 Tor Network Bogged Down by P2P File-traders hunt for anonymity Thursday Oct 13 2005 09:31 EDT Some time ago our security regulars broke down the logistics behind Tor, an anonymity tool from the Electronic Frontier Foundation. It was designed for whistle-blowers, political dissidents, researchers, and others concerned about exchanging information without authoritarian backlash. Sadly network performance is being jeopardized by file-traders looking to evade the RIAA. File traders have been reconfiguring their Bit Torrent clients to take advantage of the network. Unfortunately the Tor network wasn't designed with high volume porn transfer in mind, so the activity is slowing it down to a crawl. The likely result will be the EFF running against the grain of their mandate, and restricting network use. Of course running an anonymous network opens the door to misuse by file-traders or worse. Indicating some anticipation that p2p would be an issue, the EFF went so far as to offer node maintainers a DMCA response template, should Hollywood or the music industry fire a DMCA complaints in their direction. That said, the EFF insists that abuse isn't a huge problem on the network. It seems like the EFF is faced with an ironic choice: let p2p trading continue and let network performance suffer, or crack down on something they've (in a roundabout way) been large proponents of. They could direct Desperate Housewives traders worried about lawsuits to other dedicated p2p privacy apps like Peer Guardian or SafePeer, but as our users have consistently pointed out, they don't really work. 100% anonymous file-trading with any real bandwidth capacity is largely a pipe-dream pushed by snake-oil salesmen - and over the years we've seen a lot of salesmen. |
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jbs123
Member
2005-Oct-13 9:43 am
Anonymity?No such thing. Come on. Even those real good virus creaters who work from another country and try their best, still are caught and can be traced. IF you don't want to be caught then don't do it. I download crap all the time that maybe I shouldn't, however, I know that I could be caught if someone tried real hard. | |
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sirsloop
Premium Member
2005-Oct-13 9:59 am
Re: Anonymity?Anyone looking to release something without getting caught is probably armed with a laptop, a car, and a directional antenna. | |
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elpikachupacabra
Anon
2005-Oct-13 8:51 pm
Re: Anonymity?Exactly. Drive-by wi-fi-jackings are the order of the day for cheapass warez pirates like yours truly. It might not be fast, but who cares? I'm not fixing to download every stupid movie that comes out. I have specific targets, and the lag and hassle is worth the while because the smoking gun does not belong to me. The xxAA can lick my nuts. | |
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 |  packetscan Premium Member join:2004-10-19 Bridgeport, CT |
to jbs123
How many virus creators have been found? compared to the number of viruses being written and or distributed. The people being caught are being caught because they are doing something stuff, like bragging.
If you want to release a virus you do it someone you have never been and will never be again.
Tor is Great for anonomous browseing, read the docs on the tor site i think you will be impressed. Tor was never designed as a vehicle for p2p traffic. I think the people that are using Tor for p2p are (inserct subjective comments here). | |
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to jbs123
Ever heard Freenet? Inefficient as hell, but anon. | |
|  |  SpitefulCrowInsert Witty Tag Here Premium Member join:2003-06-04 Berkeley, CA |
to jbs123
Nope. Anonymous networks are entirely possible to create. However, they usually come at a cost of bandwidth and processing power, since defeating eavesdroppers means everything has to be encrypted. And that's if you rule out the possibility of data-analysis techniques being used by your adversaries. People trying to break anonymous networks can gain access to the network or the lines it's running over and observe traffic patterns. As a result, to be protected against this, you need to break your network into smaller groups and transmit random data constantly as a cover to prevent traffic analysis from breaking your anonymity. This effectively kills any high-bandwidth applications since your network is now limited by the speed of its slowest connection.
Although it costs you in terms of resources, it is entirely possible to transmit something across the Internet without eavesdroppers knowing who sent it or what it says. | |
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 FAQFixer Premium Member join:2004-06-28 Powder Springs, GA |
FAQFixer
Premium Member
2005-Oct-13 9:50 am
WhateverWhat a crock. The EFF knew EXACTLY what the tool was eventually going to be used for. They stated it was for, "whistle-blowers, political dissidents, researchers, and others concerned about exchanging information without authoritarian backlash" so they would not be liable like the Grokster case. | |
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MxxCon
Member
2005-Oct-13 9:54 am
Re: Whateveryes, EFF knew EXACTLY what the tool was designed to be used for. RETARDS that use TOR for p2p are...retards don't blame inventors of good ideas for idiots around the world. | |
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to FAQFixer
Not true. You do know the EFF is a legit digital rights outfit, yes? P2P is clearly stated as a violation of the service.
