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story category Time Warner : You Get 10Mbps if There's Competition
10Mbps tiers spring up to counter Fios threat
(old news - 11:09AM Sunday Oct 01 2006)
tags: competition · bandwidth · cable
Customers are discussing Time Warner Cable's scattered deployment of 7Mbps and 10Mbps tiers to regions where competition warrants. The parts of Texas, New York and Southern California that are seeing early Fios deployment have been bumped to 10Mbps. Some areas get 7Mbps, some areas get 5Mbps. There's rumblings in the thread that Frontier in Rochester, NY (one profitable market Verizon doesn't own in NY State) is considering offering 8Mbps DSL.

Related:
  1. RCN Hints At DOCSIS 3.0 Arrival
  2. Shaw Sues Novus For Defamation
  3. Pittsburgh, Verizon Haggling Over FiOS
  4. Comcast DOCSIS 3.0 Hits Denver
  5. What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
  6. Verizon Won't 'Slavishly Satisfy' You With 100 Mbps FiOS
  7. WSJ Thinks Verizon Could Buy DirecTV
  8. Insight To Launch 30 Mbps Service
Forums » Time Warner : You Get 10Mbps if There's Competition
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SamsungSucks
Infinita Tristeza
Premium
join:2004-12-31
Japan Inc.

...

Capitalism at its best!

jazzy_

join:2004-01-27
Charleston, SC

Re: ...

perfect example of why these huge mergers shouldn't be allowed to go through.

kamm

join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·T-Mobile US

Re: ...

said by jazzy_ See Profile :

perfect example of why these huge mergers shouldn't be allowed to go through.
Exactly.

rit56

join:2000-12-01
New York, NY

Re: ...

where's tkjunkmail on this one?

DonChino

join:2005-01-18
Kearny, NJ

Re: ...

Exactly...
I am surprised TKJunkmail is not here somehow defending that it is only RIGHT to offer competition when there is competition to be MADE... Profits over Consumers... Blah, blah, blah...


insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

No perfect example of the monopoly power of these companies. They charge higher rates in markets when they are the monopoly. People need to get off microsoft's back and worry about the true monopolies, the companies that control the physical access to your house.

BIGMIKE
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Westminster, CA
FIOS is still so much faster.

SquareSlinky
Premium
join:2004-05-25
Tampa, FL

Re: ...

BrightHouse in Tampa was a perfect example of this. Even with competition in town the company get see beyond its own arrogance.

FIOS/FIOS TV in my house.

kfsutops
Premium
join:2002-08-19
Brandon, FL
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: ...

said by SquareSlinky See Profile :

BrightHouse in Tampa was a perfect example of this. Even with competition in town the company get see beyond its own arrogance.

FIOS/FIOS TV in my house.
Yeap. the FIOS is an extremely better product. Not just because of their internet offering.

Have you seen the channels they get? WOW. Especially the HD lineup. We got a letter from Brighthouse saying how they were not going to raise prices this year. What about just providing the same channels and get rid of all of the stupid analog scrappy ass channels? Make them all digital.
--
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots"
rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
·Charter Pipeline


2 edits
Just like we get net neutrality...if there's competition?

I'm not convinced that this is capitalism at its best. The laws in the US have been refined to recognize capitalism in a competitive environment and unchecked capitalism due to a monopoly/oligopoly. TW's actions are driven by its HSI monopoly status rather than an honest plan to continually improve its service.

I've often wondered what would happen if the last mile fiber was owned by local governments and ISPs competed at concentrators for each household's services.

Since I know the last sentence will never happen, I can only hope that coming and future wireless technologies will hold enough promise to provide multiple competitors to fiber and cable deployments.

SamsungSucks
Infinita Tristeza
Premium
join:2004-12-31
Japan Inc.

Re: Just like we get net neutrality...

said by rradina See Profile :

TW's actions are driven by its HSI monopoly status rather than an honest plan to continually improve its service.
My point exactly!
older dog
Premium
join:2005-06-09
Norwich, NY

Re: Just like we get net neutrality...

said by SamsungSucks See Profile :

said by rradina See Profile :

TW's actions are driven by its HSI monopoly status rather than an honest plan to continually improve its service.
My point exactly!
Seems to be the common theme among providers.

»FrontierNet Internet Access

A link to the frontier forums since it was mentioned in the article.

NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX

I agree. I would support a complete AT&T landline remerge under the condition that they are strictly regulated by the government on capacity they are to support to the consumers homes. They get a portion of taxes and charge the rest to those competing to supply services to those pipes.

All this were much larger than x country is a big steaming pile of BS. Fiber has long ago surpassed those problems and just look at Verizon's report. For every 9 callouts for copper plant there is 1 callout for fiber plant. That's 1/10th the cost of maintenance. They dont have to worry about customers having packet loss issues due to waterlogged junctions or anything of the sort.

