Child Porn, Botched Raids, and...Shaq? Incorrect IP address leads to wrong culprits Techdirt tells the strange tale of how a family had their home raided for child porn by a SWAT team that had somehow obtained the wrong IP address. The husband of the family tells his tale in a letter to the editor of the local paper. The story gets a little weirder, since Shaquille O'Neal apparently participated in the raid, and, according to the Bedford Bulletin, "did some computer work" with the raid team. A similar false-arrest was made last year when Cox handed over the wrong IP information to law enforcement.
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  ieolusSupport The Clecs
join:2001-06-19
Duluth, GA | One word... Shenanigans. | |
|  | | | Re: One word... Should that not be "Shaqanigans"?
I had to ......... HAD to ok !?!?!?
lol
DV
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| | |  Jafo232You Can't Spell Democrat Without Rat.Premium
join:2002-10-17
Boonville, NY | Re: One word... I know someone who had the same thing happen to them. The only difference is it was the postal police, but basically the same thing.
They swooped in military style, shook up a husband, wife, and child for what in the end was a mistake on their part.
Forget even taking the bastards to court, because nobody wants their name anywhere near "child pornography".
The police know this too, because when the husband protested during the search (they were confiscating his work laptop), they said something to point of: "Well, why don't we just call your job and tell them why we are confiscating your laptop?".
There should be a discreet way to punish these "screw-ups" after they come within a hair of ruining someones life forever.
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'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached' | |
| | | |  MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL | Re: One word... said by Jafo232:The police know this too, because when the husband protested during the search (they were confiscating his work laptop), they said something to point of: "Well, why don't we just call your job and tell them why we are confiscating your laptop?". I guess nobody told the cop about innocent until proven guilty. | |
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amungusPremium
join:2004-11-26
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| I didn't know Shaq was in on it!
Nobody could run. He could simply reach over their heads and slap them in the face before they got two feet away!
...on another note, what's with the excessive SWAT action?
I thought they (shouldn't they be) used those teams for more violent targets like people with lots of guns, holdups etc.
Either way, it shouldn't be a tricky ordeal to cross reference your target before busting down the doors, wrecking a house, and causing grief to the wrong person(s). Shouldn't even take more than 1 extra minute. Ok, so and so, address, phone #, IP address... look in a phonebook, ok, wait, that's Joe UnShmoe, not Jack NeedsHisHeadTakenOff at 555 main st. | |
| | | | Re: I didn't know said by amungus:Shaq was in on it! ...on another note, what's with the excessive SWAT action? I thought they (shouldn't they be) used those teams for more violent targets like people with lots of guns, holdups etc. I agree what a waste of resources. I thought pedophiles were usually these squirrely little wimp like people like John Mark Karr. Hardly someone worthy of a team of people in black with full auto weapons ready to take down. Slow crime day?
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| | |  2kmaroThinkPremium,ExMod 1 BC
join:2000-07-11
ColossalCave | Re: I didn't know Don't get that picture stuck in your head. I just had opportunity to view a pedophile in the very close flesh - a rather, shall we say, unsavory looking fellow. You would not want to meet him in the proverbial dark alley. And even though he claimed to be gay, I guarantee he did not look gay.
How do I know for sure: he was found guilty of abusing a minor from 1994-1998, numerous counts, and last I heard jury was out deciding how much of the potential "Life + 275 years" they were going to give him. Had already been tagged for possessing and distributing kiddy porn via U.S. Mail. I think we know where we can find him for a while now.
Ever watch the 'Dateline' series where they set up traps for would-be pedophiles? All types, sizes, all walks of life (from virtual derelicts to software engineers and on to a prominent California physician). | |
| | | | | | Re: I didn't know
This is the standard attack the police are trained in when assaulting a house to grab a perp for ANY reason. And, you ARE GUILTY just by the fact that a raid was called on your dwelling or business, as far as the kill team conducting the assault is concerned.
The reason they do it this way, they will tell you, is that they dont know what they will encounter inside. You might be some meth head, high as a kite, or, some despirate criminal who will open fire on them even though, if you stop and think about it, you have NEVER heard of this happening, EVER.
It's the same "us versus them" (and we, the upstanding citizens are "them", make no mistake) mentality that prompts every available cop respond to any call even remotely exciting as "backup", or, to a chase of some poor dufus who finds himself surrounded by 10 weapon brandishing cops (Rodney King, anyone?) and is lucky if one of them, high on adrenalin as they are, dosen't shoot him for twitching and the others join in because one fired (new york, a apartment building lobby, one of the cops yelled gun when the guy was reaching for his wallet and they ALL EMPTIED THEIR GUNS, RELOADED and emptied them again. The man was shot 40 TIMES.
Forgive me, but if you are such a wussy that you need 10 armed cops beside you to do anything, I dont think you should be a cop. I bet the old cops, who did it the hard way are spinning at warp speed in their graves.
They do stuff like this and then wonder why they get no respect and everyone hates them. The trained government killer mentality for you.
I mean really...How many cops does it take to take down ONE perp? You see these "barracaded perp" stories on the news and you could swear the entire department is out there, guns drawn, just waiting for a kill shot, against (usually) 1 poor overstressed person. All the while making snide remarks to each other. | |
| | | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | Re: I didn't know Everyone hates them? I don't hate cops. | |
| | | | | | quatrixPremium
join:2005-02-11
Davie, FL
kudos:2 | Re: I didn't know said by Ahrenl:Everyone hates them? I don't hate cops. Criminals hate cops. | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know "Everyone hates them? I don't hate cops."
You just haven't had a run in with one of the overbearing patrol dufuses yet.
"{Criminals hate cops."
That's true. There are also many other people out there who have been screwed around by cops for no good reason who dont like them much either.
Like those who are stopped in California for one reason or another and are handcuffed routinely "as a protection measure", for example. | |
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| | | |  BIGMIKEPremium
join:2002-06-07
Westminster, CA | The Waco Massacre
Many people believe that David Koresh (or the Branch Davidians) were responsible for the deaths of the 74 men, women and children who died in the inferno at Waco on April 19, 1993. This is the story that the FBI put out. It is a lie. The guns they had were legal. The local sheriff investigated and found no basis for complaints against them. These were law-abiding American citizens, even if they thought differently to most other folks. They trusted the U.S. Constitution to ensure their political rights, but they were murdered by agents acting under the authority of the U.S. government. Read this page if you believe otherwise. If you still have doubts, get the video Rules of Engagement for visual evidence. Or read the book Armageddon in Waco. Or see the film Waco: A New Revelation. »www.serendipity.li/waco.html
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| | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know Yeah yeah and 9/11 was a government plot to get a war in Iraq, the Holocaust was made up by the jews to get some pity.
