FCC Acts on BPL PollutionWarns Manassas deployment it may be shut down ( old news - 12:03PM Saturday Jun 17 2006) tags: fcc · BPLFor some time now, hams have been complaining about a broadband over powerline deployment in Manassas, Virginia, that locals say has been poorly implemented and pollutes the local radio spectrum. Comtek, the company that deployed the technology, decided to take aggressive PR measures against the hams instead of resolving the problems. Comtek insisted the hams were engaged in a "campaign to turn back the clock on broadband in the United States," and, despite repeated evidence to the contrary, stated all interference concerns were resolved. The FCC apparently doesn't agree. David95037 writes in: "The FCC has written to the operator of the Manassas BPL System giving them 20 days to fix the pollution. In addition, the FCC has asked Manassas “the specific steps you will take to inform customers of a cessation of service in the event you are directed to cease operations, either in part or system-wide." More information is available here at the ARRL website.
Related:- Hams Want FCC To Actually Study BPL Before Praising It
- Hams Demand FCC BPL Test Data
- FCC Ignoring BPL Interference?
- The FCC's Split Personality
- FCC, Hams Spar Over Powerline Broadband
- Court Agrees with ARRL in FCC BPL Issue
- Broadband Over Powerline (BPL) Stumbles
- New Docs Show FCC Glossed Over BPL Flaws
|
 markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO | Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. Honestly, how many HAM ops can there be in Manassas, Virginia that can get the FCC to shut down a whole ISP..
Lets hope common sense hits the FCC in the head, maybe even send the ham ops takedown orders instead. lol | |
|  | zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Edmonton, AB
 ·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. I always thought they were still concerned about HAM radio in case of emergencies, and you need to use something else for communication.
Look at the communication problems that happened in New Orleans last year. I don't entirely understand how they work, but they are long range analog devices aren't they? They would seem to be a rather handy item to have in such a case.
If there were a big disaster, one would think the power would get knocked out, and the interference would stop, but I guess the powers one of the first things they try and put back on. | |
| | | David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA
·Be There
1 edit | Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by zod5000  :If there were a big disaster, one would think the power would get knocked out, and the interference would stop, but Q: If the power goes out in an area, BPL interference will go out as well, so Hams could then provide emergency services, so what is the problem?
A: Amateurs need to maintain equipment and practice needed skills before a disaster occurs. If the equipment is unusable during regular times, what is the motivation even to buy equipment? Another thing to consider is that emergency stations need to be able to communicate out to areas that do have power.
From the BPL FAQ;
»www.qrpis.org/~k3ng/bpl.html#21 | |
| | | | 
ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs:
 ·VOIPo
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by David95037 :said by zod5000 :If there were a big disaster, one would think the power would get knocked out, and the interference would stop, but Q: If the power goes out in an area, BPL interference will go out as well, so Hams could then provide emergency services, so what is the problem? A: Amateurs need to maintain equipment and practice needed skills before a disaster occurs. If the equipment is unusable during regular times, what is the motivation even to buy equipment? Another thing to consider is that emergency stations need to be able to communicate out to areas that do have power. From the BPL FAQ; » www.qrpis.org/~k3ng/bpl.html#21 And to add to that, suppose there is an emergency somewhere other than Manasas, but it is the Amateur Radio people in Manassas that they need to communicate with. Then there wuld be issues.
These people that cannot see the entire picture need to go educate themselves before before posting garbage.
--
FWD#: 223611 | |
| | | | | smcallah
join:2004-08-05
Home
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by ropeguru :And to add to that, suppose there is an emergency somewhere other than Manasas, but it is the Amateur Radio people in Manassas that they need to communicate with. Then there wuld be issues. The amateur radio operators in Manassas will certainly be able to save them!
Super Manassas Amateur Radio operators to the rescue!  | |
| | | | | | driscollw80
join:2005-08-15
Virginia Beach, VA | Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. Bottom line, stay in your spectum. What would happen if Ham screwed up BPL ? | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by driscollw80 :Bottom line, stay in your spectum. What would happen if Ham screwed up BPL ? Ironically, nothing. BPL is a FCC Part 15 device that has to accept any interference from any source. This would include CBs or someone's power drill pushing noise spikes back down the power line. BPL has no wireless spectrum to stay in - it's a wired network therefore it has no frequency allocations....just like cable and DSL which deliver broadband just fine without wrecking spectrum. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | What I am wondering is what behind the scenes thing happened to make the FCC finally move to at last enforce the rules on this issue.
--
The older I get the more I prefer the company of my dogs over that of man kind. | |
| | | | | | | | | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Re: Somebody in high places got pissed. Overwhelming complaints from everyone operating below 50 MHz, I'd bet. The process takes a long time sometimes.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange. | |
| | | | | | | | | GhostFreeman
join:2004-06-04
Rising Fawn, GA | Dig deep and i'm sure AT&T is involved, like that other market they managed to get shut down. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
2 edits | Re: Somebody in high places got pissed. said by GhostFreeman :Dig deep and i'm sure AT&T is involved, like that other market they managed to get shut down. Why would AT&T even care? This is residential Internet service. AT&T actually played around with BPL two or three years ago in California and pulled out due to business reasons.