If the government would just let it be built and supported with proper regulation other companies would support it. And think of the jobs that could create.
chemaupr

join:2005-06-06
Alexandria, VA
We can brag about having a FREE and OPEN Market. However, what good is a market with a single option. Comcast and other cable providers give you the idea. No competition, no service upgrade unless we said so.
Vonage User5

join:2004-05-15
Hillsborough, NC

Ive just tried the RR lite. Ive had it now for about a month.
The speeds are 700k/170k up, i use Viatalk 1 line at home,(dumped vonage), and play cs online.
I can not tell a differance in the lite and when i had the regular 5meg/500k other than the price going from 45 to 25 a month. I cant get DSL so thats out of the question.
My phone call quality is the same as it was and i cannot tell a deifference when im using firefox. A friend of mine who has DSL with a 3meg/500k connection has a higher ping than me on the counterstrike servers we get on, go figure.
Hands down im completely satisfied with it.
Considering i use voice over ip as well as being on the net alot i figured i would pass it along to some who thinks its just not enough bandwidth. If you rarely download anything like myself, please give it a shot.
Its a shame twc cant just lower there prices, but considering that theyre a monopoly (in my area) i dont expect them to.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
Cox cable is the same. they get 15000/2048 in fios areas and in non fios areas its 9000/1024.
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth

gJGag

@68.48.x.x
Capitalism is why this world is the way it is today. Capitalism is terrible!!!

John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

Re: ...

said by gJGag :

Capitalism is why this world is the way it is today. Capitalism is terrible!!!
And your suggestion is....??
--
A is A

MarkyD
Premium
join:2002-08-20
Oklahoma City, OK
clubs:
·Cox HSI

=\

Even 10/1 is pathetic compared to what Verizon is offering. Not really surprising for Road Runner, though. I have never experienced such horrible service from ANY company until moving to El Paso, where TWC is the incumbent cable provider.
--
-Put this in your profile if you know someone who is fighting, has survived, or died from ninja attacks.
radougherty

join:1999-07-23
Austin, TX

Guess they're not worried about AT&T Lightspeed

So upgraded only happen in FIOS area, I think that speaks volumns about AT&T's offering being a so what as far as cable companies are concerned. Very limited HD offerings and nothing special on the internet speed front.

Rob A
Same Old Jets
Premium
join:2005-01-17
Pompton Plains, NJ

Not surprising

All companies are doing this.

snipper_cr

join:2002-01-22
Wheaton, IL
clubs:

Re: Not surprising

I thought that was the norm too. You get faster speeds only if there is competition in the area. Comcast did it, and now TW is doing it. It only makes sense. Why would a company want to offer services that cost THEM more when you have no other real alternative?
--
Serenity Day - June 23rd 2006. You Can't Stop the Signal

Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
·Earthlink Cable Mo..

said by Rob A See Profile :

All companies are doing this.
It's completely normal but when it comes to internet speeds and service, it seems NO ONE will ever be happy.

I mean, when a gas station lowers their price, the neighboring gas station does too... It's called competition and when it exists, it normally benefits the consumer. When it doesn't exist, you live with it. You can't blame ANY cable company that they're the only provider in town. They didn't do anything to create this. Other cablecos are free to come into a city and build an infrastructure but they choose not to, just like most of us buy gas at the station that's $.05/gallon cheaper.

Ask people in smaller towns how much a DVD rental at Blockbuster costs when BB is the *only* rental place in town. Then ask how much BB charges in a town where there's many options. Similarities will be noted...

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast

Re: Not surprising

I'd be happy, if a company like Paxio would hit my town... buy whatever SYMMETRICAL speed you wish. Upto 1gbps(both ways).

Someone with some big bucks needs to get behind these smaller kickass ISPs and start deploying some reality!
Sure makes Verizon look like a pile of dog doo doo...

SureWest at 10/10 or 20/20 would do, ya know?
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera

major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:

said by Hall See Profile :

You can't blame ANY cable company that they're the only provider in town.
At least not directly if you don't count buying off pet politicians and corporate stooges. Blame the Kevin Martin and the FCC for creating duopolies in any given market.

In Kevin Martin’s July 2005 Wall Street Journal op-ed, he tried to portray the U.S. broadband market
as healthy: “Broadband platforms are engaged in fierce competition,” he wrote. “In addition to telephone and cable providers, broadband access is increasingly being delivered to consumers via satellite, wireless, and fiber or powerline providers. ... This competition is leading to broadband providers offering customers faster and faster connections at lower and lower prices.” Martin’s claims about “fierce competition” were wrong then, and the picture is even worse a year later. The share of residential lines controlled by cable and DSL companies has increased over the past several years, and these two platforms now dominate 98 percent of the market (see Figure 13). According to FCC data, cable modem continues to be the dominant platform, accounting for 58 percent of all residential and small business lines.

[Source: Broadband Reality Check, pg. 19.]

said by Hall See Profile :

They didn't do anything to create this. Other cablecos are free to come into a city and build an infrastructure but they choose not to...

Except pay off/know the right telco/cable-friendly corporate stooges in Congre$$ and the FCC C.