The primary concept was to create a distribution method for researchers concerned about backlash to publish findings, not to create a distribution channel for the Metallica discography.... | |
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Re: WhateverThe reality is actually not even that good; the "research" going on in tor consists apparently mostly of DDoS attacks, phishing, and blog-spamming.
Many hosts block any inbound IP connections from published TOR exit points. | |
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to Minister
said by Minister:Not true. You do know the EFF is a legit digital rights outfit, yes? P2P is clearly stated as a violation of the service. That's kind of ironic, isn't it? The EFF is one of the biggest defenders of P2P, but they don't want it on their network.  I think the EFF does some good work, but they end up taking a lot of really bad stances. They're kind of like the ACLU of the computer world. | |
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Re: WhateverYeah I think that's what the column hints at: Seems like they're faced with a choice here.
Either their network performance suffers, or they crack down on the very P2P file-trading they've in a round-about way been legally protecting.... | |
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MxxCon
Member
2005-Oct-13 9:52 am
FUDWe would direct Desperate Housewives traders worried about lawsuits to other dedicated p2p privacy apps like Peer Guardian or SafePeer, but as our users have consistently pointed out, they don't really work. if those tin-foil-hat solutions dont' work, why do you even bother mentioning them?  | |
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Re: FUDLikely because they're the first ones brought up as a legit solution every time someone mentions p2p anonymity?
Let people try them. False sense of security is about all they're good for. As if BayTSP and other pirate hunters can't grab a stack of IP addresses these groups miss.... | |
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amungus
Premium Member
2005-Oct-13 10:10 am
Re: FUDyep, and what's to stop them from keeping at least a step or 5 ahead of some "list" of ip's that "could" be tracking...
somebody was bound to think of trying this "network" for even shadier purposes than its original intent. | |
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TappyTipTop
Anon
2005-Oct-13 10:48 am
Try the iPhantomHear good things about » www.iphantom.com. Works with all P2P, no prob apparently. | |
|  owenhomekeeper of the magic blue smoke Premium Member join:2002-07-13 Bentonville, AR |
owenhome
Premium Member
2005-Oct-13 10:55 am
Stupid is as stupid does....If information can get from one computer to another, it can be traced from one computer to another. If packets don't know where they're going, getting there is a real problem. Go hop in your car with some arbitrary destination in mind. If you don't know where you're going, or have some kind of map to tell you how to get there, you never will.
If you don't want to get caught doing something, not doing it in the first place is a good place to start.
Did somebody say newsgroups? | |
|  Primis1 join:2005-06-13 Coldwater, MI |
Primis1
Member
2005-Oct-13 11:05 am
Least-Surprising Headline...in a while anyways.
the EFF isn't stupid, they had to know this is exactly the crowd they would attract, wanted or unwanted. The question is, what steps did they take to prevent it? Apparently not many, if any at all. | |
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Shamayim
Premium Member
2005-Oct-13 11:32 am
Re: Least-Surprising Headlinesaid by Primis1:...in a while anyways. the EFF isn't stupid, they had to know this is exactly the crowd they would attract, wanted or unwanted... Not fair. All good ideas can be used for other than originally intended purposes. By your logic, Al Gore, the creator of the Internet  , is responsible for all the nefarious computer crimes. After all, he 'had to know this is exactly what crowd the Internet would attract.' In other words, don't blame the EFF; blame the misusers. | |
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Elijahbluegmailcom
Anon
2005-Oct-13 12:38 pm
From a daily TOR userWell, I'm a TOR user. I use it mostly because I don't much like the idea of sites tracking me. I've got nothing to hide. I don't use P2P to scam music or movies. I'm really just your normal internet user who feels slightly creeped out by all the tracking of my activities I read about.
So, I run TOR as a form of 'peace of mind'. I know that I'm, at least a litte, more anon on the net when it's running.
And for that little bit of calm, I thank the EFF and the people that made TOR possible. | |
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I am right here
Anon
2005-Oct-13 1:16 pm
Re: From a daily TOR userWith you on this one. Happy I stumbled on this though as my TOR is set up as a middle man I can just lower its QoS and Bandwidth.
Hopefully thieves will find other means of transport. | |
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Idiots guide to P2P and TorHow do you use Tor with bit torrent clients?
I tried playing around with Tor and bit torrent clients but it was not simple to setup.
Furthermore, I couldn't verify that I was truly anonymous.
