 NetEng_Dude
join:2004-07-17 | BPL Hype A pyramid scheme to draw in gullible investors (suckers). Simple pump and dump. BPL is third-rate, backward-looking technology that will not be competitive with wireline, cable, fiber, and wireless. | |
|  | iffy
join:2004-02-07
Columbus, OH
| Re: BPL Hype I don't think google has any interest in being an ISP, or competing with broadband. There interest is much further down the road, when appliances can be plugged in, they can get info about brand, usage and other needs *without* having people actively submit any of this info. They can then turn around and sell this info. They are not setting themselves up to be an ISP, but an information broker. | |
| Ham band guy
join:2005-07-13
Minneapolis, MN
| BPL Infatuation Continues I agree with Nicole Klein on this one,it will probably get some attention then fade. As someone who if professionally involved with computer networking,and to a lesser extent,broadcasting(P.T. engineer at a local radio station), I just don't see power lines as a good meduim for high speed network traffic. Ingress and egress interference aside, many power lines are rather noisy across the HF spectrum and it would take power companies considerable work in cleaning them up. Also take in to account the inconsistent nature of power line impedances,varying loads,noise levels etc. Bottom line,in many cases the work involved for the real-world bandwidth(not 10-100meg,more likely 500k-1meg),makes other media,such as fiber and wireless seem like a much better investment.
Bob. | |
| | 
tapeloop
1959. I try to kick the ball. I miss.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| Re: BPL Infatuation Continues As a Ham operator though, wouldn't you be just a little biased? 
I'm apt to agree though: BPL just seems like all talk at this point.
--
Copyright infringement is illegal. Murder is illegal. Therefore, file sharing is murder. | |
| | 
LoneGreyWolf
Premium
join:2002-09-09
Bath, NY
clubs: 
| "Bottom line,in many cases the work involved for the real-world bandwidth(not 10-100meg,more likely 500k-1meg),makes other media,such as fiber and wireless seem like a much better investment."
What you have to remember though is that 500k-1meg to someone who's only option is dial-up this will be heaven so to speak. I know there are those that say BPL will not make it to rural areas such as mine, but I say lets wait and see what happens. I know that my Rural Co-op electric company that we get our electricity from is in the process of making all the meters a remote read. They don't send anyone out to read the meter and rely on the consumer to do it for them. My understandig of this system is that it's the same type of line used for BPL services. Even if my co-op doesn't have any plans for BPL, it may in the future.
As far as wireless goes, I have talked to local wireless comapnies and because of the lay of the land, putting up towers isn't viable. As it is, cell phone signal is hit or miss. | |
| | | 
Topmounter
Sent By Grocery Clerks
join:2001-02-20
Evergreen, CO
 ·Cox HSI
| Re: BPL Infatuation Continues
Someone help me out here:
Where is it said/proved that BPL is going to be viable in low density, rural environments?
I know the power lines are already in place in rural environments, but so are the telephone lines in most places. | |
| | | |
LoneGreyWolf
Premium
join:2002-09-09
Bath, NY
clubs:
1 edit | Re: BPL Infatuation Continues said by Topmounter  :
Someone help me out here:
Where is it said/proved that BPL is going to be viable in low density, rural environments? I know the power lines are already in place in rural environments, but so are the telephone lines in most places. It may or may not be, it still has to be proven and we will have to wait and see. I believe I said that, did I not? It's still a hope for us rural people, where the telcos and cable companies will not deploy. It's still a chance for us to come out of the stone age so to speak when it comes to the internet. It may not be the latest and greatest speeds, but I would be happy with a 500k-1meg connection. It's much much better than my 26.4k connection now and would make a world of difference. Trust me, doing research for projects and essays for college is hell on a 26.4k connection. What should take me a few hours a night takes me much much longer to do. Pages constantly time out, it takes minutes for pages to come up that don't time out. That's not even duting peak times when other college students are hitting the same data bases.
I'm happy that most of you have broadband, but don't have the attitude of just because I have it, it doesn't matter to me if you get it. You should hope that everyone can get it and not put down those who don't have it. Nor should you want to see technology like BPL fail, when it can be improved upon. So it fails, instead of saying well that's it, it should be tried again and improved upon to make it play nice. I'm sure it can be done, but don't kill it before it has a real chance to improve. | |
| | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: BPL Infatuation Continues said by LoneGreyWolf :I'm happy that most of you have broadband, but don't have the attitude of just because I have it, it doesn't matter to me if you get it. You should hope that everyone can get it and not put down those who don't have it. Nor should you want to see technology like BPL fail, when it can be improved upon. So it fails, instead of saying well that's it, it should be tried again and improved upon to make it play nice. I'm sure it can be done, but don't kill it before it has a real chance to improve. Have you even read any of the posts abot this?
