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I Vant Blud
join:2002-01-02
Denville, NJ |  Phishing, DRM and BPL Oh My!
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MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs: | Fututure in broadband If it dies now it will pick up early good to see its catching on i wouldent mind BPL in my area becuase i can only get cable (to far from dsl towers) | |
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manfmmd
Premium
join:2003-01-14
Earth
clubs:
 ·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Fututure in broadband (OT) Take a breath. Think out your post. Type. (/OT)
BPL faces too much resistence from the HAM'ers to ever become a completely legitimate, competitive broadband alternative. ARRL is a somewhat powerful lobby and will not allow BPL without a serious fight.
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secundum umbra EGO specto lux lucis | |
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| | pumpkinhead7
join:2002-06-14
Fairmont, WV | Re: Fututure in broadband Ham is dying, get over it. We need to cut off the dead weight and make room for new technology. Why should hundreds if not thousands of people be denied broadband because a few people want to play with their radios | |
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manfmmd
Premium
join:2003-01-14
Earth
clubs: | Re: Fututure in broadband I'm not in anyway defending the ARRL. I'm simply pointing out the facts.
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secundum umbra EGO specto lux lucis | |
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| | | hescominsoon
join:2003-02-18
Brunswick, MD | Too bad you think that. For the first few days after Katrina..guess who the gov't had to rely on for comms? HAMS. In some fashion Hams are stil there filling in the gaps that gov't and commercial comms still ahve not fixed yet. | |
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| | | amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
 ·Cox HSI
| I'm not a ham enthusiast but...
they've been "playing" w/this form of communication for way longer than "broadband" internet was available to the common person. That's only one little piece... it's not "dead weight" as far as they're concerned. It's a reliable form of communicating with the world that is AnaloG, meaning it isn't going to freak out if too many "rouge packets" come along. What if the 'net was so flooded with ddos, dns attacks, virus/adware proliferation, whatever else, and it was reduced to worse than 28.8 speeds, you would BEG to know what's going on around the world. ..There's one small example of why it's useful to those who use such frequencies.
Still... getting a digitized link through your wall outlets without frying the TV/microwave/dvr/alarm clock/washer/dryer/toaster/whatever is awesome. Great alternative for some people who can't get dsl and don't want an ultra high latency sat-link. I say let it go, but be fair to radio operators.. they were here 1st. Maybe another form of frequency modulation that wouldn't interfere so much is possible if somebody would actually work on it instead of complaining.
...side note about more broadband... MORE FIBER is obviously the best answer to all of it. | |
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| | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by pumpkinhead7  :Ham is dying, get over it. We need to cut off the dead weight and make room for new technology. Why should hundreds if not thousands of people be denied broadband because a few people want to play with their radios Geesh, another person who doesn't get it.
This will NOT serve anyone who can't get broadband already. It will be deployed only to places that have enough density to support cable or DSL.
And if you think this will lower prices, guess again. DSL is cheap yet cable still is expensive. Why? Because it has a better track record. When FTTH comes, then you might see cable lower prices but until then, keep dreaming.
And Amateur Radio is far from the dead weight you claim it is.  | |
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| | | | hottboiinnc
Kyle
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
 ·Time Warner VOIP
 ·1and1
| Re: Fututure in broadband cable is so expensive due to the fact that's most of what people can get so they'll pay for it. DSL is cheap because they don't have to upgrade the lines---yet----and FTTH will only be available in select areas other wise its FTTN which we get now with Cable.
Cable will ALWAYS push more than DSL or anything over DSL. Especially HDTV
But Remember! ALL Internet connections have SHARED speeds at some point! | |
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Vvian Kalyss
join:2003-10-14
Stage 5.0
clubs:
| Guess you've not been reading all the previous threads where BPL claims get straightened out. Take your head out of the sand. BPL isn't going to:
- serve areas which need connectivity (so much for being a cheap alternative, or a competitive alternative, hell, being an alternative at all)
- match services like cable & dsl (BPL's bandwidth limit is much lower than cable & dsl).