A lot of the instructions on the web makes your browser anonymous, not your bit torrent client. | |
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Fudus
Member
2005-Oct-13 2:24 pm
Re: Idiots guide to P2P and Torsaid by LordBritish:How do you use Tor with bit torrent clients? I tried playing around with Tor and bit torrent clients but it was not simple to setup. Furthermore, I couldn't verify that I was truly anonymous. A lot of the instructions on the web makes your browser anonymous, not your bit torrent client. I like how the article complains about P2P bogging down the network, then you ask how to do it! | |
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asdjf
Member
2005-Oct-13 1:40 pm
Better appsThere's a lot better ways to anonymously share files than Tor. MUTE for instance, or ANTS, or the services provided by I2P. | |
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Bob F
Anon
2005-Oct-13 5:55 pm
Set up your own TOR server and help outThe TOR network consists of dozens/hundreds of servers where data is encrypted and bounced around in, so the data can't be tracked to its originator. Those servers can only take so much input/output traffic. If the TOR network is slowing down due to increased traffic amounts, then more servers are needed.
Anyone can set up a TOR server. I suggest if people want to make heavy use of TOR, they get involved and set up server as well, and play their part for everyone. You can set your TOR server to limit data rates and amounts if wanted. But, the more the better. | |
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formerly4tor
Anon
2005-Oct-14 2:04 am
Why TorIf you read the EFF non-technical background, you'll see that Tor is actually used by the Navy and by some law enforcement agencies. It does not exist for the purpose furthering p2p and EFF is not promoting it as such. The author of this article is ill-informed and his bias is revealed in his "reporting." All of this is really a non-issue, though, as Tor really is slower than molasses in December. I was interested in Tor and used it for a short time. It was so slow that it was like paying broadband rates for dialup connections. | |
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btiz
Anon
2005-Oct-14 11:02 am
Better solutions exist please do not abuse tor!Every time I see other people promoting using tor to do p2p transfers I have discouraged them and pointed out that other networks are designed for this and that tor should never be abused in this way, it will only cause problems with the network.
There currently is i2p which is a far better solution than tor and is designed for such heavy useage, like what p2p requires. Currently it even have existing solutions for doing p2p filesharing over it.
Another option is entropy (the super fast freenet replacement, written in c so it does not require running java, think of it like a better freenet version 7 that is availible right now). How fast it is compaired to freenet, well unlike freenet it does not take forever and a year to actually do anything, oh and instead of eventually failing it actually will work!! Just imagine that a working, fast freenet replacement that doesn't suck or is super slow.
I wish people would stop advocating the abuse of tor and use of the outdated very slow and messed up freenet. We do have far better options right now, why not advocate their use? Nobody has been able to give me any sound reason why freenet and tor is better.
Tor is only for things like webrowsing, forums, irc, instant messeging, and other light networking. Yes it works great, until people abuse it by using it for heavy things like p2p filesharing, then it becomes slow and sucks. I think they should at the very least implement bittorrent filters on it. Also azureus and other bittorrent clients need to make it very clear to their users not to abuse tor by using it for filesharing. Yes it can be used to connect to or host trackers, but that is it. Don't use it for p2p data transfers between peers. | |
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person911
Anon
2005-Oct-14 11:45 pm
Re: Better solutions exist please do not abuse torI agree. Don't use TOR for P2P, you are an unwelcomed guest. There are plenty of alternatives out ther i2p, freenet, entropy, mute, ants, ...
If you are looking for something like limewire, I'd reccomend either i2p, mute, or ants. For bittorrent, use i2p. And if you don't mind waiting a long time for your files and particularly if you are into some nasty stuff, consider freenet/entropy. But know that right now there is nothing like bt or limewire on it. | |
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abadflkmag
Anon
2005-Oct-18 1:54 pm
tori've got the reason why tor is used for bittorent over all of the other networks. Most of the p2p users using tor don't care about anonymity, it's about bypassing college routers and traffic shapers. Traffic shapers block transfers based on the port numbers and/or the labels on the packets being sent. So when tor is used it goes through a different port and the packet labels are hidden so it totally bypasses university anti-piracy crap that stops for the most part all file transfers outside of the university network. That is the reason tor is used and not i2p or the other things | |
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Blofeld
Anon
2005-Oct-23 2:20 pm
Re: torI use TOr with Azureus. It works and it's cool not to be tracked. I think that the goal of Tor is to be used by Azureus. They are meant to work together. | |
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drippydonut
Anon
2005-Oct-24 1:43 pm
IDIOT!Again, what's the title of this article? "Tor Network Bogged Down by P2P" I wonder about people some times! Some of my friends don't even realise file-sharing is illegal (in the terms of music downloading - not all filesharing is illegal)!
