 rileyjam514
There You Go Again...
join:2005-06-26
Kearny, NJ
| Let's not forget.... ... the commercials running on Cablevision and Comcast services (I have Comcast, family has Cablevision) which pound into the consumer's mind the idea that EVIL VERIZON is lobbying Trenton to institute an additional "cable tax" that even if you don't use the service or can't get it, you'll be charged.
I'm all for competition, but let's at least be honest here, boys!
Has anyone else seen these "Verizon Cable Tax" commericals, with the group of people putting bags of money into a garbage.. thing..?
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Abortion is murder, Reagan was a hero, Clinton was a sleazeball, Iraq is much better off without Saddam, and the telcos are not trustworthy with American tax dollars. There! I've managed to offend a significant portion of BBR! | |
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i5050MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI
| Here's my horror story.... I tried to upgrade my Ameritech/SBC/AT&T dialup but DSL is not available here. The archaic telco did offer 128k ISDN but wanted $200/mo just for the line, ISP was an additional charge.
Thankfully, Comcast CABLE offers 8800k HSI for a much more reasonable fee. Comcast cable ROCKS!
Now, where do I collect my ipod? | |
|  | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | Re: Here's my horror story.... I could get cable TV where I used to live, if I ponied up the couple thousand for them to run the line. Not sure if that included internet. | |
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i5050MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI
| Re: Here's my horror story.... said by bogey780  :I could get cable TV where I used to live, if I ponied up the couple thousand for them to run the line. Not sure if that included internet. Reminds me of a T1 quote I got from some CLEC back around 2000-2001. If I recall correctly, it was ~$3000 install and $1200/month for 2 year contract. Ouch!
Gawd I love Comcast!! | |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| Propoganda.. by both sides But it does provide interesting ammo.
The cable ad I just viewed brought up a VERY interesting point that the telco's are desperate to downplay. Basically, to get a statewide franchise (which verizon desperately wants), it gives the telco's the ability to pick and choose not just towns, but NEIGHBORHOODS to wire up. I'd never thought of that aspect, but it does make sense..
Why should verizon have to wire up the 'other side of the tracks' with FIOS if they want to provide TV in my town? I mean, it won't be a profit center for verizon, so why should that have to do it? Well, the same reason COMCAST had to do it, the local government demanded equal access for ALL it's citizens, not just the rich ones. If Verizon wants to provide FIOS in my town, then it does it for ALL citizens, not just the 'rich people'. Guess what, that's the power of democracy overriding the greed of capitalism, as it should be. If verizon wants to service my town, then verizon does it under MY RULES.
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Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it. | |
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reub2000
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Evanston, IL | Re: Propoganda.. by both sides I wasn't aware that Cable TV (or CATV over Fiber, IPTV, or Satalite) is that important. | |
| | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| said by G_Poobah :Why should verizon have to wire up the 'other side of the tracks' with FIOS if they want to provide TV in my town? I mean, it won't be a profit center for verizon, so why should that have to do it? Well, the same reason COMCAST had to do it, the local government demanded equal access for ALL it's citizens, not just the rich ones. If Verizon wants to provide FIOS in my town, then it does it for ALL citizens, not just the 'rich people'. Guess what, that's the power of democracy overriding the greed of capitalism, as it should be. If verizon wants to service my town, then verizon does it under MY RULES. If you turned your trolling to other sections of the site, especially ones that address FIOS installs in neighborhoods, you will notice actual users that had FIOS installed in rich, middle class, and lower class neighborhoods.
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Bring back chicken and potato chips - Vote Perot! | |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides Wow, you want to apologize for Verizon? Lets look at the FACTS..
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···id=67123
"Specifically, the two carriers operate under very different cable franchise agreements. One big point of contention is that Charter was required to provide service to everyone in Keller under its agreement. Verizon, however, is only required to serve those in its territory -- and it has the option to come back at a later date and build out its network to reach into SBC's territory."
Why the hell should Verizon get a 'free pass' when Comcrap got slapped down. BOTH of the companies are acting like monopolies, and trying to screw the customer as much as possible. It's called capitalism. Luckily for us, we have democracy to bitchslap them back to reality. Companies exist to service us, the customers, not the other way around. Once they get too big and greedy, they all seem to forget that.
