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The Well Versus Comcast Spam Filters
Blacklisted over the weekend
The Well (Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link), one of the oldest (1985) virtual communities still on-line, is engaged in a battle with Comcast over the cable company's spam filters, notes the Mercurcy News. Comcast added e-mails from WELL users to the company's blacklist last Sunday, greatly annoying the group's remaining 4,000 users. Comcast says they've had several problems with the group forwarding spam, and at this point needs "some good faith from this company that they are going to try to get better" at filtering out spam.
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Jafo232
You Can't Spell Democrat Without Rat.
Premium Member
join:2002-10-17
Boonville, NY

Jafo232

Premium Member

well..

Oh well...
rfnut
Premium Member
join:2002-04-27
Fisher, IL

rfnut

Premium Member

Re: well..

Deep Subject...
BarneyBadAss
Badasses Fight For Freedom
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
00001

BarneyBadAss

Premium Member

Re: well..

I think every ISP should black list all comcast email. That would let Comcast users only communicate with themselves.. maybe.. unless Comcast blacklists the Comcast servers as well!

That'll do it

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 recommendation

FFH5

Premium Member

Comcast - keep up the good work; The Well - drop dead

Comcast has been doing a great job lately getting rid of SPAM. And if "The Well" is a source of SPAM, then too bad if they get blocked. The fact that they have influential members means nothing to me. Let "The Well" clean up its system if they want off the list.

Blacklists aren't always a good thing, but so far it appears that it is the only thing cutting back on SPAM until the industry can agree on better ways to do it.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 recommendation

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Comcast - keep up the good work; The Well - drop dead

said by FFH5:

Let "The Well" clean up its system if they want off the list.
Not just that, but what self-respecting online community member would use their ISP's email address?
Expand your moderator at work
TheGhost
Premium Member
join:2003-01-03
Lake Forest, IL

TheGhost to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5

Re: Comcast - keep up the good work; The Well - drop dead

Comcast did a GREAT job of blocking my forwarded email from the IEEE. The IEEE does not generate email, it simply provides an "email-for-life" forwarding address. Comcast decided to block all IEEE email from being forwarded to my account - this was ever so helpful.

Actually, I think they are a bunch of morons running this at times. Again, this was not a case of having email generated by the IEEE - just email that was forwarded through their servers.

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium Member
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA

DaneJasper

Premium Member

Re: Comcast - keep up the good work; The Well - drop dead

said by TheGhost:

Comcast did a GREAT job of blocking my forwarded email from the IEEE. The IEEE does not generate email, it simply provides an "email-for-life" forwarding address. Comcast decided to block all IEEE email from being forwarded to my account - this was ever so helpful.
The issue with forwarding is that people tell Comcast "this is spam" via some button in their email interface. Because it was forwarded, Comcast thinks that the IEEE is a spammer. A pile of Comcast people get spam VIA their IEEE address, click the "this is spam" button and away the IEEE goes to a blacklist.

Forwarding just breaks these kind of user interaction blacklist concepts.

-Dane

an-admin
@132.162.x.x

an-admin

Anon

Re: Comcast - keep up the good work; The Well - drop dead

Forwarding does not break intelligent blacklist concepts. The originating sender is discernable from the email headers, as is the last-hop forwarder. Comcast (and AOL for that matter) do not choose to put any effort into making the distinction. I know it's cost them customers 'round here.

sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ

sporkme

MVM

Short on facts...

The article doesn't really describe what's going on. Is this really spam (ie: unsolicited adverstisements) or what? The mysterious use of the word "forwarding" makes me wonder if Well users are forwarding Spam *from* Comcast to Comcast's abuse desk. Or is Comcast suggesting Well users are manually forwarding random spam that they receive to random users at Comcast?

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

1 edit

Transmaster

Member

Re: Short on facts...

Wow there is a blast from the past. The Well started as a dialup forum, and back then a cool place. I didn't know they where still around. I don't know about the present but back then this was the computer home of a bunch of New Age musicians, Micheal Stearns, Steve Roach, and I seem to recall the Grateful Dead where there as well. this was a great place in those pre-internet times.

CableTool
Poorly Representing MYSELF.
Premium Member
join:2004-11-12

CableTool to sporkme

Premium Member

to sporkme
said by sporkme:

.....The mysterious use of the word "forwarding" makes me wonder if Well users are forwarding Spam *from* Comcast to Comcast's abuse desk......
That MIGHT be one of the WORST "maybes" Ive ever read in my entire life.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Transmaster

Member

Re: Short on facts...

said by CableTool:
said by sporkme:

.....The mysterious use of the word "forwarding" makes me wonder if Well users are forwarding Spam *from* Comcast to Comcast's abuse desk......
That MIGHT be one of the WORST "maybes" Ive ever read in my entire life.
You got that right The Well is a 25+ year old bastion of left wing discourse they hate spam with a passion. In fact if My memory serves me right the first bit of spam in history was on the Well. It was, I think, some San Fransisco Lawyer looking for clients. He was all but burnt at the stake.

