  latez
join:2002-01-07 Brooklyn, NY clubs:
| DOJ Bullying? Well atleast the ISP's didnt shove their tale between their legs and submit once again. Perhaps the thought of AG Gonzales shoving it to them without the lube in the future frightened them off. -- The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity the rest is overhead for the operating system. Nicholas Ambrose | |
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 |  GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11 Duluth, GA
| Re: DOJ Bullying? Using child pornography as the excuse for attempting to mandate this kind of requirement is pure BS. They have alterior motives, but no one seems brave enough to confront them on it publicly.
Besides, trying to store millions of subscribers data for a year, let alone two, would be astronomical in costs. Heck, most can't support a robust NNTP server let alone capture and retain for periods of 6-8 times longer than the most premiere new service already afoot.
I think the DOJ needs to take a basic computing class, because they obviously are asking ISPs to turn straw into gold. | |
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 |  |   AB Premium join:2006-04-04 Leesburg, VA
| Re: DOJ Bullying? said by GhostDoggy :Using child pornography as the excuse for attempting to mandate this kind of requirement is pure BS. They have alterior motives, but no one seems brave enough to confront them on it publicly. You got that right! Show 'em kiddie porn pictures to get the law passed, then those investigations go out the window because they're too busy snooping into the business of ordinary people. This is what is commonly referred to as a "dog & pony show". Why? Because 100-150 years ago, at the carnival, pickpockets would circulate through the crowds while people's attention was diverted watching that cute doggie riding the pony. The ONLY purpose of the show was to facilitate the crime! -- Why, yes! Certifiably so. Why do you ask? | |
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 |  |  |  jimbo2150
join:2004-05-10 Youngstown, OH
·Dreamhost
·Armstrong Zoom In..
| Re: DOJ Bullying? said by AB :Show 'em kiddie porn pictures to get the law passed... Isn't it illegal to even possess any of this material???
Isn't it great, all the criminal activities the government can get away with these days? -- - "Techie" Jim | |
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 |  |  |  |   AB Premium join:2006-04-04 Leesburg, VA
| Re: DOJ Bullying? said by jimbo2150 :Isn't it illegal to even possess any of this material??? Well you know, as a matter of fact it is! Arrest the lot of 'em, now! And start a Congressional Investigation, immediately!!  -- Why, yes! Certifiably so. Why do you ask? | |
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 |  |   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 Albany, NY
| The only reason for bringing child pornography into the mix is to give an attack point if someone opposes this. If someone says no then they will be painted as "pro-child pornography." (Alternatively, someone might say yes just to keep from being seen as "pro-child pornography.")
In reality, this is probably like the NSA phone records scandal. An effort to create a huge repository of information to help catch "bad guys" which will just generate a lot of false leads, invade privacy even more, and wind up being abused and/or expanded in scope to catch other "bad guys" in an effort to prove that the program was a success. -- -Jason Levine My Gallery | Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | URateit.com | |
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 |  |  |  GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11 Duluth, GA
| Re: DOJ Bullying? Makes no difference. In a public forum I would easily challenge the ability to have such a scheme implemented and then easily compromise it. A handful of $20 USB thumb-style NICs makes it rather easy to change MACs that could be used with someone else's wireless network.
And if that were not enough, you could just continue to use one MAC/NIC and wardrive to do whatever malicious activity you wanted in the first place. Child pornography is a weak excuse because a lot of people do not have children.
Its a joke to sugest that CP is above all other things in concern by the Bush administration. And then they are trying to get ISP's to foot what will be a very large bill that most will not be able to afford.
