 
sonofjay
Mission Accomplished - Bush May 1, 2003
Premium,MVM
join:2001-05-14
North Attleboro, MA | Not happening on Earthlink Cable Customers Not happening here using either:
rns1.earthlink.net
rns2.earthlink.net | |
|  | 
woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Re: Not happening on Earthlink Cable Customers you don't have use their dns servers do you?, I have been using "treewalk" (»ntcanuck.com/) for a long time and haven't had a problem. JMT
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BlooMe | |
| | | dentman42
join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
| Re: Not happening on Earthlink Cable Customers There's someone out there doing this for URLs without a domain name, though it doesn't seem to happen on all ISPs (I've seen it on Road Runner, Cox, Comcast and BellSouth for sure, and I think I've seen it on SBC/ATT). I first discovered it because of my employer's VPN - people try to access an internal site (no domain name, for example "http://homepage") while not on the VPN and get redirected to "Future home of .homepage information.com". I've tried this on my own machines with no VPN software installed and duplicated the results - basically any URL without a domain gets redirected instead of failing a DNS lookup, and the "information.com" page (IP always in the range 69.x.x.x) will pop up a couple more windows if popups are not blocked, at least one of which usually attempts a drive-by download. I'm really surprised I haven't seen this mentioned here as it started almost a year ago. | |
| | | | dentman42
join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
| Re: Not happening on Earthlink Cable Customers Just did another test. Created an SBC/ATT dialup connection (had DSL for 7 months, first time I've used the dialup!) to verify that I get redirected on this connection. Put "homepage" in the address bar in IE and got the information.com page (no "future home of" blurb this time) - resolved to 69.25.212.180. (First attempt it failed due to an earlier attempt to block the page - I had to rename my hosts file which was redirecting urlforwarding.domainsite.com, searchportal.information.com, and ppc-parked.domainsite.com to localhost). This was as much of the redirect as I have been able to trace. Since it occurs on many ISPs, you guys should be able to duplicate the redirect. | |
| | | 
Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH
| said by woody7  :you don't have use their dns servers do you?, I have been using "treewalk" (» ntcanuck.com/) for a long time and haven't had a problem. Even TreeWalk has to get it's information from somewhere, so what DNS did you configure it to use ?? | |
| | | |
woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA
 ·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Not happening on Earthlink Cable Customers Just check out the sitea and it explains how it works, I'm lame at trying to explain. You download and install their program and run it. but it seems to be working for me better than Elink's.....which I was having issues with.
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BlooMe | |
| | | | |
Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH | Re: Not happening on Earthlink Cable Customers I use TreeWalk myself. I was asking *you* how you configured it. | |
| | | StaticMan
join:2006-06-21
23534 | no you do not have to use their dns servers, there are public servers available, specifically 4.2.2.2 and 4.2.2.1, set them up on your pc and you should be fine. | |
| | GigahertZ420
join:2001-10-02
Fairbanks, AK
| There is something you just don't do as an internet company. Screwing with DNS in any way is one of them. When will companies learn that when you mess with DNS, you get blacklisted.
Same bullcrap was tried by Verisign and they got bitch slapped for it. I know of many people in the IT field that said, "not so fast verisign, we will just blacklist your effing DNS servers"
If you want to try this internet companies, setup an alternate DNS and allow people to manually change their DNS to your "i'm a location bar typing noob" DNS servers. DO NOT MAKE THIS THE DEFAULT!!@! | |
| | | | | 
nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
 ·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Not happening on Earthlink Cable Customers said by VR Laura :Ugh. It's happening to me.  I'm in NYC with Earthlink ADSL via Verizon (768/128). Today, I am very UNHAPPY about this.  Tomorrow, I will be very ANNOYED about this.  I expect by Monday -- if Earthlink is still doing this obscene redirection -- I will be really PISSED about this.  Laura So... Let them know that Tuesday you will have a new ISP.
-tom
--
"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -Louis D Brandeis | |
| | 
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs: | 207.69.188.185, 207.69.188.186, 207.69.188.187
ns1.mindspring.com
ns2.mindspring.com
ns3.mindspring.com
Try those as that is what DSL customers are given. | |
| | 
anonymously
@cox.net | Gee, Cox HSI always sends me to Google. Smart! | |
| | madearthlink
join:2006-09-11
Dayton, OH
| To make matters worse the support has NO Idea how to repair these browsing issues. Please see text of my discussion last night.
