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700Mhz & 'The Highest of Theater'
Cringely on Google's billion-dollar bluff...
Bob Cringely pens a good piece dissecting the recent 700Mhz auction events for those who are completely confused. As we stated Monday, Google knew from the start that the current FCC would never support true open access, which made their recent announcement more about public relations than broadband.
quote:
"This is all the highest of theater. Chairman Martin's proposed auction rules won't actually go very far toward opening up the network. -- The bogeyman here is Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP), which is currently restricted from most U.S. mobile networks because, well, nobody can really figure out why."
Ultimately, Cringely doubts that Google is going to pony up the billions in cash needed to beat the incumbents at auction, or that the FCC's plan (they vote Tuesday) will change the competitive broadband landscape.
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FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

AT&T & Verizon Wireless will get the biggest pieces

Just because it is in their own best interests, AT&T and Verizon Wireless will make sure they get most of the 700mhz spectrum being auctioned - no matter what it costs. They then can use it as they see fit and over the timeframe that best supports the amortization of their existing infrastructure. Google is merely posturing.
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

nasadude

Member

Re: AT&T & Verizon Wireless will get the biggest pieces

said by FFH5:

... AT&T and Verizon Wireless will make sure they get most of the 700mhz spectrum being auctioned - no matter what it costs. They then can use it as they see fit and over the timeframe that best supports the amortization of their existing infrastructure. ...
absolutely true. and unfortunately what they see fit to do with it will in no way be good for the interests of consumers.

which means (as usual) the FCC is abdicating it's responsibility to consumers, the group the FCC is supposed to be looking out for and who presumably "own" this spectrum.

good thing I expect this or I would be depressed.

Raptor
Not a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON

Raptor

Member

Re: AT&T & Verizon Wireless will get the biggest pieces

said by nasadude:

good thing I expect this or I would be depressed.
Apathy for the win, I can't blame you.

It's indeed depressing that our so called 'checks and balances', the FCC in this case, are seemingly bought and paid for.

Might as well scrap the whole thing (FCC), and just leave it up to the goodwill of the corporate machine. The money they'll save on phony grass roots campaigns and lobbying stands a chance of finding a way back into infrastructure. Ha, right...

sandwidth
join:2004-10-22
Ontario, CA

sandwidth to nasadude

Member

to nasadude
said by nasadude:

absolutely true. and unfortunately what they see fit to do with it will in no way be good for the interests of consumers.

which means (as usual) the FCC is abdicating it's responsibility to consumers, the group the FCC is supposed to be looking out for and who presumably "own" this spectrum.
I agree 1000%!!!!!!!!!!!

What a total crock of sh!t. Talk about the tail wagging the dog!! I guess the FCC owns us!?!?

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3 to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Just because it is in their own best interests, AT&T and Verizon Wireless will make sure they get most of the 700mhz spectrum being auctioned - no matter what it costs. They then can use it as they see fit and over the timeframe that best supports the amortization of their existing infrastructure. Google is merely posturing.
Unfortunately I also agree. Even if Google were to win, AT&T and Verizon, having open access to the network, would cook up some scheme to make money off of it. Like have a phone that automatically switches to the 700MHz frequency when an open network is near to take load off of their network.

jester121
Premium Member
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

jester121

Premium Member

Re: AT&T & Verizon Wireless will get the biggest pieces

Those bastards, trying to make money..... the nerve of them!

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

1 recommendation

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: AT&T & Verizon Wireless will get the biggest pieces

said by jester121:

Those bastards, trying to make money..... the nerve of them!
You completely misread my post. As I own shares in T, VZ and QQQQ I definitely want to see them make money ... just in a fair and honest way that benefits everyone. I think Google's plan would give our country a technological edge so I would prefer to not see it stifled by corporate lobbying and special interest groups.
Eric Martin
join:2005-06-19
66308

Eric Martin to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
The Government here is the enemy.

Those airwaves should be shared by electronic firms who can agree on a system that doesn't cause interference.

I am against Uncle Sam,phone companies and Google.

WE WILL NEVER HAVE LOWER COST PHONES IF THESE IDIOTS HOLD OUR AIRWAVES HOSTAGE!!!!!

They are using it for their own political and economic ends.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium Member
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

Premium Member

Vision vs. the blind

It boils down to Google has vision. They have proved it time and again. They don't operate in a business as usual fashion and make killing doing it.
The telcos and the FCC do not have vision. The allow the small guys to innovate and then buy them up if it's successful. They then chew it up, poop it out, and sell it back to us at twice the price with nice restrictions all throughout the EULAs.

Jim Kirk
Premium Member
join:2005-12-09
49985

Jim Kirk

Premium Member

Re: Vision vs. the blind

Here's what I don't understand - if Google really wants the spectrum to be available according to their rules, why don't they just buy it at the auction? Once they own it, there's nothing stopping them from doing what they want with it.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

1 edit

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: Vision vs. the blind

Because, they argue, the bidding process is essentially rigged against new entrants.