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Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it. | |
| | | | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides Nice deflection, but I was responding to your comment of:
said by G_Poobah :Why should verizon have to wire up the 'other side of the tracks' with FIOS if they want to provide TV in my town? I mean, it won't be a profit center for verizon, so why should that have to do it? So, again, as I stated before...FIOS has been confirmed by plenty of members of this site that it has been wired in high, middle, and low income areas, therefore putting a kink in your "cherry picking" conspiracy...
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Bring back chicken and potato chips - Vote Perot! | |
| | | | | Cod
join:2000-07-05
Greensboro, NC
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides said by achuchma :So, again, as I stated before...FIOS has been confirmed by plenty of members of this site that it has been wired in high, middle, and low income areas, therefore putting a kink in your "cherry picking" conspiracy... Well said. And that's a fact. | |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| Kink? Cherry picking? What the hell are you talking about..
Cherry picking means that they can wire up part of a town, and not the other part. What they are wiring up now for FIOS TV is between verizon and the town verizon signed with. If the franchise agreement says 'you can wire up this neighborhood first, and the others next year', well that's the agreement the TOWN reached. The problem occurs when you remove the elected town officials from the picture.
Verizon, once they don't have to deal with town governments, is obviously going to wire up area's that they get the greatest return from. And that's going to be the area's where they think they will get the highest number of customers. And THAT's going to tend to be the affluent towns. There's no point in arguing that I'm wrong, because the SHAREHOLDERS will demand that verizon get the best returns, and the scenario I described is the winning capitalist technique. Why in the hell would verizon spend millions wiring up parts of a town where only 1% of the people would sign up? That would be a poor business decision.
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Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it. | |
| | | | | | Cod
join:2000-07-05
Greensboro, NC
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides said by G_Poobah :Kink? Cherry picking? What the hell are you talking about.. The kink he is talking about is the obvious one in your conspiracy theory that Verizon FIOS only caters to the rich. Completely false.
Every point you try to bring up is nothing more than pure speculation and anti-telco opinions on your behalf. Never factual, as usual. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
 ·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides Two points:
First, while Verizon is apparently wiring some less affluent ares, is this perhaps only because they are required to do so? Since this discussion is about the elimination of agreements which require "build-out", it seems reasonable to ask if the requirement is the reason for their "good behavior" so far.
Second, this discussion is about what will be POSSIBLE in the future. While past activities may give some indication of what a corporation will do in the future, many believe that corporations sometimes change their approach. Accordingly, a theory that VZ might cater only to the rich (or build to them first) in the future merits discussion.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Patriot Media
 ·Cingular Wireless
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| said by achuchma :Nice deflection, but I was responding to your comment of: said by G_Poobah :Why should verizon have to wire up the 'other side of the tracks' with FIOS if they want to provide TV in my town? I mean, it won't be a profit center for verizon, so why should that have to do it? So, again, as I stated before...FIOS has been confirmed by plenty of members of this site that it has been wired in high, middle, and low income areas, therefore putting a kink in your "cherry picking" conspiracy... But do they have to ? What is to prevent from cherry picking in the future? I guess verizon can just do as it pleases without penalty. | |
| | | | | | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides said by DaveNJ :said by achuchma :Nice deflection, but I was responding to your comment of: said by G_Poobah :Why should verizon have to wire up the 'other side of the tracks' with FIOS if they want to provide TV in my town? I mean, it won't be a profit center for verizon, so why should that have to do it? So, again, as I stated before...FIOS has been confirmed by plenty of members of this site that it has been wired in high, middle, and low income areas, therefore putting a kink in your "cherry picking" conspiracy... But do they have to ? What is to prevent from cherry picking in the future? I guess verizon can just do as it pleases without penalty. No, they are under no requirements to wire FIOS in any order at this point and time; however, given how the roll out of FIOS occurred across income class, it is unlikely that Verizon will change direction.
I think (this is opinion, based on industry rumors), that FIOS is basically intended to replace Verizon's copper plant, which means all Verizon serviced areas will be on FIOS sooner or later. This, of course, takes time just like when cable was rolled out.
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Bring back chicken and potato chips - Vote Perot! | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Patriot Media
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides said by achuchma :No, they are under no requirements to wire FIOS in any order at this point and time; however, given how the roll out of FIOS occurred across income class, it is unlikely that Verizon will change direction. I think (this is opinion, based on industry rumors), that FIOS is basically intended to replace Verizon's copper plant, which means all Verizon serviced areas will be on FIOS sooner or later. This, of course, takes time just like when cable was rolled out. So in 2 years i can expect fios ? | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | Re: Propoganda.. by both sides Document what he's saying so that in three years, when the majority of rural middle-class America is still waiting for Fios, you can perhaps get a coupon? | |
| | | | | | | | | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides said by Karl Bode :Document what he's saying so that in three years, when the majority of rural middle-class America is still waiting for Fios, you can perhaps get a coupon? I doubt that we will see FIOS on a grand scale within three years. The costs involved with installing the service will more than likely keep deployments at a steady, but slow pace.