Edit: AT&T also funded the Penn State BPL study from two years ago. This was the study that determined BPL could do 1 Gbps under "ideal" conditions. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
1 edit | said by GhostFreeman :Dig deep and i'm sure AT&T is involved, like that other market they managed to get shut down. That was just one of the things I was thinking about. except for the fact none of the big providers thing BPL is in anyway a viable threat to their business.
--
The older I get the more I prefer the company of my dogs over that of man kind. | |
| | | | | | | | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| said by rf_engineer :BPL has no wireless spectrum to stay in - it's a wired network therefore it has no frequency allocations....just like cable and DSL which deliver broadband just fine without wrecking spectrum. Well, that's close but not quite true. Licensed services in a portion of spectrum have primary allocations or secondary allocations, but they are rarely exclusive (some of the radio astronomy bands probably being the only ones). Licensed-exempt users under Part 15 are the bottom of the totem pole, but they are explicitly permitted under Part 15 to radiate RF power in certain bands as an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator. This can even lead to some degree of interference, so long as such interference does not lead to the level of "harmful" (that's why those electric drills can remain on the market), and in addition, the license-exempt user must accept harmful interference from any source.
I know ARRL lawyers disagree with this portion of the law, and argue in nearly all of their filings with the FCC that the Commission has no authority to authorize Part 15 operation in the first place. But they've been trying for over 25 years to win that point, and haven't done so yet (I suppose that's why the position the ARRL takes in press releases to the public and their membership is a much more reasonable one than this official position they take in the FCC filings. Or maybe they have no idea what their lawyers are doing).
BTW, UTP telephone wring is not perfectly balanced, and radiates some as well. With the rollout of VDSL expecially, there was concern about harmful interference in the HF band. Unlike much of the BPL community, however, the DSL community took up the issue head-on, and did technical analyses and field measurements that ulimately resulted in the ham bands being notched out of the VDSL spectrum. Leaky coax cable systems are also frequently an issue.
Bottom line is that it's too bad that these idiot BPL operators in Virginia decided to try to use PR rather than engineering to deal with the issue, and ended up giving all BPL a bad name. It's too bad that the BPL technology supplier used for most of the BPL trials in the U.S. also didn't care about interference. But if you look at Cincinnati, where Current Technologies has been operating for quite some time, hams are OK, airplanes aren't falling out of the sky, and emergency communications services work just fine. So apparently there is a technical solution to these issues, if the willingness to implement it is there, along with the required engineering expertice. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by PDXPLT :said by rf_engineer :BPL has no wireless spectrum to stay in - it's a wired network therefore it has no frequency allocations....just like cable and DSL which deliver broadband just fine without wrecking spectrum. Well, that's close but not quite true. Licensed services in a portion of spectrum have primary allocations or secondary allocations, but they are rarely exclusive (some of the radio astronomy bands probably being the only ones). Licensed-exempt users under Part 15 are the bottom of the totem pole, but they are explicitly permitted under Part 15 to radiate RF power in certain bands as an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator. This can even lead to some degree of interference, so long as such interference does not lead to the level of "harmful" (that's why those electric drills can remain on the market), and in addition, the license-exempt user must accept harmful interference from any source. What you're saying is true, but it doesn't have any bearing on my original statement. BPL has no wireless frequency allocations. Maybe this is just a discussion of semantics, but being allowed to intentionally or unintentionally emit radiation does not constitute a frequency allocation. Most people would consider a primary or secondary frequency allocation, a frequency allocation....as the name would suggest. The context of my response was to a poster that implied ham radio and BPL should stay on their own frequencies. BPL has no such frequencies.
I know ARRL lawyers disagree with this portion of the law, and argue in nearly all of their filings with the FCC that the Commission has no authority to authorize Part 15 operation in the first place. But they've been trying for over 25 years to win that point, and haven't done so yet (I suppose that's why the position the ARRL takes in press releases to the public and their membership is a much more reasonable one than this official position they take in the FCC filings. Or maybe they have no idea what their lawyers are doing). You or someone claimed this here before and I asked for some quote or something to support this, but I haven't seen anything. The ARRL has questioned the FCC's ability to allow BPL under Part 15 as the rules were clearly never written with broadband large geographical emitters in mind, but never their authority to authorize Part 15 devices. That would be just plain stupid, since every piece of electronics gear in the US and even ham radio equipment is allowed to exist under Part 15. The ARRL's public and FCC filing positions are the same -- in every news article they link to PDFs of their filings, and it's available via the FCC ECFS to the general public, so I'm not sure how they could pull off such a ruse as you would suggest. It's foolhardy to think ARRL management would spend money on lawyers not representing core ARRL positions on issues when there's thousands of dues-paying members that read all their filings. Again, please quote something from an ARRL filing that supports your statement, otherwise I call you-know-what 
BTW, UTP telephone wring is not perfectly balanced, and radiates some as well. With the rollout of VDSL expecially, there was concern about harmful interference in the HF band. Unlike much of the BPL community, however, the DSL community took up the issue head-on, and did technical analyses and field measurements that ulimately resulted in the ham bands being notched out of the VDSL spectrum. Leaky coax cable systems are also frequently an issue. Agreed, but UTP wiring and even leaky cable systems are much better off with regards to radiation that BPL can ever be.