And this isn't to stop Internet crimes like DDOS, pirating media, or even terrorism. DOJ doesn't even see that on their substantial-threat radar, but the other arm of the government thinks all terrorists use ONLY phones to communicate with. | |
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 |  |  |  |   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 Albany, NY
| Re: DOJ Bullying? I hope you didn't think I was supporting this measure. I was merely pointing out that the specter of Child Pornography was only raised to force ISPs (and politicians) into compliance with what the DOJ wanted. Child Pornography is disgusting and should be stopped, but a program like the one the DOJ is suggesting would be 1) prohibitively expensive, 2) highly intrusive to the privacy of the innocent, and 3) extremely likely to be abused (either by expanding the scope of the program beyond Child Pornography to "score a victory" for the program or by using the accumulated data to find some dirt on someone.) -- -Jason Levine My Gallery | Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | URateit.com | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   AB Premium join:2006-04-04 Leesburg, VA
| Re: DOJ Bullying? said by Jason Levine :I hope you didn't think I was supporting this measure. I was merely pointing out that the specter of Child Pornography was only raised to force ISPs (and politicians) into compliance with what the DOJ wanted. Child Pornography is disgusting and should be stopped, but a program like the one the DOJ is suggesting would be 1) prohibitively expensive, 2) highly intrusive to the privacy of the innocent, and 3) extremely likely to be abused (either by expanding the scope of the program beyond Child Pornography to "score a victory" for the program or by using the accumulated data to find some dirt on someone.) Amen, brother! Well said! -- Why, yes! Certifiably so. Why do you ask? | |
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 |  |   Obliteration Premium join:2005-09-18 Somewhere
| said by GhostDoggy :Using child pornography as the excuse for attempting to mandate this kind of requirement is pure BS. They have alterior motives, but no one seems brave enough to confront them on it publicly. Besides, trying to store millions of subscribers data for a year, let alone two, would be astronomical in costs. Heck, most can't support a robust NNTP server let alone capture and retain for periods of 6-8 times longer than the most premiere new service already afoot. I think the DOJ needs to take a basic computing class, because they obviously are asking ISPs to turn straw into gold. Agreed. Child sex offenders have existed many centuries ago to barely decide that the Internet will be a tremendous tool for helping them solve the cases a lot faster is BS when in reality it seems all they want to do is spy on people and invade their privacy. | |
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 |  |   N10Cities SILENCE I Keel You
join:2002-05-07 Lavaca, AR clubs:
·World Lynx
·Cox HSI
| said by GhostDoggy :Using child pornography as the excuse for attempting to mandate this kind of requirement is pure BS. They have alterior motives, but no one seems brave enough to confront them on it publicly. Besides, trying to store millions of subscribers data for a year, let alone two, would be astronomical in costs. Heck, most can't support a robust NNTP server let alone capture and retain for periods of 6-8 times longer than the most premiere new service already afoot. I think the DOJ needs to take a basic computing class, because they obviously are asking ISPs to turn straw into gold. Hmmmm.....I'll bet companies like EMC and others that specialize in NAS storage solutions WOULD LOVE to see this come to pass....because their business would grow by leaps and bounds! Sarbanes-Oxley, HIPPA, etc already are a big boost...nothing really wrong with that...just an observation... | |
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 |  |  |   Geminimind Premium join:2003-12-20 Sacramento, CA | Re: DOJ Bullying? That's right and were paying them to snoop into our lives through federal taxes. They just want to be high tech peeping toms like we are some sort of reality tv show. | |
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 |  |  |  |  MADcyborge
join:2002-05-31 Salt Lake City, UT
| Re: DOJ Bullying? in the name of terrorism (durka-durka-jihad) we are dealt yet more harm from terrorists, we ar having our privacy stripped away. In the name of combating kiddy porn or terrorists (both are scum) we as a whole have to think will I get raided if I search for ---? I want to be able to type in on google how to setup a moonshine still, or search for an internet pharmacy selling cheap viagra or how to make a potato gun with out a team of FBI swat commandos holding a gun to my temple. This is America, we need to protet it but we need COMMON SENSE here. Whos with me? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   Geminimind Premium join:2003-12-20 Sacramento, CA | Re: DOJ Bullying? that sounds about right to me. | |
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 |  |  |   nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| said by N10Cities :Hmmmm.....I'll bet companies like EMC and others that specialize in NAS storage solutions WOULD LOVE to see this come to pass....because their business would grow by leaps and bounds! Sarbanes-Oxley, HIPPA, etc already are a big boost...nothing really wrong with that...just an observation... Actaully, no, disk makers won't really benefit. That's not the type of data you keep on disk. Companies, like StorageTeK and ADIC, that make large tape libraries and companies, like Iron Mountain, that store tapes would benefit most.
