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BellBoy
Obama racist? Then Bush is Hitler.
Premium
join:2001-02-20
Los Angeles, CA
clubs:
 ·Pacific Bell - SBC
1 edit | Boo F-in Hoo "The two lawsuits appear to be similar in the claims and both are without merit," said Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler . "They distort our antipiracy program…and the harm piracy brings to Microsoft and to customers."
...and the harm of M$ poking their noses around people's computers that are already paranoid about damage done to their personal information because of M$'s desire to constantly release lousy operating systems.
Sue their asses and keep them honest...expose the code that's doing the snooping. M$ already has the market share for global domination...how much more greedy can they get?
What are they afraid of...Apple? They should be... | |
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BIGMIKE
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Westminster, CA
| Re: Boo F-in Hoo These people have been cracking WGA since it came out, first with Javascript, then later with cracked DLL's
I have no problem updating windows. 
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Type "miserable failure" in Google | |
| | | garywk
join:2001-03-06
Clarkston, WA
| Re: Boo F-in Hoo said by BIGMIKE  :These people have been cracking WGA since it came out, first with Javascript, then later with cracked DLL's I have no problem updating windows. Ummm.... Just who are "these people" and do you have personal knowledge they have been cracking WGA? If so why are they suing? Wouldn't that just be really stupid? Call attention to yourself by entering into a lawsuit with MS in which MS's lawyers will most like serve a subpeona requiring they show proof of whether or not the organizations and people involved in the lawsuits have legitimate copies of MS's OS?
Great thinking there buddy.... That was some keen analysis.
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"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom."
Dwight David Eisenhower | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
2 edits | said by BellBoy :What are they afraid of...Apple? They should be... They can't be afraid of a company that tells people to buy a mac because it runs windows. Apple no longer is competing with Microsoft, they are helping. If someone buys a mac and installs windows on it, microsoft wins. Especially if they pay retail for it.
If anything it appears that Apple is just phasing out the MacOS by getting people on a computer that runs windows. | |
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BellBoy
Obama racist? Then Bush is Hitler.
Premium
join:2001-02-20
Los Angeles, CA
clubs:
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Boo F-in Hoo said by insomniac84 :said by BellBoy :What are they afraid of...Apple? They should be... They can't be afraid of a company that tells people to buy a mac because it runs windows. Apple no longer is competing with Microsoft, they are helping. If someone buys a mac and installs windows on it, microsoft wins. Especially if they pay retail for it. If anything it appears that Apple is just phasing out the MacOS by getting people on a computer that runs windows. I'm not sure where your logic is going with that because M$ has already won. The market share numbers have been in their favor for years now. But...the numbers are starting to turn...
What Apple is doing, rather smartly I'd say, is to give people another alternative. A much more efficient, more attractive, yet less buggy and prone to attack alternative. Apple is a hardware company more than they are a software company. It's to their benefit to get people to take a look at a better OS if that will make them hardware customers. IMO, the OS money is gravy to them when they can get a customer in a store to buy a computer and perhaps an iPod, and perhaps XXXX (whatever).
I highly doubt that the Mac OS will be phased out anytime soon in favor of Windows...hey, but it's Apple and we didn't see the Intel transition coming either.
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"When the day comes that anyone can bend our country's laws and lawmakers to serve selfish, competitive ends, that day democratic government dies." -- Preston Tucker, June 1948 | |
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ifarrell
join:2000-08-10
Willow Spring, NC
 ·Vonage
| said by insomniac84 :said by BellBoy :What are they afraid of...Apple? They should be... They can't be afraid of a company that tells people to buy a mac because it runs windows. Apple no longer is competing with Microsoft, they are helping. If someone buys a mac and installs windows on it, microsoft wins. Especially if they pay retail for it. If anything it appears that Apple is just phasing out the MacOS by getting people on a computer that runs windows. I actually know of several dozen people the got Macs in the last few months with the notion of running Windows either using Boot Camp or under Parallels.
All but two didn't bother because they found out that they could do everything they wanted in MacOSX. The two that installed Windows (both used Parallels) was to run one program that wasn't available for the Mac that they needed.
Microsoft is slowly loosing to people like these and they are convincing others.
Apple created Boot Camp to entice Windows Users on the fence about getting a Mac.
Apple will never get rid of their OS and if you actually used one you'd know why. | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß | Re: Boo F-in Hoo Mac won't get rid of it's OS because it's the highest margin product they make. Something has got to make up for the money they lose on every iPod. | |
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cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Boo F-in Hoo Incorrect. Apple's hardware sales is their greatest margin for profit.
Recall that iLife is not free. Prior, iPhoto, itunes, iMovie HD were free. Unless you purchase a new mac, you have to buy iLife for upgrade.
When Apple serializes MAC OS X, then will you understand, nothing is free.
Apple's Widgets phone home. Just use Lil' snitch and block.
I don't mind WGA, but I'd like to know what ports to close that it and other "sneakies" are using. | |
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ilikefoam
@embarqhsd.net | I wonder if there were no pirates of softwall at all if the price of MS software would be less expensive? | |
| | | wh5916
join:2006-02-09
Newport News, VA
| Re: Boo F-in Hoo said by ilikefoam :
I wonder if there were no pirates of softwall at all if the price of MS software would be less expensive?