I can only speak from what has been documented here with other FIOS customers, and so far, we have seen FIOS installs span the income brackets.
Is it possible that Verizon can change direction on FIOS deployments? Of course! However, since FIOS is in its infancy, if Verizon wanted to cherry pick affluent areas, one would assume that now would be the time to do it.
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Bring back chicken and potato chips - Vote Perot! | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Patriot Media
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
February 22nd, @12:37PM
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides said by achuchma :said by Karl Bode :Document what he's saying so that in three years, when the majority of rural middle-class America is still waiting for Fios, you can perhaps get a coupon? I doubt that we will see FIOS on a grand scale within three years. The costs involved with installing the service will more than likely keep deployments at a steady, but slow pace. I can only speak from what has been documented here with other FIOS customers, and so far, we have seen FIOS installs span the income brackets. Is it possible that Verizon can change direction on FIOS deployments? Of course! However, since FIOS is in its infancy, if Verizon wanted to cherry pick affluent areas, one would assume that now would be the time to do it. So if verizon is going to take its time doing a builtout, why do they need a statewide franchise? By the time they get near to being usable by the customer, they could be on there 2nd local franchise deal. | |
| | | | | | | | | | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides said by DaveNJ :So if verizon is going to take its time doing a buildout, why do they need a statewide franchise? By the time they get near to being usable by the customer, they could be on there 2nd local franchise deal. And that, I do not know. There may be plans to accelerate FIOS build out, or they may just be trying to get all their ducks in a row in advance, or a combination of both.
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Bring back chicken and potato chips - Vote Perot! | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| quote:
I can only speak from what has been documented here with other FIOS customers, and so far, we have seen FIOS installs span the income brackets. However, since FIOS is in its infancy, if Verizon wanted to cherry pick affluent areas, one would assume that now would be the time to do it.
If I were a very PR conscious telco, even if I were going to cherry pick affluent and dense areas (which makes the most economic and investor pleasing sense), I'd damn well do my best to obfuscate this by picking a number of lower-middle class neighborhoods for deployment to offset this, so if someone did a statistical evaluation, I'd have ammo.
Luckily for Verizon, FCC statistics are largely bunk. They don't even know who really has DSL at this point. | |
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Vig
Thread-safe since 1997
Premium
join:2004-03-23
San Diego, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides And this is exactly the point. Just because they seem to be wiring everyone now doesn't mean they will in the future. In fact, if they get a franchise agreement that doesn't force them to service an unprofitable region, then they're pretty much required to ignore that area to avoid shareholder complaints.
Maybe they aren't ignoring less profitable areas now because that might make them look bad right when they need to look good to get the deal they want. As soon as said deal is in hand, it would not be surprising at all for their "wire them all" fervor to die out rather abruptly.
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Visit the land of the never-setting sun | |
| | | | | | | | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| said by DaveNJ :So in 2 years i can expect fios ? Who knows...I am with you buddy...I am in a Verizon serviced area and they have been putting fiber trunks in the ground like nobody's business, but the closest city to me that has FIOS is Fort Wayne, IN which is a good 90 miles from me.
As for time line, there is a lot of area to cover, and again, I was basing on rumors within the industry. Given the fact that customers who get FIOS usually have their land lines cut over to fiber as well, it really is looking like Verizon is taking the direction to decommission their copper operations. This, of course, will probably start with larger cities and then start to span out. Considering I live in a town of about 300 people, I don't expect to see FIOS any time in the near future.
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Bring back chicken and potato chips - Vote Perot! | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Patriot Media
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides said by djrobx : quote:
If Verizon wants to provide FIOS in my town, then it does it for ALL citizens, not just the 'rich people'.