GlennLouEarl
3 brothers, 1 gone
Premium Member
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA

GlennLouEarl to sporkme

Premium Member

to sporkme
Given the statements in the article, I would presume that one or more WELL users are auto-forwarding mail for their WELL accout to their Comcast account, just as can be done within many email accounts, e.g. Gmail. But, as you say, not enough specificity.

abhandari
join:2000-11-13
Concord, CA

abhandari

Member

Always worry when an ISPs filters seem to work *too well*

In reality, what has happened here is that Comcast's spam group has decided to use very agressive filtering based on customer classification of e-mails and other automatic method's.

My company provides connectivity to a prominent (celebrity sponsored & endorsed, etc.) non-profit (non-political) entity whose mail server is being blocked by Comcast. The only mail (aside from the possibility of personal communications) sent from their server to Comcast are monthly newsletters.

The reply from Comcast support was that too many members had classified messages from this group as spam (probably the same old story of people using blacklists instead of opt-outs to unsubscribe from a list) so they have permanently blocked the whole mail server.

We can't get them to send us any samples of the so-called spam, and we can't get them to remove the listing (at least so far).

So, always be suspicious of spam filters that seem to be doing too good of a job on your inbox. You never know what you're really missing.

MrBradTX
join:2001-05-23
Carrollton, TX

MrBradTX

Member

Re: Always worry when an ISPs filters seem to work *too well*

said by abhandari:

The reply from Comcast support was that too many members had classified messages from this group as spam (probably the same old story of people using blacklists instead of opt-outs to unsubscribe from a list) so they have permanently blocked the whole mail server.
On the one hand, I'm pleased that Comcast pays attention to its customers opinions of what is SPAM and what is not.

On the other hand, this is an example of how a handful of people CAN make a difference, but perhaps shouldn't.

The happy middle ground would be for Comcast and other ISPs to use human eyeballs instead of heuristic software to examine the messages flagged as SPAM by their customers. But that would likely mean exponential payroll growth in the SPAM department and higher HSI bills for customers.

Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26

Fatal Vector

Member

Re: Always worry when an ISPs filters seem to work *too well*



You'd think that, as big as they are and, for what you're paying them for HSI they could afford a few eyeballs ay no extra charge. Provide some value for what they get paid.

pog4
Premium Member
join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI

pog4 to MrBradTX

Premium Member

to MrBradTX
said by MrBradTX:

... On the one hand, I'm pleased that Comcast pays attention to its customers opinions of what is SPAM and what is not.

On the other hand, this is an example of how a handful of people CAN make a difference, but perhaps shouldn't.

The happy middle ground would be for Comcast and other ISPs to use human eyeballs instead of heuristic software to examine the messages flagged as SPAM by their customers. But that would likely mean exponential payroll growth in the SPAM department and higher HSI bills for customers.
In my experience, the "average" person really does not know what spam is... they tend to think it's any email they don't want.

I know people who simply select their unwanted messages in gmail and report them all as spam. I've tried explaining things ("how about just deleting the message from your cousin instead of reporting her for spam?") but people are a lot more cavalier about "computers" and are far less teachable than even a few years ago.

You are exactly right that spam reports should not be taken at face value...

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
Premium Member
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

sivran to abhandari

Premium Member

to abhandari
said by abhandari:

The reply from Comcast support was that too many members had classified messages from this group as spam (probably the same old story of people using blacklists instead of opt-outs to unsubscribe from a list)
I don't blame them (the users, that is). Opt-outs simply aren't.

abhandari
join:2000-11-13
Concord, CA

abhandari

Member

Re: Always worry when an ISPs filters seem to work *too well*

While your statement is certainly true for 99.9% of spam, there are plenty of legitimate organizations that send out newsletters, announcements, etc to people who have opted-in or have a relationship with the organization.

Most of these organizations are extremely careful about honoring removal requests, precisely because of blacklisting policies.

These are the people who get completely trounced when their organization's e-mail can no longer be delivered to a major provider. In turn, that affects their ability to do the good work that they do and help the people that they help.

All because someone would rather solve the issue of an unwanted newsletter by using one-click blacklisting instead of two clicks and typing "remove".

Lehoczky
@comcast.net

Lehoczky to abhandari

Anon

to abhandari
While you fight with them, what are you doing about email?

ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

1 edit

ropeguru

Premium Member

Looks like they are doing this a lot now...

There are multiple instances in the Comcast HSI forum of this.

»[E-mail] The new comcast blacklist everybody software!

»[E-mail] Comcast Bans Namezero!

»[E-mail] Comcast blocks email forwarded from MyDomain.com domain

Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium Member
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL

Michieru2

Premium Member

!

Why does comcast have to be the moral police here? What's the point of a spam department If they block the whole user database.

I think the ISP should offer you the option of creating your own blacklist. If you are no WELL customer or never get any emails from a user there but the server is spamming you, then you can simply add that.

You can also create an approval list of what emails can come from that server for like if I want to receive email from bob, but no other WELL user I simply block all incoming mail from WELL with the exception if it comes from bob@well.com

Not only have I found this effective but it only takes a minute of your time. I usually have it set to deliver the message anyway but into a spam folder or I can have the option of simply telling the server to erase it.

