you in yet another BPL discussion in which you never offer proof of your claims, nor bother to respond to the courteous and fact-filled responses to your multitude of posts.

You might want to reconsider using the term, "ignorant" in response to others when you have so easily continued to maintain that line of thinking.

I won't waste the bandwidth to offer you salient responses to your posts...quite frankly they are all over the place and you can easily go back and read them all.

Incidentally,
my wife worked in the hot zone. I promise you that cell phone service was not available. Even a spark of access was overloaded...throughout the whole of NYC- even in undamaged areas due to the unusually heavy volume.

In the weeks that followed, cell service was slow to return while the communication needs were immediately dire.

I was one of those unnecessary "stupid reason license plate" folks who was called back to NYC (since I had moved to another county) to operate an emergency communication station under the auspices of the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management in liaison with Red Cross . My stupid and unnecessary station was asked to be set up hundreds of feet from where the towers used to stand in the EOC (Emergency Operations Center) where the FBI, military, local, state and other response agencies were situated. It's unbelievable (I know...) that I was given the highest clearance (a modified ALL ACCESS ID - so I couldn't enter things like the morgue)and that the military escorted me to my post- one which you so comfortably state had to be stupid and unnecessary.

But, I digress...markopoleo knows it all...as long as it jives with his wants.

Maybe someone slipped me a mickey and I imagined all of this...

...that must have been it.

I don't expect a reply since markopoleo has NEVER responded to a rebuttal on the subject. I only post so that new-comers will not assume that because markopoleo has written it, that is is so!

Rob
w2co

join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO

Re: markopoleo's continued disinformation...

I won't even respond to Marcopoleo's factless posts anymore. It is a waste of bandwidth and time. Just let him rant - he's nothing anyway.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Re: markopoleo's continued disinformation...

said by w2co:

I won't even respond to Marcopoleo's factless posts anymore. It is a waste of bandwidth and time. Just let him rant - he's nothing anyway.
Don't worry. HAMS live in marcopoleo's head rent free. Every time this comes up, he rants off BS he can't prove.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
Reviews:
·CenturyLink

2 edits

markopoleo field testing Beano
I have a photo of markopoleo

sabersaw
Premium
join:2001-08-21
Dayton, OH
kudos:1

1 edit
said by jarablue:

Who the hell still uses ham radios anyway? Get a freakin phone for christs sake.
people who generally make stuff happen.

its okay.. I would expect this kind of talk from a bungals fan;)
Purplemaid

join:2005-03-09
Tucson, AZ
What you do not know will kill you. What braindead area did you come from. If you would read anything about ham radio you would know that EVERY comunication technowlgy used today was developed with the aid of amatuer radio experimentors. I.E. the packet techniques used on the net and digi-cell. In fact about 20 yrs ago I was one of the HAMS involved with developing and testing at the Uiversity of Arizona. Also in 1983 there was a massive flood in southern Arizona. I used Ham radio to assist in rescue efforts (72 hrs with very little sleep). Every major disaster HAMS are involved in some way. IF YOU EVER HAD INFERENCE ON YOUR CAR RADIO NEAR POWER LINES THIS IS WHAT BPL WILL DO. Soooo if you do not know what you are talking about ....shut up.

halfband
Premium
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL
It's not just ham radio that is affected by BPL. The other users just don't have a reason to post here. Marine radio, Aircraft Radio, Military and emergency services are all at risk. Amateur use is probably less than 20% of the bands involved. BPL costs too much to deploy in rural areas (all those low interference repeaters/amplifiers every few thousand feet), and has too much competition in dense areas. You can whip on this dead horse forever, but even without any Hams, BPL will be at most a very small market.
--
Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812

Thrudd

join:2004-06-21
Mississauga, ON
Other have made mention of 9/11 but I will make mention of something more recent - the power outage fiasco in the great lakes basin area just a little over a year and a half ago.

Cell phones were working fine for up to an hour after when their batteries died - that is for those towers that actually had back up power that is - most radio stations were still going for a few hours until their back up power to their transmitters ran out of fuel - the regular phone lines were just swamped/clogged.

In my area (region of PEEL) the Emergency response system worked almost flawlessly without any communication problems -why? - because the local HAM operators/clubs provided both much needed equipment and trained personnel resources. When the back up power at the police and fire stations is barely enough to keep emergency systems going, having someone with a rig, generator and trained in not clogging the airwaves with useless jabber was in some situations literally a life saver.

being a trained and licenced radio operator is no different than being trained in first aid or rescue techniques .... sure there are professionals who can do it but you would be damn glad there was someone right then and there who could do something if you got in trouble.

(oh and the spell check feature is really useful ^_- )

TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI

Over and underestimating...

The HAM people are overestimating the importance of HAM radio. The HAM-radio-haters are underestimating its importance. The tweeners don't care enough to post about it.

All sides, save those who do not care, are unwilling to compromise or recognize faults in their arguments. Thus we're left with a useless, unwinnable debate that's been had for too long on BBR.

ZZZZZZZ....
--
home
N3EVL

join:2004-12-13
Shrewsbury, MA

1 recommendation

Re: Over and underestimating...

Unwinnable? maybe; useless? not at all: there seems to be a never-ending stream of inane, silly or just plain uninformed arguments that must be challenged - wouldn't want those people to go away thinking they were correct;)

Hams may be the most vocal BPL opponents but there are a lot of users of that chunk of spectrum between 2 and 80 MHz that aren't quite as willing as some would like to have their rights to use that spectrum interfered with and will defend those rights - why would you expect it to be otherwise?