Welcome to Earthlink LiveChat. Your chat session will begin shortly.
Not at home and you want to read your email? With EarthLink Web Mail you can check your email from any computer with an internet connection!
'Timothy M. ' says: Thank you for contacting EarthLink LiveChat, how may I help you today?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: many website are not displaying.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: takes me to either google or earlink-help.net
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: this started today...
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I've never seen anything direct me to earthlink
Timothy M. : HI Michael. Let me assist you with this issue.
Timothy M. : I'd like to inform that you get redirected to EarthLink site when entering Incorrect Web address to access a Web site.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: how? I have no earthlink software?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: radioshack.com?
Timothy M. : Are you getting redirected to EarthLink site when entering radioshack.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: yes
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: and abc.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: »earthlink-help.net/?d=error_eart···=abc.com
Timothy M. : Okay, click on the link below and let me know if you able to access the Web site.
Timothy M. : »abc.com/
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: no I'm not able to get to anything - and now it is not redirecting me to anything
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: another window opened on my screen attempting abc.com - are you in my computer?
Timothy M. : No, I do not have Remote sharing rights. I suggest you clear the cache and cookies in your browser and then try accessing Web pages.
Timothy M. : 1. Click on My Computer"
2. Click on Control Panel,
3. Click on "Internet Options"
4. Click on General Tab->There click on "Delet files..", Check the option "Delet all offline content" and click on O.K.
5. Once that is completed Click on delete cookies button, wait for the operation completed and then click on O.K.
Once you done the above steps close all the Browsers except this chat window, re-open a browser, test and let me know the result.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: »www.google.com/search?q=abc.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: did not display abc.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: clicking the link to abc.com from google did not display the site...
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: as I've mentioned - this started today...
Timothy M. : I do understand your concern. Please close all the browser windows open and Re-open a new Internet Explorer window:
Timothy M. : Enter »abc.com in the address bar and hit enter.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: close this window also?
Timothy M. : Then let me know if you able to access the Website.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: nothing displayec
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: "The Page cannot be displayed"
Timothy M. : Please do not close the chat window.
Timothy M. : Please follow the instructions below and Reset Web Settings.
Timothy M. : To Reset Web Settings and file associations:
1. Open My Computer.
2. Open Control Panel.
3. Open Internet Options.
4. Click the Programs tab.
5. Click the Reset Web Settings button at the bottom (uncheck the Reset Homepage box if you want to keep your current Homepage).
6. Click Apply.
7. Click OK.
You may need to Restart the computer to check the new settings.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: ok
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: will not display microsoft.com
Timothy M. : Okay, click on the link below and let me know if you able to access the Microsoft site.
Timothy M. : »www.microsoft.com/
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: what the hell! ANother window just opened and went to Microsoft.com...
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: You said you didn't have remote access?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I'm 10 seconds away from calling the FBI and reporting Earthlink for hacking into customer computers
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I want a manager to call me immediately at 937-626-0216
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Immediately
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: FBI Cincinnati Room 9000 550 Main Street Cincinnati, Ohio 45202-8501 cincinnati.fbi.gov (513) 421-4310
Timothy M. : Okay, I need to transfer you to my Supervisor for further assistance. Please standby while I transfer.
Please wait while I transfer the chat to 'Robert R'.
'Robert R' says: Thank you for contacting EarthLink LiveChat, how may I help you today?
Robert R: Hello, I see you've already been chatting. Please give me a moment so I can read the previous chat and pick up where you left off.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: ok
Robert R: Thank you for being on hold and apologize for the inconvenience caused.
Robert R: The issue you are having is because EarthLink is in the process of releasing a DNS error handling system across our network which will change the experience EarthLink ISP customers have when a non-existent domain is encountered.
Robert R: When a user types in or clicks on a link to a domain name that does not exist, the Barefruit system recognizes the error as it is being returned to the user?s browser and directs the user to a page hosted by Yahoo that attempts to determine the likely domain the user was trying to reach. Yahoo then displays a set of ?did you mean ..? links to likely domains the user was trying to reach alongside suggested search terms based upon Yahoo?s analysis of the domain the user was trying to reach.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: How did new windows open that happened to coincide directly with Timothy's request?
Robert R: When we send any link to customer, it has the option to directly open the Page on customer's computer.