Isn't there a conspiracy forum away from the general public for people like you? | |
| | | | | | | | | Conspiracy Minded Forum said by Shark_615:Isn't there a conspiracy forum away from the general public for people like you?
Not "away from the general public", in fact it is very public (free membership)...........
abovetopsecret.com
DV
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Bush is the Prez....Think Patriot Act II....This outspoken dissident....In jail I'll be soon. | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know "Yeah yeah and 9/11 was a government plot to get a war in Iraq, the Holocaust was made up by the jews to get some pity.
Isn't there a conspiracy forum away from the general public for people like you?"
I think you should read up on Waco and what happened, along with the aftermath before you go popping off, since you obviously aren't familliar with it in any meaningfull fashion.
I suggest you read up on Ruby Ridge too as to how the man was vindicated and his wife and son were shot in the back by a government sniper and how the state of Idaho tried to prosecute that sniper for murder.
The FACT is that the government DOES do things like this, for whatever reason. | |
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| | | | | | | said by BIGMIKE:The Waco Massacre ...This is the story that the FBI put out. It is a lie. The guns they had were legal. The local sheriff investigated and found no basis for complaints against them. Um... no. They had automatic weapons, which were illegal in Texas. No point in countering any of the other claims. | |
| | | | | | | BVT
join:2004-10-25
Mount Juliet, TN | Re: I didn't know Possessing automatic weapons is not illegal. If the weapons were purchased before a ban went into affect, they are legal.
There is no such thing as a grandfather law (crime) in this country. Now debunk more of his argument | |
| | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know said by BVT:Possessing automatic weapons is not illegal. If the weapons were purchased before a ban went into affect, they are legal. Now show proof the guns were purchased before the automatic weapons ban. I don't know about you, but when a group stockpiles a huge cache of military weapons I would want the authorities to get involved. | |
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4 edits | Re: I didn't know said by SRFireside:Now show proof the guns were purchased before the automatic weapons ban. I don't know about you, but when a group stockpiles a huge cache of military weapons I would want the authorities to get involved. I have a large cache of these weapons..all legally owned by me...And no, I don't need the military here to make sure I'm being good with them....thats what the background check was for...now Its MY business....
said by SRFireside:That doesn't stop the fact that they shot at police officers. The warrants were issued. They knew the police were coming. They knew why the police were coming. Do you say it's okay for a drug dealer to shoot at DEA agents because they are coming into his property? Law abiding citizens don't shoot at law enforcement officers when they KNOW it's law enforcement officers. Regardless of whether or not they felt they did nothing wrong, they did the wrong thing. I don't care who you are. Once you start shooting all bets are off. This part I agree with whole heartedly | |
| | | | | | | | | | | "Now show proof the guns were purchased before the automatic weapons ban. I don't know about you, but when a group stockpiles a huge cache of military weapons I would want the authorities to get involved."
And, just WHAT was he going to do with a "stockpile" of weapons? Do what he did and try to defend himself? This business about weapons was only the governments excuse to raid the place, which they did without announcing their presence or presenting a warrant. Instead a ATF kill team went in and tried to sneak in and take control. They were discovers as prowlers and shot at which was, of course, the excuse for the seige.
Kill one of ours and we WILL get you, no matter what it takes, REGARDLESS of if we were wrong in the first place.
the other bottom line fact is that Koresh was in town every day, or running outside the compound and the sheriff could have scooped him up any time.
But they didn't want to do that. They wanted to do their usual gestapo crap and raid the place in full kill kit. Just scooping Koresh off the street would very likely have served to defuse the situation and lead to a peacefull surrender. | |
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| | | | | | | emptywigHuh? What?Premium
join:2002-08-05
Pasadena, TX | They shot cops. That's what got all those people killed. THEY shot cops. End of story.
They fact the guns were legal is a moot point. Even if EVERY gun was legal, its not legal to shoot cops, even if they're coming in on bogus charges.
wig
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| | | | | | | | |  sweintzPremium
join:2002-03-01
Hamden, CT | Re: I didn't know said by emptywig:They shot cops. That's what got all those people killed. THEY shot cops. End of story. They fact the guns were legal is a moot point. Even if EVERY gun was legal, its not legal to shoot cops, even if they're coming in on bogus charges. wig THEY only shot cops after cops opened fire on THEM first with automatic weapons. From a helicopter no less. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know I remember the footage. ATF was closing in on the compound and about to get in, but the first shots came from the compound. NOT the police. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know you are an idiot.
have you ever bothered watching some of the recent shows about this subject on the history or learning channel?
the government did totally mess up and they were climbing ONTO the property when they got shot.
too bad for them, i say. dont put the police and swat teams on a pedestal. they're just like you and i, doing our jobs. lets not get all emotional just because they "protect" us. they're not all heros. in fact most cops have serious inferiority complexes they inflict on the public on a daily basis.
what about that one cop that was supposedly babysitting but actually molesting the child? this guy was in the forces for at least a decade or two.
so yeah, they were "about to get in" but I would consider climing onto the roof and breaking a window open "getting in". | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know That doesn't stop the fact that they shot at police officers. The warrants were issued. They knew the police were coming. They knew why the police were coming. Do you say it's okay for a drug dealer to shoot at DEA agents because they are coming into his property? Law abiding citizens don't shoot at law enforcement officers when they KNOW it's law enforcement officers.
Regardless of whether or not they felt they did nothing wrong, they did the wrong thing. I don't care who you are. Once you start shooting all bets are off.
And you call me the idiot? | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | "I remember the footage. ATF was closing in on the compound and about to get in, but the first shots came from the compound. NOT the police."
The assault team was discovered on the roof of the building and was fired upon. 3 agents were killed. They had not announced themselves, or, that they had a warrant. The people inside were within their rights to open fire as far as I am concerned. The police are supposed to announce they are police and have a warrant before attempting to break in. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know said by Fatal Vector:They had not announced themselves, or, that they had a warrant. The people inside were within their rights to open fire as far as I am concerned. The police are supposed to announce they are police and have a warrant before attempting to break in. They were shot at before making their entry. The way a SWAT entry is done is that you get all your men prepared before making your entry. They were shot at before this was done, which means they didn't get a chance to make the announcement. Either way they were ready for a fight and drew first blood. You can easily turn this around and say the Davidian camp didn't announce their intent either.