The MAIN complaint is the INTERFERENCE issues that BPL has. This has NOTHING to do with denying anyone broadband. It has everything to do with the technology behind it.
The BPL people are now pushing one of two mantras:
1) There is no interference (already proven wrong many times over.)
2) Ham radio should be killed (rantings of people who otherwise have no other argument.)
Also, the rural argument doesn't hold water. If it was profitable, DSL and/or cable would already be there. The only way they would be there, in most cases, would be government regulations like those on the telcos. | |
| | | | | | 
zoom314
Superman
Premium
join:2001-04-30
Yermo, CA
| Re: BPL Infatuation Continues There is one BPL that is ok, It was endorsed by the ARRL as far as I've read, Anything else would not be good for anything and No I can't remember what It was[sorry]:(, But the ARRL would know I'd think.:D
--
Firefox forever!
»zoom314.blogspot.com/
»mysite.verizon.net/zoom314/ | |
| | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD | Re: BPL Infatuation Continues You are thinking of the Corridor sstem.
Seems interesting but I want to see the price difference in deployment. | |
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zoom314
Superman
Premium
join:2001-04-30
Yermo, CA
| Re: BPL Infatuation Continues Thanks, Moonpuppy, I knew someone here would know about It, If BPL wants to grow and survive to Me It's so far the only one to really shine, Of course with research You'd think there might be other forms of BPL that would work too. But who knows.:D
--
Firefox forever!
»zoom314.blogspot.com/
»mysite.verizon.net/zoom314/ | |
| | | | | |
LoneGreyWolf
Premium
join:2002-09-09
Bath, NY
clubs:
| said by moonpuppy :said by LoneGreyWolf :I'm happy that most of you have broadband, but don't have the attitude of just because I have it, it doesn't matter to me if you get it. You should hope that everyone can get it and not put down those who don't have it. Nor should you want to see technology like BPL fail, when it can be improved upon. So it fails, instead of saying well that's it, it should be tried again and improved upon to make it play nice. I'm sure it can be done, but don't kill it before it has a real chance to improve. Have you even read any of the posts abot this? The MAIN complaint is the INTERFERENCE issues that BPL has. This has NOTHING to do with denying anyone broadband. It has everything to do with the technology behind it. The BPL people are now pushing one of two mantras: 1) There is no interference (already proven wrong many times over.) 2) Ham radio should be killed (rantings of people who otherwise have no other argument.) Also, the rural argument doesn't hold water. If it was profitable, DSL and/or cable would already be there. The only way they would be there, in most cases, would be government regulations like those on the telcos. Have you read what I wrote? I said to wait and work with it so that it will play nice with things such as Ham radio and emergency freqs. I have never once said that Ham should be killed. I am not a ham operator, but I am the type of person that doesn't think anyones rights to do something legal should be trampled. I am an EMT and a firefighter and rely on my portable radio, Minitor pager and a scanner to here what's going on and when I need to get to a call. I don't want intereference either, but I am sure BPL can be made so that there is no intereference, but most of you don't want to give it that chance. That's where my issue is with you all. Your not giving it a chance and just saying kill it before improvements can be made. | |
| | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: BPL Infatuation Continues said by LoneGreyWolf :Have you read what I wrote? I said to wait and work with it so that it will play nice with things such as Ham radio and emergency freqs. I have never once said that Ham should be killed. I am not a ham operator, but I am the type of person that doesn't think anyones rights to do something legal should be trampled. I am an EMT and a firefighter and rely on my portable radio, Minitor pager and a scanner to here what's going on and when I need to get to a call. I don't want intereference either, but I am sure BPL can be made so that there is no intereference, but most of you don't want to give it that chance. That's where my issue is with you all. Your not giving it a chance and just saying kill it before improvements can be made. If you read another post I made concerning the Potomac, MD. trial, you would noticed it did notch out the Ham bands. HOWEVER, you can only notch so much. Other licensed services would be affected.
You Minitor pager might run in the VHF-Lo band (most likely in the 39MHz area.) This area is affected by the one BPL system out there (it hits almost everything from 2MHz to 80MHz.) Now, if you notch one area, you will still have to notch other areas. Problem is you can't mitigate everywhere. Someone has to suffer. You radio might not be affected if it is in the VHF-Hi area (around 150MHz.)