Robert R: This doesn't require the customer to click on the link.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: "IT has the option" - What is "IT"
Robert R: I mean the Web Page sent by Timothy has an option to open the page directly on customer's computer.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: He didn't send me a webpage. He sent me a link over an Instant Messaging service. How do I opt out of your barefruit service? I'm an advanced user and do not need your error handling.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: This may very well result in a criminal probe. You are comprimising my privacy without my prior notification. Furthermore, the quality of your service is being degraded by your own folly.
Robert R: I'm sorry currently there there is no way to Opt Out for Barefruit Service.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: How do you propose the resolve this situation? There are still many websites that do not display?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: 6 months credit would be acceptable.
Robert R: You can send your feedback by going to the link given below:
Robert R: »support.earthlink.net/feedback/m···k/?add=1
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: How do you propose to resolve my browsing errors?
Robert R: The browsing errors will be redirected to the earlink-help.net
Robert R: And currently there is no option to get it changed.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: So your suggesting that these challenges will not go away - you have no resolution - and I simply need accept a certain % of mainstream websites (including important financial site and company email) will no longer be accessible?
Robert R: It will redirect only the pages of non-existent domain.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: radioshack.com , abc.com ,bearingpoint.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: microsoft.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: kroger.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: cbs.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: yahoo.com
Robert R: It seems to be the issue with the Browser settings that is not displaying the pages correctly. That is why we've provided the step for Resetting the Web Settings.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: which I've done
Robert R: Have you rebooted the computer after following the steps?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Don't even attempt to tell me these are my websettings. This started today and we've been gone for a week (i.e. we didn't change anything)
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Yes I've rebooted
Robert R: Are you getting these pages redirected to other web pages on different computer?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: no
Robert R: You mean you are on same computer where you've followed the steps.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: yes
Robert R: Then rebooting the computer should disconnect this chat sessino.
Robert R: *session.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I reset my websetting earlier today and rebooted - I'm a technology consultant at a Tier 1 System Integration Consulting firm
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I know how computers work
Robert R: We are piloting a new product called Desktop Sharing which allows me to send you an automated task to help expedite this chat. It also allows me, with your permission, to take control of your computer via a secure connection to resolve the problem in the event the automated task does not successfully resolve your issue. Every action is automatically logged so you know exactly what changes are made to your computer. Would you like to start a desktop sharing session?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Hell no.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Clearly you have no resolution. Fishing around my computer for a spin won't change a thing. If you don't have any other suggestions clearly you have no resolution.
Robert R: Ok, I'll send you links from my side and let me know if you get the web page displayed correctly or not.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Shoot
Robert R: »yahoo.com/
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Nothing displayed
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: The page cannot be displayed
Robert R: Let me know the Address of Web Page that you see on Address Bar.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: »yahoo.com/
Robert R: That means it is not redirecting to earthLink-help.net page.
Robert R: And you are just getting error as "page cannot be displayed" Am I correct?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: If I type yahoo.com - instead of you opening a window - it directs me to: »earthlink-help.net/?d=error_eart···ahoo.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: All that means is your system can't even distinquish typing a URL versus clicking a link
Robert R: Have you set the DNS Servers?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: no
Robert R: 1. Click on Start -> Settings -> Control Panel -> Network and Dial-Up Connections...alternatively, you can get to the same location via Start -> Connect To -> Show All Connections.
2. Highlight the connection that is having issues.
3. Click on the File Menu -> Choose Properties.
4. Click on the Networking Tab.
5. Highlight "Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)".
6. Click on Properties.
7. Tell me what is listed for the Preferred and Alternate DNS. #PFR#/DUT/Dia/PC/WinXP/CheckDNS - XP View
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: 207.69.188.185
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: 207.69.188.186
Robert R: Let me know how are you connected currently?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: DSL
Robert R: I mean EarthLink DSL or some other network?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: earthlink
Robert R: Ok, please let me know all the web pages that are redirected with complete link in this chat so that I can escalate the issue.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: earthlink_user@earthlink.net: radioshack.com , abc.com ,bearingpoint.com earthlink_user@earthlink.net: microsoft.com earthlink_user@earthlink.net: kroger.com earthlink_user@earthlink.net: cbs.com earthlink_user@earthlink.net: yahoo.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: That should be sample enough to escalate the issue.