Bottom line is that it's too bad that these idiot BPL operators in Virginia decided to try to use PR rather than engineering to deal with the issue, and ended up giving all BPL a bad name. It's too bad that the BPL technology supplier used for most of the BPL trials in the U.S. also didn't care about interference. But if you look at Cincinnati, where Current Technologies has been operating for quite some time, hams are OK, airplanes aren't falling out of the sky, and emergency communications services work just fine. So apparently there is a technical solution to these issues, if the willingness to implement it is there, along with the required engineering expertice.
I agree this can be made to work, although it's somewhat of a false solution. Someone's spectrum is getting trashed when a BPL system is in operation. Notching just moves it away from the squeaky wheel. Manassas isn't the first system to give BPL a bad name, though it's the most recent. | |
| | 
grcore
GOP FAIL
join:2003-12-06
usa
| lame said by markopoleo :Lets hope common sense hits the FCC in the head, maybe even send the ham ops takedown orders instead. lol That was a pretty lame troll...
You can do better can't you? | |
| | | markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO | Re: lame How is that trolling? Its just stating what everyone is thinking. Trolling would be me saying "HAMS suck, wish they would all disappear". I know HAMs are use full, but not in USA anymore (minus Alaska and Hawaii perhaps). | |
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Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
Premium
join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH
 ·Cox HSI
| Re: lame said by markopoleo :How is that trolling? Its just stating what everyone is thinking. I'll do my own thinking thanks!!!! 
--
»www.auralmoon.com/html/ Stimulating ears for 6 years | |
| | | |
grcore
GOP FAIL
join:2003-12-06
usa
| said by markopoleo :Trolling would be me saying "HAMS suck, wish they would all disappear". I know HAMs are use full, but not in USA anymore (minus Alaska and Hawaii perhaps). Is that the best you can do? Or is your writer on strike?
Give it one more try, and put some thought into it this time.. | |
| | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: lame said by grcore :said by markopoleo :Trolling would be me saying "HAMS suck, wish they would all disappear". I know HAMs are use full, but not in USA anymore (minus Alaska and Hawaii perhaps). Is that the best you can do? Or is your writer on strike? Give it one more try, and put some thought into it this time.. You are asking too much of him.
First rule of trolling is to have at least a valid argument to enrage someone with.  Ask him about how Europe uses DC power instead of AC like here in the US. | |
| | | | 
pvale
Lurk, Lurk, Lurk,They Call Me The Lurker
join:2000-03-29
Washington, MO
clubs:
·Charter Pipeline
| It doesn't matter, even if we were tiddly-wink flippers. We are LICENSED users of the spectrum, and as such, the unlicensed services need to protect the licensed user from interference. And we were here first. And all of your BPL systems are UNLICENSED Part 15 devices. To those who say ham radio is irrelevant, we have totally separate infrastructure that will let me send a message across the country on my own power to a similarly equipped ham. Homeland Security takes us seriously, including funding training for those who want to take it to be trained to government communicator standards. If my home station, which has 3 days of backup power, becomes untenable, I can have my equipment in the field, hooked up and operating inside of an hour. We take public service seriously.
Cheers
Perry Vale Extra-class Amateur Radio Operator N0MXJ | |
| | | | KB2PSM
join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
1 edit | You are a troll by history...
quick to post a factually void and baseless comment only to never return to give proof of your claims or to refute the intelligent responses of others.
Not all of us exist in a vacuum.
Rob
said by markopoleo :How is that trolling? Its just stating what everyone is thinking. Trolling would be me saying "HAMS suck, wish they would all disappear". I know HAMs are use full, but not in USA anymore (minus Alaska and Hawaii perhaps). | |
| | K4GVT
join:2006-01-24
Manassas, VA
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. Well obviously your misguided view is one sided.
Look, BPL is flawed even from a data exchange point of view.
If the system was in full use the data rate would so low do to packet collisions.
We hear and see this even with the limited customer base here in Manassas.
If you think this is a panacea for linking to the Internet, think again.
Why not focus on wireless technology instead?
Additionally BPL is highly susceptible to ingress from other RF sources.
Are you prepared to be interrupted by every mobile (not just Hams) operator
driving through town. "BPL is a "flawed technology!"
George
| |
| | | | | Slacker44
join:2001-05-10
Gilbert, AZ | Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. Do they speak in plain english or do I have to learn some sort of underground nerd speak? | |
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Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. In order to be a HAM operator you must have your license to do so. Same as GMRS radio.
What you say is nerd talk, is plain english for people who understand. or are you basically saying if someone was talking to you in japanese and you did not understand would that consitute as nerd talk? Or simply your plain ignorance? | |
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Rogers1
join:2004-10-14
Canada | Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. I prefer the Term Geek | |
| | | markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO | I bet if you did a survey not a single one needed a HAM other than to "chit chat". Or if they did use it for something it could of been done easier with a cell phone. | |
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Slidetbone
Mazin Go
Premium
join:2002-11-10
Land O Lakes, FL
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. Chit-chat? Get real!