I'm sure the folks who sold $20 software titles for the Atari 8-bit computers thought the same thing at one time.
There are people out there who'll happily crack the protection scheme to unlock a $10 piece of shareware. | |
| | | | | | | | | Formeister
join:2000-10-28
Somers, CT
clubs:
| Wow, I had no idea this sh*t was going down w/MS (seldom look at those forums). I'm so glad I switched to Linux a few years ago, there were a lot of bugs in the begining, and a huge learning curve but I certainly never had to put up with this kind of crap. Last time I ever ran into anything that invasive was AOL about 10 years ago. | |
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Pz_
join:2001-03-31
Brownsburg, IN
clubs: | Re: Reaching? MS unload a program? Just take a look at that long process list that is loaded by default to get the answer to that. | |
| | | | | Necronomikro
join:2005-09-01 | The problem is that they're changing their model now, AFTER THE PURCHASE. They're changing how you can get your updates, becoming more imposing upon you, AFTER THE PURCHASE. It'd be different if it were this way all along, but it's not. | |
| | yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON | WGA can download and install new versions of itself without your consent. | |
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nekkidtruth
You fail at life.
Premium
join:2002-05-20
London, ON
1 edit | *sigh* The sad part is, we're in a no-win situation here.
Piracy allegedly (I say allegedly because there are valid reasons for piracy) hurts everyone and is a big issue. A logical response would be to create some type of an activation system and or authentication system as those we're starting to see.
The problem with this, is these companies can't be trusted one bit to secure their own software and nothing more.
These massive corporations become especially greedy and demand more information than necessary and often times try to get this information using means by which any normal person would find "shady".
There will always be someone to crack/hack/pirate software no matter how much they try to lock it down. The sad fact is this war will continue and no one will win. In the meantime, whether you use pirated software or not, we are all suffering because no one can stop the pirates, and the corporations are greedy.
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: *sigh* said by nekkidtruth :The sad part is, we're in a no-win situation here. Piracy allegedly (I say allegedly because there are valid reasons for piracy).. And just what valid reason would that be?
Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Micro$oft, and I could take or leave their overpriced, unsecured, spywared OS, but just when did stealing become acceptable?
If I were to walk into Best Buy, grab a box that had a windows XP upgrade in it (cheapest copy available @ about $99) stuff it under my sweatshirt and get caught trying to take it, I would get locked up. Pirating it is no different. It's stealing.
Is Microsoft greedy? Sure they are, everyone who's in business is there to make money. But 2 wrongs don't make a right, and you have no right to someone else's property, intellectual or otherwise, without fair compensation. | |
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quanta
Premium
join:2002-05-07
Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: *sigh* There is one circumstance I can think of: abandonware. What if you need a program that is no longer sold or supported? In the eyes of the law, procuring it illicitly would be copyright infringement (technically not "stealing" btw).
Stephen Hawking is actually a victim of such a problem - his circa 1980s speech synthesizer software is closed-source, and the originating developer doesn't even exist anymore.
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Happy customer of TOROON08CGO | Silentblue.net
Canadian DSL Troubleshooting and Why Can't I Get It? FAQs | |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: *sigh* said by quanta :There is one circumstance I can think of: abandonware. What if you need a program that is no longer sold or supported? In the eyes of the law, procuring it illicitly would be copyright infringement (technically not "stealing" btw). Stephen Hawking is actually a victim of such a problem - his circa 1980s speech synthesizer software is closed-source, and the originating developer doesn't even exist anymore. I can agree with that. Since the original owner has abandoned it, and has no intention of recovering financially from the program, I don't see that as stealing. I think pirating a copy of Windows 95 would fall into this category. Microsoft stopped selling it a LONG time ago, and has no designs on ever making a buck off it ever again. They're not putting any more money into updating it or supporting it.
The most up to date version of a program, IMHO, is a different story. While MS makes tons of cash off their customers, they have to lay out a considerable amount of money to put that OS out there, write the updates, and etc.
Using the rationale that Microsoft is this huge company with all this money, and that makes it right is simple BS.
People apply that same rationale to inflating their insurance claim when they're in a car accident by faking an injury. It's called insurance fraud, and people go to jail for it.
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Never ask what sort of a computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him? -Tom Clancy | |
| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: *sigh* While I agree with what you said, to a point, there are some I don't.
First, I could care less if M/S has to write updates to their softawre. That's part of their own problem, not mine or ours. If they would spend more time writing software that worked correctly in the first place and put the effort on the front side, less would have to be done on the back side. (Can you say service pack 6? - that's rediculous)
They claim ownership of the software and the fact they they grant us a "license" to use it, well, it's their problem to maintain it.