This impending assault was in the news for Pete's sake. How can they NOT know they were coming. Do you have anything to back up the claim that the Davidians didn't have any prior warning that the law was coming? | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know Nope, still wrong, Koresh , actually opened the door to meet the agents, who opened fire on him, wounding him, before ducking back inside closing the door. There actually were helicopters firing down upon the Davidians.
Here is link to testimony given in the hearings looking at this massacre.
»www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.···cre.html
it is a long read, covering every thing.Naming names of agents and Treasury officials and agents involved.
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Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know I cannot accept an essay from a biased website. I need an official link to that incident. There was plenty of news coverage that day so if it really happened as you said it wouldn't be hard to find. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know said by SRFireside:I cannot accept an essay from a biased website. I need an official link to that incident. There was plenty of news coverage that day so if it really happened as you said it wouldn't be hard to find. A biased website? did you read anything?
The only bias that is showing is yours.
If you expect the government to provide an official website or link detailing the biggest f&ck up in law enforcement history by a Democratic president, providing classified documents and sealed testimony. Then you Sir would have a better odds of hell freezing over first.
I find it amusing you can dismiss the testimony and lawsuits filed by the survivors--out of hand, including lawsuits filed by former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, now in private practice.
Perhaps, you would care to provide an official link, which doesn't exist that fully documents the actions of federal law enforcement officials, which offers credible evidence debunking this so called "biased essay". Otherwise I stand on the allegations posted as fact, from my above 2nd post.
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Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm. | |
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See 13 replies to this post |
| | | | | | | | | | | "They were shot at before making their entry. The way a SWAT entry is done is that you get all your men prepared before making your entry. They were shot at before this was done, which means they didn't get a chance to make the announcement. Either way they were ready for a fight and drew first blood. You can easily turn this around and say the Davidian camp didn't announce their intent either.
This impending assault was in the news for Pete's sake. How can they NOT know they were coming. Do you have anything to back up the claim that the Davidians didn't have any prior warning that the law was coming"
All one needs to look at is the video of the ATF agents in full kill gear climbing up on the roof og the building and attempting to break in the window, at which time they were fired upon from inside and did a sloppily hasty retreat. They did not announce themselves, which is a legal requirement and had NO BUSINESS being on the roof and trying to break in with a assault team. The facts speak for themselves. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know Full kill gear? Is that what you call body armor? This is standard MO for an arrest of hostile suspects. Ask ANY police officer what proper procedure is for this situation and they will tell you the same. This was a fringe community stockpiling military grade arms. The ONLY way to make an arrest is to come in from multiple entries and protected.
You need to look at the facts from an objective standpoint instead of with emotional reaction. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | "Even if EVERY gun was legal, its not legal to shoot cops, even if they're coming in on bogus charges."
Excuse me? It's not legal to prowl around peoples property in the middle of the night, out in rural Texas and climb up on the roof of the house then try to break in with a assault team without announcing yourself and the fact you have a warrant. They were arrogant and stupid and some of them paid for it with their lives.
I hate to tell you this, but cops are not the lilly white warriors you would like to believe they are. ESPECIALLY the federal ones who think they can do any damn thing they want to just because they are federal LEO's.
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| | | | | | | | said by SRFireside:said by BIGMIKE:The Waco Massacre ...This is the story that the FBI put out. It is a lie. The guns they had were legal. The local sheriff investigated and found no basis for complaints against them. Um... no. They had automatic weapons, which were illegal in Texas. No point in countering any of the other claims. NO, wrong answer
FACT: The ATF, submitted falsified evidence, in order to conduct a raid. The warrant contained 2 lies. The first lie, A meth lab was inside being used to manufacture drugs. The second lie, illegal arms trading was being conducted there, BOTH false allegations, which was proven in court.
FACT: The Davidians had no automatic weapons as reported by the liberal media press reports.
FACT: The ATF had the only automatic weapons, who were trained by Army Special Forces, WHO WERE present the day of the raid.
FACT: The ATF field agent conducting this raid, learned the raid was compromised, called the SAC to call it off. The idea to call off the raid was rejected by Clinton & Janet Reno, who ordered the assault into motion.
FACT: David Koresch jogged daily, they could have picked him up any time.
FACT:During the Congressional investigation of this botched raid. The ATF refused to produce the front door of the retreat, Stating, "we misplaced the evidence and can't find it."
FACT: The ATF went in shooting, which is why they refuse to produce the front door, which would incriminate themselves.
FACT: After pumping that place full of CS gas, ATF agents entered rear of building(off camera view) and opened fire, after emerging from an APC, that WAS firing during approach.
FACT: The ATF, never intended for anyone to come out alive. After pumping toxic and highly flammable levels of CS gas into the retreat.
The ATF, used an APC, breached the building in strategic locations, NOT to allow escape routes as claimed, but to ensure fire moved swiftly through the building. Did you notice the lack of fire trucks which were kept well away from the blaze?
The reason, CS gas burning in that inferno, when contacted by water, would have produce a very toxic gas cloud and the high winds that day would have swept that cloud over a populated area causing hundreds of more deaths.
FACT: BTW owning fully automatic weapons is not illegal. Provided one obtains a class III tax stamp and/or in addition with an FFL.
All liberals wanting to keep repeating lies as fact, go right ahead, repeat it often enough, maybe you'll believe it yourselves to be true. I on the other hand will keep countering your false lies with facts of truth.
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Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm. | |
| | | | | | | | | | Re: I didn't know FACT: There is no way a law enforcement agency intended to kill off entire families. Give me a reason WHY they would do that for a simple little cult in Waco and then give me some EVIDENCE to prove it.
FACT: They still shot at law enforcement officers first. If they didn't fire a shot I'll pay even money on the odds that the ATF would never have fired a shot either. Like every other raid of this sort the objective is to be prepared for any hostilities. Looks like the other side wanted to kill so the ATF was right.
Yes this was a botched job by the ATF. Yes they went about it totally the wrong way. Yes Janet Reno was putting on a show for the press flexing her law enforcement muscles. And YES the Branch Davidians attacked the ATF agents before they entered the compound, giving Reno the perfect excuse to go to the extreme. IF the Davidians didn't fire a shot everybody would be alive right now. | |
| | | | | | | | | BIGMIKEPremium
join:2002-06-07
Westminster, CA | Re: I didn't know Clear cut violations of the law.
The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed in 1878 after the end of Reconstruction. The Act was intended to prohibit Federal troops from supervising elections in former Confederate states. It generally prohibits Federal military personnel and units of the United States National Guard under Federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act substantially limit the powers of the Federal government to use the military for law enforcement.