Robert R: I don't mean the address of the Web Pages. I mean the Redirected web pages that you got.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: »earthlink-help.net/?d=error_eart···ahoo.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: subsitute any of the above site for www.yahoo.com
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I cannot access yahoo at all
Robert R: »www.yahoo.com/
Robert R: Now check if you are able to access the Yahoo or not.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Attempt Number 3: When you send me a link it displays "The page cannot be displayed"
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: When I type the URL it displays the earthink-help.net URL
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: How's this for broken: The page that displays has the following content: You entered "www.yahoo.com ". Did you mean www.yahoo.com?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: They are the SAME URL!!
Robert R: Ok, I'll escalate the issue.
Robert R: Is there anything else I may assist you with today?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I want the phone number to your supervisor.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I want to speak with someone right now.
Robert R: You can contact our Head Office at 1-404-815-0770 (Timings: 8:30 a.m.?5:30 p.m. ET, Monday?Friday)
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: That's fine. I'd like to speak with your manager now.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Does your silence mean your ignoring me?
Robert R: I'm sorry my manager is not available right now.
Robert R: And there is no direct number to contact him.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: He/she can contact me.
Robert R: You can email him at saurabhpa@corp.earthlink.net
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: How can there not be a direct line? What if you have a family emergency? Do they jump on technical support and hope to get you on chat?
Robert R: We have our own internal system to get contacted and I'm sorry I'll not be able to provide anymore information in this regard.
Robert R: You can email him your feedback.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: You've got to be kidding. I have an urgent webcast at 7:30 am tomorrow and your simply telling me my internet won't work and that's it!!
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Who do I call to cancel my service?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: You don't even have a phone number?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: What company doesn't have a phone number?
Robert R: EarthLink's Technical Support Department can be reached 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at 888-327-8454
Robert R: You can contact above number and ask for the Supervisor.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Do you have any resolution for these errors?
Robert R: The Resetting of Web Settings should resolve the issue. And you can also try typing complete address.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Attempted both of those several times - they did not work. Anything else?
Robert R: As both of these are not working I need to escalate the issue and I'm escalating the issue so that it can be resolved at the earliest.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Your technical support 888 number disconnected me b/c of "Extremely High Call Volume due to system outage"
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Are you aware of a system outage?
Robert R: You can try connecting after some time.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Robert - I need you to tell me in writing you have no other avenue to provide assistance. You don't know what's wrong and do not now how to fix it.
Robert R: There are some issues with Dial-Up/DSL Connections, that is why we have call flow.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Are these issues related to the issues I'm experiencing?
Robert R: Do you have Anti-Virus/Firewall Software installed on computer?
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: No
Robert R: It is not because the issue with what you are experiencing.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I do use Windows Defender
Robert R: We've checked all the possible cause of issue and as you are still finding difficulties I'm escalating the issue to our engineers so that they can work on the issue and get the issue resolved at the earliest.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: Please note the transcript of this message will be displayed in it's entirety as many locations as will accept. I'm going to use what precious spare time I have to inform as many potential customers as possible the ghastly nature of Earthlink service and support. Hopefully the management making these awful decisions will be fired and more customer oriented decision makers will be promoted in their stead. I can only assume Earthlink is getting kickbacks from Yahoo and Barefruit for this spyware service that undoubtedly tracks customer surfing behavior.
Robert R: I really apologize for the inconvenience caused.
earthlink_user@earthlink.net: I have no doubt of your concern. It is always the frontline associate that lives day to day with the customer that feels our pain. It is the upper management that is clearly quite removed from the customer. Hopefully our dialogue will shed light to Earthlink upper management how poorly they've addressed the basics of customer service.
END SESSION
| |
| 
bleearg13
join:2001-03-03
Gaithersburg, MD | Paxfire They are probably using Paxfire, which is a company who claims to have created the SiteFinder service. | |
| | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Who Cares? Really... does it matter if you get a DNS error page or a page from someone else telling you that the server couldn't be found with a few suggestions/ads on it?
Either way, you didn't get where you were going. At least with the former you may have a link right there for you to click on instead of typing it again.
Move on and find some other petty thing to complain about. | |
| | claco
join:2002-09-29
Tallmadge, OH
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Who Cares? Don't think in just web browser terms. If it were just port 80 browser request that were seeing these false positives for non-existent domains, I wouldn't really care.
It matters because it severely screws with email systems. Now, instead of email bouncing because there is no destination domain, or spam checks working because domains don't exist, email servers are led to believe through these 'false positives' that domains exists, and then accept the emails and fill up trying to send them out. Spam filters and lists now have an even worse time of things because EVERY DNS domain request returns a result when they shouldn't.