Apparently the EU think some kind of progress has been made on the interference issue; I'm waiting to hear what they think they have achieved. I guess we should count this as progress indeed considering the state of denial the BPL industry appears to have been in on this issue since day one. Do they now admit there is an interference problem to be addressed?

Make a convincing argument (with supporting technical facts) concerning how the interference will go away and you'll have a captive audience of hams. Make silly comments suggesting that YOUR right to broadband is somehow so important that it's perfectly OK to coincidentaly trash another resource and you'll have a real argument.
Purplemaid

join:2005-03-09
Tucson, AZ

Re: Over and underestimating...

Good response. Like many others they do not test the depth of the water is b4 jumping in. Infact we have a "coridor" here in Tucson that even local emergency services have problems with uniterupital comunication. I would like too see their respnse when they are on the receiving end of help that could get too them in time due to RFI and QRM.

rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

2 recommendations

said by TheMadSwede:

All sides, save those who do not care, are unwilling to compromise or recognize faults in their arguments. Thus we're left with a useless, unwinnable debate that's been had for too long on BBR.
I've grown tired of the debates here as well, although you'll find most of the pro-BPL banter is "give me fast cheap broadband in the country now" types of arguments. Ham radio certainly isn't the end-all-be-all of communications but it has its place, but BPL is far from what its proponents claim it to be.

Only time will tell who wins this, but with the BPL hype-athon in its third year, it's not much beyond several test beds and a couple commercial sites. DSL and cable grew much, much faster than this and that was arguably before broadband had widespread acceptance.

TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI

Re: Over and underestimating...

Well said. I personally don't know enough about either technology to make technical arguments for or against, but when I see some people so unwilling to even discuss a matter and other so willing to dive into something with no thought whatsoever, both sides end up reeking of cognitive dissonance and/or groupthink.
--
home

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12

1 edit

Heh

I knew a HAM operator....all he did was show us how cool it was to call a landline phone, talk to someone far away about nothing and mess with the drive through radio at Burger King.

Why is anyone trying to protect these folks again?

StormChaserOK

@midco.net

Re: Heh

i'm storm chaser for NWS And i'm ham radio operator. When i chase i cover a large amount of ground and drive in many states and areas mostly rural areas i have a great cell phone service to talk to NWS offices to relay reports for storms. But some times i get in a area with no towers for 50 miles or more. Yes there are these areas out on the plains. I need a ham radio to talk to a repeater 20-40 miles away that likes into a superlink of repeaters so i can talk state wide to other ham in skywarn networks or to the state NWS office. But sometime even those repeaters are out of range so i have get on 20 meters HF band to talk to a Skywarn weather net around 14.270mhz USB and relay reports that way so warning can go out and reports more creditable. yes NWS can use there radar to see some storms but i can see a storm up next to it. Giving a live report and tracks of the storm over cell phone and ham radio to the people at the NWS for issueing a warning so you people known there is a tornado or large hail coming. To this date i have made over 600 report of tornados to the NWS which issused warnings that their radar never picked up on that a tornado was there over 60% of report were made with ham radio.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12

Re: Heh

said by StormChaserOK:

i'm storm chaser for NWS And i'm ham radio operator. When i chase i cover a large amount of ground and drive in many states and areas mostly rural areas i have a great cell phone service to talk to NWS offices to relay reports for storms. But some times i get in a area with no towers for 50 miles or more. Yes there are these areas out on the plains. I need a ham radio to talk to a repeater 20-40 miles away that likes into a superlink of repeaters so i can talk state wide to other ham in skywarn networks or to the state NWS office. But sometime even those repeaters are out of range so i have get on 20 meters HF band to talk to a Skywarn weather net around 14.270mhz USB and relay reports that way so warning can go out and reports more creditable. yes NWS can use there radar to see some storms but i can see a storm up next to it. Giving a live report and tracks of the storm over cell phone and ham radio to the people at the NWS for issueing a warning so you people known there is a tornado or large hail coming. To this date i have made over 600 report of tornados to the NWS which issused warnings that their radar never picked up on that a tornado was there over 60% of report were made with ham radio.
I guess your point is even experienced HAM's don't know proper grammar and punctuation?

StormChaserOK

@midco.net

1 recommendation

Re: Heh

I'm a hunting, fishing, storm chasing redneck it's normal.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
Reviews:
·CenturyLink

4 edits

1 recommendation

I have found


BPL RF testing
 
 
A photo of one of the engineers working on BPL doing some end user field testing. Shown is a 1524 Mbps transmission. Notice the Daffey Duck form of the wave front. Unforunately these tests ended tragically as is illustrated by the court room artist's drawing.

•••••
KB2PSM

join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
said by Matt3:

I knew a HAM operator....all he did was show us how cool it was to call a landline phone, talk to someone far away about nothing and mess with the drive through radio at Burger King.

Why is anyone trying to protect these folks again?
You need to pick better friends.

Deciding that all of a group of people are a certain way because of one acquaintance, you may need to pick a different means of assessment.

If you have a real argument against amateur radio, its services or technology, then post it for further debate.

(Attacking one's grammar or spelling is not a valid argument- sorry)

Be well,
Rob