Second, M/S is costing people time and money... both of which they claim they are suffering a loss on as well. They claim they loose money on piracy. They claim that their time is woth something as well. HOWEVER, when their buggy WGA tool costs ME time and money, as both a consumer AND a business (which sells their products) what about MY time and money that I loose? I've lost enough money on their WGA already. For a small business, a $2,500 hit hurts. Their WGA has pegged legit coppies of software in which I had to replace. M/S didn't care to work through the issues with the customer directly so they came to me. In order to not loose customers, I had to compensate and reissue new keys. (All keys sold came from legit MS resellers as well)
So, no, I do NOT feel sorry for Microsoft. I do consider that since it's THEIR software that THEY should be aburden of ALL expense of maintaining it as well. If THEIR softare casused me damage because of their ACTIONS, they should be held liable. At somet point, they need to unuderstand that they are not going to be able stop all pirates out there. In the process of trying to reach all pirated coppies of the software, they are damaging legit people. NO amount of legit coppies should be hurt. The WGA should be in the consumers favor, NOT Microsofts.
The WGA tool will cause MS a great deal of grief in the long run one way or another - either through the legal system, the feds, law makers, or Apple who is ramping up to compete with them head on soon with their new O/S.
And for the record, I think you comparing insurance fruad to installing a copy of windows on two computers is hardly a good example... though I see your point, you are talking about two extreams. | |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: *sigh* Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't approve of Microsoft's WGA. I think it's "Bravo Sierra". I wouldn't want it running on my system, and I think it's asinine for a legitimate paying user to be subjected to such measures. My original point was made in retort to DSU's statement that "there are valid reasons for piracy".
In response to your very valid point concerning Microsoft's buggy operating system costing business and end users money. If using Microsoft's software is costing people time and money, then perhaps they should chose to run a different OS. I know this isn't practical in all situations, but we have seen it in the proliferation of Linux / Unix use in server applications.
As an end user, I got sick of dealing with my Windows XP box (legitimate, purchased and registered copy) and purchased a Mac. I still have my XP desktop, but I rarely boot it.
I believe I've sent Microsoft the strongest signal I can as a consumer in the marketplace. I've fired them. I don't like their crummy WGA, or the constant patches and problems.
If Microsoft continues to provide what some would consider an inferior product for an inflated price, they will eventually pay the price in the marketplace.
PS, I know there are lots of Windows and OS X fanboys here, and my intention is not to flame either side. I'm not interested in that argument here, as it is a different topic for a different day.
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Never ask what sort of a computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him? -Tom Clancy | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß | couldn't care less | |
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Jim Gurd
Premium
join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI | If that's the case there would be nobody who would have legal standing to litigate a piracy claim. | |
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joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
·AT&T U-Verse
| said by quanta :There is one circumstance I can think of: abandonware. What if you need a program that is no longer sold or supported? In the eyes of the law, procuring it illicitly would be copyright infringement (technically not "stealing" btw). Stephen Hawking is actually a victim of such a problem - his circa 1980s speech synthesizer software is closed-source, and the originating developer doesn't even exist anymore. And what does that have to do with pirating windows? By definition pirated software is unlicensed software.
If you had a version of software that requires an old version of Windows to run, all XP OEM license allow to downgrade, IE: you could purchase a machine with Windows XP OEM and install an old Windows 98SE CD, totally within the terms of the licese and this installation would not be "pirated."
So I still fail to understand any case where it could be correct to pirate software.
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Am Heimcomputer sitz' ich hier, und programmier' die Zukunft mir | |
| | | Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC
| "Piracy" is inherently different than stealing a box at Best Buy. I'll give you two different examples:
1- Guy #1 makes a copy of Windows XP. Direct cost for Microsoft: 0$. Direct cost for Best Buy: 0$. No "production" loss.
2- Guy #2 steals a copy from Best Buy. Direct cost for Microsoft: 0$ (they got paid for it when it left their warehouse) Direct cost for Best Buy: 80$? (the amount they paid to the distributor). There's a loss of 80$ for Best Buy.
Difference between situation #1 and #2? 80$. I wouldn't say it's the same.
Saying that making a copy by your own means (your production) is stealing would mean that taking photographs of anything that you don't own stealing as well. After all, you're "stealing" images of unique moments/events/buildings. Why wouldn't the owner be compensated? (and I'm talking about personal use, not commerce of).
I'm all for trying to shutdown copies, but it irks me a little when people say that a copy is the same as stealing something, because it really is not. | |
| | | | eddiek_LV
join:2002-06-23
Las Vegas, NV
| Re: *sigh* How about this? Suppose you spend your own money and time to write a really great program. You sell it to a friend of yours for lets say, $100.00. He turns around and makes 10 copies of the product and gives it to all his friends. Have you just lost $1000, or not? And we don't need to get all technical about license agreements and all that stuff because I have yet to see anything but open source software that can be redistributed free of charge.
The only way to look at piracy is that it is stealing. It doesn't matter if it's buggy software. It doesn't matter that everyone else is doing it. Microsoft has every right to protect their property.
Stealing is stealing no matter what color you paint it.
Don't get me wrong. I think installing spyware is just as wrong. But there are other ways to ensure that the product you install is legitimate. Other companies have done it. | |
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some_sense
@comcast.net
| Re: *sigh* quote:
How about this? Suppose you spend your own money and time to write a really great program. You sell it to a friend of yours for lets say, $100.00. He turns around and makes 10 copies of the product and gives it to all his friends. Have you just lost $1000, or not?
And if none of those friends would have paid you $100 for it, you have lost nothing. You "loose" $100 to piracy, but you would have made 0 sales at $100 too.
