Placebo Premium Member join:2005-12-14 Huntley, IL |
Placebo
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 4:10 pm
Max 6 mbps? | |
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| MorfeinLead Peon Premium Member join:2004-09-08 Brownsburg, IN |
Morfein
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 4:16 pm
Re: Max 6 mbps?I must have missed the 6Mbps you are talking about. I can already get 6 down from at&t/yahoo dsl. So I'm guessing you misread something????? | |
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| | rugbyI think I know it all. join:2000-09-26 Plainfield, IN |
rugby
Member
2006-Jan-31 4:23 pm
Re: Max 6 mbps?page 110 | |
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| | | audiog join:2004-08-09 Detroit, MI |
audiog
Member
2006-Jan-31 5:10 pm
Re: Max 6 mbps?that is in addition to IPTV. | |
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to Morfein
I have already heard about this. If you get their IPTV solution, it will suck up so much bandwidth that your internet will only be able to go up to 6mbps.
I have also heard that SBC... ATT will allow you to get tiers up to 25mbps if you do not get IPTV. Of course this is a rumor. They may stick with 6 max for a while. I think it will hurt them in the long run.
Either way, I am switching to cable after my current contract expires (in about 5 months). My local cable co. is offering 10mbps for the same price as ATTs 6mbps tier. As far as I am concerned, ATT is no longer competing and therefore will no longer be my internet provider (on top of Whiteache asking Google/Yahoo to pay fees). | |
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| | | en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2006-Jan-31 7:10 pm
Re: Max 6 mbps?my cable company here is too pricey, and I don't like M$, so I'll stick with DirecTv for now, and see what comes up in another year. | |
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to jimbo21503
ADSL2+ allows pair bonding same as the much beloved and championed DOCSIS 3.0 | |
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| | | | justbitsDSL is dead. Long live DSL! Premium Member join:2003-01-08 Chicago, IL |
justbits
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 10:05 pm
Re: Max 6 mbps?By the way, VDSL2 can be bonded too. I'm betting we'll see bonded VDSL2 getting deployed eventually.
--justbits | |
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Re: Max 6 mbps?Hmmm... VDSL2's base rate is 100Mb/s. Isn't DOCSIS 3.0 only 38 Mb/s with bonding available? I know I said 30 in a previous thread but I just looked up the numbers. | |
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| | | | | | justbitsDSL is dead. Long live DSL! Premium Member join:2003-01-08 Chicago, IL |
justbits
Premium Member
2006-Feb-1 8:18 am
Re: Max 6 mbps?From this site: » www.cablemodem.com/primer/DOCSIS 3.0 will increase the capacity to a minimum of 160 Mbps downstream to customers and by a minimum of 120 Mbps upstream.
Besides that, the term bonding, when used in DOCSIS 3.0, seems to be on a frequency domain basis in the same cable. They're bonding multiple previously unused "TV channels" (you can think of them that way) together to get more bandwidth on the same coax. I don't believe DOCSIS 3.0 has the capability to run two coax cables to your home and double your speed. VDSL2 will be able to do bonding by using a different, independent pair of telephone lines. But notice that with VDSL2, upstream-vs-distance chart (» www.convergedigest.com/b ··· y=Loop)? 5mbps at 5000 feet from the RT is likely the "sweet spot" that ATaT is trying to provide. This way, they can recondition neighborhoods to bring everybody to within 5000 feet of a RT and still provide a package that "scales" for everybody without overtaxing the existing network infrastructure. I believe that when it first rolls out, it will be very unlikely for it to be packaged with anything over 2mpbs of upload. In fact, I suspect they'll align VDSL2 data with the existing packages at 6.0mbps/768kbps initially (with a matching price tag)... unless future cable products inspire competition on the upload bandwidth side of the world. Even if everyone were conditioned to be 3000 feet from the RT or CO, the VDSL2 max upload still only reaches 30mbps, compared to DOCSIS 3.0's 120mbps. But, one thing to consider is that DOCSIS 3.0 is still a shared medium. Everyone in the neighborhood has to share that pipe. I don't think they'll sell the pipe at the max speed because customers would never actually obtain that speed if other people are using the shared pipe at the same time. --justbits | |
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| justbits |
to Placebo
According to the projections for ADSL2+ (24mbps) and VDSL (50mbps) and VDSL2 (100mbps), the 6mbps estimate is only for the Internet data portion of the DSL connection. The rest is for HDTV. They want 1 HD channel and 3 SD channels. This is likely just a conservative entry-to-market ploy. I'm sure this 1 HD, 3SD configuration will change in the future.