You may not know it, but HAM operators are all over the USA, Canada...worldwide!
When the NY blackout happened, it was amateur radio that took over. When Katrina hit Louisiana and Mississippi, HAM radio was in full force.
Reliability of a HAM radio depends on the rig, the antenna and/or access to repeaters. In all cases, these rigs put out more wattage than the 0.6 watt cellphone. And when the power is out, no celltower, no cell coverage. Go to a remote site and see what gets used in normal and emergency communications.
HAM will never die! Just hope you do not need to depend on a HAM operator in your lifetime. | |
| | | | 
Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
upstate NJ
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
| You fail to realize that radio is a HOBBY for these people. It is not a "cell phone." Far from it.... Show me a cell phone that can talk from New York to Sydney Australia, or to the middle of China or Siberia for FREE and I'll give you a cookie.
There is a lot more to ham radio than you think. The majority of the hobby today is high tech and no longer "AM radio."
Earth-Moon-Earth, Packet Radio (the ORIGINAL technology digital cell phone is based on) etc... If it wasn't for hams, those "cell phones" wouldn't be as small as they are today. A lot of experimentation and SUPPORT in times of need when everything else is down comes from hams. Ask any first responder, or the department of homeland security, FEMA, etc and they will tell you. Ham Radio ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Services and RACES Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service are connected directly to municipal/state/federal agencies. Ever hear of MARS? Military Amateur Radio Service? Amateur Radio operators are given permission to operate on Military frequencies and participate in drills and help the military when asked upon.
I myself participate in 4 daily "traffic" nets for emergency preparedness across New York and New Jersey and a weekly Skywarn net for severe weather preparedation. I spend countless hours "helping" my community. Maybe you don't see it with your eyes, but when I am needed, I'll be ready. Just like you don't respect the Emergency Squad who will save your life if you had a heart attack until you actually need them.
Take care,
A Computer and Radio Geek,
-Tzale | |
| | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by markopoleo :I bet if you did a survey not a single one needed a HAM other than to "chit chat". Or if they did use it for something it could of been done easier with a cell phone. Survey says, "You have no clue what you are talking about."
Ask the people about cell phones during Katrina. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| said by markopoleo :I bet if you did a survey not a single one needed a HAM other than to "chit chat". Or if they did use it for something it could of been done easier with a cell phone. Cellular calls are private, point to point communications. HAM radio has the advantage that anyone can listen, and any licensed HAM can 'drop in' and participate in the discussion. It's a great way to meet people and make new friends. Think of it as a verbal form of internet forum.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! | |
| | | | KB2PSM
join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
| Hey, redeem yourself...contact every single one of those folks and post back completely true and unbiased results.
We are waiting...
said by markopoleo :I bet if you did a survey not a single one needed a HAM other than to "chit chat". Or if they did use it for something it could of been done easier with a cell phone. | |
| |
rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| said by markopoleo :Honestly, how many HAM ops can there be in Manassas, Virginia that can get the FCC to shut down a whole ISP.. Not an ISP, a BPL network. Comtek messed up when their own measurement reports shown they were above the emissions limit. The emissions limit doesn't really involve hams and is independent of the harmful interference language in Part 15.
Lets hope common sense hits the FCC in the head, maybe even send the ham ops takedown orders instead. lol
But the law says the BPL system (unlicensed Part 15) can't interfere with any licensed services. Common sense would dictate that they need to follow their own laws. Sounds like you need a dose of common sense.
Too bad you put so much energy into your trolling and can't support any of your past nonsensical posts like this one with facts. | |
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See 10 replies to this post | |
| 
MacLeech
The one and only
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-14
SoCal
| said by markopoleo :Honestly, how many HAM ops can there be in Manassas, Virginia that can get the FCC to shut down a whole ISP.. Lets hope common sense hits the FCC in the head, maybe even send the ham ops takedown orders instead. lol You do realize that your Charter cable modem service (like all DOCSIS cable networks) upstream connection runs in the same frequency range that the BPL systems do... don't you?
Cable lines run parallel to electric lines for miles just a few feet away.... so the possibility of interference is huge.
If such a BPL system were lit up in your area, more then likely your cable modem service would go down or be unreliable.... for weeks or months...
--
For official Adelphia support, contact Adelphia. I'm just here for advice... | |
| | |
rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by MacLeech :said by markopoleo :Honestly, how many HAM ops can there be in Manassas, Virginia that can get the FCC to shut down a whole ISP.. Lets hope common sense hits the FCC in the head, maybe even send the ham ops takedown orders instead. lol You do realize that your Charter cable modem service (like all DOCSIS cable networks) upstream connection runs in the same frequency range that the BPL systems do... don't you? Cable lines run parallel to electric lines for miles just a few feet away.... so the possibility of interference is huge. If such a BPL system were lit up in your area, more then likely your cable modem service would go down or be unreliable.... for weeks or months... Not necessarily. There's a key difference between BPL and cable. Cable is shielded, BPL is not. If Cable had the same radiation characteristics as BPL, it would wreck all the spectrum from HF to UHF and take out just about everything. But cable has been using these same frequencies for years with nearly no problems to wireless licensees due to the shielding and strict radiation guidelines. This is what makes BPL such a bad choice, they're attempting to create a really bad leaky cable system, and minimize the damage to spectrum by using only HF and VHF frequencies, and when that doesn't work, deny there's issues in press releases. | |
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MacLeech
The one and only
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-14
SoCal
3 edits | Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. As a cable system maintenance tech, one of my duties is to fight ingress into the system... along with fixing egress (leak) sources.