I also have no feeling of sorry for MS. Their stuff is on 80% of PC's, they make billions no matter what. Arguing over at max 10% of the installed base is pointless. Sort of like Billy Boi whining he only has $4 billion, not $5 billion. | |
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captokita
Premium
join:2005-02-22
Calabash, NC
| Re: *sigh* said by some_sense : quote:
I also have no feeling of sorry for MS. Their stuff is on 80% of PC's, they make billions no matter what. Arguing over at max 10% of the installed base is pointless. Sort of like Billy Boi whining he only has $4 billion, not $5 billion.
So because it's Microsoft, then it's ok? Or is it because they have money, and that makes it ok? That's crazy. Theft is theft. If it were MY company, I'd sure whine at having $4B instead of $5B thanks to theft.
In the end, Windows is owned by MS - not me, you, or any end user. We buy the right to run the software on a machine. MS should be more up front in it's auth software updates, but in the end, they're updating their software. If you don't like the way they do it, then you buy a Mac or move to Linux. | |
| | | | | Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC
| How about this? Suppose you spend your own money and time to write a really great program. You sell it to a friend of yours for lets say, $100.00. He turns around and makes 10 copies of the product and gives it to all his friends. Have you just lost $1000, or not? You haven't lost $1000 because you never had the $1000 in the first place. You can't lose something that you haven't got. It's faulty logic at its best.
Let's use an extreme example to prove you wrong:
Most of Microsoft's software used in China are not genuine. In an ideal world where nobody would copy Microsoft's software, would Microsoft sell at its regular price a copy to everyone that is using it currently (copied)? Certainly not.
A closer example would be a song you like. If you hear a good song on the radio, good enough to like, not good enough to buy. If you download the song, you have basically infringed copyright, although if you couldn't download it you would not have bought it. So if you download it, the music company and artist get 0$, if you don't download it, the music company and artist get 0$ as well. So both situations have zero effect on the artist or the music company.
In their early years, the group Metallica used to ask their fans to copy their tapes during their shows (and to make bootleg tapes). They basically built up a strong fanbase that way. In the music industry, fame = spent dollars (much like how good a product does is often based on the strenght of a brand).
Several games in the PC industry didn't sell that well, but most probably due to piracy made slowly a strong reputation on a large enough fanbase to prompt the publisher to make a 2nd iteration of the game.
Am I saying piracy is good? Not really. I'm just showing that it isn't stealing as it isn't necessarily depriving anyone of anything. Of course there's also a pretty bad side to piracy as there are people that make a living selling copies (and depriving the author from revenue) and that when piracy is rampant it can seriously affect revenues as well (because legit buyers will copy the program instead).
In our "offer and demand" economy, the basic principle behind the offer and the demand curves is that they meet at an acceptable price point for a quantity of buyers and sellers. Of note is that if the price goes down, demand goes up, and if the price goes up, demand goes down. This means that by definition, in a free market economy, there are people interested in "x" or "y" products, but not at their current price point. Those are the people that don't affect the bottomline of a company or an artist when they make a copy (you can see it as if they couldn't copy the program, they wouldn't buy it). The ones that do affect a bottomline are the buyers above the price point that instead of legitimely buying will copy the software instead. As long as you can keep those down though, fighting piracy will result in more money lost than gained by the company allowing ressources to it.
Lastly, I will leave you on the wise words of Bill Gates in an interview for the Wall Street Journal (I'm sure you know who he is), who seems to agree with me, at least in part:
"MR. GATES: If we did YouTube, we'd be in a lot of trouble. First of all, people would say, "How do you make money?" Second, they'd say, what about all that copyright violation taking place up there. It's a neat site. I saw a bunch of old Harlem Globetrotters movies up there the other night, it's great.
MS. SWISHER: You watch physics lectures and Harlem Globetrotters?
MR. GATES: This social-networking thing takes you to crazy places.
MS. SWISHER: But those were stolen, correct?
MR. GATES: Stolen's a strong word. It's copyrighted content that the owner wasn't paid for. " | |
| | | | | | eddiek_LV
join:2002-06-23
Las Vegas, NV | Re: *sigh* By your flawsd logic, if I had 10 books to sell, and someone took 9 of them without paying, I didn't lose anything because I never got paid for them in the first place.
What a convenient way to justify stealing. | |
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joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
·AT&T U-Verse
| said by N3OGH :said by nekkidtruth :The sad part is, we're in a no-win situation here. Piracy allegedly (I say allegedly because there are valid reasons for piracy).. And just what valid reason would that be? Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Micro$oft, and I could take or leave their overpriced, unsecured, spywared OS, but just when did stealing become acceptable? If I were to walk into Best Buy, grab a box that had a windows XP upgrade in it (cheapest copy available @ about $99) stuff it under my sweatshirt and get caught trying to take it, I would get locked up. Pirating it is no different. It's stealing. Is Microsoft greedy? Sure they are, everyone who's in business is there to make money. But 2 wrongs don't make a right, and you have no right to someone else's property, intellectual or otherwise, without fair compensation. So imagine if BestBuy shows up at your house, takes an inventory of every item in your house, including serial numbers and then requested a reciept for your purchase -- all in the name of "combating theft" -- that's pretty much what I see Microsoft doing.
