dslreports logo
site
   
spc
Related:
Crying Net-Neutrality Wolf
BellSouth & Youtube, now Cox & Craigslist
by Karl Bode 11:20AM Wednesday Jun 07 2006
Last week BellSouth users complained they couldn't access MySpace and YouTube, leading some to issue cries of network-neutrality violation. As it turns out, the problem was a routing issue between BellSouth and LLNW (LimeLight Networks) impacting customers in Florida and Tennessee, and was completely unintentional.

Though we've seen no complaints about this in our forums, some bloggers report that Cox users are complaining they can't reach Craigslist (see Silicon Valley Watcher, IP Democracy). From the former:
"[Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster] soon arrived and said the problem of access had been going on since late February. It had something to do with the security software that Cox isusing from a company called Authentium - Back on February 23rd Authentium acknowledged that their software is blocking Craigslist but it still hasn't fixed the problem, more than three months later."
Because Cox runs its own classified ads service, the assumption seems to be that Cox is intentionally disrupting user connection to Craigslist. Though certainly possible, a more likely explanation, as in the BellSouth case, is human error.

It would take a rare form of incompetence for incumbent execs to decide to block users from accessing content at the very apex of the net-neutrality debate in Congress. Similarly, crying wolf each time a network belches could hurt the case for net-neutrality by painting advocates as knee-jerk reactionaries.

Our users may not be complaining about the blockade because when it was unveiled last spring, many decided the security/privacy suite was not worth installing. Cox users unable to access Craigslist can apparently just uninstall the bundled Cox security software to resolve the issue.

view:
topics flat nest 

tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL

Conversely

Similarly, crying wolf each time a network belches could hurt the case for net-neutrality by painting advocates as knee-jerk reactionaries.

Or, it can point out precisely how non-neutral nets will operate, thus helping the push to retain neutrality.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39

1 edit

Re: Conversely

quote:
Or, it can point out precisely how non-neutral nets will operate
But they won't operate by blocking two states from YouTube outight, or via a shoddy piece of security software. Neither instance is an accurate representation of how the threat will emerge, because it's unlikely an incumbent could get away with outright blocking of legal content.

The threat emerges via subtly de-prioritized competitor packets. Tariffs are applied, and from there competing content prices are driven up.

tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL

Re: Conversely

Naturally, it is an exaggerated proportion, but the similarity is intact.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39

Re: Conversely

Unintentional and limited is not a smaller proportion of intentional and broad. These are not cases of network neutrality violations, they are someone accidentally screwing up!

tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL

Re: Conversely

You're missing the comparison. I'm not saying these are net neutrality violations, but rather the effect is--or could be--similar. The, "Oh, if a few packets get dropped, that isn't our problem. That website could upgrade to our AwesomeService Plus™ routing to gaurantee their traffic." is the comparison to which I was referring.
Shark_615

join:2006-01-17
Pickering, ON
No it isn't

What you are talking about is like saying that no internet connection and a reduced speed are the same thing when they clearly are not.

tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL

Re: Conversely

What happens when too many packets drop, "get lost", or are routed horribly?
dadarkside
Premium
join:2006-05-20
The Moon

1 recommendation

Re: Conversely

When Akimai experiences a hardware failure, all kinds of net content have the potential to go "missing".

Screwups are along the same line.

Cox offered a security app that had blacklisted craigslist.

Cox is still neutral regarding craigslist. The security app is not.

Many, many of the ads on Craigslist, really aren't family friendly. I don't blame the app.

This one's on the end user, as long as Cox advises their users that uninstalling restores connectivity.

anonpronman

@optonline.net
The people that said anything were normal users that didn't have the knowledge to test if they were actually blocked.

An news agency that picked that up with out talking to a consultant should deserve the backlash that is about to be unleashed against them.

MORONS!

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

1 edit

Wrong.

"Similarly, crying wolf each time a network belches could hurt the case for net-neutrality by painting advocates as knee-jerk reactionaries"
Completely wrong. People are going to fuss because there is no guarantee in anyway that a network problem is just a network problem and not really intentional.
If it was illegal for ISPs to block or throttle websites, people wouldn't jump to that conclusion so fast.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39

Not Wrong

BellSouth isn't going to target only Florida and Tennessee YouTube users.

Cox isn't going to filter Craigslist via an optional third-party security suite nobody likes.

Neither is going to outright block content while they're busy spending millions fighting net-neutrality laws. These execs are not stupid men. Myopic and greedy maybe, but not stupid.

They will wait until the legal debate is settled in their favor, then they will employ more subtle de-prioritization approaches.