HD channels come in between 12 (720p) to 16 mbps (1080i) MPEG2 compressed. Or 3mbps (480i-SD), 6 (720p), 9 (960p), to 12 mbps (1080i) MPEG4 compressed. I believe the Microsoft solution uses MP4 compresion.
Given those approximate numbers, you see anywhere from 20 to 25 mbps dedicated to video bandwidth.
Besides that, the 6mbps max fits within the current bandwidth of the DSL "products" sold today.
I'm sure that the current 6mbps target for Internet data is a conservative marketplace entry starting point. Why sell a 50 mbps VDSL2 Internet connection today for more than $500/mo (a conceptually percieved value of 50mbps compared to the 6mbps Expert Pro package sold today) when you can sell 6mpbs for a lower price that fits linearly with the current price scale. The bonus is that they sell us more bandwidth without overutilizing their new backend network, while maintaining the currently "attainable" perception of the price of bandwidth.
Remember... when ADSL was first being sold, it was for 128kbps/128kbps speeds? Some of those original lines that were rated at 128/128 then and now were always capable of doing 8mbps/1mbps. Fiber and VDSL/VDSL2 are going to be sold to the masses the same way. Start by selling less bandwidth than you really are actually able to provide... every few months release new DSL "products." (Yes, I realize there is a good amount of backend network upgrading going on at the same time.)
Another way to look at this is that by not fully utilizing the capacity of ADSL right up front, they were able to continously "upgrade" our bandwidth and extend the functional life of ADSL while skipping ADSL2+ and VDSL and jumping right to VDSL2 and FTTP.
--justbits | |
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| | maartenaElmo Premium Member join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA |
maartena
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 6:14 pm
Re: Max 6 mbps?I believe that IPTV works a lot different, it doesn't use part of the bandwidth at all, but it uses its own protocol. I have 2 TV's in the house, and a DVR that can record two things at the same time, and I can watch TV on the other TV as well. You cannot possibly tell me that AT&T is rolling out a network that will only allow me to record two HDTV (2x12=24?) shows at a time on a DVR (and yes, all the main networks broadcast shows on equal timeslots I will want to see) and there not being any space for another channel to be watched in the bedroom, while cooking dinner, or in the kids rooms that want to watch nickolodeon? Just like Cable TV and Cable Modems are separated out, I think IPTV is not a good name (neither is Cable "modem" technically) and that it uses its own set of protocols and operates more like regular cable TV. If it is true what you are saying and there is only 25 Mbps for video (which is 2 HDTV channels being watched at the same time), AT&T is already building an obsolete network. My neighbour has 4 TV's (2 of which HDTV), all hooked up to digital cable (livingroom, bedroom, 2 kids rooms) and has a DVR (dual tuner) in the iving room, so there could be as many as 3 HDTV programs (2 in livingroom and 1 in bedroom) and 2 SD programs coming into their livingroom at the same time. The same is pretty much possible with satellite AND with FIOSTV from Verizon. And on top of that they have 8 Mbps cable (RoadRunner premium). If that setup can't work on the AT&T connection due to lack of bandwidth, I think I either don't understand it right, or AT&T is making a big mistake! | |
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| | | silica join:2004-05-20 Duluth, GA |
silica
Member
2006-Jan-31 7:25 pm
Re: Max 6 mbps?If you want 3 HDTV channels simultaneously for viewing and DVR, it isn't going to work with Lightspeed's 25 Mbps. Even at the optimistic 6 Mbps MPEG4 compression, that will already consume 18 Mbps.
IPTV is completely different, not from IP, but from current TV which is rf modulated, whether today's Fios, cable, over the air broadcast, i.e. all signals are broadcast simultaneously and you tune into one frequency (like radio). With IPTV, you only get one or a few channels at a time, not hundreds at a time. So your request has to go upstream to a server, which then has to switch your signal to the new channel. Channel change time is an issue with IPTV.
So, you do add everything together, e.g. 6 Mbps (for one HDTV channel) + 6 Mbps (for DVR) + 2 Mbps (one SD) + 2 Mbps (another SD) + 6 Mbps internet + headroom = 25 Mbps. Alternative: lay fiber to the curb, maybe bond two channels and get up to 50 Mbps. Or, go FTTH all the way! It's a gamble either way. Build on the cheap and pray that the technology isn't obsolete (for the masses, it's already obsolete for you!) in a few years when people hopefully want several HDTV channels and 30-50 Mbps internet; or spend like Verizon and pray that enough people sign up to justify spending $500-1000 per home. | |
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Re: Max 6 mbps?Here's the lovely part of Bells plan which every shortsighted person hates.
