 Xure
join:2003-11-14
Beverly Hills, CA | Finally! FInally, some people with vision! | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
 ·Qwest.net
| Re: Finally! Wow this looks interesting. but you know something this will be shot down by the RIAA because they want money every time the song is played. Having said this Sony is one of the big 4 behind the RIAA so who knows what will happens. Unfortunately I will not be holding my breath.
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Low voltage Tech's are wimps, Real tech's use 45 pound filament transformers, plate voltages no less then 2400 volts with at least 10 amp's lighting 8877 triodes...BPL I'm coming to get you. | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
 ·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Finally! said by Transmaster  :Wow this looks interesting. but you know something this will be shot down by the RIAA because they want money every time the song is played. Having said this Sony is one of the big 4 behind the RIAA so who knows what will happens. Unfortunately I will not be holding my breath. First: the RIAA is a US-only organization. So, they aren't to be worried about, at any rate. You would have to worry about whatever the UK equivalent of the RIAA is.
Second: as you noted, Sony is one of the major members of the RIAA (and similar entities in other countries). Since it is Sony making their catalogue available in this arrangement, so long as the service users are only sharing Sony-catalogue songs, there would be no grounds for an anti-piracy group to step in.
Now, how long Sony decides to keep with this is open for debate. Sony's one of the ones that wants to change the pricing structure that iTunes uses. So, I would imagine this service will go on right up to the point that it gets successful. At that point, Sony will get greedy and it will all fall apart.
-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
3 edits | Re: Finally! said by nixen :First: the RIAA is a US-only organization. So, they aren't to be worried about, at any rate. You would have to worry about whatever the UK equivalent of the RIAA -tom Well of course I meant the United States.:) This will never happen in the US because of the RIAA. To bad it sounds like an interesting idea.
The thing is there are so many good independent radio station streaming I really don't care any more about this whole issue. A good station for Cajun sounds is here »www.kbon.com it is a locally owned FM station that plays local artists. Right now I am morning the loss of the greatest Jazz station in the known universe WWOZ, New Orleans.
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Low voltage Tech's are wimps, Real tech's use 45 pound filament transformers, plate voltages no less then 2400 volts with at least 10 amp's lighting 8877 triodes...BPL I'm coming to get you.
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packetscan
Premium
join:2004-10-19
Bridgeport, CT
clubs: | Gives new meaning to buck up and face the music. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | Re: Hidden cost to those who don't want music you sound just like a young person bitching about having to pay for health insurance he, or she never uses. I am sure the ISP's will have with, or without plans. | |
| | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Hidden cost to those who don't want music Health insurance used to save one's life or maintain one's living condition is a little different then music, moron.
I also buy life insurance and I will only be using that once and know that up front. That doesnt mean I want to subsidize free Hot dogs and cotton candy for those that enjoy those things. | |
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yock
TFTC
Premium
join:2000-11-21
Fairfield, OH
| said by Transmaster :you sound just like a young person bitching about having to pay for health insurance he, or she never uses. I am sure the ISP's will have with, or without plans. That's an asinine comparison. Whether or not you use insurance does not negate the validity of carrying insurance. For people who don't share music online, there is no benefit as they cannot potentially benefit from it.
You can get hurt at any moment and thank God you have insurance. What unforeseen catastrophe could arise when you suddenly thank your lucky stars that you have P2P?
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Wiki Wiki
CAUTION: Zealous Gentoo Fanboy
Just because you work in IT doesn't mean you aren't computer illiterate. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | Re: Hidden cost to those who don't want music I am talking about the bitching not the difference between insurance and P2P. | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| The actual problem I see in this is how are they going to divvy up the royalties? How will they know which artists get a cut and how much of that cut will they get? This seems to me just a way for the record labels to extort more profits without actually giving back to their artist pool. | |
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BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
1 edit | Re: Hidden cost to those who don't want music log which songs are downloaded | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| Re: Hidden cost to those who don't want music Aside from packet sniffing how will they do that? It's not like there is one P2P program that's going to be used and it can keep track. Basically anything from Sony that passes through that ISP is supposed to be covered. I seriously doubt they will put that much time and effort into tracking everything running through there. | |
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Orwell1984
@fdn.com
| Re: Hidden cost to those who don't want music According to their website that is exactly what they plan to do."Q: WHAT TECHNOLOGY DOES PLAYLOUDER MSP USE?
* The technology behind the PLMSP service is provided by US-based technology company, Audible Magic.
* PLMSP employs specially configured routers and firewall technology using 'deep packet searches' to identify and re-route all file sharing traffic. This process ensures that file sharing can occur only between subscribers within the PLMSP "walled garden".