Consumers across the nation have relatively little choice in broadband services. The top two
cable companies and the top two DSL companies together controlled over half of the entire U.S. broadband market (see Figure 14). The top 10 broadband providers, each a regional monopoly in cable or DSL, made up over 83 percent of the broadband market. The U.S. broadband market is essentially a series of regional duopolies. The largest non-incumbent provider is Sprint, accounting for less than 2 percent of the entire market.

[Source: Broadband Reality Check, pg. 19.]
--
Net Neutrality Now

Deviant Conservative Males


Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH

Re: Not surprising

No one in Congress or the FCC or any other gov't agency will try and stop someone from starting up their own cable provider and offering their services.

major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:

Re: Not surprising

said by Hall See Profile :

No one in Congress or the FCC or any other gov't agency will try and stop someone from starting up their own cable provider and offering their services.
That's why there is such a vast # of DSL/Cable cos. to choose from in any given market. The competition is just staggering.

Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
·Earthlink Cable Mo..

Re: Not surprising

said by major marco See Profile :

That's why there is such a vast # of DSL/Cable cos. to choose from in any given market. The competition is just staggering.
Building a cable plant costs MILLIONS of dollars. Doing so isn't so much an investment as it is a *risk*. Just because "you build it", doesn't mean "they will come". Other cable companies make the business decision NOT to compete.
rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
·Charter Pipeline

Many municipalities have tried to build out local fiber but guess who spends millions lobbying against it?

The problem isn't whether or not someone would want to come in and compete, the problem is that when threatened, the incumbent does everything but compete to prevent a competitor from surviving. I consulted for Brooks Fiber Properties in the middle 90s and remember how difficult it was for the Competitive Local Exchange Carriers (CLECs) to get cooperation from the Incumbent Local Exchange Carriers (ILECs). It was horrible. We talked endlessly about making things smoother with electronic interfaces but it seemed impossible to get the ILEC and all CLECs to agree and actually do something. Brooks was purchased by Worldcomm (and we all know what happened to that...) so I didn't stick around long enough to determine whether things eventually improved. Since most of the CLEC start-ups seemed to have vanished, I would assume the ILEC stall tactics worked. It seems the dominant voice competition is now VOIP and cable rather than the FCC's wholesale-copper-purchasing CLEC plans.

Capitalism doesn't work when there's little or no competition. It turns good companies into lethargic, bloated, complacent entities who don't care about improving service or controlling costs. Arguably, that's why Standard Oil and AT&T were divested. It's also why IBM was and Microsoft is heavily scrutinized.

For some reason the FCC believes the ILEC and cable companies represent competition and is leaning toward fewer regulations. I think this is a mistake and, in my opinion, this thread proves it. In some areas they do appear to be competing. In other areas each is leveraging their monopoly positions to support the competitive areas.

NyQuil Kid
8f The Nyquil Kid

join:2001-01-06
Brick, NJ
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL

Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

It's amazing how people will, from one corner of their mouth, bemoan the lack of municipal-operated internet service and from the other corner complain about the bureaucracy under which such municipal entities operate. Are people that completely obtuse as to believe muni-operated internet service will be any different from other muni oriented services (pot-holes in roads, getting paperwork completed, taxes....)?

The conclusion that should be drawn from this is that most people haven't the slightest concept of what competition means, don't think beyond their immediate needs and demonstrate such immense ignorance of reality one wonders how they manage to survive from day to day. (My guess is they have signs on their wall stating "First Pants, Then Shoes" - that way, they know how to dress in the morning).

The equation is simple - free markets, _OVER TIME_, produce superior results. State enterprises, on the whole, do not. It is not an overnight process, and it is not a simple matter of "add water and mix" - brace yourselves, but change _TAKES TIME_ - learn to suck it up and deal with it.

[8F] The NyQuil Kid
--
[8F] The NyQuil Kid comes into town not looking for trouble...n00bz gang up, but he ain't seein' double,...pulls and draws, his deagles two...n00bz litter the ground you know it's true.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

Re: Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

said by NyQuil Kid See Profile :

...
The equation is simple - free markets, _OVER TIME_, produce superior results. State enterprises, on the whole, do not. It is not an overnight process, and it is not a simple matter of "add water and mix" - brace yourselves, but change _TAKES TIME_ - learn to suck it up and deal with it.

[8F] The NyQuil Kid
How much _TIME_ are you willing to give this market? Competition was supposed to occur when the 1996 telecom act was passed. There was some effort at competition, but it was easily beaten back by the incumbents and aided and abetted by inadequate enforcement of the 1996 act provisions.

So it's been 10 years since that was supposed to bring competition; again, I ask, how much _TIME_ should we allow for competition to develop? Back in 1996 the U.S. was ranked #1 for broadband; now we are ranked anywhere from 12th to 16th.

How much _TIME_ should pass and how far will the U.S. fall behind the rest of the industrialized world, before our "free market" in broadband is judged to have failed the U.S. consumer?

