Shills Attack San Fran Wi-FiThink tanks fire up their anti-muni engines ( old news - 10:34AM Friday Aug 19 2005) tags: wireless · Op/Ed · municipalSan Francisco is barely in the planning stages of a new city-wide Wi-Fi system, the city's mayor open to ideas on how best to "unwire" all 49 square miles. The goal is 1Mbps service to everyone, with poorer communities receiving access for free. Daydream or not, mayor Gavin Newsom claims it will cost taxpayers nothing. As we saw in Philly, bell funded think tanks are already trying to derail the effort. You see in California - unlike Philly - bell lobbyists haven't yet been able to convince lawmakers to ban community broadband "for your own good". That has forced them to fall-back on what these think tanks do best: disinformation & fear mongering. Like clockwork, once a month Sonia Arrison rants against the evil that is community broadband over at TechNewsWorld. This month she takes aim at San Francisco's plan before she's actually even seen it. The plan is unnecessary apparently, because the city currenly exists in a state of broadband nirvana, says Arrison. "Fees for broadband have been dropping at an amazing rate," claims Arrison, who works for the Pacific Research Institute. The Institute - surprise surprise - gets paid by Verizon and SBC. "DSL service used to cost around US$50, but now one can buy SBC's DSL for $14.95," says Arrison. "Strangely, these facts don't seem to resonate with local government bureaucrats. Instead, they think that residents of San Francisco should have "nomadic" wireless broadband access and they should have it now." The nerve! Can we impeach them? I won't say too much about how SBC's $14.95 DSL deal is really a one year, new user only introductory offer, which requires users also pay for a local phone line (real price: $30-$60). I won't lament Sonia's use of misleading FCC zip code statistics to suggest public Wi-Fi isn't necessary. I won't ramble about how in some cases muni-competition helps lower prices via competition. I won't go on at length about how her frequently used list of "muni-broadband failures" has been completely discredited by multiple organizations. These facts wouldn't resonate with Sonia, because she's got a paid job to do: convince you that muni-broadband is as senseless and evil as paving roads with puppies. In reality it's a niche solution that fails or succeeds based on the quality of the plan. In this case, we haven't seen the plan yet. We're sure San Franciscans appreciate your advice, Sonia, but they're better served listening to someone who isn't being paid to manipulate them. Related:- Pennsylvania Plays Stimulus Keep Away
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  dadkins Can you do Blu? Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA
·Comcast
2 edits | Free or cheap wireless is bad? How? Because it will make the big guys have to restructure their pricing schemes to still have customers? Waaaaa!!!!!
S.F. has ALOT of shops with free access, but City-wide? Hell yeah! 
More news: »www.ecommercetimes.com/rsstory/45585.html
"Cities are starting to realize this is not a 'nice to have' anymore," said Paul Butcher, Intel's state and local government marketing manager. "To operate efficiently as a government, to enable business to compete and provide adequate resources to cities, you pretty much have to do this."
Intel backing this? | |
|  |   justncredible
@rr.com
| Re: Free or cheap wireless is bad? Gavin hopes it cost nothing,, HA what a joke, so that means there be be no city workers that deal with this project??? No line maintenance, no tech support. Yeah this is so full of shit. Who do they expect to believe a company will just walk in and pay for all this??? Wireless at that, what city has paying wireless customers? That is in direct compentiton with major cable and DSL providers.
If some make believe company was going to build this, WHY is the mayor taking credit???? Only reason a mayor endorses a private company as he claims this is, is he is PAID to do it.
If one city worker spends 5 mins writing a plan on this then the mayor has lied, and taxpayers are wasting money for something that will never be used. | |
|  |  |   Grammer101
@verio.net | Re: Free or cheap wireless is bad? Do you proofread your posts, or just let your dog write them? ...a little coherence pleeeeeeese. | |
|  |  |   Euchre
@sprint-hsd.net
| justn: Nobody will use it? Is that why people buy wireless cards and connect to neighbor's access and steal bandwidth? Nobody wardrives looking for open access either, do they? Guess you've never seen a laptop running wireless. This is a CITY, people all over the place like ants, and lots of them have wireless internet capable devices. The reason a municipality would pay for this is stated in the articles about it - it's mainly adding to their infrastructure. If a city sets up the nodes to also be the connection to power grid status devices, city workers have laptops in their work vehicles to communicate (like umm, the police do?), then there's reasons to have it around just to support that. Just imagine, soon they can have a traffic camera that's wireless, with the redlight ticketing via IP.
grammer: It's not wise to criticize grammar by spelling your ID 'grammer'. | |
|  |   packetscan Premium join:2004-10-19 Bridgeport, CT clubs: | Break the monopolistic Hold that the Bells have..
