Yes, But Can Yahoo Compete with Piracy? Analysts giddy over restricted fee-based music Friday May 13 2005 12:19 EST Analysts and news outlets, many shackled in one way or another to Yahoo's ad empire, are a-flutter over Yahoo's new music service, chattering like winter teeth about stock drops and price-wars. Most are asking if Yahoo can compete with iTunes, when they should be asking: can anything compete with piracy? Dig through the trough of media and analyst coverage of the launch, and you'll find that 99% are ignoring the pink elephant in the room: the fact you can go to a site like Torrentspy or ISOHunt, plug in a band name and download an entire album - replete with cover-art - a month before official release - for free. Whether it's illegal or not doesn't make it any less real. The fact is that most broadband users are obtaining their music illegally, and will never be prosecuted by the music industry. Illegal music downloading is the very spine of the broadband adoption boom. ISPs are also ignoring that same pink elephant. How can one discuss the pay-music business model with a straight face while crack-proof DRM remains a pipe-dream, and the product being sold is freely available to the masses? Even Apple, the most successful of the music services, makes no money off of music. Steve Jobs once hinted that almost ninety-nine cents of every dollar goes directly back to the music industry. iTunes is essentially a massive iPod ad campaign. To undercut Apple's prices, imagine how miniscule Yahoo's profit margins are per song. What the hell are analysts excited about? Will anyone who has utilized a music torrent tracker believe that $7 a month to rent Windows Media only, Janus protected music is a good deal? Will any frequent visitor to IRC clap with glee at the device and burning restrictions imposed by Yahoo's new subscription service? Yes, you can strip the DRM for 79 cents a song. Does that compete with the fact a user with a 5Mbps cable connection can download a band's entire discography - without DRM - for free in an hour? Opera, Firefox, and Mac users couldn't even log in to the site on launch day. This is the service that will turn users away from the dark side of Bit Torrent or IRC and Newsgroup trading? In a month the DRM will be cracked and one subscriber will freely dole out music to twenty of his closest friends. Lets paint the service for what it really is: another way for Yahoo to sell ads, while the industry waits for DRM to mature. Now ignore that pink elephant in the corner. |
  MaxehWoot?
Premium Member
join:2002-12-23
Chicago, IL |
Maxeh
Premium Member
2005-May-13 12:11 pm
on average,you get around 10-15gb (more really) of ENGLISH mp3s released in warez scene daily,
on the internet, free always wins | |
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Re: on average,The Music Labels Really shot themselves in the foot, when they went after napser, and they've shot everyone else too...
With new p2p Technology showing up daily/weekly/monthly there's no way they can catch up, and with generation after generation getting more decentralized and private they let the cat out the bag, and it's a breeding like crazy | |
| | |  TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA |
TechyDad
Premium Member
2005-May-13 12:40 pm
Re: on average,I agree. With Napster they had a centralized system that could have been used to easily track and distribute payments. They could have enticed users in with free low-bitrate copies of the music (say, around FM radio quality), but charged for higher bitrate (e.g. CD quality) versions for the users to download. With a bit of work, the original Napster could have easily become an "iTunes" type of shop only without all of the illegal P2P trading as competition.
Instead, they took the "sue them out of existence until we figure this Internet thing out" approach. They wound up having to compete with a few dozen different P2P networks whose users distribute free (albeit illegal) versions of the same music they're trying to sell. They also wound up (by suing users) with some bad PR. | |
| | | |  King PDon't blame me. I voted for Ron Paul
Premium Member
join:2004-11-17
Murfreesboro, TN |
King P
Premium Member
2005-May-13 1:23 pm
Re: on average,The sad thing is that online Music doesn't HAVE to be this way. Because the "Industry" is looking to make money at every angle they can, we get crap like DRM and the DMCA. However, part of the blame does lie with the Artist, and I say that only because they don't bother to seek out an alternative, or else they don't care. Most artists have the clout to stand up and say no, but they choose not to. Who can blame them, they have bills to pay just like everyone else, and when they make about 1/10 of the money the labels do (off of THEIR music) who can really blame them.
No one can say that there isn't an alternative, however. See my sig for more details. If WE will spread the word about sites like this, then eventually everyone can benefit from it. | |
| | | |  sivranVive Vivaldi
Premium Member
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX |
to TechyDad
Unfortunately Label CEOs and big good-ol'-boy networks like the RIAA and MPAA can't see beyond the end of their collective snout. When they saw Napster it didn't occur to any of them that this might be the beginning of something new and exciting for their customers and potentially profitable for them the good ol' boys. Just like the good ol' boys of the MPAA saw the VCR as a profit-eating monster instead of a golden goose...