NyQuil Kid
8f The Nyquil Kid

join:2001-01-06
Brick, NJ
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL


3 edits

Re: Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

Those statistics measuring BB are usually a bunch of BS - they usually use some inadequate common denominator which skews the results - and besides, anyone with a three digit IQ knows you can take the same raw data and produce any result you wish, depending on the statistical model being used. Comparing South Korea with the US isn't a fair comparison, for the simple reason that South Korea isn't as large in land area or population. Plus, I doubt the rural areas of South Korea possess 10+Mb connections, just as the rural US hasn't a large BB presence.

Time is relative, so I can only provide my experience - at little as ten years ago, 28.8 modems were all the rage. Now, many (not all, but many) have access to speeds _MUCH_ greater than 28.8 modems - and the next ten years promises to be better with the rollout of FiOS. Ten years is nothing - a mere blink of time. Technological adoption rates aren't linear; most times, the adoption time is sped up from each period of immense technological change, but that still doesn't mean it's overnight.

Too many people expect changes to occur yesterday - such expectations are idiotic. I am willing to give the market the benefit of the doubt because there will always be a better "mousetrap" somewhere down the line - if you are looking to blame anyone for what you perceive as slow adoption of new technologies, feel free to blame the government (federal or otherwise) - the precise core of my argument in my previous post. Companies are forced to operate under regulatory constraints - some good, but mostly burdensome.

It's incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest to merely complain about such matters and fail to present any alternatives, or to actually do something about it (such as start your own company). Finally, your post gives the impression that if you don't get satisfaction on your BB desires, the world will be a dire place - seriously, I suspect you'll survive without 100Mbit connections for awhile

[8F] The NyQuil Kid
--
[8F] The NyQuil Kid comes into town not looking for trouble...
n00bz gang up, but he ain't seein' double,...
pulls and draws, his deagles two...
n00bz litter the ground you know it's true.
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

Re: Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

said by NyQuil Kid See Profile :

Plus, I doubt the rural areas of South Korea possess 10+Mb connections, just as the rural US hasn't a large BB presence.
'haven't spent much time in Korea, have you?

Yes, rural Koreans have broadband. They use it like anyone else: to access information and entertainment, and as a vital part of their business (in their case to market and sell agricultural products).

These Koreans have broadband because their government considers it a competititive advantage for their country for everyone to have it, and went about setting up the required public and private initiatives to make it happen.

As opposed to here. A strictly laissez faire approach is being taken, primarily because it most benefits those who give the biggest legal bribes (oops, in the U.S. they are called "campaign contributions") to politicians. Then you have ignorant ideologues who never took an economics class (or who conveniently forget the day they taught the subject of "market failure"), make silly statements unsupported by market theory, like "the free market ALWAYS produces the best results, over time".

Yea right. The same type that want to "privatize" social security. I guess they forget, or don't care, that pre-1930 when people "owned their own retirement", many of them died due to malnutrion, due to bad luck or bad choices.

NyQuil Kid
8f The Nyquil Kid

join:2001-01-06
Brick, NJ
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL


4 edits

Re: Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

Pre-1930 - just in case you weren't aware, it's 2006. The world economy today isn't anything like the early twentieth century. If that time period serves as your argumentative justification, you have a great deal to learn about history and economics. Unlike that time period, today there are multiple points of regional economic prowess (China, India, Eastern Europe) - those countries are hungry for growth and aren't blind to the notion that the world of 2006 is fundamentally different from the early 20th century. Want to know why the American car industry is failing? It's because the management and the UAW still think it's 1950, where the US economy was not just dominant economy, it was the only real industrial base that survived WWII. It's not because the North American market is unprofitable in general because Toyota, Honda and other are doing quite well. The American auto makers are saddled with legacy costs from the mid-20th century. Those costs were justifiable when the US was the sole dominant economy, but now are just an albatross. The UAW refuses to acknowledge this, and the management is too busy collecting large salaries without actually taking the radical steps necessary to save themselves.

Please feel free to provide your comprehensive economic credentials and personal expertise....as for me, I have a dual degree in Finance and Economics, and will probably be pursuing a PhD in economic/financial history starting in 2007. So while I don't consider myself as another Milton Friedman, I'm confident in my ability to discern and explain economics thank you.

As for social security, what you fail to comprehend is that privatization is the probably the only thing that will prevent its complete failure (and you talk of "market failure" being a problem - consider government planning failure. There's a reason why people laugh when saying they are going to retire on their Social Security payments). You can raise taxes through the roof, but of course that argument conveniently fails to address how to fund those taxes - businesses AND people will not stand for more and more of their earnings to be taken by the government - it's called disincentive to work. So unless you force those businesses and people to cough up more, you aren't going to get more resources. And if you force such compliance, I guarantee those businesses will move to countries less likely to impose such forceful measures - capital is liquid and so are (to a large extent) the factors of production such as labor.