I have seen no real evidence that Verizon is targeting rich people. In Los Angeles we have "rich areas" such as Ranchos Palos Verdes and Rolling Hills Estates. They are Verizon territory. If Verizon was targeting rich people only, those folks would have been the first to see FIOS. But there's no FIOS there. And heck, it would actually make sense for them to roll out FIOS there since most customers in those areas can't even get DSL. Meanwhile areas like Ontario and Victorville are getting lit for FIOS. They're certainly not "rich" communities. The problem is that verizon wants special treatment, and just wants to bully towns around. Either wire the whole town, or none at all. Cablecos have to, so verizon should have to as well. Our former cableco RCN tried to do this, and were legislated out of the state. I think there should also be a builtout performace agreement once verizon is allow in, under a "agreement" from the town. Our cableco had only 2 yrs to rebuild there entire network. I think that is fair for Verizon to have to do in any town. | |
| | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Propoganda.. by both sides And why should they be required to wire the whole town right away? Shouldnt we extend this a little further and say they have to wire their entire covered area right away or none at all? Or maybe we can say they have to wire the entire nation, or none at all? What makes it OK for them to wire one state now and not another until next year? Explain to me how this is different then any other company rolling out or even testing a product in one part of the country, state, city, or town. Is it because YOU want it and they are not meeting YOUR timeline?
If they want to go down your street and wire every house but yours, that is their business. What is it that all of a sudden gives you a RIGHT to fiber just because they started rolling it out in your neighborhood? If they want to stop their fiber deployment right now and never wire another house or business, that is their choice to make. They are a publicly held company so that decision is not yours and certainly not some politicians to make based on what they think they should suck out of Verizon.
Sure it would be nice if they could wire every house in their territory in a couple months. But that is not realistic and we would still have the little cry babies here asking why did they start in NY instead of Nebraska? So they pick and choose the most profitable places now and then come back to the places that give little return when the cost of wiring them is lower. So what, good business sense. In the end they will probably, through intervention of the government, be forced to wire the places that don't make them any money. But it may be several years for that to take place. | |
| | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | The whole town is already wired for telephone service. Upgrading it is a slow eventuality. Where I used to live there was neither cable tv or cable internet and Charter or the local gov't didn't care. There was DSL and telephone service though. | |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY | I guess you didn't read the OP post. TW had a franchise agreement and still picked the side of town they wanted!
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support the Hunley | |
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letitbeknown
| Here once and for all... Neither cablevision or verizon are offering anything particularly good for the video market.. they both suck.
Satellite is the way to go until these two find a way to acutally CHARGE LESS, offer more. And.. screw the local towns, they get "balls" under most circumstances as far as franchise fees are concerned.
Lets not forget the adage: subscriber be wary.
In the Verizon corner, you've got FORCED bundle overpriced POTS phone service.
In the Cablevision corner, you've got micromanaged and throttle/capped service and restrictive use.
So, for most of us, its picking the one you can temporarily stand without going broke, exploding, or smelling like the latest sewer rat.
And if that person got something for FREE, GOOD, your all just jealous it wasn't you. They're not exactly going broke offering the consumer freebies to subscribe, they know they got you dopes. | |
| rileyjam514
There You Go Again...
join:2005-06-26
Kearny, NJ | hahaha I just got the title reference... lol.
Phoney baloney vs. Phoney Baloney..
Yeah it wasn't that good of a joke but thanks for trying! | |
| 
TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ | Just for giggles... How many correspondents on this site do you think get paid by the word or the piece to post or respond?
I know I have my suspicions. | |
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MichiganTelephone
@85.195.x.x
| Re: Just for giggles... > How many correspondents on this site do you think
> get paid by the word or the piece to post or respond?
> I know I have my suspicions.
I do too. I know that the big phone companies employ the services of public relations firms that specialize in molding public opinion (and, occasionally, employing a campaign of dirty tricks against opponents). I'm 99% sure that those companies would take the time to monitor influential forums such as this, and post responses favorable to their clients' point of view.
You can often tell them by the fact that they employ insults and character defamation as their tools of the trade. When you see someone trying to put down another poster, or going out of their way to question their intelligence, etc. rather than speaking directly to the issues, that is the time to be suspicious (not that regular readers are never insulting, but it is one clue).
Michigan Telephone, VoIP and Broadband blog - not just for Michigan readers! | |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| Ahh, I run into them all the time. In order to organize my thoughts though, I've made a list of the proper responses (from their 'talking points' sheets'). Note: You can replace the word Verizon with pretty much any megacorp, they more or less share the same scripts..
Verizon and QOS Trafficking : It's their network, they can do what they want
Verizon and Heavy Downloaders : The users are thieves
Verizon and Using what you paid: If you don't like it, start your own network
Verizon and Franchising : Everyone will save money, really!