As for public safety frequencies, most urban areas are going to a trunking system using 800MHz. (Look what happened to Nextel in this arena.) Who is to say the BPL folks can't use the VHF-Lo region since their argument would be for public safety to upgrade to a trunking system.
Now, the Corridor system (I believe) is the one that poses the least amount of interference using Wi-Fi as part of the connection. The older Ambient technology is the big pollutor. | |
| | | | | | | |
LoneGreyWolf
Premium
join:2002-09-09
Bath, NY
clubs:
| Re: BPL Infatuation Continues "you Minitor pager might run in the VHF-Lo band (most likely in the 39MHz area."
Actually, we run on highband here for the most part, but when tones go out, they are usually put out on both high and low band. I just don't get to hear the low band tone outs.
I just want to see BPL tested until it can't be tested anymore. I don't want to see it killed before it's run through every test out there. I am sure that improvements can be made and I want it to have that chance.
Your right, I will never see DSL or cable where I live, but there is a chance that BPL can come here. The co-op that provides my electrice is going to a auto read system and will need to upgrade it's wiring anyways from what they have said. Who's to say that as they are upgrading, they don't put in wires capable of carrying BPL? | |
| | | | | | | | | N3EVL
join:2004-12-13
Shrewsbury, MA
| Re: BPL Infatuation Continues Your desire to see BPL tested and proven (or not) is generally commendable however, it is not unreasonable that those potentially affected by interference should be exceptionally suspicious of the activities of the BPL industry. Some things to consider concerning this debate:
-The BPL industry does not have a good track record in being up-front about the interference issue having been in denial for a long while, then claiming the interference which was measured has now magically been tamed. This aspect of the debate rages on.
-The FCC (at least the politicos within the FCC) appeared to jump on this technology prematurely and without due dilligence. Rather than take a hands-off wait and see approach or even attempt to enforce existing Part 15 rules, they seem to have gone out of their way to relax the rules, even ignoring their own technical findings. Understandably, this does not sit well with many!
-The news media has been lacking in dilligence in reporting both sides of this issue; many news items on the subject of BPL are little more than a restatement of comments made by representatives of the BPL industry.
-There are differences between the different BPL implementations that are often glossed over. The primary concern is with interference to HF by systems that operate below 30MHz. Those systems that operate in the low VHF range appear to be more benign. Those that operate in the Microwave range appear not to have any ill effects. The remainder are in-building systems that do not use overhead power lines or are some hybrid system that are not really BPL at all. It would be refreshing if those without current broadband options and desirous of having BPL (or even the FCC!) would take the time to familiarize themselves with these options and campaign for the more well-behaved variants - maybe they can have what they desire without destroying something valuable in the process. | |
| | | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by LoneGreyWolf :I just want to see BPL tested until it can't be tested anymore. I don't want to see it killed before it's run through every test out there. I am sure that improvements can be made and I want it to have that chance. The facts are it has been tested, here in this country and overseas. Each time, it has come to the same conclusion. There is interference. No ifs, ands or buts about it. The BPL system pushed by Ambient is the worst one. Now, the Corridor system is much friendlier system.
Want to find out how the BPL companies work?
Read this:
»Getting BPL to Work
Which became this:
»Drawing the Line
As for you getting BPL, meter reading is a money saving venture for the local energy co-op. BPL requires a bit more infrastructure than simple meter reading. | |
| 
Varlik
Without Honor You Will Never Be Free
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Anderson, SC
4 edits | The Fleecing of America For the Love of God Folks this isn't the way to deploy broadband to our nation. Not even to the rural areas. What it offers in return for what you'll pay is a joke. You're not going to get incredible speeds, you'll get speeds that many considered a joke now and will probably be even considered smaller by the time this "worthless beads and trinkets" of a plan takes off.
Ohhhhhh it's faster then dial up, Ohhhhh. Considering that a lot of folks with dial up don't get anywhere near 56k (53k) well that's not much of a feat now is it. $200 dollars for an adapter and the chance to have to replace or live with issues to other appliances and electronic goods already in your possession.  I think I'll pass.
The power companies are just using this for an alternate revenue source. They're getting desperate to find income not already gobbled up by their share holders and executive's. The fact that IBM and Google are blowing money on this is even more ludicrous. And should raise concern over why they are really doing this. For me it raises concern over the leadership and management or those companies.