But by all means, if you earnestly believe in your statement, please feel free to remit more of your own paycheck to the Treasury - don't hold back. You should immediately write out a nice fat check to the US above and beyond what is taken out from your paycheck; you wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now would you? As for me, I'll take my retirement chances with the private market any day. Feel free to learn the hard way that your faith in Social Security, as it stands today, is misplaced.

Oh and yes I actually have been to South Korea...

[8F] The NyQuil Kid
--
[8F] The NyQuil Kid comes into town not looking for trouble...
n00bz gang up, but he ain't seein' double,...
pulls and draws, his deagles two...
n00bz litter the ground you know it's true.

Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL

Just to throw a few defentions to those who do not know what market failure & competition is:

Market Failure - A situation in which the market does not distribute resources effeciently.

Competition - The struggle among producers for the dollars of consumers; the rivalry among sellers to attract customers while lowering costs.
Quotes from Economics book

Market Failure

"Free riders(Ex: People driving cadillacs to the welfare building) are examples of market failure, a situation in which the market, on its own, does not distribute resources, efficiently. To understand market failure, recall how a successful free market operates: Choices made by individuals determine what goods get made, how they get made, and who consumes the goods. Profit incentives attract producers, who, because of competition, provide goods and servers that consumers need at a price they can afford. In the road-building scenario, are these features of a free market present? No If a company did build a road, it could charge a high price for tolls because it would have no competition. Also, companies would not choose to build roads in sparsely populated areas because profit incentives in those areas might be non-existing." (Verizon & Maine scenario) "This way of getting raods built would be highly impractical. In this scenario, the criteria for a properly functioning market system do not exist. That's why economists consider the situation a market failure."

Competition

"Consumers (househlds), in pursuit of their self-interest(Ex. Broadband), have the incentive to look for lower prices. An incentive is the hope of reward or the fear of punishment that encourages a person to behave in a certain way. Adam Smith observed that people respond predicatably to both positive and negative incentives. As for consumers, we can predict that they will respond to the positive inceventive of lower prices. This makes sense, because spending less money on a good lowers the opportunity cost of the purchase.

Firms, meanwhile seek to make greater profits by increasing sales. Let's take for example , a shirt manufacturer. The manufacturer produces and sells polka-dotted shirts and striped shirts. The striped shirts are far outselling the polka-dotted shirts. the manufactuerer has the incventive from more potential sales and profits-to produce more striped shirts. Other manufactuers, observing consumers' desire for striped shirts, also have the incentive to sell striped shirts. With all these manufacturers in the market, consumers have all the striped shirts they want.

Manufacturers also have a second incentive-to make the most profit in selling striped shirts. What keeps manufactureres' pursuit of profit from causing prices to skyrocket? If one manufacturer begins charging $30.00 for a striped shirt, another manufacturer can come along and sell striped shirts for $25.00. If the first manufacturer wants to sell any more striped shirts, he or she had better drop the selling price. Consumers, pursuing their self-interest, will buy the lower-priced shirt. Economist call this struggle among producers for the dollars of consumers competition. While self-interest is the motivating force behind the free market, competition is the regulating force."

Now I could go deeper into this because I have a entire book at my disposal but I think it's something to those who don't know exactly what competition or market failure is, I just took it off the book for everyone.
soothsayer15

join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX

said by PDXPLT See Profile :

Yes, rural Koreans have broadband. They use it like anyone else: to access information and entertainment, and as a vital part of their business (in their case to market and sell agricultural products).
choices.
Where did you get this information from? And if so how many Koreans. These are just statements with no evidence to support it.
older dog
Premium
join:2005-06-09
Norwich, NY

I posted this some time back, it is still appropriate and fits here.

The problem is that Monopolies have a poor history of providing a fair price; with out competition there prices skyrocket.
Example

about 30 years ago municipal electric was touted as a fix for high electric prices. the monopolies ran fake adverts on how these people were doomed to blackouts and high prices.
A small number of towns around here took the challenge.
The first 10 years were a bit rough as they learned, and paid off start up costs
Ever single one is now profitable returning money to the town coffers and providing rates that are 1/3 to 1/2 of the Monopoly.
With out competition free enterprise lets down the end user, and only benefits the investor
Muni and coops are what seem to work where competition is not present.

Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL
O_o

*Stands up and claps*
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus


1 edit
said by NyQuil Kid See Profile :

Are people that completely obtuse as to believe muni-operated internet service will be any different from other muni oriented services (pot-holes in roads, getting paperwork completed, taxes....)?
Its interesting because a majority of the municipal operations have been shown NOT to as bad as you claim... The facts don't support for ASSertion.

Sorry, but munis are and should always be a viable option. There typically is no good reason, other than ideological BS, to prevent munis from forming on local levels.
--
Ann Coulter doesn't know jack about science...
"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong." —Dwight Eisenhower

NyQuil Kid
8f The Nyquil Kid

join:2001-01-06
Brick, NJ
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL


3 edits

Re: Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

Please provide some concrete examples for your assertion (notice I didn't bother to trivialize this post by capitalizing the first three letters)....not providing such examples would amount to "ideological BS" which you certainly don't condone....:-|

Also note that I never said muni shouldn't do anything, just that munis aren't any more efficient as the private sector, and often are less efficient. Subtle distinction, but that again most people can't comprehend subtlety.