Do they want to be broken up again? keep trying to push these municipal projects and it will happen soon enough. -- Who do you want to pay off today? | |
|  |   Titus Pullo I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| With the market nearly consolidated muni-bb has nary a chance when knuckle-draggers control the discourse using preemptive attacks (ring a bell?) via disinformation.
Over and over again, the marketing wings of USACorp. play to the lowest common denominator (hot-button ignorance) in order to swing public opinion in their favor.
The fact that they attack initiatives before the actual plans are on the table should give pause, but assclowns rule the day -- flailing commie rhetoric and spouting entitlement nonsense like the good little brownshirts pawns they represent are. -- "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
|   senatedon
join:2002-03-18 Mechanicsburg, PA | Karl, it's you with the misinformation Again...and again, Pennsylvania did NOT ban municipal broadband. Pennsylvania now has in place a right of first refusal (ROFR) plan.
The ROFR works - Philly is an example. | |
|  |   Karl Bode News Guy join:2000-03-02 | Re: Karl, it's you with the misinformation Semantics to make you and your bosses in Harrisburg feel better for selling out to corporate interests. Any muni in PA now has to go to Verizon for approval.
Philly was allowed through because it quickly became a Verizon PR nightmare. | |
|  |  |   calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: Karl, it's you with the misinformation Amen.
ROFR not a ban? ROFL!
calvoiper | |
|  |   G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17 Schenectady, NY
| right of first refusal? Why the hell does verizon have that right in the first place? So, Philly got the 'exception', but every-other-place in PA got hosed.
What does this mean for other Pennsylvania towns? Well, they're pretty much screwed. They are required to give the local telcos the right of first refusal for municipal high-speed Internet services. Companies that refuse to let the cities go forward with their own internet services are required to provide a similar service within a 14 month window.
Verizon can go to hell before they have ANY rights to stop any competitor, be it city/state/private/public. Guess what verizon, you didn't pay for the telephone lines, the users of the telephone paid for it, but GUARANTEEING you a profit during your Ma Bell years. Now Verizon is just looking to screw everyone, and prevent any competition.
Though personally, I think that having any government agency run anything is a pretty bad idea, it's better than letting verizon steamroll their monopoly engine. -- Grand Poobah | |
|  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20 | Re: Karl, it's you with the misinformation G,
where do you keep coming up with this notion that Verizon didn't pay for the lines and that the users did? Users, last time I checked, bought phone service, not stock. | |
|  |   cao1964
join:2000-08-09 Danville, PA | Hey I live in PENN, and you can call it what ever, you want, in the end its the same.
They have lobbied her to stop any kind of FIOS so why not wireless also. | |
|  |  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| regardless of what the actual bill says or mandates, Karl has the absolutely correct interpretation of the intent, so don't give him no sh1t.
Pretend what you have to pretend to make yourself feel better, but don't try convince people on this forum that Pennsylvania didn't ban municipal broadband. | |
|  |  |   senatedon
join:2002-03-18 Mechanicsburg, PA
·Comcast Digital Vo..
·Comcast
| Re: Karl, it's you with the misinformation Dude: you are misinformed. Read the law. PA doesn't ban any municipal broadband. PA has a ROFR for municipal broadband that has fees.
If Smallville or SanFran wants to give away service to its residents, it can, and is not prohibited.
Once the municipality wants to use taxpayer dollars to compete against private business for a market share, it must give the ILEC a ROFR. | |
|  |  |  |   Karl Bode News Guy join:2000-03-02
Host: Road Runner PC gaming GAMES PC gaming Tech
4 edits | Re: Karl, it's you with the misinformation quote: PA doesn't ban any municipal broadband. PA has a ROFR for municipal broadband that has fees.
Your bosses in Harrisburg have pandered to Verizon and installed them as the gatekeeper in a process they have no business being a part of. quote: Once the municipality wants to use taxpayer dollars to compete against private business for a market share, it must give the ILEC a ROFR.
Semantics again. Any muni who wants to charge for their service (even if just to cover network costs) has to beg Verizon's permission. Verizon then says "No, we may install service there," and delays the process indefinitely by dicking about in the legal system, showing just enough skin to keep regulators off their tail.