Essentially they're playing a political public relations game to draw attention to the closed aspect of current wireless broadband networks. They hope the rules are changed so someone can nab the spectrum who won't impede the functionality of Google Talk, etc. (aka ADS).

Some people, and some press seem to think they'll pony up and jump in themselves, but I'd bet if they jump in it's more likely to be in concert with some coalition where they're not left running the network (Sprint/Clearwire/Google/)....

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium Member
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo to Jim Kirk

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to Jim Kirk
said by Jim Kirk:

Here's what I don't understand - if Google really wants the spectrum to be available according to their rules, why don't they just buy it at the auction? Once they own it, there's nothing stopping them from doing what they want with it.
That's exactly what I said at »Google and jives (in part) with what Karl Bode See Profile is saying. I haven't really dug deep enough into the issue to form an opinion on if Google is playing politics or not, but I think if they were to win the bid at the auction they would do a better job than anyone else at the bidding table.
LostMile
Premium Member
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI

LostMile

Premium Member

Don't let the 2 major telcos get their hands on it!

FCC should give spectrum ownership to either county or local municipalities. Let the local folks negotiate agreements with any company willing to actually deploy service in their area.

The two major telcos will most likely just sit on the spectrum and prevent anyone from actually deploying service.

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

1 recommendation

N3OGH

Premium Member

Re: Don't let the 2 major telcos get their hands on it!

said by LostMile:

FCC should give spectrum ownership to either county or local municipalities. Let the local folks negotiate agreements with any company willing to actually deploy service in their area.

The two major telcos will most likely just sit on the spectrum and prevent anyone from actually deploying service.
OMG, that would be a complete and unmitigated disaster. With approximately 85,000 different political subdivisions within the United States and associated territories, every little fiefdom would be forcing it's will on what is in essence a national resource.
LostMile
Premium Member
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI

LostMile

Premium Member

Re: Don't let the 2 major telcos get their hands on it!

said by N3OGH:

OMG, that would be a complete and unmitigated disaster.
For areas outside of the telco's redline zones, it's really rural USA's only hope of broadband. I suspect if a community wants broadband, they'll come to terms with a local provider.

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

1 recommendation

N3OGH

Premium Member

Re: Don't let the 2 major telcos get their hands on it!

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see this particular chunk of premium spectrum kept out of the hands of a mega player like Verizon or AT&T. Of course, that won't happen given the present auction system we operate under.

It will make me sick to my stomach if AT&T or Verizon buy all the capacity, and just sit on it. It would be a great disservice to the American people.

Your points concerning rural broadband are valid points. This spectrum has so much potential, and to see it not used would just suck.
myokitis
join:2004-06-19
Alexandria, VA

myokitis to N3OGH

Member

to N3OGH

Local Franchising of Wireless

said by N3OGH:

said by LostMile:
OMG, that would be a complete and unmitigated disaster. .
How true . . . can you imagine how long it would take any entity to negotiate seperate agreements w/ 85k or so counties, cities, hamlets, villages, and burgs, each w/ it's own special deals? Specail conditions for public service here, contribute toward a community swimming pool there . . . multiply times 85k.

You'll get ubiquitous coverage in about the same time it took cable to get ubiquitous . . . about 20 years or so. Remember they started in the early '70s (I believe) and were slowly expanding ever since. Slowly.
LostMile
Premium Member
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI

1 recommendation

LostMile

Premium Member

Re: Local Franchising of Wireless

said by myokitis:

How true . . . can you imagine how long it would take any entity to negotiate seperate agreements w/ 85k or so counties, cities, hamlets, villages, and burgs, each w/ it's own special deals?
That's a moot point.

There is no single entity that would want to provide service to rural areas. The phone companies certainly don't and I really doubt that Google would. Rural USA's only hope is local control of spectrum with service provided by a local ISP. The telcos don't give a phuck about rural USA. Get it???

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

Shut up a buy it.

It is an auction, bid and buy. If you want to to be open and free it will auction at that price. Grow up little children, there is no free lunch.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

2 recommendations

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: Shut up a buy it.

Yeah, step into that booby-trapped ring with the paid off referee and fight those two eight foot giants like a man!

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

N3OGH

Premium Member

Re: Shut up a buy it.

Ooooo, we could have an "Escape From New York" Fight.

Take the rock'em sock'em robots, give them spiked base ball bats and trashcan lids for shields.

...the name's Pliskin.....

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup to Karl Bode

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to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode:

Yeah, step into that booby-trapped ring with the paid off referee and fight those two eight foot giants like a man!
Three choices that will work; one, government supported (socialist/tax-and-spend) open networks; two, free enterprise (capitalist) network; three, controlled monopoly (Ma Bell).