The original act referred only to the United States Army. The Air Force was added in 1956, and the Navy and the Marine Corps have been included by a regulation of the Department of Defense. This law is often mentioned when it appears that the Department of Defense is interfering in domestic disturbances. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
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| | | | | | |  ROCINANTEOriginal Member 007Premium
join:1999-06-29
Hartsdale, NY | Your facts are opinions until you produce official government documents from a .gov site and not from some circle-jerk conspiracy site. Haven't you ever written papers for school? You must cite your sources, and the sources must be credible.
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| | | | | | | | | BIGMIKEPremium
join:2002-06-07
Westminster, CA | Re: I didn't know said by ROCINANTE:Your facts are opinions until you produce official government documents from a .gov site and not from some circle-jerk conspiracy site. Haven't you ever written papers for school? You must cite your sources, and the sources must be credible. Government Not Credible - Government Lies.
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| | | | | | | | | | | said by ROCINANTE: some circle-jerk conspiracy site. Haven't you ever written papers for school? You must cite your sources, and the sources must be credible. You will have to explain that circle jerk thang you got going on.
Now as for sources, google them up or better yet try the library of congress or the FOIA and independently verify, the facts you call opinions. OR look up the people named here for yourself. 
FACT: In a shoot-out erupting from a foolhardy publicity stunt launched by the Bureau 0f Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
against a religious retreat east of Waco, Texas. Nearly 100 people, most of them women and children, hid inside
for 51 days--besieged by helicopters, snipers and hundreds of federal agents, terrorized nightly with bright lights and high-volume audio torture.
FACT: After promising "patience", and the desire to "avoid further violence", an FBI commando unit attacked the Branch Davidian home with armored vehicles, ramming through the walls of the wood-frame structure and saturating the church building with the poisonous chemical CS. All but nine were slaughtered in the inferno that resulted.
FACT:On the 19th of April 1993 the nearly 90 deaths, most of them mothers, children or infants, would not have occurred had it not been for the ATF's shocking disregard for innocent life. The Gun Gestapo was willing to risk it all in a vainglorious show
of force, staged for television cameras, to arrest one man with no criminal convictions, Branch Davidian leader David Koresh, for ALLEGEDLY buying illegal gun parts. No one responsible has yet been called to account.
FACT:Two ATF raid commanders, Phil Chojnacki and Chuck Sarabyn, were fired after a Treasury Department report flayed them for lying and altering documents in an attempt to divert blame to a junior undercover agent. Chojnacki and Sarabyn, the two BATF scoundrels who headed up the biggest disaster in federal law enforcement history, Were fired on 26th, October for gross negligence, incompetence and falsifying official documents related to the Waco disaster.Both received a nice Christmas gift. They both got their jobs back, along with full back pay and benefits...This after eight months of administrative leave that amounted to a paid vacation. According to federal sources, Chojnacki and Sarabyn threatened to name names about what "really" happened.
Although technically demoted, each are receiving similar pay as when they were fired. The Treasury Department footed the bill for their lawyers. Chojnacki, a 24 year ATF veteran, is now the ATF liaison to the U.S. Customs Service in Houston. Sarabyn, is the chief of the visual information branch at ATF headquarters in Washington. One can only hope that when they go home to their kennels each night, their mothers bite them. They were rehired, when they threatened to expose the complicity of superiors. Keep that in mind as we look at the truth.
FACT:The Justice Department insists the FBI, which took command after the raid's bloody failure, is blameless in the final holocaust, claiming the Davidians set the fire and elected to remain inside in a suicide pact. The Davidians say the fire started when armored vehicles ran over and ruptured propane lanterns and stoves. Some say agents did so deliberately.
FACT: More than a dozen lawsuits were filed seeking more than $2 billion in damages. The junior undercover agent(Robert Rodriguez) has sued the ATF, while other agents have sued Waco news media for supposedly tipping off the Davidians. A Waco TV reporter sued out of town news organizations for their portrayal of his part in the coverage. And, of course, survivors, and the relatives of those slain, sued various high-ranking government officials, mid-level bureaucrats and many agents involved.
FACT: The most intriguing lawsuit was filed by former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, now in private practice, on behalf of a number of Waco survivors and surviving families. It claimed that a secret contingent of the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) infiltrated the building wearing closed-circuit breathing gear and shot Davidians already dead or disabled by the carbon monoxide and cyanide gases emitted when the CS riot control agent was heated by the spreading fire. A fireball that erupted during the inferno was not a ruptured propane cylinder, as the government arson report claims, but an incendiary bomb used to make sure everyone in the so called "bunker" was dead, the suit claims.
FACT: The walk in concrete vault with its steel reinforced walls was built in the 1950's to store church records. It had actually survived one fire, and became not a place to commit suicide, but a haven that church members knew would not burn.
This "killing team", as Clark's suit called it, allegedly entered the Mount Carmel center either in the rear, out of sight of the news media, or was discharged inside the building and picked up five minutes later by one or more of the Combat Engineer Vehicles (CEVs).
FACT: These vehicles repeatedly rammed the same locations of the building in the 40 minutes before noon and even after the fire had started, collapsing all stair cases. FBI agent R.J. Craig, driving the first CEV to hit the building at about 0600, admitted in testimony that his assignment on the first penetration was to collapse debris over a trap door "to try to keep people from running down" into a buried school bus that led to an unfinished tornado shelter.
In a building with 11 exit doors and 82 windows, it is interesting that the FBI felt the need to create avenues of escape for Davidians who might want to leave. The giant holes knocked in the building by FBI armor, Ramsey"s suit argues, were not escape routes, but ventilation ducts, carefully designed to spread fire as quickly as possible, taking advantage of the prevailing 30MPH winds. NOT ONE survivor came out any of the holes smashed open by CEVs. Nor did the FBI intend for them to, Ramsey contends.
FACT: Orthocholorbenzylidene malononitrile is the chemical name for CS lachrymator gas, its common name is derived from B.B. Corson and R.W. Stoughton, the two chemists who invented it in 1928. Despite assurances from Attorney General Janet Reno that CS was a safe riot control agent, she neglected to mention that Aldrich Chemical, which makes CS, quit selling the product to the Israeli Defense Forces after Amnesty International documented the CS-related deaths of 40 Palestinians, including 18 babies less than a year old.
FACT: U.S. soldiers are forbidden from using it against enemies in battle without an executive order signed by the president. This might explain Reno's call to President Bill Clinton two days before the fire.