I was a fence sitter at the start, but all those trials and failed commercial runs ought to make you think that maybe, just maybe, it would make more economical sense to invest in something that isn't as dodgy as BPL.
quote:
"Why should hundreds if not thousands of people be denied broadband because a few people want to play with their radios"
...because your alleged "thousands of people" doesn't exist - sure they can deploy BPL in cities to get mucho coverage, but then existing services there will blow them out of the water (cable & dsl > BPL, and that's not even getting into the next gen fiber services).
What about those rural folk not being served right now (except maybe with dialup or satellite)? Well, they're screwed too since BPL is TOO EXPENSIVE to roll out there (check all the previous threads, hint look for "repeaters").
BPL doesn't make sense from a technological point of view. It doesn't make sense from an economical point of view. So where are you left? BPL doesn't have a leg to stand on. If you want to buy into this turkey, go ahead -- but don't come whining back when the snake oil salesmen disappear and you're left holding your d1ck.
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Mikami Vvian, resident Girlfriend of Steel, care of the Tokyo-3 Middle Daughters Club | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| said by manfmmd :(OT) Take a breath. Think out your post. Type. (/OT) BPL faces too much resistence from the HAM'ers to ever become a completely legitimate, competitive broadband alternative. ARRL is a somewhat powerful lobby and will not allow BPL without a serious fight. Despite bringing the interference issues to the forefront, the ham lobby actually isn't as powerful as you make it sound. BPL economics and technical issues are doing more to hold BPL back. Read the article from yesterday about PPL dropping their BPL trial. That system didn't have many ham complaints and PPL had a potential 1.3 million customers. If BPL dies, it won't be the hams that killed it. If you study the business model and the technical issues, you'll see BPL has a lot of water to push uphill. | |
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oroper
Patriots Rule
join:2004-06-01
Beverly, MA
| Hope! I thought I read somewhere that there were ARRL Engineers working with BPL Engineers and they came up with some technology that greatly reduces the interference originally reported.
I know, I totally forgot where I read it and specific terminologies but I know there is someone out there that remembers this...;)
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I'm a Chapelle Fan-I'm Rich Beehatch!! | |
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snorpus
join:2000-10-02
Export, PA | Re: Hope! I think it was the ARRL and Motorola who came up with a different BPL technique. IIRC, it uses primarily VHF frequencies, which avoids the High Frequency (shortwave) bands that amateurs use for worldwide communications. | |
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| | dsless
join:2001-05-16
Pittsburgh, PA
| Re: Hope! said by snorpus :I think it was the ARRL and Motorola who came up with a different BPL technique. IIRC, it uses primarily VHF frequencies, which avoids the High Frequency (shortwave) bands that amateurs use for worldwide communications. You are incorrect sir. Hams use HF frequencies for world wide communications and use VHF/UHF for line of sight point to point communications. OR use VHF/UHF with repeaters for long distance communications. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Hope! said by dsless :said by snorpus :I think it was the ARRL and Motorola who came up with a different BPL technique. IIRC, it uses primarily VHF frequencies, which avoids the High Frequency (shortwave) bands that amateurs use for worldwide communications. You are incorrect sir. Hams use HF frequencies for world wide communications and use VHF/UHF for line of sight point to point communications. OR use VHF/UHF with repeaters for long distance communications. He's half correct. Motorola does use HF frequencies but it uses hard (component based) filters to reduce emissions in these bands and thus avoiding interference to amateur radio. | |
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N3OGH
They both suck, we're so screwed
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by dsless :said by snorpus :I think it was the ARRL and Motorola who came up with a different BPL technique. IIRC, it uses primarily VHF frequencies, which avoids the High Frequency (shortwave) bands that amateurs use for worldwide communications. You are incorrect sir. Hams use HF frequencies for world wide communications and use VHF/UHF for line of sight point to point communications. OR use VHF/UHF with repeaters for long distance communications. Um, HF = High Frequency.
When these frequencies originally came into use, they were considered "high". Of course, today they are not, but the name stuck a long time ago.
So, in a sense you are both right. Ham's use high frequency for international, long range communication, also known as "HF".
Take it from someone who has about 300 QSL cards from all over the states and the world....