* Audio-fingerprinting technology is used within the PLMSP network to ensure that all licensed downloads within the network are tracked enabling accurate accounting back to music rights holders". | |
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Champer
join:2004-04-07
Buffalo, NY
clubs:
| Re: This is a great idea. said by moby866 :Now whether they put out decent music again is a whole other debate. These "recording artists" (in quotes, because I use that term loosely) have been spitting out garbage for over a decade and jacking up the price of that garbage every time something is released. What this ISP did is nothing short of a miracle. Sony is one of the leads in the RIAA, and now they make a contract with an ISP to share music? I don't know about you, but I smell something funny. I just hope it works out for all those users, it's a great idea, but so was communism. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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No animals were harmed in the transmission of this post, but the pitbull living next door is living on borrowed time i tell you! | |
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broadbander
join:2005-07-21
Brooklyn, NY
| Re: This is a great idea. I just hope it works out for all those users, it's a great idea, but so was communism. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Um ... absolute power over what?
How was communism a great idea? I thought the problem with communism was the theory, and thus, its faults in practice. | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| Re: This is a great idea. Communism actually works in smaller communities. In fact it has worked when you take into account the tribal communes from the Americas and Africa. It fails in practice when trying to establish a large community. There is no way you will have thousands of individuals who are all in line with a communistic economy. Someone is going to want to make that power grab or take more wealth for themselves. That is why communism fails in anything larger than say a village. | |
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Champer
join:2004-04-07
Buffalo, NY
clubs:
1 edit | said by broadbander :I just hope it works out for all those users, it's a great idea, but so was communism. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Um ... absolute power over what? How was communism a great idea? I thought the problem with communism was the theory, and thus, its faults in practice. Are you aware of what communism is? If not, let me give a brief summary. It is the idea that the government controls everything, and no one is left out in the cold. Everyone gets the same as everyone else. Simply put, if you have it, I have it. No more bragging rights, no more "keeping up with the Jones's," no more "look what I got." The idea behind communism is fantastic, but you get people in government like Hitler and see what you get. I should point you to the words of the late great John Lennon who said, " Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man," That song, in essence, is about communism. No religion, no possessions, everyone on a level playing field and no one is better than the other. I don't know about you, but, ideally, that's a perfect world. In practice, it's a pure power trip, greed gets in the way.
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No animals were harmed in the transmission of this post, but the pitbull living next door is living on borrowed time i tell you! | |
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broadbander
join:2005-07-21
Brooklyn, NY
2 edits | Re: This is a great idea. said by Champer :said by broadbander :I just hope it works out for all those users, it's a great idea, but so was communism. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Um ... absolute power over what? How was communism a great idea? I thought the problem with communism was the theory, and thus, its faults in practice. Are you aware of what communism is? If not, let me give a brief summary. It is the idea that the government controls everything, and no one is left out in the cold. Everyone gets the same as everyone else. Simply put, if you have it, I have it. No more bragging rights, no more "keeping up with the Jones's," no more "look what I got." The idea behind communism is fantastic, but you get people in government like Hitler and see what you get. I should point you to the words of the late great John Lennon who said, " Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man," That song, in essence, is about communism. No religion, no possessions, everyone on a level playing field and no one is better than the other. I don't know about you, but, ideally, that's a perfect world. In practice, it's a pure power trip, greed gets in the way. Dude ... if you have read any, just one probably, of my other posts you'd know I have significant experience studying Marxist philosophical and sociological theory and Marxian/Ricardian economic ideas.
And your definition of communism is the pop culture one, not the real one. In SOCIALISM, the stage before communism, the government centralizes "control." (though not really in the sense that is implied) Everyone does not get the "same thing." Incentives can still exist in some capacity. Re-education occurs. Eventually, after enough of it, there is no need for the government, the workers rise up and satisfy supply and demand on their own terms perfectly, blah blah Etc. Etc. utopian theory.
As for Hilter, he was the opposite of a Communism, he was a fascist, which essentially, in theory means government control by a sect of economic citizens (an oligarchy) in tandem with a military controlled by a series of executive officers (dictator and his cronies). The state controls all things in a fascism, but not in the manner of communism (land redistribution does not occur, "equality" is no concern, private landowners still remain in control, and actually become more powerful as members of the governmental body).
There has never been a national communism of any significant size. Stalinist Russia was a single-party socialism. Mao's China was a single-party socialism (more like an idiotic agricultural mess than any a tangible system of governance). Pol Pot's regime was a socialism (sort of).
Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were not socialisms, nor were they communisms.
SRFireside's assertion that communisms have worked in smaller communities is very true. Some private companies, in which all employees share profits equally, are communisms and very efficient ones. The harder everyone works, the better everyone does. The essential problems with Marx are not problems of human nature, but rather two things ...