Aldrich Chemical warns in is literature that CS SHOULD NOT BE USED IN CLOSED SPACES and that "the chemical, physical and toxicological properties have not been thoroughly investigated". Aldrich also cautions users that relatively low heat causes the crystalline powder to break down and release deadly carbon monoxide (CO) and hydrogen cyanide(HCN) gases.
FACT: two-thirds of the bodies autopsied from the Waco fire contained these lethal gases, according to toxicology reports.
Two other chemicals turned up in the lungs of Waco fire victims: Acetone and ethanol. Coincidentally, both are carrier agents in which CS is dissolved for more effective dispersal.
Acetone and ethanol are also extremely volatile and flammable---excellent accelerants for starting a very hot, fast spreading fire or vapor explosion. Justice Department investigators said FBI agents used relatively inert carbon dioxide gas to facilitate the spraying of CS from the armored vehicles. But the presence of acetone and ethanol in the lungs of so many of the fire victims suggests the FBI may have been mistaken. It could also explain why sheets of flame flashed through Mount Carmel at such terrifying speed.
In the opinion of Dr. George F. Uhlig, a retired Air Force colonel who is now a mathematician and chemical engineer. "The CS was diluted with either acetone or ethanol, as the autopsies indicated both solvents were in the lungs of the individuals killed...The liquid aerosol obviously was of the correct particle size, came into contact with a flame and the flame front traveled from particle to particle rapidly. to create the fireball described by survivors. We used a similar concept in designing Fuel Air Explosive (FAE) devices in the Air Force....
"While the flame front in the case of the branch Davidian complex did not generate the overpressure of fuel-air explosive devices, the results were similar," the college professor stated in a letter to David Hall, owner of KPOC-TV in Ponca City, Oklahoma, which produced a documentary on the Waco massacre. "The structure burned rapidly to the ground and the CS agent was burned in the process...to generate hydrogen cyanide gas. It was probably a good decision on the part of the federal agents on the scene not to attempt to put out the fire using water".
"The resulting steam generated...would further generate hydrogen cyanide and the resulting cloud of cyanide gas and steam could have been carried on the prevailing winds over populated areas." Uhlig wrote. "CS is said to be nonlethal UNLESS dispensed into a confined space. The hydrogen cyanide from 40-50 (Ferret) cartridges, each containing 12.5 grams of CS, would generate sufficient hydrogen cyanide gas just in being fired in the prescribed manner to kill people in a confined space."
"The use of 40-50 Ferret cartridges is clearly outside the range of possibilities," he wrote, apparently not realizing at the time that the FBI had fired a few hundred Ferret rounds into Mount Carmel. "They never considered federal agents would use 55 gallon drums of CS (powder, for sprayers on the armored vehicles), dilute it and then fill a structure with the resulting aerosol.
If 500 grams of CS, less than a quart of the agent, generates sufficient hydrogen cyanide from just being fired normally to kill people in confined spaces, think about the results of filling a structure with CS from 55 gallon drums and then igniting it. Marvelous way to kill people, if that is your intent"
Uhlig's expert analysis casts in a new light the FBI's refusal to allow fire trucks near the blaze until nothing was left except smoldering rubble. The FBI claims the firemen were in danger from gunfire by the Branch Davidians, the same reason the FBI used to explain its hastly demolition and intense gassing of the building..
But all fire survivors consistently deny shooting at the armored vehicles or anyone else, A CLAIM BOLSTERED BY VIDEOTAPE taken during the gassing and demolition operation, which shows FBI agents standing unprotected, individually and in groups, in close proximity to the building. The lack of preparation for a fire that the FBI should have anticipated is problematic.
In the standard manual for special weapons and tactics teams (FM-1698) the section dealing with the use of riot control agents such as CS specifically warns planners to "be aware of the fact that some gas projectiles will burn, while others will explode. Be prepared for the eventuality of a fire".
Yet the Justice Department's investigation, which exonerated itself and the FBI, states on page 274, "When Ms. Reno asked about the availability of emergency vehicles, she was concerned about helicopters and other medical evacuation capabilities, not fire trucks."
Even without fire trucks, the FBI could have used equipment on hand to prepare for a fire. The CEVs used in the gassing and demolition operation are designed for and come FACTORY-EQUIPPED with high pressure water pumps for fire fighting. New techniques for this equipment were developed for fighting the Kuwaiti oil-well fires during the Gulf War. Yet the FBI did not rig the CEVs for fire fighting.
More troubling, though, is the revelation that the FBI and ATF were offered, in writing, the use of armored, remote controlled, heavy-duty fire fighting equipment, which would have eliminated the necessity of exposing fire fighters to gunfire,IF the Davidians had been shooting.
Jan Bezucha Vaclav of the Flamechek Corp. in Santa Paula, California offered the company's model 55. Made in the Czech Republic and based on a T-55 tank chassis, it has remote sensor video cameras, flood lights and a rotating water/foam cannon capable of delivering 600 gallons of foam or water per minute, all radio controlled. Flamechek's offer was declined.
That refusal apparently was not based on aversion to robotic equipment. FBI planners accepted the offer of a Defense Department contractor, who happens to be a former FBI agent, for three Surrogate Tele-operated Vehicles (STVs), according to a letter released by the Pentagon under the Freedom of Information Act. According to a letter dated 10 March 1993 and signed by General Jimmy D. Ross, commanding general of the U.S. Army Materiel Command, the STV "is a prototype, remotely controlled ground vehicle..designed for battlefield surveillance and reconnaissance operations."
The STV has daylight and night vision video cameras, forward looking infrared imaging sensors, a video recorder and two-way voice communications, the generals letter states. Funded by Army research and development funds, the three STVs were provided to the FBI in Waco with an on site operator, technicians, logistical support, a Marine Corps major and an Army captain. All were delivered with the comforting assurance that the "personnel have been briefed in restrictions on military involvement in civil law enforcement."
The FBI also sought other high-tech gadgetry for use in Waco. FBI agents spent two days trying to convince a Russian scientist to let the FBI test the Russian's acoustic mind control device on the Branch Davidians, according to Defense Electronics magazine. The FBI received closed door briefings in northern Virgina on 17-19 March from Dr. Igor Smirnov of the Moscow Medical Academy, the reputable trade publication reported. Also present were members of the CIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency and the Advanced Research Projects Agency.
"FBI officials were briefed on the Russian's decade long research on a computerized acoustic device allegedly capable of implanting thoughts in a persons mind without that person being aware of the source of the thought." the article said. Dr. Smirnov declined to help, because much of the necessary hardware was in Russia. The American rights to the Russian technology have been bought by Psychotechnologies Corp. of Richmond,Virginia.