[8F] The NyQuil Kid
--
[8F] The NyQuil Kid comes into town not looking for trouble...
n00bz gang up, but he ain't seein' double,...
pulls and draws, his deagles two...
n00bz litter the ground you know it's true.
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

said by NyQuil Kid See Profile :

Please provide some concrete examples for your assertion (noticed I didn't bother to trivialize this post by capitalizing the first three letters)....I mean not doing so would amount to "ideological BS" which you certainly don't condone....:-|
Actually, you've stated that municipal networks would fall the way for roads and such into nightmarish disrepair and the bureaucratic disarray ? The fact that you've made such an assertion, it places the ball in your court to show that. I don't have to prove the negative of that assertion, which is what I basically stated.

As for trivializing... I just get a bit snarkish when talking economics for several reasons...
--
Ann Coulter doesn't know jack about science...
"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong." —Dwight Eisenhower

NyQuil Kid
8f The Nyquil Kid

join:2001-01-06
Brick, NJ
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL


3 edits
Fair enough - Maybe you are fortunate to live in a municipality that is more responsive on average, but that doesn't undermine the initial argument. It sort of takes the "If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a damn duck." approach. You can do a google search or just talk to the citizens of a local town. You're going to get a wide range of opinions; the gist of my posts is that there is a widespread and misleading presumption that a muni-oriented internet service will cure all broadband ills and can do no wrong and that flies in the face of history and common sense.

I would cite HUD or the New York Housing Authority as a concrete example of muni failure. How about the educational system? Every year SAT scores are always falling and more money is thrown into the system and yet nothing seems to improve (if one believes the media reports).

[8F] The NyQuil Kid

--
[8F] The NyQuil Kid comes into town not looking for trouble...
n00bz gang up, but he ain't seein' double,...
pulls and draws, his deagles two...
n00bz litter the ground you know it's true.
bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus

Re: Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

said by NyQuil Kid See Profile :

...the gist of my posts is that there is a widespread and misleading presumption that a muni-oriented internet service will cure all broadband ills and can do no wrong and that flies in the face of history and common sense.
And the point of my post is to illustrate the FACT that the fanatical devotion to the idea that the market will fix everything and the current method is working the best also "flies in the face of history and common sense." Free market criticism...

Its like economics is a religion, because it certainly can't be a science, the way people have fanatical attachments to certain systems and concepts based purely on ideological reasons.

I would cite HUD or the New York Housing Authority as a concrete example of muni failure.
The failure of housing like NYHUD isn't BECAUSE it is a muni project... That's taking years of history and trying to creat a single bullet point for the cause of the failure.

How about the educational system? Every year SAT scores are always falling and more money is thrown into the system and yet nothing seems to improve (if one believes the media reports).
Interesting that you mention the school system... Its funny that people like to blame the schools but ignore the two huge pink elephants in the rooms - the parents and the students. The parents of many of the children are a huge part of the problem. And the majority of the children are so unruly, undisciplined and, sadly, unintelligent, of course they are going to fail. To blame the school systems and the teachers alone is to ignore the two biggest parts of the problems. The parents are not parenting and kids aren't doing what they need to do to be successful (like skipping school, not studying, etc.).
--
Ann Coulter doesn't know jack about science...
"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong." —Dwight Eisenhower

RxRitalin

@rr.com

Re: Stunning hyprocrisy and ignorance

This is just my opinion, but it would seem to be a blatant truth. If a muni were to come in and offer a BB service at somewhere near 1 down/256k up as a free service (we all know its not free, but there is no monthly bill so it gives the appearance of.) it would no doubt put pressure on the Telcos and cable providers to differentiate themselves from a free service. Your common "web surfer" is not going to notice the difference when he or she browses the net or sends email, these are the people that makeup a large portion of said cable/Telcos market. Most users do not yet need 10Mbs down. Now you could use that as an argument as to why the cable cos don't feel the need to offer higher speeds but it does not explain their pricing.

***RANT***This brings up another problem I have with cable cos. When they do feel the sting of new competition they tend to start a publicity campaign about higher speeds at no extra cost. What they fail to mention is that it is only the download speed that raises. Now hay if they want to give me a little more DL bandwidth I'm all for it, but I would be much more appreciative for a higher upload speed. With HD being the not so new buzzword. The need for higher upload speeds is just as warranted as download. (HD video conferencing anyone? AKA the glass window.)
***RANT ENDS***

The point of all this is that if there was a muni service provider, then the bigboys would need to come up with something better then a small speed boost to justify their prices. Once that benefit has become common place and an expected benefit the muni would pick it up (albeit very slowly) and the bigboys would again need to innovate. There does come a point where a company becomes to large to be toppled by an upstart. This is the only case where a muni should step in.

viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House

Progress at it's best

What ever happened to to, we will offer it if the people are willing to pay for it? Now it's we will offer it only if there is competition. So that means if a Telco or cable company is the only game in town, those people will be stuck in the slow lane. Of course the people are stuck with what they have cause they have no alternatives. Wow, progress at it's best. Is this what they mean by giving the customer a good user experience?
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY

add them up

they compete AT each other, not against each other...
cable cos still attack satellite for video customers, and dsl for their main comparisons on triple play packages.. not FIOS.

much like sticking the roadrunner's head in the shifting sand of fios deployment. to acknowledge the REAL potential competition, is to ADMIT that they are on the losing side of the last mile quality battle, but have MORE CUSTOMERS and a larger MARKETSHARE for the time being..

packages are 10/2, 15/5, 20/5, 30/5 50/5 and claims of business packages upto 100mbits already in press releases.. but I've yet to see anything published other than possible 50/10, 50/15, 50/50.

... and lets not let this be a one sided comment: telcos, including verizon have yet to PUSH voip as a competitive product to cableco voip because its in their best interest no to at this point. still, cablevision is racking up some high numbers in voip lines, and it makes you wonder when verizon will wake up to see an achilles heel in the FIOS triple play with "fios ported>POTS". for example: POTS fcc line charge $6.39 a month!! total ny metro taxes ~$14.50 a month
AdamD

join:2002-01-09
Maspeth, NY

I'll dump RR the day FIOS comes to my area...

I'll dump RR the day FIOS comes to my area, even if RR offered faster service, as a matter of principle. I've been with RR for >5 years but if they indeed upgrade service within the same borough selectively and only based on FIOS threat without giving everyone in Queens the same upgrade options then screw them. I don't want pay the same that a guy 10 blocks away, for the same service, but get less speed.

kdubbz6688

join:2005-03-08
Clifton Park, NY

Re: I'll dump RR the day FIOS comes to my area...

Same here, when fios comes, RR goes right out the door. Fios is just south of me and I can expect fios to be here within 2 years. Road Runner sucks. Plain and Simple
jchambers106

join:2004-12-10
Kansas City, MO

speed

why cant they be like dsl and offer the same speed in every market like dsl is

Michieru2
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL

Re: speed

That really does not hold true, some markets can get speeds up to 8mbps while others can only get 1.5mbps. Distance limitations and the fact that some are connected through RT's it all depends on how close you are to the CO to get faster speeds. So to say "why can't they be like dsl and offer the same speed in every market" is irrelevant.

ftthz
If love can kill hate can also save

join:2005-10-17

cuz they don't do more than the minimum

... it figures

Varlik
Without Honor You Will Never Be Free
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Anderson, SC

It's all about the money they make not the value they offer.

I'll Dump Charter the Day Verizon FIOS and FIOS (IPTV)TV comes to my area. Oh wait silly me this is BellSouth soon to be AT&T (Or Whatever they'll call themselves) territory. What was I thinking? And if I was wrong about that then I'm more then likely wrong about 6M not being enough. Heck I'm probably wrong about Charter wanting $50 to $60 for 5M / 512 and $70 to $80 10M /1M being outrageously over priced.
--
"Sir SIR! We don't use DHCP servers. We only use IBM & Microsoft servers." From there my call to tech support went steadily downhill.

--Who is Benjamin Breeg? Where is Benjamin Breeg?

Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:

C'mon now...

Give this company a break.

They've long been a great ISP delivering a great, consistent product across the board for most users.

That's notable for a company their size and covering as many regions as they have over the years.

FIOS certainly is a great product and a new threat to not only this cable operator, but all of them eventually.
It's natural that in the early stages, the company would move to retain their customers by trying to respond in kind to the kinds of things that verizon is offering as INTRODUCTORY offers.

That does not mean this, or any company, can then flip a switch and have it offered nationwide to all their customers at once. In some respects, the internet makes this a somewhat unlevel playing field because NOW we get to know what's happening in Oshkosh, USA the moment it happens whereas before, we might never have learned of it until the upgrade hit everyone.

I mean, do you REALLY want them just throwing the switch and turning on something that isn't ready yet for your area? I sure wouldn't.
That's how these networks degrade so quickly and cause problems for everyone.

Actually, we former adelphia customers are experiencing this same kind of thing today. While we've apparently been sold to Comcast..who's customers get 6MB speeds..and even up to 12MB or more with powerboost..we still get the 4MB Adelphia speeds until we're finally converted over.

Do I really care? Nope. I'd rather have this than the dsl alternatives for one. And I'd REALLY rather have this great 4MB + connection than some untested higher speeds..just for the sake of saying I have it.

Cut em some slack!!

Roadrunner is an awesome service and I wish I had it back!

--
The life you help save just might be your own Team Discovery

thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY

Oh no, not 10 mbps!

In my area I get FIOS for $55/month, at 30/9.5.