A) A not fully complete conception of what determines price in a free market
and
B) An inability to propagate the implementation of re-education without the existence of a benevolent ruling class, willing to force "re-education" upon the masses (who have been corrupted by capitalism ... according to Marx [not necessarily me]), thus jeopardizing their own livelihoods (in the revolution, the leaders of the re-education are the ones brought out of power), keeping in mind that that ruling class has ALSO been socially corrupted by capitalism (again, according to Marx). How does a corrupted class re-educate a corrupted class to be not corrupt, and not be corrupt itself? | |
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Champer
join:2004-04-07
Buffalo, NY
clubs:
| Re: This is a great idea. I actually was not knocking you by any means, and I also wasn't saying that Hitler was communist, I was just comparing his ego-maniacal psyche. He was a man that wanted nothing but power and control, and look what happened. Back on topic, the *idea* of having an ISP that allows sharing *in network* is great, but then you have to be prepared for the consequences that come along with it, ie: the ability to track who's doing what online, and what files are being traded. Your anonymity are gone, you are no longer an invisible force floating the Internet undetected, you are in a big grassy field with snipers all around you.
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No animals were harmed in the transmission of this post, but the pitbull living next door is living on borrowed time i tell you! | |
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broadbander
join:2005-07-21
Brooklyn, NY
|  Re: This is a great idea.
Your anonymity are gone, you are no longer an invisible force floating the Internet undetected, you are in a big grassy field with snipers all around you.
Now THAT is an interesting point.  | |
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mrchris
We don't miss you Bush
Premium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY
1 edit | What Hmmmm... share "their" music? I'll share whatever I want..  | |
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asdfdfdf
@xtraport.net
| I'm glad to see some news here about this... There are still a lot of unanswered questions. It isn't clear yet whether the sony content will follow the same model as the indie content. Still, this could be very major news and could represent the beginning of a major shift. It isn't being talked about as much as it should be. | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Comcast
·Patriot Media
| This is stupid I guess people dont see the sliding effect here, next music companies will say they want to get paid(for each song). etc etc. I dont think this is a good idea, and wouldnt choose this isp. Because i dont share music.
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Feed your Faith, not your doubts | |
| ebiebi
join:2003-08-13
Albuquerque, NM
1 edit | Unlimited? No DRM? If this truly has no limits or DRM then I am for it. Maybe Sony figured out that most people don't buy the garbage music on the market anymore. Buy getting a certain guaranteed fee from the playlouder people.. they might actually increase their revenue base. Plus this is a consumable product being that they keep getting this revenue month after month in the increased ISP fees. Somebody may actually be using a few brain cells in this. This would be getting money from people who never buy CD's anymore. Its hard to compete with free on P2P networks, newsgroups etc.. So this makes allot of sense. But being that Sony is behind this.. I am a bit leery of any future catches. But Sony may have learned a big lesson with its older music players and the their proprietary formats..altrac.. which lost them the market and now they are trying to play catch up with psp devices.. but they are way behind Apple. Believe me the big wigs at Sony know for a fact that their Greed in keeping things proprietary cost them millions.. it backfired on them . This sounds like they are trying to be first in providing something that can actually compete with P2P. Sony may not want to be left behind EG (APPLE) again.
What I am afraid is that these files may have to be played in some sort of proprietary playlouder player (DRM). I really doubt they would allow everything to be traded in the open MP3 format. | |
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Orwell1984
@fdn.com
| Not Sure I could not find anywhere on the Playlouder website any mention of exactly what format the music will be in.I also found no statement of an absence of DRM. All this really sounds like to me is a technology testbed to prove ISPs can stop illegal P2P file sharing.The same deep packet searching and finger printing could end up being mandatory for all ISPs
if it can be proven to work. | |
| | ebiebi
join:2003-08-13
Albuquerque, NM
| Re: Not Sure said by Orwell1984 :
The same deep packet searching and finger printing could end up being mandatory for all ISPs
if it can be proven to work.
That would be bad.. But ISP's would no doubt fight that move. If the US made that a law.. that would be a real violation of our rights. But I am sure the music industry would like such a law. There's more to this then we are reading right now.. and I am sure there are catches.. there always are with the music business. | |
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thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY
| This is how it was meant to be!
Music is more easily available online than it is anywhere else. Ordering means waiting for shipping, buying in the store means a crippled selection and having to(in my case) take two buses there and back.
Apps to buy music online are trash. $1.50/song for horribly compressed music, crippled with DRM.
Now the labels are compensated, and in addition we get to share the music we want however we want without it being crippled.
The only issue this brings up is the issue with taxes.. does the guy who uses broadband only to upload family videos to his hosting and for moderate web browsing really want to pay a fee for your music downloading?
IMO, if the fee is small enough, the answer is HELL YES. This is like taxes paying for the library. Not everyone uses it but it should be there.
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The Problem With Music.