-tom -- "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -Louis D Brandeis | |
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 |  |  |  |   sporkme drop the crantini and move it, sister Premium,MVM join:2000-07-01 Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| Re: DOJ Bullying? said by nixen :said by N10Cities :Hmmmm.....I'll bet companies like EMC and others that specialize in NAS storage solutions WOULD LOVE to see this come to pass....because their business would grow by leaps and bounds! Sarbanes-Oxley, HIPPA, etc already are a big boost...nothing really wrong with that...just an observation... Actaully, no, disk makers won't really benefit. That's not the type of data you keep on disk. Companies, like StorageTeK and ADIC, that make large tape libraries and companies, like Iron Mountain, that store tapes would benefit most. What about all those folks pushing SATA as "near-line" storage? Who would you say is actually making inroads with that? I mean with a 3Ware controller and 500GB SATA drives you can easily get 5TB in a 3U case... -- Day dreaming days in a daydream nation | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: DOJ Bullying? said by sporkme :said by nixen :said by N10Cities :Hmmmm.....I'll bet companies like EMC and others that specialize in NAS storage solutions WOULD LOVE to see this come to pass....because their business would grow by leaps and bounds! Sarbanes-Oxley, HIPPA, etc already are a big boost...nothing really wrong with that...just an observation... Actaully, no, disk makers won't really benefit. That's not the type of data you keep on disk. Companies, like StorageTeK and ADIC, that make large tape libraries and companies, like Iron Mountain, that store tapes would benefit most. What about all those folks pushing SATA as "near-line" storage? Who would you say is actually making inroads with that? I mean with a 3Ware controller and 500GB SATA drives you can easily get 5TB in a 3U case... But why would you want to?
With tape, you do your daily vault, spit out the tape when it's and put it on a shelf until the retention policy has expired. Depending on your storage policies, a robot potentially never becomes full. You just keep rotating full tapes out and floating new ones in.
With a disk-based solution, you keep those disks spinning pretty much until they die. All those constantly spinning disks require a constant power pull. This also necessitates heat dissipation. Worse: what do you do when you've filled up those disks? You've got to replace them - either by incrementally replacing them or fully replacing the storage array.
Disk is great for transactional storage and even nearline storage. However, for "compliance" stuff, tape is the way to go.
-tom -- "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -Louis D Brandeis | |
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 |   kangabil Do It Now, Do It Right Premium join:2005-05-15 Australia
| I haven't seen the obvious answer to the probablem if THEY really wanted it to happen.
Use an off-shore ISP with multiple gateways and random server links.
Hell, I'd make millions just looking after all of you who didn't want the guvvermint proctologists looking up what they shouldn't.  -- Who was that masked man? | |
|
  Annoyedathis
@charter.com
| This is annoying.... I hate to bring reality to the table, but here it is... using child porn as a big reason to track everyone's activities online is just plain BS. How many people out there in the world actually LOOK for this crap? I think the media is overhyping it.
And exactly how is tracking it going to stop the activity. So... you find out that someone has looked at child porn almost 2 years ago. OK... now what? Did that person move in that time frame? Was it the person on the internet account, or someone else in their house? Can you prove that? Is the person using a wireless router like most people do? If so, and they are using no security at all, or WEP, can you be absolutely sure that their router wasn't compromised? True, the internet account holder is responsible for what happens over their account, but... if this pathetic attempt at big brother is serious about actually STOPPING child porn, since it's such a big part of our new world society, tell me how this can PREVENT the action on the part of the person doing it?