They're late to a game they don't know how to play, and where the other team already has a ten point lead. And they still haven't figured it out. | |
| | | | |  raydog1Feel Secure
Premium Member
join:2003-07-10
La Vergne, TN |
raydog1
Premium Member
2005-May-13 4:08 pm
Re: on average,More like, a 1,000,000 point lead.  The MPAA was hesitant, at first, to go the RIAA "sue them QUICK!" route. It's like someone in the organization (with brains) was saying, "Wait a minute. We can't fight this, but, we could make money off of it!" Unfortunately, there are way too many hands in the pot. . . something that has plagued the movie industry for decades. I think it will take many, many years before they figure out a way to make this work for both the consumer and the money-grubbing execs.  | |
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| t10
join:2003-05-25
Woodbridge, ON |
to Maxeh
said by Maxeh:you get around 10-15gb (more really) of ENGLISH mp3s released in warez scene daily, on the internet, free always wins yeah, keeping up is a b*tch aint it? PS. Whoever came up with the idea to relabel dance as trance, needs to be shot. twice. in the left testicle. | |
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Shame on you!Dance and Trance are too different types of Electronic music. Very different styles of music there. | |
| | | |  antdudeZombie Ant
Premium Member
join:2001-03-25
US
1 edit |
antdude
Premium Member
2005-May-13 2:00 pm
Re: Shame on you!said by blackjeep:Dance and Trance are too different types of Electronic music. Very different styles of music there. Yeah I agree with this too. Speaking of these two song genres, does anyone know where to download legal dance and trance musics from sources that get new songs often? Oh and for free and not streaming types. | |
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Re: Shame on you!For legal (i.e pay) electronic/dance music, checkout www.beatport.com
Beatport is considered the iTunes of the Electronic scene. | |
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justlittleoldme
Anon
2005-May-14 3:19 am
Re: Shame on you!"Beatport is considered the iTunes of the Electronic scene."
Actually, a lot of us are using Traxsource.com now. 320 kbps rips rock! | |
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carlosc1dbz to antdude
Anon
2005-May-15 12:01 am
to antdude
Well i would just like to state my opinions. I think that the music industry really messed up and had a good chance to work with napster. Also trying to stop p2p is imposible and is going to get worse, or better depending on how you look at it. All i know is that p2p is great.
carlosc1dbz | |
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to t10
Re: on average,said by t10: Whoever came up with the idea to relabel dance as trance, needs to be shot. Never did understand that. Not a single "trance" song out there is anywhere near transcendental EDM. I could list a few I think would fall into that category and NONE of them call their music trance. | |
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colorthelephant to Maxeh
Anon
2005-May-13 4:59 pm
to Maxeh
Well, it makes no sense to hide the fact that content gets pirated over the internet. The best yahoo can accomplish is to re-package that content for a subscription model all the while giving consumers everything they want-- ie the abiltiy to do whatever they want with the content and to have it ALL in ONE PLACE while shielding them from potential copyright infringement as a benefit. This is the kind of model that will perpetuate an ALL-IN-ONE content provider for software, text, multimedia, music, movies, etc, etc downloadable at ONE place... which is not what the yahoo offering is, but would have to move towards if it is to be successful in the long term.
And the coyright holders? If they don't agree, they can still deal with either limited royalties, or no royalties, their choice. | |
| | KearnstdSpace Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ |
to Maxeh
what the RIAA needs to do is bring all its members under one .com roof and offer their Entire libraries for download(pay service of course), i dont just mean the latest and greatest tunes but everything they have every published, with disc space so cheap today it wouldnt cost that much to build that kind of server space, i mean what they must be spending in legal fees for suing people could cover the cost of building this. | |
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Re: on average,Considering all the competitive backbiting in the industry and the incessant greed such a thing will not happen if the major labels held the reigns. Too many people will be demanding a bigger piece of the pie. Now get a group of indie labels together like that and you will have something. I think some are already joining forces like this. | |
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 Spiral5No Easy Way To Be Free.
Premium Member
join:2003-03-04
Baltimore, MD |
Spiral5
Premium Member
2005-May-13 12:16 pm
When I was your ageI had to ride my bike through the snow (sometimes uphill) in order to go to the record store and buy the new release from Jethro Tull, Led Zeppelin, or whoever, AND pay $2.99 for the album with money earned from my paper route. That's what we used to do, kiddies  | |
| |  cdruGo Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN |
cdru
MVM
2005-May-13 12:29 pm
Re: When I was your ageIt's a lot the same thing these days. Well. Close. These days, mom and dad drive around Johnny in their leather heated SUV to whatever he wants. They give him money for what he wants. They provide the DSL/Cable modem that he wants. Then he still just downloads it. Other then these minor differences, it's really the same circumstances. | |
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justlittleoldme
Anon
2005-May-14 3:31 am
Re: When I was your ageExcept that MTV came during the 80's and 90's and changed the way the music buying public perceives the whole industry. Kids see music more as a packaged product and really have no morality issues when it comes to swapping songs; to them its a way to say hi to a pretty girl or to keep each other informed on the latest and greatest...which has the lifespan of a flea and evaporates in no time flat. They don't have the same connection...just a whole difference experience when it comes to music and the artistry connected to it.
