 
DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
3 edits | Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand People cheat. Given the opportunity 80 percent of gamers on line would cheat. That would push the rest to cheat...
End result? No fun.
Read the EULA and don't play if you don't like it.
Never-the-less, for many games server side anti-cheat processing can be done. It does add overhead to the server but it is harder to defeat for the "limpers" who can't seem to get their rox off without cheating.
Great discussion of using kinematics to catch cheaters in FPS games on the AAO forums.
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Phil
Rojo Sol
Premium
join:2001-06-11
Camarillo, CA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand said by DaDogs  :People cheat. Given the opportunity 80 percent of gamers on line would cheat. That would push the rest to cheat... Yeah, people will always cheat, but your 80% is way over the top! I would put the percentage of cheaters at about 15%.
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Mac Bridger
Beat It Again Bill
Premium
join:2001-01-11
Smithton, PA
clubs:
 ·Cricket Broadband
| Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand Regardless of the percentages, cheating ruins the game for everyone else. Has anyone played Diablo 1 recently? If you aren't hacked you die as soon as you enter a game.
I applaud Blizzard for trying to crack down on cheating.
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Phil
Rojo Sol
Premium
join:2001-06-11
Camarillo, CA | Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand I agree with, but he was way off.
Cheating can and does completely ruin games. It's beyond my how anyone gets satisfaction out cheating to win in a game...
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand said by Phil :I agree with, but he was way off. Cheating can and does completely ruin games. It's beyond my how anyone gets satisfaction out cheating to win in a game... You are right 80% is pessimistic and 15% is optimistic...
(15+80)/2 = 47.5 and that is realistic
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| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| said by Phil :It's beyond my how anyone gets satisfaction out cheating to win in a game... Probably the same reason why people enjoy launching a virus. It's a power trip on-line for the feeble minded. They get more pleasure out of watching or knowing other people are getting angry, frustrated, or just plain failing while at the same time boosting their own ego.
Otherwise, there is really no "gaming" being done on the end of the cheater. | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand said by TheSaint :I agree. There are a lot of honest players out there than enjoy good, clean fun. I would put the number below 10% at least in the game I play the most often: Americas Army. I won't speak for other titles. ... and I thought I was pessimistic ...  Please don't miss the deliberate and literal reading of your post  Clearly you mean less than 10% cheat in AAO.
You do know that AAO uses Punk Buster which is a program that runs along side of the AAO client and examines all the software running on your system, right?
Maybe there is a reason that only 10% seem to cheat at AAO or maybe more than 10% cheat and only 10% get away with it? I play AAO myself and I can remember a time when a large percentage of players were cheating, specifically the fourth quater of 2004. It was very bad during that time.
I heard that someone wrote Department of the Army and detailed the issue to them and that they told the devs and the idiots that develop PB to get their stuff in one bag or find a new customer...
Looks like it worked to me...
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| nonner9
join:2005-10-14
Charlotte, NC | Does the EULA for World of Warcraft mention the use of this program to inspect client-side processes running in memory? I've never read it, I just play the game... lol | |
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| Frohike
Premium
join:2000-07-23
Waxahachie, TX
| I agree, read the EULA, its there. I saw it and agreed to it. I have no personal info on my computer so I definitely have no issues where that is concerned.
If people have such a problem with it, /cancel your account and go play something else. | |
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| Joe123456789
join:2003-11-24
Des Plaines, IL
1 edit | sounds like what star force does messing up others programs.
how Long before those unauthorized third-party programs that do not effect the game in any are stopped and reported what about things that may be on the system that may used for cheating are messed like debugs and other tools are messed up even if you don't want to cheat. | |
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand said by Joe123456789 :sounds like what star force does messing up others programs. how Long before those unauthorized third-party programs that do not effect the game in any are stopped and reported what about things that may be on the system that may used for cheating are messed like debugs and other tools are messed up even if you don't want to cheat. Key differences being that since you have to have an account, blizzard doesn't really care if you're using an original cd or if you're running a debug program to figure out how to bypass the cd detection; and that AFAIK warden isn't installed as a driver that affects everything else even when the game isn't running.
What they care about are things like programs that play the game for you so you can make in game money without actually being there.
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| | | Joe123456789
join:2003-11-24
Des Plaines, IL
| said by Combat Chuck :said by Joe123456789 :sounds like what star force does messing up others programs. how Long before those unauthorized third-party programs that do not effect the game in any are stopped and reported what about things that may be on the system that may used for cheating are messed like debugs and other tools are messed up even if you don't want to cheat. Key differences being that since you have to have an account, blizzard doesn't really care if you're using an original cd or if you're running a debug program to figure out how to bypass the cd detection; and that AFAIK warden isn't installed as a driver that affects everything else even when the game isn't running. What they care about are things like programs that play the game for you so you can make in game money without actually being there. maybe for now but they may want to use this for all of there games and maybe even add cd key stuff as well. | |
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JoeOnSunset
Doublethink Is Doubleplus Ungood.