Obviously making examples in the media of these disgusting sickos isn't having any effect. Apparently child porn is just going rampant!
Please. | |
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  Tomek Premium join:2002-01-30 Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
·Verizon VoiceWing
| Easy Solution That kind of thinking will cause lots of problems in future. Maybe cars manufacturers should install black boxes in cars to monitor their driving and sent that info to PD so they print you tickets for all little violations. People should have implanted RFID so we can tell where everybody was a time, would help solve murder cases. -- Semper Fi | |
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 |   N3OGH Bear patrol must be working like a charm Premium join:2003-11-11 Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Easy Solution said by Tomek :That kind of thinking will cause lots of problems in future. Maybe cars manufacturers should install black boxes in cars to monitor their driving and sent that info to PD so they print you tickets for all little violations. People should have implanted RFID so we can tell where everybody was a time, would help solve murder cases. Most GM cars manufactured in the past 7 years have a "black box" on them. It records such things as braking action, speed at time of impact, throttle position, engine speed, and air bag deployment. The box is activated by an accelerometer. In the event of a serious crash, the police can download the information and use it in the investigation.
»www.tarorigin.com/art/Dgilman/
Welcome to the digital world, big brother's riding with you.... | |
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 |  |   Tomek Premium join:2002-01-30 Brooklyn, NY | Re: Easy Solution Now imagine having a small printer in your car. Everytime you go above 65mph it prints you a out a nice ticket. -- Semper Fi | |
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 |  |  |   N3OGH Bear patrol must be working like a charm Premium join:2003-11-11 Philly burbs | Re: Easy Solution I'd be broke  | |
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 |  |  |  |   Tomek Premium join:2002-01-30 Brooklyn, NY | Re: Easy Solution Gotham Dream Cars in NYC, do that stuff, the can remotely disable your car if it's in violation of rules (ie speeding, etc) -- Semper Fi | |
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 |  |  |  |   RARPSL
join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY
| said by N10Cities :said by Tomek :Now imagine having a small printer in your car. Everytime you go above 65mph it prints you a out a nice ticket. Some rental car companies out there use GPS receivers in their rental vehicles to track the speed you are driving their vehicles and charge you a fine if you go over a certain speed. I remember an article about that and the uproar it caused awhile back...but we are getting off-topic a bit... There was also reports of using E-ZPass (electronic tool collection) data to issue speeding tickets. The idea is that when you go through two toll plazas on the highway, they'd compare the times recorded at the two plazas and then compute how fast you'd have to be going and then issue a ticket if you got to the 2nd plaza "too soon". | |
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 |  |  |  Shark_615
join:2006-01-17 Pickering, ON | So everytime you break the law you are punished? Whats wrong with that? | |
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 |  |  |  |   Tomek Premium join:2002-01-30 Brooklyn, NY | Re: Easy Solution You will change your opinion when you get a speeding ticket for doing 66 in 65mph zone. -- Semper Fi | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   N3OGH Bear patrol must be working like a charm Premium join:2003-11-11 Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Easy Solution Most jurisdictions don't allow for speeding citations for only 1 MPH over the limit.
I can't attest for laws in other states, But I do know the law in Pennsylvania.
You have to be at least 5 MPH over the limit to be stopped for speeding if tracked by radar (only the State Police can use radar in PA).
You have to be at least 10 MPH to be stopped when tracked using the Robic or Accutrack stopwatch.
The only way you can be stopped for exactly 1 MPH over the limit is of you are clocked or paced by an officer in a cruiser with a certified speedometer, but that's probably not going to happen.