--
Six of one, 1,426/2,852 dozen of the other. | |
| |
exactly11
@vif.net
 from:
whfsdude
| Exactly, instead of a "This page cannot be displayed" you get a search page which may or may not help YOU. The point is it might help 75% of the less-tech savvy customers, and therefore it's a good idea.
It's not so good when you think of the big ISP getting a few more $$$, and still charging people the extra fees too on our bill.
Is this really something to get upset about??
Here is an Idea for the ISPs! Just like some video sites that show 10 second advert's before the actual video, ISP can start showing webpages with advertisements before directing you to your intended page! What a money maker that would be! They could do it on any page, everytime!!
If HotSpots can redirect you until you pay, they must be able to do this!
(If they do that, then you have a reason to complain, but if you mis-type something, get over it, and correct your spelling.) | |
| | | sirghost
citywide
join:2005-07-23
Phoenix, AZ
·Cox HSI
| Re: Who Cares? The whole point behind this entire arguement is that WE do not like being taken to a place that SHOULD not be done WITHOUT our consent. When i mistype an address I would like to be told that i mistyped it by telling me it does not exisist. Now for those who are not tech savvy, yes it would be nice to be directed to a page that shows you options for what you may have ment to go to. BUT MAKE IT AN OPTION NOT SOMETHING BY DEFAULT. And to you, dns works by saying www.something.com = 1.1.1.1 or some other such ip address. That is how i want it to work unless i tell it to otherwise. That is how it was working 20 years ago, that is how i want it to work now... | |
| | | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Who Cares? Claco gave a good reason for being against it. I personally do not use what he says so I will have to take his word for it. Koodo's for the good response Claco. However, I would still argue it is good and another method for your verification needs to be found or developed.
However, you on the other hand can't just come here and say it is broke because it is not. Not getting a DNS error is not broken. I personally think it is an enhancement to DNS and improves MOST customers experience.
Beyond what the inconvenience that Claco pointed out give a valid reason as to why it is "broke". | |
| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Who Cares? said by Skippy25 :Beyond what the inconvenience that Claco pointed out give a valid reason as to why it is "broke". His entire reason given is "why it is broke"...
You may not care, YOU may see it as an enhancement, but to the way "the internet" works, it's broke. Period.
He gave every good answer necessary. Not to mention, it's not acceptable. | |
| | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
 ·Packet8
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast
| said by Skippy25 :However, you on the other hand can't just come here and say it is broke because it is not. Not getting a DNS error is not broken. I personally think it is an enhancement to DNS and improves MOST customers experience. Actually, exactly because you are NOT getting an error is THE reason it breaks DNS. DNS depends on a clearly specified standard set of requests and responses. When a zone or record does not exist, there is a proscribed response that is suppose to be given (NXDOMAIN, etc.). Whole slews of applications depend on these rules and specs being followed.
Beyond what the inconvenience that Claco pointed out give a valid reason as to why it is "broke". See above. It breaks DNS, whether you know/admin it or not. Trust me, this comes from someone has the professional pleasure of dealing with DNS daily.
And if you don't believe me, ask another system or network administrator worth their salt and they will give you similar reasons.
--
Ann Coulter doesn't know jack about science...
"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong." —Dwight Eisenhower | |
| | | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
August 24th, @08:37PM
| said by Skippy25 :Not getting a DNS error is not broken. Yes, it is. If you want, you can find testimony from the people who designed the protocol - just look for the brouhaha from when Verisign did that.
However, I would still argue it is good and another method for your verification needs to be found or developed. OK, so we should discard twenty-some years of network application protocols just so Earthlink can mistreat a standard network service how they feel like it?
A fairly typical way to write a certain class of code is this: if you get a name lookup error, tell the user, because he made a mistake. If you get a connection timeout or port-not-listening refusal, quietly retry in the background.
So now we're converting user typing errors into hard-to-diagnose failure modes (for non-web, non-mail, non-ftp applications). What used to result in a name lookup failure now turns into a 'valid' IP address that isn't actually running the intended service.
But, hey, if Earthlink can make a profit, what does it matter if we break twenty years of application code?
Do you actually write network application code? If not, I respectfully suggest you're not qualified to judge the effect of this change. | |
| | | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Who Cares? Again I do not see how this "breaks" DNS.