Its a full time job.
The system isn't perfectly shielded. So some stuff ALWAYS gets in and its much harder to find those then the RF unintentionally leaking out.
FCC requires cable companies to search for, log, and fix any leaks (egress). Ingress isn't controlled by the FCC and most cable companies only look for it when it becomes an issue. So there are lots of minor ingress sources that never get fixed.
Usually its from point sources like breaks in the cable, bad equipment connected to the system (aka cheap TVs, VCRs, TV tuner cards, etc...), or radio transmitters overwhelming the shielding in some locations.
Imagine what would happen with a RF source a few feet away from the cable across the most of the cable distribution system... EVERY weak spot will become an ingress source. It'd be ingress WAY beyond the random stuff affecting most cable systems now...
...right in the frequency range used by ALL upstream communications on a cable system.
Cable modems, VOD, interactive cable services of all types would be affected.
--
For official Adelphia support, contact Adelphia. I'm just here for advice... | |
| | 
ARGONAUT
got ping?
join:2006-01-24
New Albany, IN | The HAMs use public air waves and a privet company is disrupting public waves... | |
| | 
K9ERG
@zblibrary.org
| It is not a problem confined to the immediate Manassas VA area. The problem is GLOBAL.
Imagine you are in a life boat in the middle of the North Atlantic and you have a 25 Watt HF radio with which you should be able to communicate with shore stations. Assume that conditions are such that the only shore stations that would hear you are in Manassas VA. The ~6.25 micro-volt signal you would produce into the receiver in Manassas would be wiped out by the 500 micro-volts of garbage radiated 24/7 by the ComTek BPL system. | |
| | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by K9ERG :
Imagine you are in a life boat in the middle of the North Atlantic and you have a 25 Watt HF radio with which you should be able to communicate with shore stations.
Ah....everyone knows you would just pull out your cell phone and since no one else is around to interfere you can reach all the way to the next cell tower. Besides, modern vessels do not sink. *innocent look*
DISCLAIMER: I am a licensed radio operator, an emergency communications specialist for my (neighborhood, parish, ward, district, or whatever name you use), member of the Ogden Sheriffs Commo Team and the Davis Emergency Communications Team, and in the past four years a witness to several activations of Ham radio both in the BPL band and outside of it when all other communications failed or were not usable. Yeah, I am prejudiced towards the value of radio over BPL, radio is used more often than many people realize.
--
I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by RayW :said by K9ERG :
Imagine you are in a life boat in the middle of the North Atlantic and you have a 25 Watt HF radio with which you should be able to communicate with shore stations.
Ah....everyone knows you would just pull out your cell phone and since no one else is around to interfere you can reach all the way to the next cell tower. Besides, modern vessels do not sink. *innocent look* NO NO NO!!!!! You need to whip out you extremely expensive sat phone and pay a few dollars a minute to get help. | |
| | | enkid
join:2006-02-12
East Providence, RI
| K9ERG is right - the problem is global. Perhaps a more realistic lifeboat example would be if the radio propagation from the Manassas area to your lifeboat is really good; the interference would make it more difficult for you to communicate with anyone, anywhere, from the lifeboat. Now add a few more BPL systems in other cities - they'd pretty much blanket the entire planet with radio noise, making it more difficult for anyone to communicate via HF radio. | |
| | | | | | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op. said by MysticGogeta :They might call a EPA the ham operators are an endangered species (I assume you are being sarcastic to the "head in the sand" people, but....)
Not really. My 13 year old just got her license. And in the same test session three other kids ranging from 13 to 15 did the same. Out of 24 taking the test, 19 passed and now have licenses to operate as 'hams'.
Of course there were about five or six others who decided NOT to take the test once they learned it was not like CB and there were enforced legal ramifications for incorrect usage.