PS, and I know 300 isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, but I haven't DX'ed in a LONG LONG time... | |
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snorpus
join:2000-10-02
Export, PA
| said by dsless :said by snorpus :You are incorrect sir. Hams use HF frequencies for world wide communications and use VHF/UHF for line of sight point to point communications. OR use VHF/UHF with repeaters for long distance communications. Isn't that what I wrote? HF is worldwide. I stand corrected (by rf engineer) that the Motorola system uses VHF. | |
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Ed Hare W1RFI
@69.0.x.x
| ARRL worked with Motorola to help them design a BPL system with a low interference potential. Motorola even installed one of these systems at the ARRL Administrative Headquarters in Newington, CT.
»www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/08/29/1/
The initial results were positive.
Ed Hare, W1RFI, ARRL Laboratory Manager
w1rfi@arrl.org | |
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HotRodFoto
Premium
join:2003-04-19
Denver, CO
| speed? I looked but see no mention of the speed thats obtainable thru them. I hope BPL catches on.....it would seriously mean all of America could be wired. It would be our only real shot at catching up to other nations where we once lead.
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All Things Art »kkart.deviantart.com | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: speed? said by HotRodFoto :I looked but see no mention of the speed thats obtainable thru them. I hope BPL catches on.....it would seriously mean all of America could be wired. It would be our only real shot at catching up to other nations where we once lead. If BPL could have all of America wired, you should have had DSL in every home years ago. Nearly every home in America is wired with twisted copper pair.
The fact is BPL has more limitations than DSL and it needs a lot of equipment on the powerline to make it happen. It's not as easy as just turning it on at a power plant or substation. | |
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preacherx
join:2002-02-28
Van Orin, IL
| BPL in Princeton IL I would just like to chime in here. I am a Network Administrator for an ISP involved in a BPL trial for the city of Princeton IL. I also have done CPE installs but no line work. We are working hand in hand with city workers to deploy and test this possible solution.
In the very beginning, before we went live, there were threats of immediate lawsuits from HAM operators in our area. Our system has currently been live on a limited deployment for over 90 days. Currently I know of no litigation or complaints from local HAMs.
We are using equipment manufactured by MAINnet
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Larry Mitchell
Webmaster
www.E-LSD.com
A+, Network+, Linux+, LPI L1 | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: BPL in Princeton IL No ham who knows the rules should threaten to sue. The rules for resolving interference are laid out in Part 15 and it would have to get pretty far before litigation could happen. IANAL, but I think only the FCC can take direct legal action in an interference case.
I heard from one of the folks in your area several months ago that the BPL system was passing about seven homes at the time. Is the coverage more extensive now? Are you specifically notching ham bands and the NTIA frequencies, or avoiding HF bands entirely? Have you taken any field measurements? Thanks for any information you can provide. | |
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Ed Hare W1RFI
@69.0.x.x
| The interference that doesn't exist was recorded in Princeton and can be heard at:
»www.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/video/Pr···tBPL.wav
The noise levels of "S9" to "20 over S9" are strong to extremely strong.
From the reports I have received from Princeton hams, there is still active interference in Princeton. This serves to emphasize why all such reports must be sent to the FCC, as it has been a pretty consistent pattern of industry denial of any reports that are not officially documented.
More information about BPL and its EMC issues can be found at:
»www.arrl.org/bpl
Ed Hare, ARRL Laboratory Manager
w1rfi@arrl.org | |
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mr weather
Premium
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON
| BPL has issues... The BPL incarnation I read about is relatively slow in terms of speed. Sure it's faster than dial-up but is nowhere near DSL or cable. Heck, I think the new satellite stuff has it beat.
Interference is another issue. Because you're taking a wideband RF signal and sending it through unshielded wires a lot of "noise" will leak out. This interference not only affects ham radio types but also some three-letter agencies that still make extensive use of the HF spectrum.
BPL doesn't have a whole lot going for it. I guess anyone will try anything to make a buck.
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"It's all coming down!!" - Mike Holmes | |
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snorpus
join:2000-10-02
Export, PA | Re: BPL has issues... Those unshielded power lines also allow a lot of RF in... RF generated by military, governmental, and commercial stations, as well as radio amateurs.
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packetscan
Premium
join:2004-10-19
Bridgeport, CT
clubs: | HaHa They have been operating from over one year and only have 700 customers?
This some kinda joke?
April Fools!?! | |
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Manassas BPL