In the meantime the town that wanted to provide service, can't.
It's a ban. It's just more cleverly constructed to avoid backlash. | |
|   cdigioia Premium join:2005-06-08 korea, repub | Cost...? I somehow doubt they can do it without using a lot of tax dollars though...
& isn't WiMax (in theory) just around the corner? That would seem much cheaper to implement and maintain... | |
|   testin123
@verio.net | Lets call Sonia!! How can we contact Sonia, to tell her what we really think of her SBC-ad? I doubt Sonia has any mirrors in her home. How can she look at herself, when she is bought, and paid for by SBC? | |
|   broadbander
join:2005-07-21 Brooklyn, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| supportive, but spectical This plan may be a little optimistic. Offering free Internet service to an entire city, while a lovely idea, is costly and extremely difficult. I wonder where this revenue and coming from and if it is in fact coming from extra revenues, where have those revenues been going?
I am all for municipilization of broadband as I think I've made clear in this forum many times. However, I don't know that I'm so keen on free broadband access for an entire city. Is the fiber infrastructure already there to do it? There are many logistics questions.
For now, it has one hand with a thumb up and the other with a pad in my hand. I'm sure I'll be writing alot about San Fran's decision in the coming months. | |
|  |  Galvage
join:2004-02-11 Taconite, MN
| Re: supportive, but spectical do you have any idea how small sf is? its roughly 4 miles across. With that kind of size they could literally just put a linksys high gain on a tall building and get range for up to half that distance easy.
also this wireless system is supposed to be similar to that used in the northwest rural areas and allow the police to quickly download information about suspects on the fly. | |
|  |  |   broadbander
join:2005-07-21 Brooklyn, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | Re: supportive, but spectical "San Francisco is barely in the planning stages of a new city-wide Wi-Fi system, the city's mayor open to ideas on how best to "unwire" all 49 square miles. "
49 square miles is alot more than 4 miles across.
And yes, I know how big San Fran proper is. I lived there for 3 years. | |
|   Matt Quitting Caffeine - Argh Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC | Stupid shill Does she even know her analogy is wrong?
The DMV is a state run agency, not a city department. | |
|   Bill Light Up The Halo Premium,VIP join:2001-12-09 clubs:
| Free Wi-Fi? Uh... "It must be free for certain segments of the city population," Newsom said. Those who can afford to may have to pay a minimal cost, he said, but the plan probably won't cost taxpayers anything, he said. Directly from the linked article.
Then it's not completely free.... -- Folding Monitor Network Status Weather Stats | |
|  |  Fishie
join:2003-01-14 Riverside, CA | Re: Free Wi-Fi? Uh... Exactly. The people who will pay, will be paying for the poorer people that can't afford it. It will definitely cost the residents money in the end. | |
|   badtrip East Bay Premium join:2004-03-20 Albany, CA | SF is already working on free (for most) wifi Maybe Gavin should talk to these guys:
»www.archive.org/web/sflan.php
Internet access should be free, I applaud the mayor for being forward thinking... | |
|  |  aurora00
join:2005-01-27 San Francisco, CA
| Re: SF is already working on free (for most) wifi They should definitely talk. If not getting for funded they can at least brief the city on issues they've faced.