Just about any judge is going to find a defendant not guilty for a citation written for 1 mile over the limit. I say just about every because I can't account for every judge in PA, but any cop that writes someone for going 1 MPH over the limit is going to look like a total ass hat in front of the local judge. | |
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 |  |  |  |   networkengineer
@dreamhost.com
from: guitarzan 
| Both these narrow minded people truly don't understand the issues, instead the subscribe to the 'God elected George Bush' model.
Lets say I got an abortion. It's legal, today, to get an abortion anywhere. But what happens when the law changes? Abortion is illegal next year. All of a sudden, they have the ability to see who got an abortion in the last 3 years. Now, I'm charged with murder, because the definition of a 'criminal' has just changed.
What if I bought a ReplayTV. Those were legal in 2001. However, they violated the DMCA. All of a sudden, the police can get a record of everyone who owns one. Now I could be charged under the DMCA unless I turned it in.
What if I were jewish? And all of a sudden, christianity was the official 'state' religion. Don't think it can't happen, there are many many republican-cons who desperately want it to happen. Now, the police have a record of whose jewish, and unless I wear the star of david on my coat, I'll be arrested?
All 3 of these things are the result of a government having too much power. The ONLY time the government can ever spy on someone is with a warrant. What the current government wants, is the ability to run fishing expeditions, which is a complete violation of the 4th amendment. The NSA is already violating the 4th amendment, no matter what sieg bush says.
The FACT that people are aware that someone is watching them, results in the loss of freedom. Unlike the fascist supporters of Heil Bush, I lived under a totalitarian domain, and I know what it's like to be watched. Luckily, we executed the pig back in 89, along with all his Securitate pigs. For those who support the government watching everything you do, know this. Should I rise to power, and I very well may someday, ask yourself if you want ME to know exactly who posted pro Bush comments? And should that day come, and again, it very well may, it will be YOU who is arrested and executed. For you see, you are laying the groundwork for a revolution that will result in your own death. It happened in China with the Great Leap Forward. It happened in Vietnam, It happened in Laos. Don't think it can't happen here. Know that you have planted the seeds for your own execution, because you are too short sighted to see the problem of too much power in the hands of the few. | |
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 |  |  |   rit56
join:2000-12-01 New York, NY | haha | |
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 |   nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| said by Tomek :That kind of thinking will cause lots of problems in future. Maybe cars manufacturers should install black boxes in cars to monitor their driving and sent that info to PD so they print you tickets for all little violations. Pretty much all new cars shipped in the use for the last 7 years have a telemetry box in them. They are continuously recording information to a memory ring that holds about 5-10 seconds worth of data (enough to help in accident investigations).
said by Tomek :People should have implanted RFID so we can tell where everybody was a time, would help solve murder cases. They already have implantable chips. They already use non-implanted chips for similar purposes.
-tom -- "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -Louis D Brandeis | |
|
  insomniac84
join:2002-01-03 Schererville, IN
| IP Logs should be saved. It's stupid if some law enforcement officer tracks down the IP address of a criminal and gets a warrant for identifying information and then upon contacting the ISP being told that the logs are lost every month so there is no way to identify the criminal. These logs should be retained for a couple of years for investigation purposes. Now tracking the sites people visit and handing that data over to the government is unacceptable. That's just as bad as the phone spying. The government should not know what everyone does all day on the internet and they shouldn't know who we call and our exact gps coordinates either. | |
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 |  See 8 replies to this post |
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 JSRoman Premium join:2005-03-10 Callahan, FL
| Cost was a big issue. My understanding of this was that companies had a big problem with this due to cost. They wanted to know who was going to pay for all this retention of records. DOJ pretty much passed it on as a cost of doing business, kind of the good of society thing. All I know if major ISPs agree to do this then my usggestion is to buy stocks of network storage companies that might get a piece of the storgae pie. -- President Hillary Clinton! Are you scared yet?
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 |  scooper
join:2000-07-11 Youngsville, NC | Re: Cost was a big issue. The answer to the government should be - " we are not paying to keep that amount of data. YOu want it - YOU provide the storage - and I mean QUICK (monthly downloads from the begining)" .