Laying FTTC, you have optical to the remote is converted to copper then split into a DISCS/MX then is converted back to optical and sent to the curb which is converted back into copper. The next progression is just lay extra fiber pairs to the remote, match up each pedestal to a free fiber, run a fiber strand to each house from the pedestal, change out the CO and customer end and voila.... FIOS servide at a staggered cost.
Meanwhile DISCS/MX users would just have to suffer with 100Mb/s | |
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Irun Man Premium Member join:2002-10-18 Millsboro, DE |
Irun Man
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 4:14 pm
big dealThe new AT&T, Verizon and a few munis are making some inroads with fiber. Sadly I still live in (sigh) Frontier Tel territory... I don't seriously believe we'll see either of those technologies her in my lifetime. They just rolled out 3MBPS DSL here a couple of months ago. | |
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Were is it nowDoes anyone know of a website that updates on were LightSpeed is now and were it will be next????????? | |
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FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 4:25 pm
Cautious about AT&T consumer interestAll business presentations to Wall St emphasize the positive, including the speed at which they plan to rollout Project Lightspeed. But one of the slides I saw gives me pause. And that is that 77% of AT&T revenue comes from their business customers and only 23% comes from the consumer. And I'd bet an arm and a leg that an even higher percentage of their profits comes from the business side. That just means that if they have a problem meeting profit projections for any quarter that the 1st costs to be cut will be on the consumer side. Project Lightspeed is therefore at risk if the economy slows down for any reason. So I would be a little more conservative in projecting how fast Lightspeed rolls out than what was presented today on Wall St. | |
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| packetscan Premium Member join:2004-10-19 Bridgeport, CT |
Re: Cautious about AT&T consumer interestI'm starting to think you are a lobbyist. | |
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Re: Cautious about AT&T consumer interestHow does being able to read a presentation and apply a practical knowledge of business make someone a lobbyist? | |
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| | | FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 6:00 pm
Re: Cautious about AT&T consumer interestsaid by footballdude:How does being able to read a presentation and apply a practical knowledge of business make someone a lobbyist? And you are right. I am not a lobbyist and never was. I am retired, but spent the last 10 yrs on the job negotiating with telecomm vendors for services. So I know how they think. | |
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| | | packetscan Premium Member join:2004-10-19 Bridgeport, CT |
to footballdude
Easy..
His View seems to side with MEGACORPS *cough great */cough idea's most of the time.
Thus the lobby comment | |
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Re: Cautious about AT&T consumer interestIt is just to costly and not enough return, or the return is decent, but they will immediately have to upgrade again. | |
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| | | | 2kmaroThink
join:2000-07-11 Oklahoma City, OK
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to packetscan
[drag moderator soap box into the forum] Ok - let's drop the personal stuff. In the first place, I don't see packetscan insulting anyone's integrity. Not if you actually read what he wrote here: said by packetscan: I'm starting to think you are a lobbyist.
Simply stating an opinion/observation/feeling. Nothing at all wrong with that. It actually brings out a question which FFH5 responded rationally and calmly to later. People have opinions - they may be expressed here at BBR so long as they don't incite to riot or personally attack any other visitor/member at the site in the process. Thank You [puts moderator soap box away] | |
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to FFH5
Don't be so sure. T has many government contracts that keep them floating. As long as they don't pull a WorldCon, they will be propped up by our federal gov't. T just won a 1Bil+ contract, then the GAO suspended it. They will win it again. Oh wait, MCI still got awarded contracts AFTER the scandal. Nevermind. | |
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JonR800 Premium Member join:2003-08-06 Farmington, MI |
JonR800
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 4:31 pm
Let me get this straight.1 HD stream. So if you have multiple HD sets you can not stream to both at the same time? Or if you attempt to record an HD stream and flip to another HD channel with your DVR you can not? Also it leaves us at 6 Mbps internet access.....
So what are the advantages again??? The services outlined are outdated as of a year ago. LAME. | |
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| bmn? ? ?
join:2001-03-15 hiatus |
Re: Let me get this straight.Yeah, I'm none too psyched about this annoucement... Having multiple HD sets in our home, where people are probably going to watch multiple HD streams, this product certainly lags behind...