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Ormond Beach, FL
| Look, perhaps the users have no cause to sue, but that doesn't mean the company shouldn't be the subject of scorn for their evil behavior (to use Google's vocabulary). You can still rightly criticize a company for putting terms like that in their EULA in the first place! If Mirosoft did the same thing the kicking and screaming would be unbelievable.
And, to wit, it's highly irresponsible for a company to do something like this. If you read more deeply, you find out that it's doesn't just look at the names of running processes, but also "sniffs email addresses [and] website URLs open at the time of the scan." This is rediculous.
Blizzard has a reputation for unreasonable behavior to the end of fighting cheating, and doesn't seem to understand that two wrongs don't make a right. People should stop supporting a company that engages in these kinds of practices. | |
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BIGMIKE
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Westminster, CA | You can't read the EULA before you open the software. You can't use the software if you don't agree to the EULA and you can't return the software if you've opened it. | |
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| | Frohike
Premium
join:2000-07-23
Waxahachie, TX
| Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand said by BIGMIKE :You can't read the EULA before you open the software. You can't use the software if you don't agree to the EULA and you can't return the software if you've opened it. Yes you can return it after you open it, as long as its within 30 days of purchase. So you can read the EULA, decide not to agree with it, then still return it. | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand said by Frohike :Yes you can return it after you open it, as long as its within 30 days of purchase. So you can read the EULA, decide not to agree with it, then still return it. Have you done this, and where? As far as I have ever heard, you cannot return software to a store once its been open. The only way to get your money back is to bitch over the phone until they decide that you've complained enough to get your money back. Then all they do is give you an address to get your money back. So you don't really get a refund, because shipping eats up some of your money. | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
1 edit | oops | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| said by BIGMIKE :You can't read the EULA before you open the software. You can't use the software if you don't agree to the EULA and you can't return the software if you've opened it. Get that from the EULA did you?;)
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| | Briggs6
join:2004-10-05
Boring, OR
| Every time I see you post any comment in the news section, it's always plagiarized from some other source, word for word, with nothing added.
»72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:O7y···22&hl=en
quote:
Posted by Wizard of Yendor on 12 October, 2005 12:10 AM:
So help me figure this out. You can't read the EULA before you open the software. You can't use the software if you don't agree to the EULA and you can't return the software if you've opened it. This obviously isn't fair, if it isn't illegal? Why not?
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| | Frohike
Premium
join:2000-07-23
Waxahachie, TX | Re: Brain Dead Stupid Easy to Understand Yes that is what I am referring to- returning it directly to Blizzard. | |
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| Candew
join:2005-09-23
Ottawa, ON
| I am with the "if you don't agree with their EULA, your free to cancel your account" crowd myself.
Some folks don't have anything better to do with their time.
It would be one thing if they used this program and said nothing about it whatsoever, however they stated quite clearly within their EULA that they do scan your system for 3rd party hacks.
Much ado about nothing... | |
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nonner9
join:2005-10-14
Charlotte, NC
| invasion of privacy if you agree to the EULA, then how can it be an invasion if you knew they were entering?
also, Blizzard said that they don't take personal information... so what's the big deal? to provide an example this would be like going to somebodies house to look for stolen property and having none of your 5 senses activated. Also, your presence in the house does not change anything that would be happenening if you weren't there. The only time you would gain any information would be when you found your stolen property. The only knowledge gained about the house is that it exists and your property was found. You wouldn't know color, sound, smell, taste, or feel of anything in the house. If you don't find your property, you don't have any knowledge including that you were there.
So, given that example, why are people so upset? Blizzard won't know anything unless you're cheating, and they will only know that you cheated (not anything else), not to mention that this is all done in the background without any noticable interference. | |
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ShootToThril
Tell The Truth
Premium
join:2004-06-07
Sherman Oaks, CA
clubs: | What's The Fun? I enjoy cheating on occasion, Nothing like playing in God Mode sometimes without having to get killed.....Reminds me of the good ol' Days of Doom and Duke Nukem in Dos mode. | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| Re: What's The Fun? said by ShootToThril :I enjoy cheating on occasion Why doesn't this surprise me? 