Once the civil trials began, the FBI and ATF had much more mundane matters to explain. Such as the abundance of evidence, including government witnesses who testified at the Brach Davidian trial in San Antonio, that agents in helicopters rained indiscriminate fire down on people inside Mount Carmel. The feds continue to deny this, yet a 28th February Army letter released under a Freedom of Information Act confirms that airborne gunfire was at least considered, before and after the raid. In an FBI request for the first of several Army helicopters, the FBI promised the Army that "if the aircraft are used in an assault role, U.S. Army markings will be obscured."
DESTROYED EVIDENCE:
There is the matter of the missing right half of Mount Carmel's front door, which in video footage clearly shows the numerous entry holes made by ATF bullets in the initial raid. There are other questions about evidence destroyed by the government, like the FBI's decision to bulldoze the Mount Carmel site before any independent arson investigators could verify the government's highly questionable findings.
Or why the FBI "caused the refrigeration to be cut off at the morgue in Fort Worth without notice to" Davidian relatives, Clark's suit alleged, "causing remains of deceased church members to disintegrate in order to destroy evidence of the cause of death."
As in the Randy Weaver trial, there also appears to be a significant amount of evidence that was tampered with by the ATF or FBI. Examples: The video that ATF claimed would conclusively prove who started the gunfight was mysteriously ruined; the 11 audio surveillance devices planted by the FBI inside Mount Carmel all miraculously malfunctioned at the same time, which happened to be about five minutes before the fire started: almost five minutes of tape from the FBI's FLIR video is unaccounted for, also in the time frame leading up to the fire. Some Davidians, such as Rita Riddle, say several church members, including her brother Jimmy, were gunned down behind the gymnasium during this time period, and their bodies bulldozed back into the building just prior to the fire.
Ironically, the only meaningful forum held to publicly air grievances and probe the profoundly disturbing implications of the Waco massacre was a coroner's inquest held in Manchester, England. Twenty three of the dead Davidians were British citizens.
Then, President Clinton had steadfastly ignored the call for a national commission to review the policies and practices of Federal law enforcement agencies, including the improper use of deadly force, the adoption of military tactics and use of military equipment and the direct involvement of military personnel. The concerted was all the more remarkable and Clinton's refusal all the more damning......because it originated from a broad based coalition of 10 liberal and conservative organizations championing political rights and individual liberties, from the ACLU and National Association f Criminal Defense lawyers, to the Independence Institute, Second Amendment Foundation and National Rifle Association..
All in all, a massive cover up, and these agency's, one hand washing the other, including the pitiful claim of child abuse Janet Reno, used to justify the final assault.
Look and see how deep the rabbit hole goes, next up is documented proof of military involvement...Names, places, dates and proof this raid was planned months in advance, stay tuned.
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Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm. | |
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| | | | | emptywigHuh? What?Premium
join:2002-08-05
Pasadena, TX | That film and book and both nonsense.
wig
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Sometimes a paradox is just a paradox | |
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| | | |  owenhomekeeper of the magic blue smokePremium
join:2002-07-13
Bentonville, AR | I agree with you and, respectfully, disagree.
I would think that the first time an officer, or pair of officers, went to arrest a possibly violent suspect, and were both killed, was the last time any officer they know went anywhere without the rest of the group "in force".
The reality of the world tells us every day that countless police officers fall to evil men. Who are we to say that they, charged with our protection, should do no more than simply lay down and die? That is not our place. That is no man's place. This world is real and so is the death that awaits us all. The only way we can even attempt to control that is to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. When 50 officers show up to bust a single home with only one suspect, they are prepared for the worst. If 5 men in the house pull out machine guns and let loose, at least they are prepared to deal with such a situation. And that, I guarantee, somewhere, HAS happened.
99.9999% of the time, however, it doesn't. So the rest of us see this insane military like _invasion_ against one man who's in bed, asleep, butt naked. But that .0001% of the time, that man's not asleep and he's armed and ready to play. If I were an officer I would not expect to ever be in such a situation, nor would any sane person. I would expect that my peers would be there with me ready for what may come. If he's asleep, great, we all go home and live another day. If he's not, at least we would be prepared for the worst case scenario.
Personally, I have a great dislike for officers that seem to make up the majority of officers today. They all seem to have god complexes and would just as soon beat you to death as look at you. They are never there when you need them and always there when you don't. However, I have had the opportunity to know a couple officers who were, in my opinion, some of the finest men ever to exist on this piss poor backwater planet. And those men, those men no less than DESERVE whatever support they can get and they DESERVE to be prepared. Come what may.
Ultimately, it all comes down to securing the situation. Getting the upper hand in the situation as fast as possible. That's something we ALL try to do every day of our lives. The only difference is that the vast majority of situations we are faced with don't involve men with guns trying to kill us. If we did face such things, as you can well imagine, we would all do the same thing. I would pity anyone who didn't.
I will agree that it seems that many of these gestapo tactics are not even slightly warranted. But the one time it is justifies almost every time it isn't. Certainly, those who give up their rights for security deserve neither. But if you paid attention to what I have written, that's not my argument. What happened to the family in this incident was a CRIME, no less. Those responsible for it should be punished to the full extent the law allows. My argument is simply that the men who face the worst this world has to offer, day after day, deserve to be prepared for any eventuality, regardless of what it may be. Those officers who abuse that right, thereby abusing the citizens they are charged to protect, should not only loose it, but suffer a fate far worse than that which befell their "suspect".