I've used Tor for light webbrowsing ever since I set up my own website and forum and saw how much information was actually logged, but for downloading large knoppix distros - well - I COULD KILL THOSE P2P ADDICTS! | |
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Warrior Lord
Anon
2006-Apr-20 2:53 pm
We need More AnonymityThis is not spam, it's just a LONG post because I felt the need to say my piece on this subject.
Tor and technology like is badly needed in this day and age. If you are not anonymous, there are companies right now who are making millions of dollars by tracking you and profiling you based on your browsing behavior. (these companies are horrible). Much like what started years ago selling peoples names and address based on their purchasing behavior, you are becoming a commodity, and also being watched.
I wouldn't put it past the government or some corporations who have profiles on people, maybe even YOU, based on what is purchased, read, watched on cable TV (cable now is a two way transmission) and browsed on the internet.
On the net it used to be cookie based tracking, now websites are profiling you based on your IP address. In the future, they will find other ways to track you. Ad-ware companies use this technology to track your behaviors on the net and serve up ads based on things you like. These aware companies and spy-ware companies and websites and others, insist they don't know "who" you are, just your ip address and assign it to a customer profile.
These ad-ware companies claim it's better, because you get ads based on things you are interested in, other than just random ads you may or may not be interested in. That's a bunch of BS! Tracking people in any way is screwed up.
Regardless of that, being tracked and profiled on the net or anywhere is creepy. For example I may have a major flu and do searches for drugs, symptoms and remedies. I don't want some profile assuming that perhaps based on my behaviors I must have some disease. On a less threading note, I also don't want to be constantly bombarded with ads for Tamaflu, when my cold is over! That's just a mild example of the possible scary future of profiling. See how that can be misused and abused and give false assumptions about people?
Let me tell you something, the government wants to protect this country from illegal activity and harm and it will do anything in its means to do so. Even if it hurts innocent people. That's why if you aren't doing anything illegal, just a normal person on the net, you need to be anonymous, so you won't be miss-profiled.
Believe me, if there is WW3, you will see the sky swarming with air crafts that look like UFO's from some horror movie. The government is hiding allot of technology from us so the enemy won't see it and create counter measures.
As the threat of the new war (terrorism) grows stronger, the government might use these tracking / profiling technologies to create profiles of ordinary people, just like you and I, then monitor you and spy on you. They use government satellites to zoom onto your house, (ever try google satellites and zoom in on your own house? That's a mild example). inferred laser technology to see inside your house through the roof. The satellites can even spy /zoom in on your conversations. They can even zoom into a piece of paper you have in your hand and read it!!!
On top of that, lets say you do allot of what the government considers "suspicious" behavior (correct or incorrect on their part), you could be tagged for life to a government spy who follows you in the shadows everywhere you go, perhaps even taking pictures of you and what you do and putting it in your "file". Who knows, you may be followed right now! It sounds like Sci-Fi, but it's real. It's real creepy!
You might be label as a suspicious person based on your "life" behaviors. I expanded it to "life" because tracking you is going to go beyond just the net.
On the net, "Big Brother" is here now and it's real. If you think just browsing around the net is safe for your identity, even if you are a inocent person, you are sadly, sadly mistaken. Get your head out of the sand people!
But how can the government and corporations track you, and why would they want to track you if they have no data on you? In theory, you'd be somewhat safe from big brother. That's where anonymity comes in.
You should have Tor and be using it. As stronger anonymous technologies are invented, use them. You should stay as anonymous as possible. You should protect and respect Tor and other technologies by not abusing it with file trading and other such illegal stuff. You should give back to the community that is protecting you and support Tor. Maybe while you're on vacation for two weeks or during the time you're at school or work, run a server or share some bandwidth. Even a little bit helps.
If people screw this up by abusing anonymous services with illegal bandwidth hogging practices, and we all loose any ability to be individuals and free from labels and profiles and spying. You will be sorry when the day comes when YOU are the target and suspect of something you didn't do or being accused of being someone who you aren't. | |
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Chris343
Anon
2006-Sep-12 8:19 pm
A backdoor in TOR would cause porn peddlers to use somethingIf the porn peddlers cannot use TOR they will use something else. We have a Police and court system to punish criminals not punish everybody else when the criminals cannot be caught.
The same happened with the handgun ban. Law abiding people could not have a gun and criminals who would be most likely to shoot someone with a gun do not care if they are illegal or not. Now in Britain our olympic pistol team has to train abroad.
AGAIN it is wrong for the government to punish the people because they cant catch the criminals.
Governments cannot run around closing technology down at will because a criminal uses it, it has all the sophistication of demolishing the house to catch the rat.
Some are waiting to use the child porn angle to whittle away at our freedom and we need to FIGHT IT EVERYWHERE IT REARS IT'S HEAD! | |
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