Isn't it amazing that every time someone mentions BPL, how the same people say 'who needs hams' and bring out the same physics challenged, geographically challenged, and blind views? Thus sidetracking the original thread ...ummm... about 75% of the postings at least? Must be nice to live in a cocoon where nothing goes wrong and the only reality is a computer.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
 ·Verizon Wireless B..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| said by markopoleo :Honestly, how many HAM ops can there be in Manassas, Virginia that can get the FCC to shut down a whole ISP.. Lets hope common sense hits the FCC in the head, maybe even send the ham ops takedown orders instead. lol Obviously more than you estimated. Either that, or an FCC ham operator got tired of the noise floor due to this poor attempt of the power company trying to offer broadband. Either way, the evidence is there, the interference exists, and despite what argument or flamer posts in this forum, the public, including the FCC agree, the power company is in violation of the intended agreement with the FCC. Hams were here first, regardless of what you think of them. They are the ones who invested in sensitive radio equipment so they could communicate long distances, not a major company. They deserve a voice, and the respect of compliance, since they would be under fire if they did not comply with their FCC/Ham licenses. I think this is fair, and it's about time a half assed operation got shut down for causing drama in a spectrum that does not cause harm back. The BPL provider should fix the issue, and re-deploy the right equipment. With that said, tell me whats so wrong with that idea. Forget the fact that you think ham is outdated, keep in mind the fact that this technology was not designed to use the frequency its negatively affecting, and so therefore it's flawed. Since ham came first, the BPL operator is knowingly violating the law by causing interference on Ham spectrum. It's like me parking my car in your driveway, out of your vehicles way. It would still piss you off I was parked there, because it's your driveway, not mine, and I have no right to invade your space if I don't have your permission. The reality of it all is it boils down to ethics. The power company is just trying to make a buck off the misery of others. Ham equipment is definately nowhere near cheap, so I'd be pissed too.
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SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1. | |
| | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by markopoleo :Honestly, how many HAM ops can there be in Manassas, Virginia that can get the FCC to shut down a whole ISP.. Lets hope common sense hits the FCC in the head, maybe even send the ham ops takedown orders instead. lol There are enough HAMs in Manassas to report all the spectrum pollution that comes from that BPL deployment.
As for common sence, go read the Code of Federal Regulations before you start spouting off what you know NOTHING about. | |
| | | | 
KF6HCD
Kindly Shut Your Noise Hole.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
Yucaipa, CA
·Verizon FIOS
| said by markopoleo :Honestly, how many HAM ops can there be in Manassas, Virginia that can get the FCC to shut down a whole ISP.. Lets hope common sense hits the FCC in the head, maybe even send the ham ops takedown orders instead. lol Clearly, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about... You really should go to your clue locker and pick one. What do YOU care what happens in Manassas? You don't even live there. You just want to sow hate and discontent because you either hate hams or you have nothing of any real substance to contribute. As long as this issue has been in play on this site, you have done nothing but slam hams. Give it a rest already.
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Who is "Roger?", and why is everybody saying his name on the radio? | |
| | p51d007
Naa-P51d Mustang
join:2002-06-07
Springfield, MO | I pray you never have a natural disaster that takes down your phone lines, electric grid & cell phones, because that Amateur radio operator may be the only communications you have.
73's
kb0gnk | |
| 
reub2000
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Evanston, IL | Glad to see Glad to see a company being forced to follow the law. | |
| |
hahahaa
@midco.net | Re: Glad to see finally the fcc is doing it's job only took 4 years of ham and other complaining but i know this is how fast government works anyhow even if bpl was working right it would take the fcc 10 years to get the paper work done. | |
| 
Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26
| Ahem...
Federal law, in the form of FCC regulations, make "ham" radio (otherwise known as the "Amateur Radio Service) a Primary radio service on most of the frequencies that "hams" are licensed to operate on.
A BPL installation (part 15 of the rules governing unlicensed low power transmissions) cannot cause interference on these frequencies. If it does, the FCC first expects the operators of the BPL system to take whatever steps are required to end the interference and, if they cant, they will be forced to cease operation. This is the law and the public safety and business band users have the same rights as primary users of their licensed frequencies.
You can make dumbassed comments about geek speak if you like, but that just shows your ignorance about a subject you shouldn't be popping off about to begin with and you should be embarrassed.
Comes the time YOU have a tornado, disaster, earthquake, etc and your local government is paralyzed because their multi million dollar trunked system that they made you pay for (never mind that they had a perfectly useable and dependable VHF system), fails.
Then you'll be damn glad that the "Hams" are around, because they will be the only ones who can get you help or info. This is why Congress has mandated the FCC to treat Amateur Radio as a Homeland Security resource.
And, the "Hams" VOLUNTEER to do this. It's one thing to be ignorant and babble, it's quite another to take the time to know what you are talking about and get off your ass and help when the chips are down. | |
| | bigskank
join:2002-06-07
Norman, OK
| Re: Ahem... said by Fatal Vector :You can make dumbassed comments about geek speak if you like, but that just shows your ignorance about a subject you shouldn't be popping off about to begin with and you should be embarrassed. Comes the time YOU have a tornado, disaster, earthquake, etc and your local government is paralyzed because their multi million dollar trunked system that they made you pay for (never mind that they had a perfectly useable and dependable VHF system), fails. Then you'll be damn glad that the "Hams" are around, because they will be the only ones who can get you help or info. This is why Congress has mandated the FCC to treat Amateur Radio as a Homeland Security resource. And, the "Hams" VOLUNTEER to do this. It's one thing to be ignorant and babble, it's quite another to take the time to know what you are talking about and get off your ass and help when the chips are down. Well put. | |
| |
Slidetbone
Mazin Go
Premium
join:2002-11-10
Land O Lakes, FL | Roger that! | |
| | 
Rogue Wolf
Drank Your Milkshake- He Drank It Up
join:2003-08-12
Troy, NY | You're introducing facts and reason into a heated argument! Is that ALLOWED?!