Of course I live in Bellsouth-land where it will be next century before we see anything this interesting... | |
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Gimme a break to JonR800
Anon
2006-Feb-1 10:18 am
to JonR800
You guys are watching way too much TV in your households if one HDTV channel at a time isn't adequate for now.
Gimme a break....let the HDTV be for programs that make it worthwhile...send the kids to watch low def cartoons I don't think anything will be lost. | |
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lightspeedI sure hope the people on here begging for Project Lightspeed to come to their area are not the same concerned with At&t's new two-tier Internet tax plans. You should be going with anything but At&t, Verizon, or BellSouth. Get cable or independent DSL and VoIP. » hotcarl.diaryland.com | |
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Re: lightspeedUnfortunately, not everyone has the alternatives available to them.
As for me, I stated this above, I am going to switch back to my cable co as soon as my contract expires.
I used to be interested in and wanted Lightspeed, now it just seems like a half-ass, half-hearted attept at satisfying a bunch of couch potatos. They couldn't give a hoot about people who are looking for bandwidth.
Many companies are holding off on providing SD TV over the internet untill speeds in the US increase. Guess which company(ies) customers will be left in the dust in a year or two? | |
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DMS1 join:2005-04-06 Plano, TX |
DMS1
Member
2006-Jan-31 4:47 pm
3SD and 1HD streamOnly allowing 3SD and 1HD stream per property doesn't seem anywhere near enough. I would have thought that if you were starting deployment of a new network now you should aim to have enough bandwidth for 5 1080p HD streams to make it future proof. I can easily see the price of a 1080p HD receiver dropping to a level comparable in real terms to a decent SD receiver now, within the next decade.
Having said that, this would need about 60Mbps of bandwidth if using MPEG4. a GPON-based FTTP solution could handle this, but I doubt any xDSL variant will ever come close. | |
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Re: 3SD and 1HD streamWhy future proof something that will be upgraded later to handle the future?
And VDSL2 handles 100Mb/s if within 1000 ft of the optical pedestal at your curb. If you're within a mile of a copper remote you'll come up short at 50mb/s | |
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dadkinsCan you do Blu? MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA |
Ok, here it is again...... if this is going to need xxmbps to deliver 1HD and 3SD channels + 6mbps of internet, WTF kind of bandwidth is being pumped into my Comcast cable?
Tell me how this is appealing in any way? | |
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The way I see itI'm going to stick to DirecTV and plain DSL 1.5/384 since it seems to work fine for the time being. | |
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| Geminimind Premium Member join:2003-12-20 Sacramento, CA |
Re: The way I see itYeah me too except I have pro | |
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what about naked DSL??what about naked DSL?? for them to roll out fiber and tv here in TX they where told to roll naked DSL . i have not seen that yet. | |
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BiggA Premium Member join:2005-11-23 Central CT ·Frontier FiberOp.. Asus RT-AC68
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BiggA
Premium Member
2006-Jan-31 8:45 pm
ugh$4.4B total? Thats pathetic. For ATT, it sould to 20B or 50B a year for the next 5 years. They need to get 100% coverage at 1000mbps internet, plus unlimited HD streams and a few phone lines. They need to figure out that what the cable company is offering will kick the butt of any VDSL IPTV system, but that their fiber could kick the butt of any cable system. That, and cable it not even fully untilized yet, with next generation technologies of 50mbps internet AND video at the SAME time, while keeping older DOCSIS users on the DOCSIS system at 10mbps, while not degrading the higher end user's connections. Also, the digital phone technologies are supposed to be getting better. Maybe the VDSL would be cool, if they offer it faster than cable, but the IPTV will suck, and cable will just get faster to stay on top.
ATT executives: it is as simple as this: drop fiber to the home with Fios-like technology or lose a lot of market share. | |
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allineedtosay
Anon
2006-Jan-31 11:27 pm
It speaks for itself....Until ATT/SBC see the light (which is to say ultra-high-speed-fiber)
BOYCOTT ATT/SBC! DO NOT BUY A SINGLE SERVICE FROM THEM! That includes the 50+million cingular wireless.. as soon as your out of contract, SWITCH, and take your number with you!!!! | |
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They need to hurry up with fiosI am not worried about HDTV yet(2008) just give me 25mbs and I am good plus the Nintindo Revolution(cant wait till its release date ) wont use HD anyway | |
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