You don't get the page you wanted because it does not exist. Correct me if I am wrong but DNS is to resolve the name you type to an IP address. That address does not exist and DNS responds accordingly. Looks to me like DNS name resolution worked perfectly. Just because another party took that error and turned it into something more meaningful to a vast majority of the internet users makes it no less of a negative DNS response.
Now let's discuss another application attempting to use it and not being able to work properly because it doesn't get what it was programmed to get. DNS did just as it was supposed to do which is to indicate the namespace you are looking for does not exist. Unfortunately the mail application couldn't interpret the response properly while any web browser could. Sounds like a mail application problem to me and the application should be fixed or the administrator of the mail server should change their method for resolving addresses. (like maybe using different DNS servers)
Now lets discuss the... it's always been that way and we can't change it argument. This is called innovation and evolution of technology. So find something else petty to complain about. | |
| | | | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Who Cares? said by Skippy25 :Again I do not see how this "breaks" DNS. »livehost.net/article168.html
See the section on authoritative servers for another reason this breaks DNS... Earthlink is acting as an authoritative server for zones it has no right to claim authority over. A clear violation of the DNS paradigm...
Just because another party took that error and turned it into something more meaningful to a vast majority of the internet users makes it no less of a negative DNS response. Incorrect because in the process of returning an error page, the Earthlink servers are returning false data on zones that don't exist. Once again, a violation of it's authority.
Now let's discuss another application attempting to use it and not being able to work properly because it doesn't get what it was programmed to get. DNS did just as it was supposed to do which is to indicate the namespace you are looking for does not exist. No, because to redirect the user to the cutesy page for a non-existent domain, Earthlink will return an IP address. In DNS terms, when you receive an address for a name, you are essentially saying that the lookup was successful, which in this case is incorrect.
Unfortunately the mail application couldn't interpret the response properly while any web browser could. Sounds like a mail application problem to me and the application should be fixed or the administrator of the mail server should change their method for resolving addresses. (like maybe using different DNS servers) Not no, but hell no... Your solution violates the standards of internet. All that does is shift the responsibility to the people who aren't breaking the rules to accommodate the people who are violating the rules. There is no good reason that I should have to patch all of my mail servers because one rogue company decides it knows better than the majority of the experts in the field.
Now lets discuss the... it's always been that way and we can't change it argument. This is called innovation and evolution of technology. So find something else petty to complain about. This isn't innovation and it isn't the evolution of technology... This is a company going rogue with respect to the rules and standards of the internet. There's a reason those standards and rules are in place.
I'm sorry you view this as a "petty" thing to argue about, but the fact that at least three network/systems admin-type people (including myself) have said that this is wrong indicates that there is something seriously wrong with doing this.
Like I said, any systems/network admin worth his salt isn't going to side with you on this issue for the reasons already outlined.
--
Ann Coulter doesn't know jack about science...
"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong." —Dwight Eisenhower | |
| | | | | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
August 24th, @11:07PM
| said by Skippy25 :Again I do not see how this "breaks" DNS. You don't get the page you wanted because it does not exist. You keep talking about "pages". There's no such thing in DNS.
If I write an application, and the user configures a non-existent name, then I expect gethostbyname() to return "no such name".
I do not expect it to return the address of some random system that does not implement the expected protocol.
These are the rules I've understood to be operative in the last 20 years or so.
Correct me if I am wrong but DNS is to resolve the name you type to an IP address. That address does not exist and DNS responds accordingly. You're wrong.
What is supposed to happen is that DNS should return "no such name".
Instead, it pretends the name exists, and returns the address of some system I've never heard of.
If the application then connects via HTTP, the HTTP server at that address will serve up some sort of web page. Very nice for HTTP.
If the application then connects via SMTP, the mail server will (I presume) say "no such user" at the appropriate juncture in the protocol, and mail sort of works, but differently from what it did before.
Maybe there's a similar thing for the ftp protocol.
But for any other protocol -- let's say the mind file system protocol, since I guarantee no-one has implemented that -- then the "bogus address" will not have a server and cannot deliver an appropriate response. They don't even know the goddamn encoding of a mind file system response, so they can't respond to it.
Looks to me like DNS name resolution worked perfectly. Just because another party took that error and turned it into something more meaningful to a vast majority of the internet users makes it no less of a negative DNS response. No. The correct response for a non-existent name is to return a "nonexistent name" error.
A name-to-address service that lies to its client is broken.