Crying wolf to instances that clearly aren't intentional net-neutrality violations will only make it easier for lobbyists and PR firms to paint advocates as crackpots.

FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Re: Not Wrong

said by Karl Bode:

Crying wolf to instances that clearly aren't intentional net-neutrality violations will only make it easier for lobbyists and PR firms to paint advocates as crackpots.
You mean advocates like Silicon Valley Watcher & IP Democracy? I think there is no dearth of crackpot net neutrality advocates out there to be used as examples by telco lobbyists.
--
--
Join Red Room Forum
BLOG tkjunkmail.blogspot.com
My Web Page

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
Do you work for these companies, how do you know?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39

Re: Not Wrong

I have magic beans I bought from a pretty pink dragon.
dadarkside
Premium
join:2006-05-20
The Moon

Re: Not Wrong

said by Karl Bode:

I have magic beans I bought from a pretty pink dragon.
The dragon I bought mine from was red...

(oops, wrong thread!)
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Lack or communication and resolution.....

That's all it boils down to; communication and resolution.

Most ISP's will not even acknowledge a problem until a LOT of people complain about it. And then, maybe there is a problem. Many times, it is still blamed on the user's system (spyware, modem, router, etc.)

Also, in the case of Craiglist and Cox, a problem that has persisted since February, there seems to be no rush in fixing the problem. This issue, so far, works in Cox's favor. Why be in a rush to fix it at all?

Conspiracy theories exists because of the lack of communication and resolution shown in all aspects of society.

POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA

Re: Lack or communication and resolution.....

said by moonpuppy:

Also, in the case of Craiglist and Cox, a problem that has persisted since February, there seems to be no rush in fixing the problem. This issue, so far, works in Cox's favor. Why be in a rush to fix it at all?

I haven't had any issues accessing craigslist. But then again, I wasn't gullible enough to install Cox's shoddy software.
--
Choose Net Neutrality or Lose It
21st C TechnoBarons.
Why Care About Media?
ross7

join:2000-08-16

2 recommendations

An excellent argument as to why

major Telco and Cableco infrastructure owners should NOT be involved in businesses that provide content over the internet. They should stay out of the internet content business. There is way too much temptation, and opportunity, to interfere passively, or actively, with access to competing content providers.

ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Danbury, CT

Re: An excellent argument as to why

I could not agree more.
dadarkside
Premium
join:2006-05-20
The Moon

1 edit
You don't understand, content providers, like Akimai, peer directly with the ISP.

It's in their best interest to have that content at the very edge of the ISP's network.

Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL

1 edit

_

The author is simply making assumptions with no actual facts and his last statement saying that YouTube and Myspace was blocked to Bellsouth customer proved to be a network error.

Stop making ridiculous assumptions unless you have any proven facts, it must be nice to hype a story so that it seems that there is actually something going on here when it's not.

So now that you have high ping times, you believe they degraded your connection over net-neutrality, do you believe that the day was going to end on June 06, 2006?

Also the Cox issue seems to be the security software that was made by a company called Authentium which seems they included craigslist in a black list. If you do not run this software you will not be affected.

This just seems to me that Cox want's to become moral police if you *had* to install it, what does this have to do with net-neutrality?

BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

Net Neutrality on a Rampage

I think the thing most likely to hurt Net Neutrality efforts are the sheer amount of arm chair "experts" out there who really do not understand net neutrality at all. There was a thread in Cox HSI about a month back where a guy with a Vonage phone couldn't call a 800-number for Cox. A member of this site, an MVM no less, immediately raised the possibility that this was a net neutrality issue, exhibiting a frightening level of ignorance on an issue that doesn't need anymore chicken little's running around telling them that every time their internet connection hiccups, its a net neutrality issue. What this guy never stopped to think about, apparently, was that the call was making it over Cox's HFC, and the onto and off of their backbone fine, and on to Vonage's SIP server and subsequent media gateways, and the issue was a down level phone switch problem, probably between Vonage's CLEC and whoever Cox buys 800 access from, and in fact, it appears that Vonage or their CLEC was sending bogus ANI, causing the whole issue.
--
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."