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kg•m²/s²=m(299,792,458 m/s)² | |
| | | | | |  Lil JonPremium
join:2006-06-26
Cincinnati, OH | Re: I didn't know said by owenhome:I agree with you and, respectfully, disagree. I would think that the first time an officer, or pair of officers, went to arrest a possibly violent suspect, and were both killed, was the last time any officer they know went anywhere without the rest of the group "in force". The reality of the world tells us every day that countless police officers fall to evil men. Who are we to say that they, charged with our protection, should do no more than simply lay down and die? That is not our place. That is no man's place. This world is real and so is the death that awaits us all. The only way we can even attempt to control that is to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. When 50 officers show up to bust a single home with only one suspect, they are prepared for the worst. If 5 men in the house pull out machine guns and let loose, at least they are prepared to deal with such a situation. And that, I guarantee, somewhere, HAS happened. 99.9999% of the time, however, it doesn't. So the rest of us see this insane military like _invasion_ against one man who's in bed, asleep, butt naked. But that .0001% of the time, that man's not asleep and he's armed and ready to play. If I were an officer I would not expect to ever be in such a situation, nor would any sane person. I would expect that my peers would be there with me ready for what may come. If he's asleep, great, we all go home and live another day. If he's not, at least we would be prepared for the worst case scenario. Personally, I have a great dislike for officers that seem to make up the majority of officers today. They all seem to have god complexes and would just as soon beat you to death as look at you. They are never there when you need them and always there when you don't. However, I have had the opportunity to know a couple officers who were, in my opinion, some of the finest men ever to exist on this piss poor backwater planet. And those men, those men no less than DESERVE whatever support they can get and they DESERVE to be prepared. Come what may. Ultimately, it all comes down to securing the situation. Getting the upper hand in the situation as fast as possible. That's something we ALL try to do every day of our lives. The only difference is that the vast majority of situations we are faced with don't involve men with guns trying to kill us. If we did face such things, as you can well imagine, we would all do the same thing. I would pity anyone who didn't. I will agree that it seems that many of these gestapo tactics are not even slightly warranted. But the one time it is justifies almost every time it isn't. Certainly, those who give up their rights for security deserve neither. But if you paid attention to what I have written, that's not my argument. What happened to the family in this incident was a CRIME, no less. Those responsible for it should be punished to the full extent the law allows. My argument is simply that the men who face the worst this world has to offer, day after day, deserve to be prepared for any eventuality, regardless of what it may be. Those officers who abuse that right, thereby abusing the citizens they are charged to protect, should not only loose it, but suffer a fate far worse than that which befell their "suspect". couldnt of said it better... | |
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| | | | FAQFixerPremium
join:2004-06-28
Powder Springs, GA
kudos:1
2 edits | Nevermind. Please etake me back. | |
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| | | | | said by 2kmaro:Don't get that picture stuck in your head.
One can go to the Internet Pedophile Registry of any city and see exactly what you are talking about.
Of which .......... I IMPLORE EVERY PARENT to do just this - it may strike the fear of your God to see how close to you and YOUR CHILD these people things live !!!
DV
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Bush is the Prez....Think Patriot Act II....This outspoken dissident....In jail I'll be soon. | |
| | | | |  dogmaXYZPremium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1 | Re: I didn't know said by DiscardedVet:said by 2kmaro:Don't get that picture stuck in your head. One can go to the Internet Pedophile Registry of any city and see exactly what you are talking about. These graphs showcase what you mean: | |
| | | | | | | said by DiscardedVet:One can go to the Internet Pedophile Registry of any city and see exactly what you are talking about. Of which .......... I IMPLORE EVERY PARENT to do just this - it may strike the fear of your God to see how close to you and YOUR CHILD these people things live !!! Don't be so sure of those registries. They include many, many people who you would not consider to be true pedophiles. People convicted of statutory rape (consensual sex with a minor... even if they were just two years apart), people in possession of non-sexual adolescent photos, pederasts, even people convicted of "inappropriate contact" such as hugging a child.
This country uses the word pedophile as a hot button topic. Government and law enforcement officials take the hard line to make the panicky public feel better, but in reality it's becoming a witch hunt. | |
| | | | | | ddaPremium
join:2003-12-29
Bolton, MA | Re: I didn't know Precisely. The phrase "question authority" implies a lot more than asking why the government did something; it includes things like verifying that these kinds of registries hold correct information. Given the percentage of mistakes in such things as credit reports and death-row convictions, I don't place much trust in politically and emotionally charged things like sex offender registries! | |
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| | | jmikey
join:2005-11-09
Springfield, MO | As to the guy saying he was gay, I am gay and I don't do kids and sure in the hell dont get into kiddy porn. That is a copout. Gay don't make you a pedophile, and it sure doesn't mean you like kiddy porn, I prefer George Eads over a kid any day. | |
| | | | | | | Re: I didn't know said by jmikey:Gay don't make you a pedophile
I believe the mentality of gay = pedo stems from church teachings. At least it was mine (Baptist) when I grew up in that environment. I was taught (and at the time, naturally being young, believed) that if a man or woman is gay, they are sexual deviants that will rape children.
Then I started thinking for myself.
DV
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Bush is the Prez....Think Patriot Act II....This outspoken dissident....In jail I'll be soon. | |
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| | | | | said by 2kmaro: even though he claimed to be gay, I guarantee he did not look gay. What the hell is wrong with you. How does one look gay? Oh they wave their hands around they must look gay. Seriously, how the hell did you say that? Looks gay. Get your head checked. | |
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| | | | they look just like everyone else. They can be the pastor of your church. The police officer that lives down the street or your mechanic. They can even be your husband or wife. | |
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See 9 replies to this post |
 Doctor OldsI Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:17 | Un Freaking Unbelievable and Unreasonable. I hope they can sue the pants off the LEOs and the ISP involved. The entire Team should be punished for the mistakes of their Leaders. Disbandment is a good start. | |
| cacoPremium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK | Suggestion to Karl ! Shaq and Child porn should never be used in a title. That is just scary. Thank god it wasn't Dikembe Mutombo. | |
| | |
| | Taste of things to come? I'm all for enforcement of laws. I'm all for enforcement of laws that prohibit children from being hurt. I'm not all for the abuse of power the law enforcement officers had in this case.
The LEOs could of seen that:
A. No prior criminal record (I assume, by the article)
B. Amount of porn "traded". I have a feeling their IP was traced back to one child porn file being traded off P2P for instance. It's doubtful that an incorrect IP address would lead to multiple instances of a huge trader of this stuff. Yes, all child porn is bad, however having one or two files should result in a visit by the FBI, not a SWAT team tearing down your door. Save that for the pieces of shit that harm children by actually making the stuff.
C. A deeper investigation would of been better before running in guns drawn. Obtain warrants and packet sniff their data at the ISP. Or, at least, put a trace on their emails or web sites visited. Also, look at their bank statements for signs of issues. I'm ok with data gathering as long as there is a cause for it due to suspicion.. I'm not ok with a blanket data gathering law that covers the entire US population.
The guy who green lighted this raid should be fired. I think it was more publicity for the police department vs doing the right thing. Now a guy's life is ruined because his neighbors think he is a pervert. He might as well move to a new town.
I say a taste of things to come because with everyone being on edge, I expect law enforcement to jump to the extreme at the very first sign of trouble, like this case, instead of calming down and taking a moment to step back and view the big picture. | |
| | | ONE word to the family LAWYER... | |
|  devrandomI got a pot, full of random stuff herePremium
join:2003-06-28 | So.. I just read all of that and there is just too much "WTF?" going on to believe it all.