Unfortunately services of sflan seems to be marginal. I have used many free service from cafes or even took free ride on open hotspot. But I have yet to receive any signal from a sflan node. | |
|  |  blutodad
join:2005-05-18 Olympia, WA
| internet access should be free, wifi should be free,PCs should be free, housing should be free, college should be free, transportation should be free, food should be free, hell everything should be free!! its not fair if anyone has to pay for anything. its not fair i have to work dammit!!! life should be free. then i could spend all my time trying to find the dope you guys are smoking......... FOR FREE!!! | |
|   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Erie, PA
| I don't understnad you guys You complain about the "bought and paid for by (insert company here)" politicians; you complain about corruption, and all the ridiculous new laws the techno-ignorant politicians want to institute; then in the next sentence you clamor for those same politicians to set up your muni-networks(where the government is in direct competition with commercial enterprises), and even better you believe them when they say things like "it won't cost one taxpayer anything ever". It's amazing how when it's something you want suddenly the politicians are telling the truth. -- Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
|  |   Minister
join:2002-01-02 Fleeting
| Re: I don't understnad you guys It's not the "same politicians". It's fed and state vs. town and city. Granted the latter can be corrupt too, but many of these projects are born out of a desire to see the community develop. Laws banning such projects are born out of simple greed. | |
|  |  |   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Erie, PA
| Re: I don't understnad you guys said by Minister :It's not the "same politicians". It's fed and state vs. town and city. A politician is a politician, and I think you'll find that local politicians tend to be more corrupt as not many people care about local politics so no ones watching. -- Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
|  |  |  |   broadbander
join:2005-07-21 Brooklyn, NY | Re: I don't understnad you guys Its pretty safe to say that in the one of the most, if not the most, politically active cities in the entire world, people are watching. | |
|  |  |  |  |   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Erie, PA
| Re: I don't understand you guys said by broadbander :Its pretty safe to say that in the one of the most, if not the most, politically active cities in the entire world, people are watching. Wanna bet on how deep those people look, betcha it's no deeper than "what I want, now!", just like the rest of the world. -- Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
|   Orwell1984
@fdn.com
| Ideas All This fuss over the Mayor of San Francisco being open to ideas? The Mayor stated goals and is open to ideas about how they can be implemented.For this you have all of the anti muni nuts and doom sayer telco shills freaking out.Why not let a plan be developed before knee jerk reactions start?It is completely asinine to try to shoot holes in a plan which does not even exist yet. You can not make any logical arguments either way at this point. Some people don't really care about such things as reason or common sense,only maintaining the telco party line regardless of reality. | |
|  |   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Erie, PA | Re: Ideas said by Orwell1984:
For this you have all of the anti muni nuts and doom sayer telco shills freaking out. says the guy named Orwell1984 -- Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
|  |  |   Orwell1984
@fdn.com
from: dadkins 
| Re: Ideas Do you have a better way to describe people who argue against a plan before there even is one? | |
|  |  |  |   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Erie, PA
1 edit | Re: Ideas How about we not worry about a plan when we as the government shouldn't be trying to directly compete with private industry. If the government wants build the infrastructure and let people like earthlink and other small ISP's compete on it, you've got my support; but you won't see that cause it would require government to give up some control, the ability to use it as a political bargaining chip (ala: free service to the "poor"), and a potential revenue stream.
--edited for clarity-- -- Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
|  |  |  |  |   Orwell1984
@res.rr
| Re: Ideas Like I said knee jerk reactions.Do you fear ideas? Many an innovation has started with an idea. Out of curiosity, which private company is planning WiFi in San Francisco that they would be competing with? The plan may be absolute crap, most are.But it is still idiotic to judge any plan either pro or con if it does not exist yet.This is not intended as a personal attack.To me both corporations and government are both necessary evils.All I am suggesting is keeping an open mind and not condemning a plan before it is formed.Yes the odds are against it but they might come up with something good. | |
|  raythompsontn
join:2001-01-11 Oliver Springs, TN
| Subsidizing the Lazy, Again Why should the poor ride on some else's wallet for a service that is not a necessity for life. Food, shelter, medical, perhaps. But wireless access! Give me a break! If they are so poor why do they have a computer that allows wireless access?
It is utterly disgusting to subsidize the lazy, incompetent, and just plain worthless because they do not want to work. Yes, there are those that have difficulties and cannot work. They are largely the exception. | |
|  |   broadbander
join:2005-07-21 Brooklyn, NY | Re: Subsidizing the Lazy, Again just plain worthless How charming to characterize life in such a way. | |
|  |  WirelessMajr Premium join:2005-08-03 College Place, WA
| Why is it that the poor are always characterized as lazy, incompetent, and plain worthless? And who says they do not want to work? I know far more people who are reasonably well off, who are the laziest morons known to man.
Second, I don't know where you get or got the notion that computers that allow wireless access are expensive. I can take a P2 266MHZ with 256MB ram and hook up a USB wireless adapter to it, and have it run just fine. | |
|  |  |  raythompsontn
join:2001-01-11 Oliver Springs, TN
1 edit | Re: Subsidizing the Lazy, Again said by WirelessMajr :Why is it that the poor are always characterized as lazy, incompetent, and plain worthless? Stereotyping. When the majority of a group fits a pattern, then the pattern fits. For every poor person you find I can show you 50 people that just do not want to work because they can get handouts for doing nothing.
Why should these people be subsidized by others? If you choose to not work, then you should get nothing. Starve for all I care. I don't like working two or three months out of each year to pay taxes supporting others who choose not to work and instead rely on social programs.