hopeithelps

@comcast.net

hope this helps

well in reading this it has reminded me of a service call i had about 3 weeks ago.i got called out because out customer could not see there advertisment on the google site which he pays for.he could get to google and search threw google but could not see his on the sponsered links top portion of the google search results. the funny thing is, he seriously thought we were blocking it, but anyways i check all his security setting ,disable fire wall just so can see i am trying cause he was pretty upset. so then i finally get the guy to call google which he did not want to do. after all his neighbors could see the link just fine. well i get on the phone and talk to google rep which by the way was very nice, unlike some other call centers techsupport. he tells me google advertises by ip address. its actuallu kinda cool cause its like they have ip caller id. lets say i have a company and want to advertise to a certain state,county or such. well google know where the ips are originating from some how. well we had just gotten a new pool of ip addresses so when i gave the google rep the ip address he said it told him the ip address was , well i cant remember exact words but somthing that in the end ment wasnt sure where it was comming from. SO we swaped his modem and he then got an older ip address which are the ones we have had......example 24's, 69's, 68's are the starting of the ip's. but the new ones are 71's so it was unrecognizable to google.
not sure if its the same thing here but thought id share.
Necronomikro

join:2005-09-01

Re: hope this helps

NetGeo IP. It's useful - you can see what state people are from, usually. However, sometimes the information is out of date.

www.dnsstuff.com has a little netgeo IP tool.

GlennAllen
Sunny with highs in the 80s
Premium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA

Advocacy

Is there any "advocacy group" that isn't composed of at least some percentage of "knee-jerks"?

Hmmmm....

POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA

Re: Advocacy

said by GlennAllen:

Is there any "advocacy group" that isn't composed of at least some percentage of "knee-jerks"?

Hmmmm....
The biggest, most outstanding example an advocacy group was Thomas Jefferson and his like-minded band of friends who knee-jerked their way into creating a country free from the tyranny of assholes named George.
--
Choose Net Neutrality or Lose It
21st C TechnoBarons.
Why Care About Media?
Shark_615

join:2006-01-17
Pickering, ON

Re: Advocacy

dadarkside
Premium
join:2006-05-20
The Moon

1 edit
said by POB:

said by GlennAllen:

Is there any "advocacy group" that isn't composed of at least some percentage of "knee-jerks"?

Hmmmm....
The biggest, most outstanding example an advocacy group was Thomas Jefferson and his like-minded band of friends who knee-jerked their way into creating a country free from the tyranny of assholes named George.
Washington? Or Bush?

(just kidding, I know who ya meant!)
FreeInternet5

join:2006-06-07

Save the Internet

I personally believe that it is very important to protect the freedom of the internet. I urge everyone to call their congressional representatives (U.S. Capitol: (202) 224-3121) and ask them to support net neutrality. I found out about this from a video on YouTube(dot)com. Also, you may need to explain to the Congressional staffer what net neutrality is. Please don't delay. Do this as soon as possible. It will be a lot easier to stop this legislation than to let it pass and then try to get Congress to undo the legislation.

asdfghjklzx5
Premium
join:2004-05-03
kudos:1

This kind of crap happens all the time

On multiple occasions our website at work has been inaccessible from certain ISPs. It's happened three times over the last few years, and in every case it was an error or misconfiguration on the ISP's network. Incidentally, all three times it was a Cable ISP.
--
Have problems running your Windows box as a limited user?
Try this...»winsudo.toadlife.net

Ray Dickenson

@uslec.net

I'm the product manager, it's just a glitch

I'm in charge of Product Management at Authentium. We make the security suite that Cox provides to its subscribers.

In February, we started receiving support calls from users of our branded ESP security suite at ISPs like Cox Communications and Patriot Media. These users had problems accessing the Craigslist.org web site.
Our engineers investigated the issue and found a glitch in our firewall driver that made the Craigslist site very slow to load, or not load at all. (Technical details below)

We contacted Craigslist to learn why only the Craigslist web site was affected and also had our engineers fix the firewall driver. The fixed driver is in QA and will be part of a new release this summer. Our support team has been offering the beta firewall driver to customers who call in and are willing to try it. The support team also assists users uninstalling the software if necessary.

Authentium is dedicated to providing the best possible Internet experience for all users of our security suite, which appears under many brand names. We applaud the efforts of ISPs that go the extra mile to provide free security software to their subscribers and will continue our efforts to make the Internet experience safer and easier.

Technical details:
We found that the Craigslist.org web site sends a TCP packet with a zero-length window. A zero-length window indicates the server is experiencing congestion and cannot handle more data. Our firewall driver responds by sending data only one byte at a time, even after the server increases the TCP window size. This is the glitch we have fixed and are QA testing. Any changes to network drivers must be made carefully, tested thoroughly, and certified before general release

NeedANewISP

@sbcglobal.net

Does this qualify?

Okay, let's see if this one fits the criteria:

SBC DSL (now AT&T) doesn't "carry" content from www.espn360.com. Specifically, I can't watch World Cup soccer online. It would appear I'd have to switch to Verizon DSL to watch these games online (live) in Oakland. Just discovered this--by the time I switch providers, half the Cup will be over.

What do you think? Topical for "net neutrality" or just general BS?