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ShootToThril
Tell The Truth
Premium
join:2004-06-07
Sherman Oaks, CA
clubs:
1 edit | Re: What's The Fun? because you also Cheat(Take Shortcuts) in your life?.... I'm just guessing but i don't think you're the Saint I've been looking for:D | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
1 edit | Re: What's The Fun? said by ShootToThril :because you also Cheat(Take Shortcuts) in your life?.... I'm sorry. It is the fault of my generation that you fail to understand the difference between cheating and taking shortcuts. I do so wish that we had continued to allow the Principals in the schools to beat children regularly. I am quite sure it would have helped you as it certainly helped me. Alas, we didn't and now I have to explain the difference to you here.
Cheating in a game, or in life, is not the same thing as taking a "short cut". Cheating is taking advantage of the other participants by behaving in a manner which the general population agrees is not fair to the community.
Cheating is "breaking the law". It is not "taking a short cut".
said by ShootToThril : I'm just guessing but i don't think you're the Saint I've been looking for:D I certainly hope not because if I am, you have a problem with your standards as well as with your morals.
Are we having fun yet?
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ShootToThril
Tell The Truth
Premium
join:2004-06-07
Sherman Oaks, CA
clubs:
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: What's The Fun? "cheating and taking shortcuts".... I was brought up on the principle that Taking a short cut is cheating....Whether you like it or not the line is too thin for you to define it for somebody other than yourself. You use your definition i use mine. And although i agree with Smacking a kid to the soul purpose of educating him i have a feeling that you have been smacked more than the rest of the kids.
Lots of Fun!!!:D | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| Re: What's The Fun? said by ShootToThril :"cheating and taking shortcuts".... I was brought up on the principle that Taking a short cut is cheating....Whether you like it or not the line is too thin for you to define it for somebody other than yourself. You use your definition i use mine. And although i agree with Smacking a kid to the soul purpose of educating him i have a feeling that you have been smacked more than the rest of the kids. Lots of Fun!!!:D Lol... well you certainly told me. Well done.
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Jim_in_VA
join:2004-07-11
Cobbs Creek, VA | giv'em hell DaDogs;) | |
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ArchAngel21x
MacFan Pro
Premium
join:2001-10-28
Lincoln, NE
 ·Internet Nebraska
| But don't you think that cheating in a game where you are the only player is a bit different than cheating in a game where other people are involved?
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ShootToThril
Tell The Truth
Premium
join:2004-06-07
Sherman Oaks, CA
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: What's The Fun? I see you like Final Fantasy....One of the best out there.
Yes you are correct, although sometimes beating people in a game using cheats is also fun. I would say i use cheats maybe 5% of the time when playing on-line games and 60% of the time when i play at home. I usually finish the game before using cheats. | |
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kalphearion
In nomine Patri
Premium
join:2003-11-08
Denver, CO
clubs:
·Comcast
| I bet The people putting up the big fight:
A: Don't read any EULA's/TOS's and just hit accept
B: Cheat themselves and now they are pissed off they can't anymore
Moral of the story, actually "Read" what you are accepting, then you won't have to come back and complain about it later. | |
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BVT
join:2004-10-25
Mount Juliet, TN
| NO more read the EULA BullSh-t What happens when you do not agree to the EULA? You cannot get your money back since it is opened software and still cannot play the game. You sure as hell shouldnt have to chalk it up to experience either.
The main problem here is not knowing what type of "unauthorized third-party programs" this thing is flagging. If you write your own programs and have one running, how is it to know it is authorized? How many millions of programs are out there? How does something become authorized?
In order for this Warden to work, there has to be a lot of communication between the client and server. If you did read the EULA, you are an idiot for agreeing to something that you cannot understand. Nowhere in the EULA will it completely spell out what Warden is doing and what it is looking for.
Plain ignorance. | |
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MystBlade
Premium
join:2002-10-21
Lacey, WA
clubs:
| Cheating is lame I have cheated in the past yes i have, and if you say you dont you are a liar.
However I have cheated in games and when I do i feel jipped, bored and why i just wanted 50 bucks on a game that i cheated on. And dont tell me to go back and play the same game without cheating that is just not going to happen.
This is why I do not cheat anymore until i beat a game or mastered it. Then I will allow myself to use those neat cheat codes and have fun. Cheating brings more life to a finished game that you completed.
As for WOW and any other MMORPG's Cheating is just not acceptable, #1 its never ending so you really do not get to finish the game, hence my above point ( only cheat if you finished the game without cheating.) #2 cheating in a MMORPG is just like cheating on yourself, there is not reward of self-accomplishment, heck anyone can cheat but not everyone can beat a game without cheating.