Otherwise - I see "lots of accidents" happening... | |
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 |  |  russotto
join:2000-10-05 Collegeville, PA | Re: Cost was a big issue. The government has no problem keeping all the data. If they can hold on to every CDR from Verizon, AT&T, et al, they can certainly hold on to an orders-of-magnitude smaller number of IP address assignments. | |
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 JJV Premium join:2001-04-25 Seattle, WA clubs: | Same as wiretaping This is the same as bugging our phones. We shouldn't be logged or recorded. | |
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 |   Kilroy Premium,MVM join:2002-11-21 Sterling Heights, MI
| Re: Same as wiretaping said by JJV :This is the same as bugging our phones. We shouldn't be logged or recorded. I agree and the next time you have the opportunity to vote get rid of these fools who use the U.S. Constitution as toilet paper. I know I will. -- Never argue with an idiot, they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. | |
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 |  |   LiamJunket Premium join:2002-03-03 Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: Same as wiretaping said by Kilroy :said by JJV :This is the same as bugging our phones. We shouldn't be logged or recorded. I agree and the next time you have the opportunity to vote get rid of these fools who use the U.S. Constitution as toilet paper. I know I will. And who will you vote for that isn't Dem or Repub? Because both parties have in the past and will in the future approve laws to help law enforcement use modern means to catch both average criminals and terrorists. -- -- Join Red Room Forum BLOG tkjunkmail.blogspot.com My Web Page | |
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 |  |  |   Kilroy Premium,MVM join:2002-11-21 Sterling Heights, MI
| Re: Same as wiretaping said by LiamJunket :And who will you vote for that isn't Dem or Repub? I don't care what party they are for provided they aren't for goose stepping all over the rights of the American people. -- Never argue with an idiot, they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. | |
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 |  |  |   guitarzan Premium join:2004-05-04 Skytop, PA
·epix
| said by LiamJunket :said by Kilroy :said by JJV :This is the same as bugging our phones. We shouldn't be logged or recorded. I agree and the next time you have the opportunity to vote get rid of these fools who use the U.S. Constitution as toilet paper. I know I will. And who will you vote for that isn't Dem or Repub? Because both parties have in the past and will in the future approve laws to help law enforcement use modern means to catch both average criminals and terrorists. I agree with you assessment of both party's TK.
IMO the difference between both party's are minimal at best,non existent at worst.A democrat majority in either House or Senate will vote or ratify what ever Heil Der Bushler wants. -- Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm. | |
|
  biopaul
join:2001-03-01 Bryn Mawr, PA clubs:
| I can just imagine .... And what if a child porno site is hosted on a URL with a dynamic IP, say for a month, thereafter the same IP is allocated to someone hosting, say, "The Life and Times of Mary Poppins".
How is this going to logged?
I can just imagine law inforcement will go after everyone that browsed to the IP, irrespective what was actually the host site. | |
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 |   bentman78 Bentley
join:2004-04-16 Arlington, VA | Re: I can just imagine .... most govt. types don't think like that. It's either black and white for them... | |
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  RangerTX Premium join:2006-05-17 Los Angeles, CA | hope laws pass I hope the proposed bills that are going thru congress pass and force ips to collect data | |
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 |   SRFireside
join:2001-01-19 Houston, TX | Re: hope laws pass And your reasons for this are...?
It doesn't make much of a discussion thread when you don't discuss... unless you're trying to flamebait. | |
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 |  |   RangerTX Premium join:2006-05-17 Los Angeles, CA
| Re: hope laws pass said by SRFireside :And your reasons for this are...? It doesn't make much of a discussion thread when you don't discuss... unless you're trying to flamebait. our phone records held by phone company for many years, that goes for landline and for cell phones. What makes internet any different? | |
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 |  |  |  ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
1 edit | Re: hope laws pass said by RangerTX :our phone records held by phone company for many years, that goes for landline and for cell phones. What makes internet any different? There is a private, economic basis for the collection of phone numbers called in order to facilitate billing for tariffed telephone service. The minimal record keeping allowed and mandated for that purpose is reasonable to comply with auditing requirements of the tax authorities of both state and federal governments.