These social programs were designed to help those that are down on their luck, it happens. The programs were not designed to be a lifestyle.
I know people in TN that are bitching because their state health plan is being cut. They don't like that they have unlimited doctors visits, but only can have 30 days per year in a hospital and a maximum of six prescriptions. They pay nothing for a program that provides more benefits than what I pay $1200 a month.
And now a major city wants to provide them with a service for nothing that I pay $45.00 a month.
Something is seriously wrong with the handout system of the US and the reinforcement of a lifestyle that contributes nothing to society and is little more than blood sucking vermin. | |
|  |  |   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Erie, PA
| said by WirelessMajr :Why is it that the poor are always characterized as lazy, incompetent, and plain worthless? And who says they do not want to work? Cause those who aren't don't remain poor. -- Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
|   Zuhaib King Of Fools Premium,ExMod 2001 join:2000-06-29 San Francisco, CA clubs: 
| San Francisco does something... With no cost to tax payers.. NOT! I am a local from SF, born and raised here and i just dont see it happening. And a lot of them are tech, not political (tho can you really expect a socialist system like SF not doing something without wasting tax money?). The tech problems are a lot like the problems cell phone companies had in SF, the hills. Even today, in San Francisco its easy to go in to cell phone/tv dead spots (I live in a TV dead spot), so what hope does Wi-Fi having making it to all of SF. Installing towers? Ha! SF gives a hell of a time to cell phone companies, and once people learn that a wi fi relay is going up in there area they are going to fight it teeth and nail. So where can this service go up with little problem or fight. Downtown. So now the idea of giving wi fi to everyone is not really true, because only a small % will be getting the Wi fi. And someone posted a link that people that cant "afford" it will only get it for free. Well, if your in downtown with a laptop, more then likely you will be one of the paying group. And that assumes no one abuses the system and get there name added to the free list, i mean how are they going to check? That must take money to cross check (and if they dont, everyone will get free Wi Fi just like everyone used to get free lunch at school) This program will not be free of taxpayer money, what we are going to see is peoples tax money being used to fund the system, and then those good tax paying people will have to pay to use the Wi-Fi, only when they are in downtown, while people who have not soul will cheat there way on to the free list and take full use of it. What i want to say to Gavin, use the money for schools in San Francisco, the San Francisco school system is at its worst. Schools closing, teachers leaving, this is the real need for San Francisco, NOT Wi Fi. -- I am Pakistani And No! I do not own a 7/11! And my NAME is not Apu! | |
|  aurora00
join:2005-01-27 San Francisco, CA
| Citywide Wifi, can't wait! Free Wifi everywhere? Who wouldn't love that? I'd say 5 years from now any city that does not have universal (preferrably free) internet access would have undermine their status as a serious place to live and work.
SBC should shut up and do something about their pathetic DSL upload speed. I'd love to see Google drum up some competition. | |
|   realist
@ca.frontier | Great... Another reason for the telcos to rethink their efforts to roll out ERDSL, FTTP, FTTN... | |
|   dadkins Can you do Blu? Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Wi-Fi antenna? Wi-Fi this! |
Use this puppy as the antenna! | |
|  |  |   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Erie, PA
1 edit | Re: Newsbreak: San Francisco has poorer communitie said by funchords :I've seen the "for rent" ads. Where are the poorer communities? poor is such a relative term. It could, for instance, apply to the income level below which there are enough people to guarantee a mayors re-election. -- Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
|  |   AuraReturn Premium join:2003-08-18 San Francisco, CA clubs:
| said by funchords :The goal is 1Mbps service to everyone, with poorer communities receiving access for free. I've been to San Francisco. I've seen the "for rent" ads. Where are the poorer communities? Rent and houses are expensive here. If you don't want to pay for internet, don't come here. It's not worth the rent. If you love diversity among people, religion, food, etc, and you love the idea of being open minded then you better get your ass here even if it costs you an arm and a leg. | |
|  |  |   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Erie, PA
| Re: Newsbreak: San Francisco has poorer communitie said by AuraReturn :Rent and houses are expensive here. Just out of curiosity, you ever wonder why houses are expensive there. I'll give you a hint one part of the giant "thing" that causes the prices to be that high involves shopping carts. -- Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   JakCrow
join:2001-12-06 Palo Alto, CA | In the places you obviously didn't visit. | |
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