--
"Sir SIR! We don't use DHCP servers. We only use IBM & Microsoft servers." From there my call to tech support went steadily downhill. | |
| | 
Its Me Again
@170.190.x.x
 from:
guitarzan
| Re: The Fleecing of America [/quote=Varlik]The power companies are just using this for an alternate revenue source. They're getting desperate to find income not already gobbled up by their share holders and executive's.
This is a bad statement. Outside of the few states that regulate prices, most electric companies can up their prices at will. Since we do not have an true option of where to get our power, we are at their mercy. Your only other choice is to live "off the grid", for most people, this is not an option. | |
| | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: The Fleecing of America said by Its Me Again:
This is a bad statement. Outside of the few states that regulate prices, most electric companies can up their prices at will. Since we do not have an true option of where to get our power, we are at their mercy. Your only other choice is to live "off the grid", for most people, this is not an option.
And look what happened in California and with Enron.
I doubt many people will be willing to pay for BPL if they do not benefit from it. Public opinion and outcry can sometimes be very powerful. | |
| | |
Varlik
Without Honor You Will Never Be Free
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Anderson, SC
4 edits | said by Its Me Again:
This is a bad statement. Outside of the few states that regulate prices, most electric companies can up their prices at will. Since we do not have an true option of where to get our power, we are at their mercy. Your only other choice is to live "off the grid", for most people, this is not an option.
It doesn't have anything to do with price increases. It's an alternate revenue source. Do you think you're going to pay $5, $10, $15, $20 for this? Guess again it will be more especially once USF and other Unfees are added in.
And despite some states not having a direct governing body (appointed by the state government) to handle price increases from the power companies. The States do have a general governing body their State Senate and Congress who will react in most cases to any excessive pricing increases.
For them to pull the kind of revenue that the power companies are looking to generate from BPL by just raising power bills instead, that would be a significant increase. One that would never get off of the ground, but BPL could get off the ground.
And with a HSI monopoly in the areas that it would be operating in it offers a big income source in Power company's eyes. Though they're wrong because while they might very well get BPL off the ground it will only go down in a fiery crash. Because while this turkey of an idea may get off the ground it will never fly once it's realities hit home.
--
"Sir SIR! We don't use DHCP servers. We only use IBM & Microsoft servers." From there my call to tech support went steadily downhill. | |
| 
Shack
join:2002-01-17
Bloomington, IN
·Insight Communicat..
| Run fiber! What I want to see is power companies to use there infrastructure to run fiber. They have the right of way to bury or string on polls fiber, why not deploy a real solution along side there power lines? I understand it would be very expensive, but the long term benefits would be great. That is my silly little dream anyway. | |
| |
too much sense
@verizon.net
| Re: Run fiber! said by "Shack":
What I want to see is power companies to use there infrastructure to run fiber. They have the right of way to bury or string on polls fiber, why not deploy a real solution along side there power lines? I understand it would be very expensive, but the long term benefits would be great. That is my silly little dream anyway.
Huh? That would make far too much sense. You can't expect that to ever happen in the real world. Better to have pie-in-the-sky fantasy technology, to woo investors with, rather than a ho-hum plan with a solid technological foundation. Execs live in the upper part of the power / money stratosphere - the rarified air up there deprives them of oxygen you see, that's why they make the sorts of decisions that they do. | |
| hedyd4u
Premium
join:2003-12-16
Schenectady, NY | Is this just a write off? IBM and Google want to write off some money and this looked like the perfect tool. See BPL is good for something. | |
|
imho
|  Google wants BPL for Broadband Video on Demand
--------------------------------------------
Time is Ripe for Video Blogs
Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:21 am
Within minutes of the tragic London bombings last week, news sites showed location video footage - mainly from camera phones - sent by members of the public. According to director of news Helen Boaden, the BBC quickly received 30 video clips, which aired on broadcasts and online within 20 minutes of the attack. Boaden called it "a new world" of digital media distribution.
Vamsi Sistla, ABI Research's director of residential entertainment research, agrees: "Now, anybody who has a voice has a means to express it." Many of those video clips were carried on Web sites such as Yahoo!, Google and MSN, highlighting what Sistla calls the latest trend in digital home "entertainment": the move by large Internet operators into a realm previously dominated by cable companies and telcos offering broadband services.