A service definition not only describes what happens in the 'success' case (for DNS, looking up a known name), it describes what happens in 'failure' causes (like looking up a name that is not known). Returning an address for an unknown name is just as much a violation as not returning an address for a known name.
Sounds like a mail application problem to me and the application should be fixed or the administrator of the mail server should change their method for resolving addresses. Yes. Every piece of application code written in the last 20 years should be reworked because some idiot fails to return "unknown name" in response to an unknown name, but instead pretends that the name is valid.
This is precisely the objection.
Now lets discuss the... it's always been that way and we can't change it argument. This is called innovation and evolution of technology. So find something else petty to complain about. No, let's discuss the fact that the internet holds together because the implementors agree to implement standard protocols in a standard way so that systems can interoperate in a predictable way.
Innovators are free to implement any damn service they want, no matter how twisted. What they're not free to do is to implement a variation of DNS that violates the protocol definition, and then call it "DNS" and foist it on people that are connecting to a DNS service.
You've got some balls to say that the people who put the Internet together (which doesn't include me) are afraid of "innovation" !
Since we're fond of car analogies at this site -- why don't you unilaterally start driving on the left-hand side of the road? I know the standard in the USA is to drive on the right, but hell, why not innovate? There might be a few interoperability problems to start with, but everyone else will have to adapt. | |
| | | | | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Who Cares? Wow you sure had a lot to say there, but what is stopping you from redirecting your DNS queries to another server?
Does a redirection even affect applications outside of HTTP request (mail appears to work one user said)? What is stopping innovation from going to only HTTP being affected? Oh that's right.... it's been like that for the 20 years you know of so why move on.
DNS is not perfect, maybe determining the type of name request would be an improvement. | |
| | | | | | | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
August 25th, @09:03AM
| Re: Who Cares? said by Skippy25 :Does a redirection even affect applications outside of HTTP request (mail appears to work one user said)? What is stopping innovation from going to only HTTP being affected? Oh that's right.... it's been like that for the 20 years you know of so why move on. It's DNS. DNS has nothing to do with HTTP. You can't tell from a DNS query that the application intends to talk HTTP. That's the whole problem.
You're framing this as me being 'against innovation', but my argument is that they shouldn't break a basic Internet protocol just to benefit web users. If it could be confined to web users, that would be more-or-less ok. But the protocol does not carry enough information for anyone to make that distinction.
said by Skippy25 :DNS is not perfect, maybe determining the type of name request would be an improvement. Yes, that's the sort of innovation that would actually make some sense.
As it stands, DNS mostly resolves 'network layer' names - you get an IP address (MX would seem to be an exception).
What a service like this needs is to handle 'transport layer' names (mapping to IP address, protocol, port number). Given such an arrangement, you could reply with the address of a web server if it was a name lookup from a web app, or with 'no such name' if it was one of these protocols that I'm more worried about.
The trouble is, that requires client code. As such, it's hard to unilaterally declare you've got a new service. You need to either write code for all clients, or persuade client implementors that you're on to a good thing. (This last is what the Internet RFC mechanism is all about). | |
| | | | | | | 
winky
Turn Left At The Moon
join:2001-02-11
Saint Louis, MO
| Oh Dave, save your breath. This guy probably learned all he needed to know about economics in seventh grade civics class just like he already knows all about the interweb now. 
--
From this point forward Hoedown, from the ballet RODEO, by Aaron Copeland will not be reffered to as "The Beef Song". Thank You | |
| | | | | | tbriansmall
join:2004-08-22
Eureka, CA
| you really ae not listening. DNS does not just resolve names. It also communicates important information to the requesting party if the name does not exist, information that is very specific in what it is supposed to say. When someone arbitrarily changes what that message is, that is, omits it altogether and hijacks you to their site, then the system has broken down, and as has been pointed out, specifically mail servers really really need this specific information in order to operate properly. It's (almost) like if your gas guage suggested you might want to stop at Bk instead of warning you that you were running out of gas. Where would you end up? Mail servers carry an enormous amount of the internet load. You might not care, but a lot of people do. What you are suggesting is that we simply break the system for the dummys, and screw the people who really know what they need to get done. | |
| | | | | | | 
3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| Re: Who Cares? said by tbriansmall :you really are trolling. Snip~ Fixed your quote for you 
I can't really imagine it is anything else.