In 10 years there probably won't be any CDs or MP3s anyway and all the fighting back & forth will be for nothing. | |
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|  CPMBroadband, DSL, cable
join:2001-08-24
Denver, CO |
to Spiral5
Don't forget smoking the bong. | |
| |  sadowskiI Am My Own Doppelganger
Premium Member
join:2000-04-14
Buffalo, NY |
to Spiral5
said by Spiral5:I had to ride my bike through the snow (sometimes uphill) in order to go to the record store and buy the new release from Jethro Tull, Led Zeppelin, or whoever, AND pay $2.99 for the album with money earned from my paper route. That's what we used to do, kiddies You had a bike? You were really spoiled! I had to crawl through snow and rain and shrapnel just to look at the album covers because I couldn't afford to buy one. | |
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Re: When I was your ageActually it was uphill both ways... | |
| | | Spiral5No Easy Way To Be Free.
Premium Member
join:2003-03-04
Baltimore, MD |
to sadowski
Ha, it really was through the snow (I grew up in Buffalo) Yep...biked to Cavage's, University Plaza... said by sadowski: You had a bike? You were really spoiled! I had to crawl through snow and rain and shrapnel just to look at the album covers because I couldn't afford to buy one. | |
| | | | sadowskiI Am My Own Doppelganger
Premium Member
join:2000-04-14
Buffalo, NY |
sadowski
Premium Member
2005-May-13 3:58 pm
Re: When I was your agesaid by Spiral5:Ha, it really was through the snow (I grew up in Buffalo) Yep...biked to Cavage's, University Plaza... Thruway Plaza for me (Cheektowaga), or Two Guys or Twin Fair if I was really adventurous | |
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to Spiral5
"When I was your age...." |
said by Spiral5:I had to ride my bike through the snow (sometimes uphill) in order to go to the record store and buy the new release from Jethro Tull, Led Zeppelin, or whoever, AND pay $2.99 You had snow?!?!? I had to rollerskate 15 miles through mudslides to get to the local trading post. Not only did you have to wait four months before you get the latest Donnie Osmond 45 it would cost two coonskins and a musket just to look at the grooves on the B-side. You don't want to know how many pigs it cost to take the dang thing home. | |
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TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA |
TechyDad
Premium Member
2005-May-13 12:16 pm
Used CDs - Best way to obtain musicWith used CDs, you get a legal copy that you can then rip into whatever format and bitrate you want without any DRM getting in the way. Oftentimes, you can sometimes even find used CDs almost as cheap as their online counterparts. | |
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ortrythis
Anon
2005-May-13 12:24 pm
Re: Used CDs - Best way to obtain musicLibraries have new CD's. | |
| | | TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA |
TechyDad
Premium Member
2005-May-13 12:34 pm
Re: Used CDs - Best way to obtain musicYes, but notice that I said "get a legal copy." You can take a CD out of the library, but you aren't allow to rip a copy for your own personal use. However, you can buy a CD from a used CD shop and then rip that CD to whatever format you want. The only catch is that if you sell the original CD, you should delete all ripped copies of the songs. (But I normally keep the original in a safe place as a backup copy anyway.) | |
| | | |  wdoa
join:2001-10-16
Spencer, MA |
wdoa
Member
2005-May-13 2:32 pm
Re: Used CDs - Best way to obtain musicanybody remember how in the late 70s, into the 80s and 90s, record companies used to throw a fit over used record sales. I worked for one chain and the major labels would threaten to pull all their advertising dollars from the chain if they carried any used cd's or records. | |
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Artist start there own website and make money.Simple, if artists would remove the leesh from the RIAA neck and took there music into own hands they would make money, and people would buy it.
Sell a song for a few cents on your OWN website, release "online" only exclusive songs, give users what they want you can and will turn a profit plus still enjoy what you want to do in music.