The signs are everywhere. Microsoft is collaborating with France Telecom to produce cutting-edge digital media products. Google, with a new video service, has just announced an investment in a company providing broadband through powerline, and is rumored to be buying dark fiber bandwidth. China's Shanda Interactive has released a set-top box, and Intel is investing in movie distribution.
This attempt by some Internet giants to take advantage of the digital home media revolution is discussed in the latest update of ABI Research's "Residential Entertainment Technologies Research Service."
Until recently, insufficient bandwidth to homes, combined with the entertainment industry's grip on content licensing, made home entertainment unattractive to the big Internet players. Now, both those conditions are changing. "They know it's time for them to take advantage of their brands and their marketing relationships to pursue the next generation digital home and digital media services," Sistla explains. "They are creating the 'Wal-Marts of the World Wide Web', and aim to offer everything and anything to the widest audience. We will soon see true 'video blogs' on their sites."
»www.mobiledia.com/news/32845.html | |
| |
imho
| Re: Google wants BPL for Broadband Video on Demand Thursday, July 07, 2005
Google’s high-volt vault into VOD
Google and a few of its friends have decided to short-circuit the middlemen and plug directly into your electric company to sell a full range of broadband services, including potentiallly limitless video on demand.
While cable and telephone companies long have scrambled with varying degrees of success to become full-service, triple-play providers of video, Internet and voice services, the third line into every home, the power line, has been quietly buzzing along and largely overlooked. Not any more.
Google, Hearst Corp. and Goldman Sachs have put $100 million into a private company called Current Communications Group, which says it can send and receive high-speed Internet signals to homes and businesses via the existing electric grid. The tres unlikely amigos are teaming up at Current Comm with earlier investor John Malone, the man who built Tele-Communications Inc. into a cable TV behemoth before he sold it to AT&T at the peak of ripeness in 1999.
Several small broadband power line (BPL) start-ups have spent a long time trying, without much technical or commercial success, to safely coax satisfactory Internet-protocol signals through electric lines. The plan was to provide an electrifying alternative to the enviable businesses of the high-priced cable guys and the low-tech telephone companies. To date, various flavors of BPL have moved out of the lab and onto a few hundred utility poles in a small number of experiments.
But the evident success of a 50,000-home pilot in Cincinnati has turned Current Comm into Google’s preferred partner in what appears to be no less an effort than delivering unlimited video on demand (VOD) to any home, shop or office with access to electricity.
»newsosaur.blogspot.com/2005/07/g···vod.html | |
| | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Looks like the anonymous BPL troll either changed ISP's or has a friend now. How special.
Fact is BPL doesn't have the speed to compete with either cable, DSL or fiber.
Weak attempt at best. Try some better material. | |
| | |
imho2
| Re: Google wants BPL for Broadband Video on Demand
»www.forbes.com/feeds/general/200···371.html
....clipped.....
"Meanwhile, early BPL technology was slow and plagued with problems. Download speeds were only a little better than dial-up service, and radio operators complained the equipment caused interference.
Newer semiconductor technology has solved interference problems, industry officials claim. At the same time, BPL now offers both downloads and uploads at 3 megabits per second _ double the speed of DSL, and faster than cable at a comparable price.
But performance may have become a moot point because of utilities' lateness to the broadband business.
Today, with cable modem and DSL available to an estimated 90 percent of all households, there really isn't much of a market left for utilities offering BPL, said Jim Penhune, an analyst with technology research company Strategy Analytics.
``I just think the timing of it is wrong,'' Penhune said. ``Cable (and telephone) companies are so far ahead ... it's a little hard for me to see how a third class of network is going to be viable.''
BPL proponents disagree, of course.
The recent interest from the big tech companies shows that the technology still has plenty of promise, said Brett Kilbourne, director of regulatory services for the trade group United Power Line Council. Along with Google and IBM, Motorola in May announced it was developing BPL technology and said it was teaming up with a rural South Carolina utility to launch BPL broadband service. Last year, Mitsubishi Electric Power Products Inc. also announced it was exploring BPL technology.
At the same time, Kilbourne and other proponents say, there are still plenty of households _ 13 million by some counts _ that aren't able to get broadband access because cable and telecom companies simply don't offer it in their areas.
Also driving interest in BPL are recent court decisions that limit Internet companies' access to cable and phone lines.
Atlanta-based Earthlink Inc., for instance, has run several trials in North Carolina and elsewhere and is very encouraged, said Earthlink vice president Kevin Brand. " | |
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BPL Infatuation Continues