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Network failure. Hit any user to continue. | |
| | |
Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Re: Ahem... A couple more posts like that from Fatal Vector and we would have a revolution in DSLR. | |
| Taget
join:2004-07-29
| Unfortunately makes sense. We all are in favor of more competition for broadband regardless. But there are two issues here which are rather central to the FCC's mandate.
First making sure that users of one spectrum don't infringe on anothers spectrum so that there isnt chaos. That everything works all the time. Tv stations shouldn't drown each other out. Or overpower local radio stations. Cell phone calls shouldnt disrupt police communication. It's all really basic.
The power company in Massassas neeeds to figure out how to control the noise or else the FCC SHOULD crack the whip. Of course this is meant to be a test case and I do applaud the FCC for giving it a chance to see how it works.
But in the end they need to clean themselves up rather than change the rules of the game if they want the trial to continue and if they want the opportunity to deploy elsewhere.
As far as hams themselves. A rather odd and strange lot. Some of their claims of being vital in an emergency are probably overblown. But I do like the idea of the whole enterprise. Out of all the broadcast spectrum there is a little bit reserved not for the largest of corporate interests or the most powerful of government entities. But a little bit that lets any shmo who applies for a licence the right to go "on-air." | |
| | 
Balzer
Cat Man Dew
join:2000-12-18
Tulsa | Re: Unfortunately makes sense. It takes more to get on the air than that! Do some research and learn about ham radio. Google is not that hard to use! | |
|
annony
@myvzw.com
| HAMS save the world ... right Have yet to see an *independent* source/orgranization acknowledge HAM operaters as helping out. Still stands in my book as totally bogus. I've seen this argument again and again and right after disasters see HAMS here slaping each other on the back for saving the world. And I repeatly ask please show me one URL from an *independent* *organization* acknowledging their contribution. Oh the best I've then seen after commenting that ARRL is NOT and independent and other HAMS blogs is NOT an organization is comments about you "TROLL" | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
Dusty101568
@172.0.x.x
| freq questions Just a couple of questions so I can understand the argument a little better.
1) How many freq's can ham operate on?
2) Does BPL interfere on ALL freq's or can Ham's just change to another freq to continue there hobby/communications?
Seems like I read something about notching freqs.
3)If BPL notched some of the possible freq's for Hams, could they co-exist?
Why does it have to be ALL OR NONE? | |
| |
rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: freq questions said by Dusty101568 :
Just a couple of questions so I can understand the argument a little better.
1) How many freq's can ham operate on?
In the HF bands (1-30 Mhz) which BPL can affect, Amateur Radio has nine bands totalling 3.75 Mhz.
2) Does BPL interfere on ALL freq's or can Ham's just
change to another freq to continue there hobby/communications?
It depends on the brand of BPL system and how the local operator has configured it. I've seen some that blanket 1 - 30 Mhz. Others pick and chose 3-5 Mhz wide bands in various places. BPL systems need more spectrum to provide more bandwidth, so they will need more frequencies as time goes on.
Different frequency bands have different characteristics throughout the day and during solar events, so it's not as simple as just moving to another band. It's like when you want to watch your football team play on a TV channel, but the channel is out and someone tells you to go watch baseball on another channel.
Seems like I read something about notching freqs.
3)If BPL notched some of the possible freq's for Hams, could they co-exist?
Yes and no, it's dependent on the depth of the notch. Some manufacturers consider -20dB to be a sufficient notch, while in practice a notch depth of -40dB is a more realistic need. Some manufacturers turn on notches by default, others don't. As the system is notched, end user bandwidth is reduced, so notching is at odds with providing service. However, if all manufacturers notched by default with good -40dB notches, there probably would be few problems for amateurs. This, of course, doesn't address the problems with the other 90% of the spectrum users.
Why does it have to be ALL OR NONE?
It depends who you're asking the question. BPL providers will want more spectrum, especially once they start pushing 200Mbs BPL. But BPL is a wired network. There is no other wired network in the world that ruins wireless spectrum. If BPL actually used the spectrum rather than polluting it, they could conceivable ask for wireless spectrum. While this is out of the question since it's a wired network, assume for the moment they could petition for spectrum. At best they could expect to get 1 or 2 Mhz since most of the spectrum is allocated to government, military, aeronautical, maritime, and international uses. This amount of spectrum could deliver perhaps 4 Mbs of bandwidth. Even eliminating ham radio and giving the 3.75 Mhz of HF spectrum to BPL would yield a meager 7.5 Mbs of bandwidth. So instead, the BPL industry has chosen to build a network under FCC Part 15, ignoring or moving the radiation problems as they arise, and will always be at odds with licensed wireless services. If BPL was the only way to deliver broadband, they might have a leg to stand on. But despite seven or eight years of development and three years of intense, well-funded lobbying in the United States, BPL is serving only about 4,000 customers. Cable and DSL adds more subscribers each day than BPL has in its entire lifetime.