The government putting limits and demands on a business without a guaranteed return on investment is what dropped US from 1st to 18th.
bmn
? ? ?

join:2001-03-15
hiatus

bmn

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by batterup:

The government putting limits and demands on a business without a guaranteed return on investment is what dropped US from 1st to 18th.
Still selectively looking at the facts... I mean, gee, the US dropping from 1st to 18th had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the telco culture and management style... Oh no, not one iota.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by bmn:

said by batterup:

The government putting limits and demands on a business without a guaranteed return on investment is what dropped US from 1st to 18th.
Still selectively looking at the facts... I mean, gee, the US dropping from 1st to 18th had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the telco culture and management style... Oh no, not one iota.
TPC was not going to invest billions in a network and give it away. TPC is not going to pay for spectrum if they have to give it away.

Sound management makes money for the owners of the company. Sound management does not give the company away to leeches.

I'll see your and raise you
bmn
? ? ?

join:2001-03-15
hiatus

bmn

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by batterup:

TPC was not going to invest billions in a network and give it away. TPC is not going to pay for spectrum if they have to give it away.

Sound management makes money for the owners of the company. Sound management does not give the company away to leeches.

I'll see your and raise you
I'll raise you a fact since you don't have any... The Bells were never serious about investing in fibre or any major upgrades anyway. Need you be reminded how many times they promised state regulatory agencies they would deliver next gen networks and then renigged on those deals?

Additionally, with respect to all your pontificating about the "leeches"... Perhaps you need to be reminded that the Bells also AGREED willingly to allowing competitors on their networks.

And you want to talk about investing... You DO realize that it is cheaper for the Bells just to sit with copper instead of delivering. Why upgrade today when you can do it in ten years... Twenty years... Thirty years... The decision not to move forward is because the Bells are just going to milk copper for all its worth, despite the fact that they have recouped that investment several times over. And look at the one Bell who IS investing - Verizon. Their investors are screaming because instead of using the crap copper network that they admit they have, they have the nerve to eat into profits and upgrade the network.

Management and the Bellhead culture... THAT is why the US lags behind.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by bmn:

said by batterup:

TPC was not going to invest billions in a network and give it away. TPC is not going to pay for spectrum if they have to give it away.

Sound management makes money for the owners of the company. Sound management does not give the company away to leeches.

I'll see your and raise you
I'll raise you a fact since you don't have any... The Bells were never serious about investing in fibre or any major upgrades anyway. Need you be reminded how many times they promised state regulatory agencies they would deliver next gen networks and then renigged on those deals?

Additionally, with respect to all your pontificating about the "leeches"... Perhaps you need to be reminded that the Bells also AGREED willingly to allowing competitors on their networks.

And you want to talk about investing... You DO realize that it is cheaper for the Bells just to sit with copper instead of delivering. Why upgrade today when you can do it in ten years... Twenty years... Thirty years... The decision not to move forward is because the Bells are just going to milk copper for all its worth, despite the fact that they have recouped that investment several times over. And look at the one Bell who IS investing - Verizon. Their investors are screaming because instead of using the crap copper network that they admit they have, they have the nerve to eat into profits and upgrade the network.

Management and the Bellhead culture... THAT is why the US lags behind.
I didn't see any facts you only quoted Teletruth lies.
bmn
? ? ?

join:2001-03-15
hiatus

1 recommendation

bmn

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by batterup:

I didn't see any facts you only quoted Teletruth lies.
That's funny... The stuff I just posted about is DOCUMENTED in public record that, if you didn't exude such intellectual laziness, you could find on your own.

But hey, that might challenge your deep seated faith-based view toward the Bells.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by bmn:

said by batterup:

I didn't see any facts you only quoted Teletruth lies.
That's funny... The stuff I just posted about is DOCUMENTED in public record that, if you didn't exude such intellectual laziness, you could find on your own.

But hey, that might challenge your deep seated faith-based view toward the Bells.
Post one link that is not Teletruth, just one.
bmn
? ? ?

join:2001-03-15
hiatus

1 edit

bmn

Re: Shut up a buy it.

»findarticles.com/p/artic ··· 10307584

You want anything else, you are free to do the research on your own. Do not expect other people to compensate for your inability to do research on your own.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by bmn:

»findarticles.com/p/artic ··· 10307584

You want anything else, you are free to do the research on your own. Do not expect other people to compensate for your inability to do research on your own.
Oh come on, you know people like that bank off of the fact most people won't do research. Who are you to prove him wrong.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

1 edit

batterup

Premium Member

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by Matt3:

said by bmn:

»findarticles.com/p/artic ··· 10307584

You want anything else, you are free to do the research on your own. Do not expect other people to compensate for your inability to do research on your own.
Oh come on, you know people like that bank off of the fact most people won't do research. Who are you to prove him wrong.
If the people that live in Pennsylvania are happy why does a person in North Carolina have a problem?