Verizon and Muni Broadband : Taxpayer money is being used to pay for it
Verizon and Monitoring : You have no right to expect privacy
Verizon and Monopoly : Satellite is available everywhere
Verizon and Broadband Commodity: you have no right to broadband
Verizon and Censorship : You have no right of free speech on the internet
Verizon and Port Blocking : It's to protect the clueless user
Verizon and Throttling : Encryption is illegal and violates the TOS
Verizon and Consumer Rights : Verizon is a business, it has a right to make money
Verizon and PA and 3.6 Billion : Dead Silence (Ignore the issue)
Verizon and Competition : You are a socialist
Verizon and Legislation : You are a troll
Verizon and Penalties : You are a communist
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Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it. | |
| atowncrazy
join:2001-11-17
Carrollton, TX
| the real issue The root of the issue here is that the Cable Companys want to provide phone service . And that the RBOC's want to provide TV service.
If the Fed/State/Local govts want to make it a fair playing field. VOIP will have to have the same stipulations as POTS and IP TV will have to have the same stipulations as CATV.
Im sure that the educated members of this forum can plainly see the argument from both sides. Each has there points to make but the Govt decision makers must do something to allow us to keep up with the rest of the world. And allow the consumers of the US to have a choice for the services that we require. Since we are now a country of services and thinkers. | |
| | Cod
join:2000-07-05
Greensboro, NC
edit:
February 22nd, @01:22PM
| Re: the real issue said by atowncrazy :The root of the issue here is that the Cable Companys want to provide phone service . And that the RBOC's want to provide TV service. If the Fed/State/Local govts want to make it a fair playing field. VOIP will have to have the same stipulations as POTS and IP TV will have to have the same stipulations as CATV. Im sure that the educated members of this forum can plainly see the argument from both sides. Each has there points to make but the Govt decision makers must do something to allow us to keep up with the rest of the world. And allow the consumers of the US to have a choice for the services that we require. Since we are now a country of services and thinkers. Well said. The problem is Telco's are heavily regulated by the government, cable is not. Cable for the most part is already offering digital/VOIP without 'franchise' fees or being regulated for that particular service.
I agree, level the playing field and let them duke it out by seeing who offers the best service at the best price. The bottom line is that us, the consumer, will win by having more choices and more competition & hopefully lower bills from this competition. | |
| | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | Re: the real issue For most of it's existence DSL was heavily regulated while cable internet had nothing as far as regulation. For some reason a lot of posters here and a lot of people in the gov't are suprised that DSL lagged cable in availability. | |
| | | | | | | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | Re: the real issue Why install a remote when you'd have to end up sharing the customers with no or little profit? Cable had guaranteed customers with little oversite from the PUC. | |
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richardpor
Fur it up
join:2003-04-19
Portland, OR
| a mix most foul This is a fine example of what hapenst when big government regulations mixes with nearsighted big cooperate bureaucracy. Freedomworks is a free market think tank that is fighting for low taxes and smaller government. I find it ironic, no moronic, for a cable company to invite government inference in the free market, and the added cost if doing business because of franchising agreements jut to protect market share.
This back and fourth attack between cable and the telecoms is why I believe we need the complete deregulation of both telecommunications and cable networks. I can think no place to start with a serious needed downsizing of the FCC. There is only one need for the FCC and is the diving up radio spectrum. Government should have no say what data, video or voice traffic services that are offered on private telecom, cable, and, internet networks. Yes I am for the complete telecommunication deregulations.
Also the practice of franchising by locale governments needs to be discontinued. Franchising is nothing more than legalized extortions and the truest sense of a monopoly. Cable and phones monopolies would be rare to not existent if it were not for big government regulations that empower them. | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
edit:
March 1st, @06:55PM
| Re: a mix most foul quote:
This back and fourth attack between cable and the telecoms is why I believe we need the complete deregulation of both telecommunications and cable networks.
What? That makes absolutely no sense. The government as it stands has been purchased, and has removed nearly all regulation from the market. The end result of such unbalanced deregulatory pushes is always corruption (see Enron, CA) or stagnation. quote:
Cable and phones monopolies would be rare to not existent if it were not for big government regulations that empower them.
That is the most ridiculous spin I've ever read I think....left utterly unchecked they'd be 600% worse - to think otherwise is pure fantasy. | |
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Phoney Bologna!
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