So in conclusion use cheating as a bonus or reward after you rewarded yourself with a completion of a game that you worked hard on. | |
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RoguePimp
join:2001-01-31
Phoenix, AZ
·Cox HSI
| I read the EULA but still dont like it I don't cheat. Yea I know some of you won't believe me but that's your prerogative.
I read the EULA. I don't like it but I deal with it to play. I really don't condone those that do cheat but there has to be a better way for them to detect it than to have a application running on my systems sniffing what I am running. Frankly it is none of their business, period! What is to stop some dis-gruntled employee from using it to cause damage or steal info from somebody's PC. Nothing gives them the right to see what I am running. Now I would feel better if they stated they are scanning for a specific application or tool that is a known cheat. However as I am sure many will point out it just lets the cheaters know what they are looking for and to avoid using it.
There must be a better way to check for this! With today's technology we should be able to figure something out.
Also....since they want to poke around my system, Blizzard should be forced to send out privacy notices to all their subscribers, like your credit card companies, doctors offices, and anybody else that has access to your private information. They may not directly access my info, but they have the ability! | |
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kalphearion
In nomine Patri
Premium
join:2003-11-08
Denver, CO
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: I read the EULA but still dont like it said by RoguePimp :Also....since they want to poke around my system, Blizzard should be forced to send out privacy notices to all their subscribers, like your credit card companies, doctors offices, and anybody else that has access to your private information. They may not directly access my info, but they have the ability! agree, but I think there is a privacy notice somewhere. | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
1 edit | So does Punkbuster ...plus insist on removing certain programs because they can be exploited.
»Punk vs Punk
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Tsume
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN | Well... They should have called the program that monitors "Warden" the "Governator" - that's a much better name. | |
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Nagrom Nniuq
join:2002-11-19
Springfield, OR
·Comcast
| Problem with Warden Warden is used in Diablo II as well.
The main thing to remember is DO NOT have any windows open that have any sensitive financial or personal information in them, as Warden can easily read and record all of it for anyone on Blizzards end to read at will.
That is why it is an invasion of privacy and should not be allowed. But for now it is possible to still be safe with it. | |
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Lamerville
join:2005-10-21
Pasadena, CA
| EULA of the week! quote:
Had you read the EULA when you first got the game and didn't agree to it, then you could return your game for a full refund within the first 30 days of purchase. That's the policy of Blizzard.
So does that policy still stand even after they have revised the EULA a handful of times? (just about every patch)
I can tell you if the current EULA was in place when I forst bought my game... these cd's would of been on their way back to Blizzard..
I have been a gamer all my life..
I don't cheat.. (not even single player on my 8-bit systems)
This is the first Blizzard product I have bought...
And it will surely be the last...
I think its sad that I am forced to run Spyware on my box if I wish to use their product... Other games have anti-cheat mechanics... and they don't involve spying on what other things are happening on my box...
Am I doing something that needs to be hidden?
No but I don't always play on my Game box...
Sometimes I want to login from my business laptop to play when I'm away from home..
So now that is a security risk that limits the way I can use my product... that I payed for... and have used in this manner since day one..
Thanks Blizz...
I won't be back... | |
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| Frohike
Premium
join:2000-07-23
Waxahachie, TX | Re: EULA of the week! What is in the current EULA that wasn't in there when you bought it? | |
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| mitchhoward
join:2005-07-08
Georgetown, KY
| So, just quit playing the game then. Blizzard doesn't force you to play. You are provided with a game that receives regular updates for a low monthly fee. If at any time you are unhappy with your experience with Blizzard you can feel free to cancel your subscription for whatever reason.
I too, would like to know what has been ADDED to the EULA that you no longer are happy with. | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| said by Lamerville :Other games have anti-cheat mechanics... and they don't involve spying on what other things are happening on my box... ahem ... Punk Buster
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Jim_in_VA
join:2004-07-11
Cobbs Creek, VA | Definition of " EULA" For those wondering what EULA is:
End Users License Agreement
You get the screen every time you install licensed software. | |
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ | How long... Before someone hacks Warden's outbound data stream?
10, 9, 8, 7... | |
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Norselegend
@methowvalleyonline.c |  This is Retarded
End User = you the USER
License Agreement = what you will agree to in order to play.
not much else to it now is there.
try phonics folks;) | |
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Kiwi
Premium
join:2003-05-26
USA
·Comcast
·Aristotle Internet
3 edits | Wefare recipiants Great! But keeping in mind who the large percentage of users are, less than 21 years old? They cheat by age default, these days always looking for a free ride that won't mean they have to get out of a chair and do something to pay for a programmers software developers hard work! Not to mention the buyers who get screwed over.....Below..>>>
Always had reservations on "Warden" like activities in general, but there is no greater place to have one, than gaming The "Free" ride is over, time to start getting some sort of job and pay out!