»I am torn on this one

••••
batterup

batterup to bmn

Premium Member

to bmn
said by bmn:

»findarticles.com/p/artic ··· 10307584

You want anything else, you are free to do the research on your own. Do not expect other people to compensate for your inability to do research on your own.
What does that have to do with anything you said? People in PA can get broadband if they want it.
quote:
At the end of 2006, Verizon was making high-speed Internet available to more than 80% of lines in its Pennsylvania territory, and was ahead of schedule for meeting its Chapter 30 obligations to deliver broadband to 100% of its Pennsylvania service territory by 2015.
»www22.verizon.com/about/ ··· dex.html

••••

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK to batterup

Premium Member

to batterup
Teletruth facts.... Just because the Telco doesn't like the facts doesn't make them lies.
KrK

KrK to batterup

Premium Member

to batterup
Interesting. Open Networks = Socialism, Tax and spend.



I know what won't work, an unregulated Monopoly or Oligopoly. Which is exactly what is the likely outcome, due to the FCC's non-existent oversight and enforcement.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3 to Karl Bode

Premium Member

to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode:

Yeah, step into that booby-trapped ring with the paid off referee and fight those two eight foot giants like a man!
Exactly, I don't think most people realize that yeah, Google has loads of cash, but AT&T, BY THEMSELVES, has more at their disposal. Combine that with the might of Verizon's Wireless division and the fact they don't want this to succeed and ding their FiOS division and, unfortunately, Google is outmanned.

I think Cringley stated it perfectly.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: Shut up a buy it.

quote:
Exactly, I don't think most people realize that yeah, Google has loads of cash, but AT&T, BY THEMSELVES, has more at their disposal.
Not only that, but Google just started lobbying last Thursday or so. Compared to AT&T, who in conjunction with Verizon probably has the most effective lobbying and public relations policy machine ever built.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

Re: Shut up a buy it.

said by Karl Bode:

Compared to AT&T, who in conjunction with Verizon probably has the most effective lobbying and public relations policy machine ever built.
"Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station" ...

sandwidth
join:2004-10-22
Ontario, CA

sandwidth

Member

What's up w/ the VOIP comment?????

I don't get what he means by VOIP being the boogey man???


Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: What's up w/ the VOIP comment?????

The incumbents don't allow competing voice services like Skype over their existing 3G networks, and likely will do everything in their power to block those services on any newly built 700Mhz-based broadband network.

Though it's more than VoIP at stake of course, it's video, etc.

n1zuk
making really tiny tech things
Premium Member
join:2001-10-24
Malta

n1zuk

Premium Member

The Bogeyman

quote:
The bogeyman here is Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP), which is currently restricted from most U.S. mobile networks because, well, nobody can really figure out why."

I can (at least, from a technical standpoint) -- bandwidth and latency. The current networks just don't have the horsepower to deal with it, and the owners of those networks (the wireless providers) aren't ready to give up their beach head.

Digital cellular voice, when you come down to it, *is* a VOIP protocol, at least over the last mile, the cell tower to your hand set. It is optimized the best they can (which still has drop outs and marginal sound quality). You can try and replicate it on 3G data paths, but you still are going to saturate your available bandwidth, unless you are willing to drop to a lower quality/higher compression codec. And if the bandwidth doesn't get you, the latency will.

Current cellular wireless data networks aren't yet up to the task. And it will fall flat on it's face when many people are trying to do the same over the same cell tower. Just like having a bunch of P2P and gamers on your cable node.

In the future? As technology improves, perhaps the networks will be more robust to accommodate the needed bandwidth.

•••
bac522
join:2003-08-04
Manchester, NH

bac522

Member

Make it part of the unlicense spectrum

The bandwidth should be put in to the unlicensed spectrum. Frequency is own by the American public and shouldn't be own by any one company. The old argument that you would get interference from everyone using the frequency is just that...OLD! Would interference exist...sure...but with digital technology it is more then easy enough to develop devices that are able to see through the interference...just look at wi-fi. When radio signals are digitized the interference argument gets completely thrown out the window...How do I know...well lets just say I was involved with the IEEE 802.11 working group that developed the first iteration of wi-fi so I have some familiarity with wireless signals !
Eric Martin
join:2005-06-19
66308

1 edit

Eric Martin

Member

Re: Make it part of the unlicense spectrum

EXACTLY Bac.

New radios don't have interference problems.

Operate the frequency like a public trust or park.

Set standards and allow free use.

These airwaves = FREE SPEECH. Shouldn't be he held hostage and taxed.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op ··· spectrum
»www.greaterdemocracy.org ··· FAQ.html
»www.openspectrum.info/