Amateurs have dealt with interference for decades, especially point-source power transmission noise and noise from consumer devices. BPL is a different animal, however. It's really the only type of interference that is on 24x7x365, and it's emanating from perhaps the "best" distributed antenna system, power lines. This makes the interference inescapable. FCC Part 15 rules were written for small, point-source type interference from consumer devices and have worked reasonable well over the years. BPL is operating under these rules which are totally inappropriate for a wideband, large geographical interferer like BPL.
Regardless of the value of Amateur Radio you may or may not perceive, it still provides both educational and recreational value for millions internationally, and there's a public service component as well. Amateur Radio spectrum is one of the few wireless resources dedicated to the general public and not private interests. Imagine how upset folks would be if the unlicensed 802.11 2.4 Ghz band available for general public use was made useless by a private corporate interest in an entire community. | |
| moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Too funny..... Everytime BPL comes up for discussion, it always degenerates into the wants of the broadband community with the needs of the HAM community.
It usually starts off with the "anti-HAM" crowd going off about how internet service is more important and HAM radio needs to die since they no longer useful.
Then, the HAMs come in defending their hobby and how the BPL companies have to follow the rules set down by the FCC.
What is so funny is that if BPL interfered with someone's TV or radio, you would have people up in arms, with pitchforks and torches, marching down to the FCC and/or power company demanding that BPL be shut down for the common good.
More that 90% of the anti-HAM crowd does nothing but hurl insults, spout off moronic statements, and state dubious facts to discredit those that try to make the BPL providers follow the law.
If you are going to go up against the HAMs, you need to do your homework. Most of us are quite educated. We know the law, we know our frequencies, we know how things work.
Here are some more facts for the pro-BPL crowd to choke on:
1. Not all BPL systems pollute the HF spectrum. The system in Manassas does but some do not.
2. BPL is Part 15 rules, Amatuer Radio is Part 97. Look it up in the Federal Code of Regulations if you don't know what that means.
3. BPL is NOT being deployed to rural areas.
4. HAM radio is still used in emergency and disaster communication. Cells phones don't work long without power or telephone lines (and backup power doesn't last that long either.) Sat phones cost way too much for regular people to afford. | |
| | RFJUNKIE
join:2003-11-12
Ajo, AZ
| Re: Too funny..... I think we are missing the big picture here .. hams are but a very small portion that is being interfered with... aircraft commercial and private are in the vhf freq range...lots of law enforcement are still in the vhf range, military, ships, submarines in the low bands... really anyone with a radio on or above the frequency being used by BPL can be interfered with!!!..any frequency above the fundamental freq. is harmonically interfered with all the way up the bands...a wire long enough is pretty much resonate at abt any frequency.. you cannot beat a long BPL electric utility wire for a great radiating antenna!!! also egress/ ingress.. when the sunspot cycle starts I predict BPL will be useless anyway...anything that lets radiation out lets radiation in.....even if there were no hams on this planet the FCC would still have to shut down some BPL's if the FCC follows the regulation rules!!!! | |
| | | MrBentor
join:2003-02-18
Seattle, WA
·Comcast
| Other spectrum bands also contaminated. The HAMs are only a small subset of the users affected by the spectrum polluted by the bad BPL implementation. Currently they appear to be the most vocal.
Even though the HAMs are a very tiny sliver of the affected spectrum. Please see »www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf a chart of spectrum uses. They play their own important roll, and they may understand the issue better than many commercial or public users. But the non-HAM users are just as affected. If I am paying thousands dollars a year for business band channel licenses, I am not going to want to have that interfered with.
The BPL contaminated spaces are also affecting things like the business band, EMS/police frequencies, marine/aircraft operations, cellular and mobile, and even broadcast television and radio. Do you want the ambulance that you called not go get dispatched because BPL was leaking RF and they could not receive their orders?
So if speculatively you have a poor BPL implementation contaminating everything from 100mhz to 200mhz; in there you have aeronautical radio navigation (108 – 117 mhz), aviation radio (117 – 137mhz), misc Uses, sat, mobile (138 – 144mhz), HAMs (144 – 149mhz), business band, fixed mobile, maritime communications, police and EMS (150 -174mhz), television channels 7 – 13 (174 – 216 mhz). What do we tell those [licensed] users, too bad, Joe Sixpack needs BPL to download his internet porn? | |
| | | | David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA
·Be There
| Re: Other spectrum bands also contaminated. The amateur community understands the issues and is free to comment, tough to speak up when you are government employee.
Other users have placed their trust to keep the spectrum clean in the hands of the FCC, a duty in which the FCC has totally failed.
A transoceanic airline pilot has never heard of BPL he/she just expects to turn on their HF radio and be in contact. Being 2,000 miles from land and out of contact is not good news when you are responsible for 450 people. | |
| GhostFreeman
join:2004-06-04
Rising Fawn, GA
| Motorola working on better BPL tech Comtek probably shoulda done what Motorola did in response to BPL interference, and that is buddy up with the ARRL in making their equipment less likely to interfere. Comtek trying to fight it is only going to draw the FCC back to their regular job of maintaining frequencies. | |
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