--
The alphabet is my favourite group of letters in the whole world.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | bruce
join:2003-01-16
Tustin, CA
| I'm not on either earthlink or msn, but windoes does pretty much the same thing. Instead of 404 I often get a page from msn saying it couldn't find what I was looking for and maybe they can help me with their targeted advertisements. It bugs me but personally I would feel a lot more comfortable if I could figure out how to redirect it to google.
(I know, there is no logical reason why MSN's ads are any better or worse than google's. It's just a personal preference that I ought to be able to set.) | |
| | | | | | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Who Cares? said by bruce :I'm not on either earthlink or msn, but windoes does pretty much the same thing. Instead of 404 I often get a page from msn saying it couldn't find what I was looking for and maybe they can help me with their targeted advertisements. That's fine, though. It's done in the web browser. It's under control of the user. It doesn't affect any other application.
It bugs me but personally I would feel a lot more comfortable if I could figure out how to redirect it to google. Why not just turn it off?
Tools, Internet Options, Searching -> "do not search from address bar". | |
| | wolfhouse
join:2001-03-01
Union City, NJ
·Optimum Online
| said by Skippy25 :Really... does it matter if you get a DNS error page or a page from someone else telling you that the server couldn't be found with a few suggestions/ads on it? Either way, you didn't get where you were going. At least with the former you may have a link right there for you to click on instead of typing it again. Move on and find some other petty thing to complain about. Problem is I am used to enter cnn for say www.cnn.com, and Safari does the autocomplete. Now I am redirected to the earthlink customized 'help' page with its 'sponsored links'. THAT pisses me off. Actually that pissed me off until I changed over to 4.2.2.2 for my DNS, as indicated by a previous poster. | |
| claudeo
join:2000-02-23
Redmond, WA
·Speakeasy
| Give them a inch... Once the precedent is established for this, what is preventing them from going further? As another poster pointed out, maybe try to force-feed an ad before giving you the response, or even interpreting certain queries to return the address of a different site that pays the highest kickbacks. So, you might be looking for "something.com" and be given the IP of "something.racket".
This must be nipped in the bud! | |
| | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Give them a inch... What is stopping them from doing that now?
They don't do the above because the above would be stupid and would annoy user's and force them to find another provider.
However, this I personally thinks improves the customer experience and I have no problem with it and I believe those that do have issue with it would be a major minority (but possibly a majority on this site).
I have had this built into my browser (Avant) for the couple years I have been using it and enjoy it every time I mistype something and the link is right there for me to click. There have been times where I was trying to go to one place but mistyped it and found links to better places presented to me.
You call it an annoyance, I call it a feature. | |
| | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
edit:
August 24th, @06:02PM
| Re: Give them a inch... Everyone has that available.. it's called a search engine and you also have the "did you mean X" feature.
You have nothing special.
Let's just say this... enjoy you increased spam and other inherit problems.
When and ISP decides to do this, they are no longer operating under the collective guidelines known as "the internet"... there are common rules that ISPs follow and this isn't one of them.
If they want to do this, Why not just call this Earthlink AOL 2.0 and call it an information service "with a gateway to the internet." because that's what they are acting like. | |
| | | |
Skoobz
@co.uk
| Re: Give them a inch... Ohh and there was me thinking Internet Explorer's Auto Search was a great thing.... this has been happening for years, you just dont know it. Keep up, Wakeup, Stop moaning, see the benefits, you would have had some bloody annoying IE error page, now you get to click something - superb - can it help with my hotmail spam? Im happy with this idea, and from a few mins research, it seems lots of comps have been doing this for some years. Its great, where do I sign up? | |
| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
edit:
August 24th, @09:33PM
| Re: Give them a inch... It's not the 'exact same thing' as what you are getting at. There is a difference between a browser's default search engine and settings being told to search from the browser's address bar than it is a DNS server redirecting traffic based on a 404 or 'No Domain Found' result.
This will also interfere with your desire to use your own search engine's default "search from address bar" feature because the DNS records of Earthlink will always return a result. Seems to me that their defeating the RFC on the internet for how DNS is supposed to function, they are encroaching on the rights of the end user to use their own search engine AND it's taking business away from google, yahoo, msn and other search engines out there. | |
| | | | | dentman42
join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
| IE's auto search thing is a great thing - for malware authors. I've found it to be a major way for people to end up at sites with driveby downloads. Since we set up a group policy to change settings to "do not search from the address bar", our malware infestation rate has dropped dramaticall |
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Earthlink Redirecting Failed DNS Queries?