Our Rationale
Time to rewrite the DMCA. | |
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anon2112
@167.191.x.x | sort your music into Sony-BMG catalog and other? How will the end user know if there library of music is part of Sony-BMG? I would not want the isp to scan the hard drive to determine it for you! | |
| | ebiebi
join:2003-08-13
Albuquerque, NM
| Re: sort your music into Sony-BMG catalog and othe said by anon2112 :
How will the end user know if there library of music is part of Sony-BMG? I would not want the isp to scan the hard drive to determine it for you!
There is allot to this we do not know. I am thinking, that everything will have DRM of some kind.. Have to be purchased though some kind of playlouder site. For all we know, these files may not even be transferable to PMD's. There does not seem to be any info at this point on the type of restrictions.. but with Sony, you can be sure there will be allot of controls put in. By excluding all other labels except Sony-BMG hints that there has to be some kind of DRM involved in this new service. | |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| How it works.. It's using the infamous 'audible magic', which is really nothing more than a sniffer tied to a spoofer (used to disrupt it)
If any of you have suffered the indignity of working in a company that monitors all your IM traffic, it's fundamentally the same thing. It's a device that sits on a segment in promiscuous mode (it listens for all data), intercepts everything, and 'tries' to hash compare the data with a known database. I've had the distinct displeasure of developing a device to do something similar, and let me tell you it doesn't really work well. Trillian of course defeated it immediately, and all the IM's now offer crypto (I think), which defeats it yet again.
First: The database needs to be constantly updated. If the song isn't in the database, it's not going to be detected.
Second: It's not really that accurate anyway.. 70% is about what we found it gets, even with a perfect database
Third: Disruption is a joke. It uses spoofed packets to 'attempt' to disrupt the transfer. In reality, it doesn't take that many 'spoof attempts' before the units choke on their own filth of bad packets, and can't process anymore.
Fourth: It's cake to defeat. Right now, something as simple as rarring (or aceing) a file stops it. Why? because on a per packet basis, you need to have the entire file before you can unrar it. That means that the unit would need to store the ENTIRE SESSION (unbelievably huge) before it could even start to compare. Of course, adding a password eliminates the entire thing.
Fifth, and finally: The VERY first thing the P2P developers are going to do is add SSL encryption to their packages. That means that the entire audible magic device is completely wasted.
having said all that..
If most people find that the product is cost effective, does NOT interfere with the way they use their computer, gets them the music they like at the price they like, and isn't restricted, they will avoid steps #1 to #5, and instead just play nice. Remember, SONY's database won't have anything other than there music in it. And since you are legally ALLOWED to have all their music, there's really no reason to block anything at all. Do they care about the other labels? Doesn't make them any money, so they don't care. Can they stop 'everyone'? Of course not, but that's not really the objective here. The objective is to give people a reasonable, workable, legal access to something they will get anyway. This way just 'uncriminalizes' the majority of people.
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Grand Poobah | |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| It's using the infamous 'audible magic', which is really nothing more than a sniffer tied to a spoofer (used to disrupt it)
If any of you have suffered the indignity of working in a company that monitors all your IM traffic, it's fundamentally the same thing. It's a device that sits on a segment in promiscious mode (it listens for all data), intercepts everything, and 'tries' to hash compare the data with a known database. I've had the distinct displeasure of developing a device to do something similar, and let me tell you it doesn't really work well. Trillian of course defeated it immediately, and all the IM's now offer crypto (I think), which defeats it yet again.
First: The database needs to be constantly updated. If the song isn't in the database, it's not going to be detected.
Second: It's not really that accurate anyway.. 70% is about what we found it gets, even with a perfect database
Third: Disruption is a joke. It uses spoofed packets to 'attempt' to disrupt the transfer. In reality, it doesn't take that many 'spoof attempts' before the units choke on their own filth of bad packets, and can't process anymore.
Fourth: It's cake to defeat. Right now, something as simple as rarring (or aceing) a file stops it. Why? because on a per packet basis, you need to have the entire file before you can unrar it. That means that the unit would need to store the ENTIRE SESSION (unbelievably huge) before it could even start to compare. Of course, adding a password eliminates the entire thing.
Fifth, and finally: The VERY first thing the P2P developers are going to do is add SSL encryption to their packages. That means that the entire audible magic device is completely wasted.
having said all that..
If most people find that the product is cost effective, does NOT interfere with the way they use their computer, gets them the music they like at the price they like, and isn't restricted, they will avoid steps #1 to #5, and instead just play nice. Remember, SONY's database won't have anything other than there music in it. And since you are legally ALLOWED to have all their music, there's really no reason to block anything at all. Do they care about the other labels? Doesn't make them any money, so they don't care. Can they stop 'everyone'? Of course not, but that's not really the objective here. The objective is to give people a reasonable, workable, legal access to something they will get anyway. This way just 'uncriminalizes' the majority of people.
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Grand Poobah | |
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The Future of Music and Broadband?
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Hidden cost to those who don't want music
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