For example, say U2 closed up shop and moved it all online. You think they would suffer in sales? heck no, people would of course still pirate, but not nearly as much as they used to U2 albums etc. | |
| |  TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY |
Re: Artist start there own website and make money.said by markopoleo:Simple, if artists would remove the leesh from the RIAA neck and took there music into own hands they would make money, and people would buy it. Sell a song for a few cents on your OWN website, release "online" only exclusive songs, give users what they want you can and will turn a profit plus still enjoy what you want to do in music. This is already happening. This is one of thing that terrifies the RIAA and it backers is the evolving loss of control of the music market. There are numerous sites where bands market their own works. Let me tell you the diversity of what is availabe is mind opening. | |
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DRM? No thanks!I won't pay ANYTHING for DRM'd music. I'd rather purchase the CD at a retail store and rip it myself -- which is exactly what I do. | |
| caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK
1 edit |
caco
Premium Member
2005-May-13 12:33 pm
Yes , it can compete!Everyday we here of torrent sites being shut down and every other week downloaders getting sued. Will there be people that would rather steal than pay? You bet, but the threat of a lawsuit or jail term will make those willing to download music without paying aka "stealing", less and less. Eventually you'll get to that point where the percentage of those stealing music over the internet will be dwarfed by those willing to pay 79-99 cents per song. Yahoo should be able to do as well or better than Itunes just based on the number of folks that use Yahoo on daily basis.
FLAME SHIELD ACTIVATED! | |
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••••••••••••• |  Doctor FourMy other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium Member
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX
1 edit |
DRM download services dwarfed by 1000:1 or moreThat obvious fact means that until the industry offers
some real incentive (not DRM or lawsuits) to stop p2p
use, it will outnumber the pay per download DRM infested
and subscription based offerings by a factor of more than
1000:1. For every file sold over the industry approved
services, hundreds, if not thousands are traded over the
p2p networks, IRC, Usenet, and private FTP sites. They
just can't compete, and may as well throw in the towel
and sell their content on the sharing networks using
systems like Creative Commons or Snocap. Until then, the
music and movie industries will continue on the same
self destructive path. | |
|  Geddy
join:2004-12-02
Westerly, RI |
Geddy
Member
2005-May-13 5:54 pm
DRM sucksI will definately not use any online music services until they ditch the lame DRM that comes with them. I buy CDs now, but im even losing confidence in that as record companies insist on making me unable to rip them to put on my mp3 player.
Theyre just encouraging us to download off p2p networks. | |
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Sam I AmI will not rent Green Day and Dre
I will not rent them
**AA, I am
I will not rent them here or there
I will not rent them anywhere
I will not rent them in a boat
I would not, could not, with a goat
I will not rent them in the rain
I will not rent them on a train
I will not rent them in a box
I will not rent them with a fox
I will not rent them in a house
I would not, could not, with a mouse
I will not rent Green Day and Dre
I will not rent them
**AA, I am..... | |
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Si, Se Puede!Some people have morals and conscious. Stealing is stealing. Many are fed up with blank files, fear of being sued and potential files infected with viruses.
Would you rather have your teenager getting all his/her music on p2p, usenets, irc or via a subscription service like Yahoo or Napster for a small monthly/yearly fee? This is great for parents and those of us who have to clean those infected machines. $60 is only a few hours work for a most everyone. Trying to track down and download a whole album on these services will take less then a few mins consistently. The same can’t be said for p2p. Some people value their time.
I already have a year’s service with Napster to Go prepaid and once that's gone, I'll probably switch to Yahoo's. I've been trying out Yahoo's service and it's not bad.
I don't have any issues with the DRM. I am renting the music so as long as the music works on my PC and on my mp3 player, it's not an issue. I have no need to make music cd’s. I have no desire to burn my current favorite songs on disc and hand it out to everyone I know.
None of these services stated they were rent to own. | |
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ngtmagicks
Anon
2005-May-14 4:58 pm
TimesharesWhile I agree with the whole yahoo vs the pirate vs itunes deal. It's a lose lose situationa when it comes to the consumer vs RIAA or consumer vs MPAA..
Myself, my major gripe, and the reason I feel the need to rip songs to/from cd's is that my major timeshares of listening either allow my use of the mp3 player.. ie:walking, bus, cycle; or the cd radio: car, living room Bose set. Could I move the living room scene to include my pc, yes. Yet I'm lazy, and I don't think my well working thousand dollar cd changer and amp need to be replaced.
Untill all the times I wish to listen to music can be covered, I will be against DRM'd music, or renting it.. | |
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Thats Dumb
Anon
2005-May-17 11:46 pm
Why is it pink?Seeing pink elephants is a euphemism for being drunk. The elephant in the room is a metaphor for a topic that everybody is aware of but nobody is willing to acknowledge. The two don't quite go together. | |
|  koma3504Advocate
Premium Member
join:2004-06-22
Granbury, TX |
koma3504
Premium Member
2005-May-19 10:58 am
on averageThey Just Need To Get Off There Duff.
Find a beter way to market Cd's
Make them Cheeper!!
Quit being so d*** Gready | |
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