There is NO JUSTIFICATION for ISPs to keep records of Internet communications because Internet communications are not billed for by occurence, duration and distance like tariffed local and long distance telephone services. PERIOD!
If probable cause, not a fascist manifestation of wholesale distrust of the entire electorate, is established and sworn to, a warrant may be issued for contemporaneous surveillance of a subjects Internet communications. The system need not abrogate the individual and collective right of the citizenry to remain sacrosanct from abusive governmental authority.
The requirement to keep records as proposed by the government serves no purpose in a free society. | |
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 |  |  |  |   guitarzan Premium join:2004-05-04 Skytop, PA | Re: hope laws pass Ross, Amen to that Brother.I second that as well. | |
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 bamabrad
join:2006-01-27 Port Orange, FL | Trying to figure out... Should I be concerned with somebody looking to see where I've been surfing- I'm REALLY trying to figure out the problem here. | |
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 |  petecellar
join:2002-10-15 Philadelphia, PA | Re: Trying to figure out... Easy there, Snow White. Just because you don't care if people are looking in you sock drawer doesn't mean they should be able to. | |
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 |  |  bamabrad
join:2006-01-27 Port Orange, FL
| Re: Trying to figure out... Where should they(the ones supposedly protecting us) look and what should they do to catch the supposedly bad guys? If that is one of the methods that the bad guys are using to be bad to me or my family, it should be available to inspection-even if some of the 'innocents' might have pantyhose in their 'sock drawer. I'm really trying to be respectful of everyones rights, but if it saves one life,I really don't care if they see my underwear our yours-just make sure they are clean! | |
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 |  |  |   Frank is chilling Premium join:2000-11-03 somewhere | Re: Trying to figure out... you've obviously never read the book 1984. I suggest you read it. | |
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 |  |  |  Arthur96
join:2000-12-17 Salem, NH
| they are not looking to save any lives here as i would assume that most if not all child porn viewable to the general public at least.......ie no login to a private group site, is overseas somewhere and out of reach of US law.
No, kiddie porn is an excuse, they are not looking to save lives. what do they want? who knows for sure , Control? defiantly, revenue from a new generation of synthetically created criminals? possibly, but whatever it is the Current US gov wants, One thing for sure is that there is STILL some people left alive today from a past generation that have actually seen these types of things before come to fruition,
back in a time not so long ago when a small country set the entire world ablaze.
I for one will NOT be goose stepping along with "THIS United states government"
Q: How does a citizen of the US go about impeaching the US attorney general or in some way raise some complaint to have him removed from office ? because just the IDEA of what he wanted to do and i knowing full well that if the U.S. gov. foot the bill for this that the ISP's would have no moral problems at selling out their customers, Just cries out righteous indignation and a Huge kick in the ass to this administration from the American people.
A Government should fear its people, A people should not fear its government. | |
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  SilenceGold Premium join:2003-07-31 Benton, AR
1 edit | Their point is.. To prevent child pornography from being spread around the internet. To prevent that, they need to track down those internet users who spread those content. Without ISPs' cooperation, they can't do it.
It is sad that they are more concerned with child pornography than any other rampant Internet crimes such as phishing, stolen identifies, stolen laptops, piracy, DDOS, cracking/defacing and so on. They chose to use only the "child pornography" as an ammo to gain "logging capabilities" of all the Internet users (even innocent ones). I know that we should not compare the child pornography to any other crimes because it is impossible when you got an image of child looming in your head then when you try to compare that to what you are looking at which could be millions of $ being loss in other types of crimes.