If they were unable to create a system which was pirate proof, then tough draw, better luck next time (Vista), its not like they are loosing money on Windows anyways.
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Am Heimcomputer sitz' ich hier, und programmier' die Zukunft mir | |
| | lawrence171
Evilly Yours - Evilness
join:2001-12-24
Canada
·Acanac
| If price point is low enough, I'd buy the legit OS... like I did...
$165 CDN for OEM XP Pro is not THAT bad, considering what Windows XP does for me that the competition cannot.
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What I used to be I no longer am... God, why can't you freeze time for my sake? | |
| | Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | if MS kept the Windows 98 system of allowing one CD for multiple PCs i bet piracy would decline.
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| | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: *sigh* said by Kearnstd :if MS kept the Windows 98 system of allowing one CD for multiple PCs i bet piracy would decline. Spoken like a man who never read a EULA ! | |
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A_Lie
@execulink.com
| Well, yeah, but that's largely because you're redefining piracy. It's how special interest groups have always played it. If you're microsoft, and your agenda is to give yourself more leeway to implement spying and tighter controls on software (your own and others running on your OS), you're going to redefine "fair use" grey areas as forms of piracy in this year's statistics to make it look like there's an increase. If you're an IT rights group, you're going to try to get as many grey area items as you possibly can under the fair use umbrella to show that there really isn't that much piracy at all.
How about giving us regular people some credit here. We can smell the bull crap coming from both sides of the fence. | |
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stomp357
join:2003-04-13
Lake Charles, LA
 ·Suddenlink
| Microsoft doesn't want to stop piracy. They could have eliminated most of it by now by not releasing "corp" versions of the OS with volume licenses. Which means they would have had to "un-ass" a little bit of their billions of profit to pay for a few extra support people to man the phones to help with activation of non-internet business systems.
Instead, they save the cost of support, then charge us outrageous prices for their OS. If they would charge something like $50.00 for the retail upgrade WinXP Home, or Vista Basic, and $75.00 for the full version of the basic OS, then piracy of the OS would be far, & few between. However because they want to bleed you for every penny, they try to make you pay a second, & third time when their half-baked WGA tool says your copy is illegal. I would hope they slowly die under the crush of piracy. | |
| | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: *sigh* said by stomp357 : Microsoft doesn't want to stop piracy. They could have eliminated most of it by now by not releasing "corp" versions of the OS with volume licenses. Which means they would have had to "un-ass" a little bit of their billions of profit to pay for a few extra support people to man the phones to help with activation of non-internet business systems. That isn't the way I thought it happened.
I thought the larger corporations said "hell, no, we won't go" when activation was mentioned to them. So Microsoft figured that maybe they didn't need to do activation after all, for volume licence customers. | |
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tbsteph
join:2002-01-31
Maylene, AL | Ok, I'm game, give me a valid reason to steal software or anything else for that matter? | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Like Lawsuits Scare Microsoft I find it funny that people act like Microsoft is somehow defecating while clothed as a result of these lawsuits. This is the same company that ran out the clock on the US Government and is now giving the EU a run for its money. Does anyone really think some silly little lawsuit is going to stop it?
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Tancredo 2008! | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD
| M...S...Phone...Home... "I am all for Microsoft protecting themselves from piracy. Heck, look at a lot of software makers out there and the software they have that checks for pirated license keys and such. You don't see companies going after them for checking for legit keys. You do see lawsuits being filed against Microsoft though"
I think an OS builder that engineers and gets paid off of the software that runs ALL PC's sans Linux, has more of a responsibilty to provide proper services without the spyware gahhbage than any other software maker...the WGA tool is gay, you and I know that, and shouldnt have been phoning home like a cheap ET ripoff. Least ET had that cool little glowing finger. Maybe if Gates head would glow when XP called him, I'd be cool with it. Otherwise, stay the hell off my line. | |
| | 
Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·AT&T Midwest
 ·Site5.com
·Comcast
| Re: M...S...Phone...Home... said by FiL :"I am all for Microsoft protecting themselves from piracy. Heck, look at a lot of software makers out there and the software they have that checks for pirated license keys and such. You don't see companies going after them for checking for legit keys. You do see lawsuits being filed against Microsoft though" I think an OS builder that engineers and gets paid off of the software that runs ALL PC's sans Linux, has more of a responsibilty to provide proper services without the spyware gahhbage than any other software maker...the WGA tool is gay, you and I know that, and shouldnt have been phoning home like a cheap ET ripoff. Least ET had that cool little glowing finger. Maybe if Gates head would glow when XP called him, I'd be cool with it. Otherwise, stay the hell off my line. Ok, aside from me laughing at the ET reference, I did mention that Microsoft should have made the WGA check better than it is. Which is the same thing you mention. So, in short, you just said the same thing I said. However, that still doesn't address other software makers who have these checks. Where are the lawsuits against them? Wouldn't that be considered spyware? Look at Steam for instance. Steam runs in the taskbar and does check for legit serials when you load the program and want to play online. Where are the Steam lawsuits?
I am just saying these lawsuits against Microsoft are really reaching for something that isn't there. However, at the same time, Microsoft could have done better at developing the WGA tool.
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My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal | |
| GenBlood
join:2005-04-14
Nashua, NH
| The only people that is going to win is the lawyers ... This lawsuit is stupid ...