Let me guess what the package is, 10000/384? 768, maybe?

Why bother upgrading to speeds far below the competetion in the same area as the competetion? Either offer somethng on par with it, cheaper, or don't bother/
--
The Problem With Music.
Our Rationale
Time to rewrite the DMCA.

Varlik
Without Honor You Will Never Be Free
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Anderson, SC

Re: Oh no, not 10 mbps!

said by thender2 See Profile :

In my area I get FIOS for $55/month, at 30/9.5.

Let me guess what the package is, 10000/384? 768, maybe?

Why bother upgrading to speeds far below the competetion in the same area as the competetion? Either offer somethng on par with it, cheaper, or don't bother/
Because they only offer those speeds in areas they have competition. And they know by offering those speeds for that price compared to what Verizon is offering that not many folks will turn down Verizon over them. This way they get to say that they tried to compete. And that this is the best they can offer until they upgrade in the near future. Just how near the near future is is any ones guess.
--
"Sir SIR! We don't use DHCP servers. We only use IBM & Microsoft servers." From there my call to tech support went steadily downhill.

--Who is Benjamin Breeg? Where is Benjamin Breeg?

MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs:
If they have roadrunner most people are to lazy impatient to switch and thats the theory behind this.
Edrick
Premium
join:2004-09-11
Orlando, FL

Verizon Treats Us the Same Way

You aint gonna see speeds faster than 15 Mbit @ 45 a month until we see some competition in your area so sucks to be you! You're stuck with us cause there's no way you're gonna switch to slower cable and there's no one faster than us in your area so HAH! While at the same time we'll offer 30 in other areas and start tests on 50.
--
Ricky SmithVerizon FIOS User15 Mbit Down 2 Mbit Up

jdrtech

join:2004-08-01
Staten Island, NY

1 edit

Re: Verizon Treats Us the Same Way

No matter what time warner does, no match for verizon fiber optics to the home! my 30mb/5mb 54.95 a month speed eats roadrunner alive!!!

Proctologist

@comcast.net
Wow! You got it real good! 15 Mbit @ 45 a month ain't bad!

Try $59.95 a month on Comcast for 4M/386 without the KY

BIGMIKE
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Westminster, CA

Re: Verizon Treats Us the Same Way

said by Proctologist :

Wow! You got it real good! 15 Mbit @ 45 a month ain't bad!

Try $59.95 a month on Comcast for 4M/386 without the KY
dslreports.com speed test result on 2006-10-01 23:08:17 EST:
14829 / 1696
Your download speed : 14829 kbps or 1853.6 KB/sec.
That is 394.1% better than an average user on verizon.net

Your upload speed : 1696 kbps or 212.1 KB/sec.
That is 100.4% better than an average user on verizon.net

15/2 $44.95 a month
--
Type "miserable failure" in Google
tperl

join:2005-11-15
Blacklick, OH

not here

There has been TW competition here for a long time and we still are not seeing premium speeds. WOW formally Americast does not offer the premium speed either though.

kennydillon
Premium
join:2002-06-09
Goddard, KS

Kansas City

I have sent numerous emails to the rr supervisor asking about speed updates for the Kansas City area and never get a response. My last email was simply asking if there were competition would they raise the speeds. Of course they are not responding. I would call and talk to a rep but 1. you wait on hold for like an hour and then you would get a response like "There are no planned increases in speed for our area" So we just sit and wait and hope that they will do something in the future. I have stated once before that Kansas City is behind in times anyhow. I am originally from Oklahoma and they had High Speed there before Kansas City did and It was at higher speeds than what we are getting now. Oh well... We wait and wait and wait and wait!

Kenny
DarkSyde

join:2006-06-07
Akron, OH

Pfft they couldn't provide it here anyhow

So I guess that settles it: there won't be 7Mbps in Akron Ohio. Of course, it doesn't really matter anyway as the service here is so gawd awful that I rarely see 1Mbps during the day.

ArchAngel21x
MacFan Pro
Premium
join:2001-10-28
Lincoln, NE
·Internet Nebraska


1 edit

Cool

I saw on the news last weekend that the local phone company, Windstream, is rolling out fiber. Maybe that means TW will give me more speed. Thing is, I don't need more download speed. I want more upload speed.
--
Archangelx on Ragnarok = Black Mage 60 - White Mage 38 - Warrior 37 - Monk 26 - Summoner 20 - Fishing 38 - Cooking 2
Riuski

join:2005-12-16
Alhambra, CA

To be honest....

Very few people would behave any differently if they were in the same position as these companies. Given 2 choices, status quo with lots of money in your pockets now, or increase your (immediate) costs with less money in your pocket now, which would you choose? Now take into account that your stockholders and your company value is based on what investors see NOW, and their decisions not to offer better bandwidth/service don't seem as silly.
quicksilver

join:2001-03-24
Dayton, OH

speed

how much is it will it come to dayton ohio
my speed with basic cable
4785/364
Forums » Time Warner : You Get 10Mbps if There's Competition


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