The only thing I would like to see is ISP's pressuring other ISP's for insecure smtp servers and if they refuse to comply in a month every other ISP blocks there servers.

Then that way they have no other choice to comply because there customers would be biting there heads off because any email they send is simply being rejected.

Same event should go for customers, if ISP A reports to ISP B that there customers smtp server is a source of spam. They must have at least 7 days to comply of either removal of the smtp server or have it properly configured and patched.

A good name for this could probably be (Spam Alliance Network) With a nice motto of "We don't need your stinkin spam!"

dscline
join:2001-09-01
Atlanta, GA

dscline

Member

Comcast is simply clueless about spam

I started getting a ton of spam the instant they took over the AT&T cable system in my area. To email addresses I have never given out. I have always assumed the reason to be that comcast is a common enough domain that many spammers use dictionary attacks for email addresses. I solved this by getting my own private domain name, and using a forwarder to get the email to my comcast account. Anything that is not addressed to my private domain gets filtered out. Problem solved. At least until they started this recent blacklist campaign, and started blacklisting my forwarder, and therefore keeping me from getting legitimate mail (while, ironically, I still get spam directly to my comcast address).

There is a very simple way they could make this better: don't block all mail from these servers they believe to be sources of spam, treat them like junkmail just like the current spam filter they have. Then each user has the option to turn it on or off, or put it in a special folder to see if any of it is actually legitimate.

It really pisses me off that I'm paying for a full Comcast account, and THEY are choosing who can send me mail. They recognized they had a problem, but their "solution" is worse than the problem.

c0de8
join:2004-10-14
Richmond, VA

c0de8

Member

duh, its comcast!

comcast blocks a lot of email.
but seriously why are you using comcast email? POP3 is hardly enough these days if you ask me, espically because you can only access it from your home client. Hotmail, Yahoo, and GMail are so popular because of the easy of use, and tons of great features that are user controlled, not to mention the anywhere access. and what happens when these users finally get fed up with comcast's poor service and decied to switch to a different ISP, no more email account...

get with the program, get GMail!

MrBradTX
join:2001-05-23
Carrollton, TX

MrBradTX

Member

Re: duh, its comcast!

said by c0de8:

but seriously why are you using comcast email? POP3 is hardly enough these days if you ask me, espically because you can only access it from your home client.
Seriously:
A. Comcast has a web mail client too;
2. POP3 gives you a local copy of mail that's independent of the server, or even connectivity;
Pi. I'm paying for an ISP subscription that includes email, so I use it.

I do plan to buy an email hosting service soon, but the reasons have zero to do with Comcast's SPAM policies, and everything to do with having personal-domain-specific mail that's immune from corporate ISP merger decisions.

c0de8
join:2004-10-14
Richmond, VA

c0de8

Member

Re: duh, its comcast!

but you dont have to pay for good email was my point. and you certianly should not have email blocked when you are paying for it.

PA23
join:2001-12-12
East Hanover, NJ

PA23

Member

Letter (email?) writing campain?

Why not start sending messages to the powers that be at Comcrap Comcast?

I'd say start at the top!

Brian Roberts, President
Comcast Corporate Office
1500 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA 19102
215-981-8497
brian_roberts@comcast.com

A Well Member
@comcast.net

A Well Member

Anon

Re: Letter (email?) writing campain?

FWIW, Well management and Comcast people met and worked out an agreement. From what the Well rep said, 20 people were forwarding their email to Comcast with lots of spam then marking the mail as spam @Comcast. Too much marked email caused Comcast to block the Well.

After the meeting, Well support started contacting those 20 to get them to change from .forward to using procmail to forward but to forward in a way that sends spam into the Comcast spam mailbox.

It appears now that the issue really was Comcast making it very hard to contact them and their 'you must be evil' attitude. Once that was overcome, the technical people worked out a plan pretty easily.

Another Well Member

Anon

Re: Letter (email?) writing campain?

Actually, the change is from using .forward to forward the incoming mail to the member's comcast account before the WELL's antispam stuff gets to it, to using procmail to filter the mail before it's forwarded.

Comcast made this plenty difficult and only responded to calls for help after articles appeared in the media. Individual Comcast customers who called for help got none from Comcast. Just those annoying automated replies.

Comcast needs to use antispam tools that do more than just look at the last server in the headers. Users shouldn't have to wait for media attention embarrasses their provider.

FACT CHECKER
@comcast.net

FACT CHECKER

Anon

Please phone the well and get more facts

this recap eliminates the important details! those of us who are on whole earth 'lectronic link have been watching this cafefully.

the well does NOT harbor spammers. the entire episide was based on a few dozen people who have accounts on both the well and comcast, and who chose to forward mail over to handle it there. there was never any illicit spamming from or by use of the well.

there is useful background info here
»yro.slashdot.org/comment ··· 16025867
and here
»www.smartmobs.com/archiv ··· pam.html

oh, and comcast has resolved things with the well. pity it took media attention to do it, but they talked and realized the confusion, and offered to make mutual improvements. all is fixed now. do a little reporting and call them tuesday to get it directly from people who know the details.

robert mercey
mutual customer of comcast and the well