Microsoft tries to do something better and people complain
and scream. The WGA is going to be fixed and it will
get better. Sueing doesn't make it happen any faster.
Microsoft beat the DOJ ... an this will be no different
Microsoft will win at the end and so do the lawyers...  | |
| | Hellrazor
join:2002-02-02
Abyss
| Re: The only people that is going to win is the lawyers ... WGA has nothing to do with 'better'. Its spyware, not an anti-piracy tool. We spend time installing AV/etc s/w that prevents things from phoning home and MS creates more. Its no different than the BS with reactivation when you upgrade too much. You buy a copy of the s/w to use and they make it inconvenient on legit users. And they practicly give it away where piracy is heavy in the 3rd world countries.
But because Billybob gives his money to help the poor countries its all ok that he screws us. | |
| | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: The only people that is going to win is the lawyers ... said by Hellrazor :WGA has nothing to do with 'better'. Its spyware, not an anti-piracy tool. Actually, it's both - BUT - it's poorly written on both ends.. typical for MS. | |
| | | 
museheart
Premium
join:2002-08-11
Hazel Green, AL
| said by Hellrazor :WGA has nothing to do with 'better'. Its spyware, not an anti-piracy tool. We spend time installing AV/etc s/w that prevents things from phoning home and MS creates more. Its no different than the BS with reactivation when you upgrade too much. You buy a copy of the s/w to use and they make it inconvenient on legit users. And they practicly give it away where piracy is heavy in the 3rd world countries. But because Billybob gives his money to help the poor countries its all ok that he screws us. Sorry, but if the lawyers don't stop them, who will? Hit their pocketbook where it hurts the most.
What I want to know is can I get this software off my system or will Microsoft not let me get updates any longer?
BTW, I changed to Firefox and I love it!
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MuSe
Visit Fighting Back! - Quick links to the best freeware anywhere!
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| | amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| "tries" to do something ...better???
somehow I'm not laughing. "do or do not..." with this sort of thing. I agree w/previous post about having it check, write a reg. key and be done with itself entirely. "trying" to do "better" by changing the thing to ..oh.. only phone home once a couple weeks/month/whatever is about as useless as doing it every day.
like others have said, a legit copy isn't likely to just suddenly be a bootleg the next day/week/month/..even YEAR. There is no good reason they couldn't have done it right the first time and had the stupid thing check once, phone home, write a reg. key and remove itself from wasting space, internet resources, cpu cycles, and ...that wonderfully neutral internet backbone.....
MS didn't beat anything, they might've paid enough people off to keep their traps shut, but last I heard, they were in violation of anti-trust laws for integrating IE into the OS (still there isn't it......).
Granted, these suits do seem like a fly trying to knock out a mountain, but there are some serious issues with the way the software was implemented. Go ahead, ignore the facts, have fun. I hope these suits give them a wake up call to be more up front with people. While the software itself isn't all that bad .."ooh, you're busted, please consider buying the real thing" ... isn't like they're going all out with a "killswitch" here, BUT pieces of it do seem a little... sneaky... we should not underestimate their sneakiness. | |
| | |
jbmcomp
@comcast.net | Re: The only people that is going to win is the lawyers ... amungus: I agree with checking once and not phoning home, but what if someone used a keychanger to change keys for whatever reson to trick it? I think that is what M$ was thinking when they made WGA check every day. | |
|
FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD
2 edits | lmao "Microsoft Beats the Department Of Justice"
That would've been a helluva headline. Though, if read for the first time, I wouldnt know what to think. A good thing? A bad thing? I mean, 2 wrongs cant really battle over for whats right. hehe.
Microsoft was trying to help by using my internet connection everyday to every week to make sure their product on my PC is legit?
To all the people that love throwing out the "getcha tinfoil!" yada yada, you might wanna turn off your PC right now, as not doing so proves your a hypocrite. Is it our fault, paying customers, that Microsoft is PARANOID their OS is being pirated and in turn uses EVERYONE's connection to make sure? (at least those that fell for the ploy?)
MS used my line for their paranoid search, slowed my updates channel by basically forcing me to install the gahhbage WGA, throw in EVEN IF YOUR COPY WAS LEGIT, THERE WAS STILL A CHANCE YOUR COPY OF XP WAS GOING TO BE LOCKED, and its no wonder lotsa folks were given more fuel to their "F MS" fire. Which at this points more like hells inferno. 
rant off. | |
| | chemaupr
join:2005-06-06
Alexandria, VA
| Re: lmao OVER complaining...
At the most the WGA will use a few seconds of your cpu time and internet connectioins. I do not get all this complaining. You agree to the terms of use of their OS. If you do not like it buy a MAC....
Privacy!!! well at this point you need to understand that if YOUR GOVERNMENT does not respect your privacy why will a private coorporation will. | |
| Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| This stuff only hurts their paying customers... Do a search on Google for how to remove the WGA tool. Anyone who is pirating Windows already knows how to get around it; plus most of them probably didn't install it in the first place.