I'm reminded that I was FORCED to buy FOUR copies of CS, because two of my kids had their account stolen...
"Screw the Deadbeats" -Bring It on game developers, go for it! Damn if I want to pay more than once, for these worthless Hicks, sorta like 'Welfare gits'.
GET A JOB, BUY THE GAME!
Yer, cheaters, that's a life experience for those that do it and of course another thumbs up; because lately both A)Stolen & B)Cheaters are now getting their just deserved attention!
Covering two major issues, cheaters are also the 'Stealers'!
Cheers
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ATI 9500 Pro @ 9700 Pro @1.6v
AMD ASUS A7N8X-E ~
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| Mizfit
join:2002-06-05
Whitehall, PA
·Verizon Online DSL
·ProLog
| Re: Wefare recipiants This is a no-brain-er in my opinion. If you don't like the way Blizzard does it, don't play it. To my knowledge, no single Blizzard employee on this earth has ever been convicted of forcing someone to install any of their software. So unless your under knife somewhere at your desk by some rouge Blizzard employee...Give it up... | |
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Mentat
The zeitgeist sucks
Premium
join:2001-02-25
Sugar Land, TX | u BUNCH OF IDIOTS IT'S FINE LERN 2 PLAY | |
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| jeffmd
join:2002-08-16
Liverpool, NY
| Re: u BUNCH OF IDIOTS Amen!
Sorry guys.. but the SMART people (aka not the retards at eff.org) have allready fully observed the process of the warden program and reported that it is not a threat to any information of any kind.
The warden keeps within itself a large table of hashs (a string of letters and numbers) that are the result of KNOWN hacking programs that blizzard does not allow. It compares all running proccesses to this table, and should one match, the only thing it sends back to blizzard is the hash that matched. Remember the hash is known, and it dosn't contain any information except that it's telling blizzard what program it found running on your computer.
Aside from maybe logging in, the warden never sends anything more to blizzard unless it found a hacking program that it knows. And because the program is known, there is a much less chance of "false positives", much unlike anti viruses which almost allways have a piece of code ment to combant unknown/new viruses. | |
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devrandom
I got a pot, full of random stuff here
Premium
join:2003-06-28
| Official response to hack scanning process.. Credibility might be a question since this is from WoW itself, but nobody seems to have linked this forum posting yet.
»forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···1#post33 | |
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thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY
| One less game for me to buy. Between starforce and this, instead of just hearing what people think of PC games, I have to go researching what kind of protections they have before buying. 
Every game that has crap like this in it is a lost sale to someone like me, and perhaps to others too - I sure hope so.
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The Problem With Music.
Our Rationale
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| wilburyan
join:2002-08-01
| Re: One less game for me to buy. Stop being so paranoid... They are actively trying to stop cheaters and most of the online gaming community supports them.
The only reason Blizzard doesn't disclose much information about there "Warden" application is because that would help cheaters work around it.
Blizzard could care less about your Resume and letters to grandma. | |
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JailhouseRock
@65.19.x.x
| Three problems There are three problems with this situation.
#1 is that Blizzard effectively exists in a state of war with its customers. There is a department within the company that is basically charged with strip searching the playerbase 24x7. Everyone is a suspect. They probably think that this attitude doesn't seep into the overall game community... but they're wrong.
#2 is that although Warden is currently programmed so as not to pass confidential user data (financial, personal etc) back to Blizzard - something we know only because the smart programmers Blizzard is at war with told us - it's NOT because the EULA doesn't allow it, it's just because they're still in a relatively nice mood. Warden could change tomorrow and start shoveling everything back for "server-side analysis" and it would be equally jake with the EULA.
#3 is that the ever evolving arms race between increasingly clever independent hackers and an increasingly wrathful Blizzard counter-hacker office will sooner or later push this guerrilla war into public view where bystanders will get hurt. The thug app will start churning up false positives, or interfering with legitimate customer software and hardware.
I don't cheat and I don't hack my games, but that doesn't mean I like a PC police state just because "if you're not a criminal there's nothing to worry about." I could install something tomorrow for the weather or private banking or home control etc, and BING! the thug alarm rings, and all I can do about it is descend into the Kafkaesque "appeal process."
Even though I'm an honest player (I agree, cheating spoils the fun), if someone gave me a way to disable Warden tomorrow I might use it. I hate spyware no matter whose name is on the box. | |
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World of Warcraft Privacy Spat