They approached the ISPs wanting the logging capabilities to be started so they can start the steps of prevention only for child pornography while not mentioning any of the other crimes. They spread those examples of the child pornography images to hit into those executives' hearts. That's a kind of lowball push from the government system for privacy invasions.
The Government needs to look for alternative ways to reduce the child pornography crimes. | |
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  cwy1980 Premium join:2004-08-10 New London, CT clubs:
| I can understand some of your points about why we should... ...but then again there are so many better reasons about why we shouldn't let this idea become law.
Here are some quotes from some of the framers of our way of life in this country that must surely be rolling in their graves over all of this:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." -- Patrick Henry | |
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  gruggni Oxygen Gets You High
join:2003-07-28 Corpus Christi, TX
1 edit | value of privacy Privacy has nothing to do with hiding wrongs.
If this doesn't define privacy and answer the whys I don't know what will. Don't be stuck on stupid.
Bruce Schneier said it best in the following article: »www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2···_pr.html | |
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  Rogue Wolf Drank Your Milkshake- He Drank It Up
join:2003-08-12 Troy, NY
·RoadRunner Cable
| An example. Here's a theoretical situation:
Suppose there's a government employee- we'll call him Agent Smith- who is studying random surfing habits in order to find possible terrorist connections. He comes upon your records, and finds that three weeks ago you visited the site www.gardeniasforyourmom.com to send gardenias to your mother for Mother's Day. Agent Smith HATES gardenias and anyone who orders them, so he decides he's going to make a little example of you, flagging your files for further review.
Over the next few months Agent Smith secretly keeps track of your personal surfing habits, building up a casefile of "suspicious behavior" and "possible subversion"- only he's making subtle little edits, changing everyoneloveskittens.com to everyonelovesosama.com and placing links to kiddie-porn sites in your history. Pretty soon he's made you out to look like a terrorist-funding, child-ogling anti-American reprobate.
He submits your file to the Department of Justice, and alarms are raised. Certainly you're mere days away from committing harm to America! Federal agents pull over your car on the way to work and whisk you away to an "undetermined location", where you are held without access to legal counsel or contact with the outside world, until such time as the government decides you're no longer a threat.
Now replace "buying gardenias" with any potentially controversial political idea or personal belief. Think it can't happen? Things like this have been happening for as long as humankind has had governments.
The easier it is for government to know about you, the more likely it is that someone IN government will use that information for reasons other than what they say they will. -- Feudalism: It's your Count that votes! | |
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 |   SilenceGold Premium join:2003-07-31 Benton, AR
| Re: An example. Simple..a terrorist or anyone who has a hate for a neighbor can plant a trojan horse or even crack into their wireless network and do suspicious behaviors through the "innocent" neighbor's ISP account.
Because of the hatred of the neighbor, there will be a smile on this person as if this person sees through the window that several suit men comes out of that white van, with an antenna on top, to the neighbor's front door. | |
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  slipperyslope
@verizon.net
| medium is the message I simply can't understand why in this day and age when the internet is not even close to federally funded anymore should we allow our privacy to be invaded so 1984ish. 2001 was our 1984 catalyst point and we've never looked back!
you should fear your own government more than the terroists these days pushing a big oil, big business agenda! | |
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 sabretooth
join:2005-02-08 Chicago, IL
| like a mule following a carrot this is just dirty politics using child pornography in an effort to push their isp record-keeping agenda. it's clear the isp companies know full well what this would create and they want no part of it. as unfortunate as the onset of terrorist attacks were in recent years, it seems to have provided the ideal platform for the government to instigate practices that would never have been allowed to occur before. it doesn't take a genius to see that very little of these changes in laws and invasions of people's privacy have any practical applications to anything even remotely terrorist-related. then again, using naked pictures of kids wouldn't be the first time this administration has swayed the public opinion in favor of an agreeable cause, then quickly shifted focus to suit their own needs. | |
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