All this did was piss off all the customers who decided to do the right thing and pay for their own copy, even though it priced for corporations and not consumers. The fact that I can build an entire PC for the cost of one license of Win XP professional is a little much I think.. Does M$ really add more value to your PC then Intel/AMD or the motherboard/memory manufacturer? I think not. Monopoly abuse at its finest! | |
| |
See 6 replies to this post | |
FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD
| lol Privacy!!! well at this point you need to understand that if YOUR GOVERNMENT does not respect your privacy why will a private coorporation will.
true indeed. But then again, your telling that to an "informed" individual. Its like saying "your human". Yea, i know.
But still, anything my Kerio finds phoning home raises my suspicions, over reacting or not. Plus, if you have no broadband, like the majority of users in this country, the hell do you do then? yea.................
that few seconds is more like half an hour to a full one. | |
| amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| one more thing... Elf Wizard
Kearnstd
said it best about the license deal. ...and I'll take another opportunity to say it again: do like OSX and sell a multi-user copy to people and "Casual" piracy would wither away so fast it would be like using a fresh bottle of roundup on your lawn.
ESPECIALLY with the 31 flavors of Vista, why the f___ can't they sell a 3-5 PC cd/dvd that one can use for the house/laptop/test/junker/grandma's computer?
I hope MS loses this not for the money, but so they learn a lesson here; To be up front, and to quit all the useless sneakiness which only serves to make paying customers mad and the pirates laugh.
I paid for XP Pro, but I don't care for this extra extra extra...
"oh wait, third time is better!, wait this one's weekly/monthly, oops you were a beta tester, well the pirates caused us to do this, we didn't do anything wrong, it's for your own good, take this update and shove it, no more "security" updates until you install this "critical" one, big brother loves you....."
MISERABLE excuses all of them for a silly little bug that MS wants everyone to have. That's why people are upset, it's just dumb and we know it. Sure, most (legit) users don't get bothered, but just knowing about how it works, what it collects, and how sloppy the whole thing is, is what gets the geeks goat here.
../end ranting | |
| jpark
join:2005-02-05
Jackson, TN
| WGA is wrong. It should be stopped. When I bought my computer 3+ years ago, I paid for a copy of MS Windows XP Professional. I did not buy an operating system with spyware installed. Now Microsoft wants to install spyware on my system. If I refuse to install it (which I do), then I can never get any security updates.
They have devalued the product I purchased from them. They did not get my permission to devalue the product. They did not tell me they were going to install spyware on my system. They have made no assurances, in writing or otherwise, on any uses they may have for any information their spyware gathers.
WGA has the capability to do anything to my system. There is no assurance that some other spyware/virus could not use WGA to steal data and/or damage my system. There is no assurance that Microsoft itself will not decide to steal data and/or damage my system.
I can't imagine why anyone would willingly allow someone else access and control of their computer systems.
Microsoft does not own my computer and has no right mucking around in it. | |
| | jpark
join:2005-02-05
Jackson, TN | Re: WGA is wrong. It should be stopped. Additional thought: I bet Microsoft would not allow any other vendor to put such a program on their corporate systems. | |
| | | 11337845
Live free or die
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Seattle, WA
|  Not such a black and white issue
There is no issue with whether or not Microsoft disclosed that WGA would retrive information and send it to Microsoft. I don't even have to read the EULA to know that they covered their asses in this way. They don't deny that the program does these things in any way.
The real issue is whether or not the law allows Microsoft to require the end-user to install WGA in order to keep updating their OS. An argument could be made that it's Microsoft's duty to make all updates available without any strings attached so long as they keep issuing updates. Requiring the installation of WGA in order to update and patch Windows XP may be a violation of law, and even a violation of the Windows XP EULA. Requiring the installation of WGA also makes the assumption that the user has not paid for their Windows XP license instead of assuming that they are a legitimate customer entitled to updates.
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Have you seen my baseball? | |
| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Not such a black and white issue I think the argument, for many reasonable people, is not what MS is doing. It's HOW they are doing it.. They didn't tell people.. they snuck it in the system, and then problems started to pop up.
We are not the "great experoment" of microsoft. They are a freakin' software maker. TEST THE CRAP before launching it! TEST it and get the bugs out. It's a SIMPLE system and they can't get it right! There is NO excuse for catching even one system. Even when they do catch the systems, they don't have the proper resources in place to support those customers. The only option available is to call in and purchase a new key. They immediately assume you are a pirated copy.
As a paying consumer, if you have a legal copy and somehow that copy became pirated by someone else obtaining the keycode, they punish the owner, not the pirate.
As for handling on information: Again, I have a SERIOUS problem with the easy going kinda attitude that many people have. There are MANY valid reasons why not to trust companies these days. It seems that every week or two there is a story released in the media where large amounts of consumer data has been lost or stolen. There is VERY good reason why companies like MS should NOT have this information. What if that databse contains information that a hacker can use to actually find PCs with certain configurations on IP addresses to make it easier to attack? No one thinks about this stuff until it happens.
I hate say there should be a law.. but there should be when it comes to collecting customer information. There should be CLEAR AND OBVIOUS signs that they intent to collect it and what... it should be in PLAIN ENGLISH, and not hidden in a AUP or TOS agreement. MS could easily do this by, guess what, having automatic updte install a notice that flashes on teh screen telling you that in 30 days, they will be collecting information and what it is.. and NOT a statement that says "We will collect information that is not personally identifiable to you".. Let ME decide if it's information I want out. maybe I don't want my hardware information let out, maybe that helps them sell it for other marketing purposes... it's MY information! PERIOD! There is NOTHING about me that is not mine. That particular notifier that I spoke up should continue to pop up until you have acknowledged it. Remember NT4? The installer wouldn't simply let you hit the F8 key to accept the license.. you had to scroll all the way down first THEN hit F8 to continue.
MS can do all of these things but doens't want to.
Again, it's NOT that I care if they check for pirated coppies... it's HOW they handle it and go about it that urks me. | |
| hurfy
Premium
join:2002-08-06
Spokane, WA
| confused/amused whatever "They distort our antipiracy program…and the harm piracy brings to Microsoft and to customers."
vs
"The press had focused on WGA being an anti-piracy tool it was mostly about protecting the privacy of users against hackers."
(from security bits today)
So MS doesn't really know why we need it or what all it does either i guess
Gee, I can't imagine why they aren't trusted more.......
In reality it goes out and gets food for the puppy in the search window....think of the puppies :O | |
| | 
Jameson
10-8
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Fallbrook, CA
clubs: | Re: confused/amused whatever psh, microsoft deserves it! | |
|
insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| Pointless Suit The same information, and probably a lot more is being transferred when you update windows, and probably also when autoupdate downloads new updates. Microsoft's mistake is that they came out with the WGA stand alone app when they could have just hidden it inside the autoupdates app. Then when it contacted Microsoft a 100 times a day, all they would have to say is that its checking for updates. And they could just have made a balloon popup and say your copy is illegal. | |
| | | itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Camp Hill, PA
| Re: Complainers! quote:
Look at the positive side of Microsoft and see how much they have contributed to tech, it's amazing!
I've been in tech for quite a long time. And I can't think of anything MS contributed to the tech field that is positive. Mostly they steal other people's ideas.... | |
| Stumbles
join:2002-12-17
Port Saint Lucie, FL
| WGA - Time to pay the piper I think it's a great idea Microsoft had and should not kowtow to such a frivolous law suit. It's their product, they can do what they please. They just need to make the language clearer in the EULA is all. If they want WGA to phone home on every boot.... I say go for it.
Frankly I don't see how it's any different than the phone company keeping a log of all your calls.... which they do. I sure don't hear anyone complaining about that.
After all these years when Billy made the statement he was glad for the proliferation of illegal copies of Windows it is now time for all you crack heads to pay for your dope. If no one saw that hook years ago, I have several bridges and some desert beaches for sale. | |
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See 11 replies to this post | |
rhard49
join:2001-04-12
Merrick, NY
1 edit | Microsoft You notice all this started after tools were made availible to remove wga from your system and microsoft countered with threatening to stop your system from working.
The courts need to stop MS from trying to rule the world, and invade peoples privacy. | |
| 
GilbertMark
Premium
join:2001-05-02
Gilbert, AZ
·Cox HSI
| Ha. Exactly the reason I have Windows 3.11 and a computer that can't go online. I have no issues here. When I want to get productive I use my "other" computer.
--
Got a V3 or a V3i? Want to get the most out of them? Check out my sites »hacktheV3.com and »hacktheV3i.com
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KanotixKrazy
@npgco.com | Re: WGA and my pirated xp :) Thrash on Windows Warriors, thrash on. I sit here with my Kanotix wondering how a mind can decay to a point where you would actually pay to get screwed time and time again. Thrash on Windows Masochists, thrash on. | |
| | | jpark
join:2005-02-05
Jackson, TN | Re: WGA and my pirated xp :) Unfortunately, when your work site uses Windows (and you have no say in the matter), then you need to use windows.
I like Linux, and have used it in the past. I would prefer to just use Linux, but that is not currently an option. | |
| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20 | When did you ever pay $500 to $800 for a copy of XP ? | |
| | | claudeo
join:2000-02-23
Redmond, WA
| Re: WGA and my pirated xp :) said by fiberguy :When did you ever pay $500 to $800 for a copy of XP ? Not US $, obviously. | |
| | 
hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12
| said by Teoma :when I bought my computer legit copy of win xp was something like 500-800 $. Bunk. | |
| 
Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26 | You haven't t seen anything ... ... wait till Vista's hi-jinks are exposed. All those delays are more than missed deadlines!
--
"I am not young enough to know everything."
Oscar Wilde | |
| | mikemayo698
join:2003-08-12
Dallas, TX
| Re: You haven't t seen anything ... I'm thinking of getting a pirated copy of XP just to see if I can crack the WGA. Actually, come to think of it, I might be using a pirated copy. Hell, I don't know where I got this OS from. I despise M$. I just think its wrong for the software companies to have to write software for windows forcing us consumers to pay for that POS operating system.
Take for example a game I play. City of Villains. The software was written for Windows. What if I bought the game, payed my $15 bucks a month and had all the necessary hardware to play the game. Whoops, forgot one thing. Windows. I have to shell out an extra $200 bucks just so I can get an OS that will play the game. Now that sucks.
Maybe MAC should make there operating system usable on a PC. Do they? I would like to give that a shot.
Let the flaming begin.
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Microsoft Hit With Second WGA Lawsuit
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