My head is spinning. | |
| Reviews:
·Comcast
| no way that should be clause in contract not allowing to get in harms way. that is unfair to team.
the reason for swat, all that training they probably needed the practise, or election year and they were used to show we are tough on crime..
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(insert company name)we are not responsible for defective products or could care less about your product after we have your cash.. | |
| | | | Punitive Damages The officers involved could, at least theoretically, be sued for punitive damages.
So you have the local cops who make say 3000 - 4000 dollars a month, and...oh yeah...the big guy with an income of 31,000,000 a year or so.
Cha-ching! | |
| | | | Re: Punitive Damages 31k a year is a mall security guard not a cop.. | |
| | |  ff1324Everybody Goes HomePremium
join:2002-08-24
On Four Day | Re: Punitive Damages said by i1me2ao:31k a year is a mall security guard not a cop.. Ummm....he said $31M (that's why there's 6 zeroes after the 31)...probably meant Shaq. 
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The funny thing about firemen...night and day they're always firemen | |
| | | owenhomekeeper of the magic blue smokePremium
join:2002-07-13
Bentonville, AR | Cops here start in the upper 20's. Sad, sad pay to risk your life IMO. But, yeah, he said million and the "big guy", as has been said, would probably be Shaq.
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kg•m²/s²=m(299,792,458 m/s)² | |
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| |  Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA | Re: horrible said by morbo:Also, why are celebrities participating in research on the "crime" or the raid? Because he actually is in fact a police officer.
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Early to rise, early to bed;
Makes a man healthy but socially dead. | |
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| | Surprised it doesn't happen more often Like many people, I'm all for law enforcement doing their job to stop criminals and their criminal activity. However, in today's day and age, I'm surprised stories like this don't happen more often. The ISPs are just as much to blame as the government. With all of the IP addresses around and many that change its no wonder more people's rights aren't being violated.
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How many lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb? Three. One to climb the ladder, one to shake the ladder, and one to sue the ladder company. | |
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See 8 replies to this post | |
 frankenfeet934 is 10-8Premium
join:2001-10-14
Smiths Grove, KY | Shaq a cop? Maybe that's why he can't hit a free throw, he's too busy playing cops and robbers to practice them.
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ƒ ℜ λ η κ ε ℵ ƒ € ∃ † | |
| tkdslr
join:2004-04-24
Pompano Beach, FL Reviews:
·Speakeasy
| DHCP claims another victim.. They probably haven't realised it yet, but dynamically assigned broadband IP addresses aren't all that reliable(or properly logged).
The DHCP protocol can be be fooled by several types of attacks. MIM, fake ID, etc. This can be especially true when certain ISP's use well known PPP password settings.
Then there is routing redirects.. Arp spoofing... etc..
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| |  elveySpamassassin
join:2001-02-17
San Francisco, CA
 ·Virgin Mobile Br..
 ·Sipgate VOIP
| Re: DHCP claims another victim.. Given that it took weeks for SBC to obtain the logs to help me troubleshoot a DHCP issue, and that I recall that it clearly had incorrect timestamps, I can say with some authority that theyr'e thoroughly incompetent at providing IP to customer^H^H^H^H^H mappings to LEOs.
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SBC is the world's second-largest SpamHaus and leads an Organized Crime Syndicate. Also see TURN.org or UCAN. | |
|
 birdfeedrPremium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:5 | But it's to protect the children Up front: I would have no mercy for a perpetrator who hurt my granddaughter. Nor would I plead "not guilty" for what I did.
Nevertheless, there is something gone wrong here.
Commentary (copied in Providence Journal)
sorry for no link, they need a sign-in. See bold text below.
by William Saletan: The joy of cybersex
WASHINGTON
EIGHT YEARS AGO, when Bill Clinton was caught lying about his affair with a White House intern, Mark Foley voted to impeach him. "It's vile," said the congressman. "It's more sad than anything else, to see someone with such potential throw it all down the drain because of a sexual addiction."
As we say on the Internet: LOL. We now know that Clinton and Foley were on different teams, but not in the way Foley pretended. And the irony only begins there. The two men have played similar roles, not only in their reckless personal lives but in the cultural revolutions of their respective decades. Clinton introduced us to the ambiguities of sex. Foley is introducing us to the wilder ambiguities of cybersex.
In his 1998 deposition, Clinton was asked whether he had ever "had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky, as that term is defined in Deposition Exhibit 1." The definition referred to "contact" with the other person's private parts. Clinton said he hadn't. Seven months later, when he admitted that Lewinsky had given him more than pizza, Clinton argued that this didn't meet the definition because "if the deponent is the person who has oral sex performed on him," the contact was only "with the lips of another person."
That wasn't even Clinton's best line. During the deposition, his lawyer said that "there is absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form" between Clinton and Lewinsky. When Clinton was asked later whether that statement had been false, he opined, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
Two months after offering those rationalizations, Clinton signed the Protection of Children from Sexual Predators Act of 1998. The measure, co-sponsored by Foley, extended the prohibition on enticing minors to cover "sexual activity," not just a "sexual act." It also added special penalties for using a computer. "There has been an explosion in the use of the Internet in the United States, further placing our nation's children at risk of harm and exploitation at the hands of predators," the legislation warned.
But the Internet revolution turned out to be kinkier than the sexual revolution. The sexual revolution changed how people touched each other. The Internet revolution took sex beyond touch. A degenerate can reach out and mess up your kid without even setting foot in your state. Is that abuse? It depends on what the meaning of "abuse" is.
Computers didn't invent non-contact sex. That has been around since the telephone. Kenneth Starr's "Table of Contacts between Monica Lewinsky and the President," for instance, lists 17 incidents of phone sex and nine incidents of "in-person" sex. Most of the intern's lip contact was with a receiver, and not the kind you can depose. But phone sex is risky. Someone might hear you. If you're calling a minor, her parents might pick up the phone or eavesdrop.
That's where computers come in. Clinton's romp with Lewinsky during a phone call with lawmakers was "just sad," Foley told reporters at the time. "It's unbelievable that he could behave so carelessly in that setting." Foley appears to have taken more care. According to the message trail that has come out publicly, he doesn't seem to have had sex in person, or over the phone. He did it over the Internet. Boys chatting with Foley were interrupted by their mothers, but the chats were inaudible, so the moms never knew what was going on. "Hope she didn't see anything," Foley told one boy. "No," said the kid. "She is computer dumb." "Good. Haha," replied the congressman.
Every state outlaws using the Internet to solicit sex with minors. But if you postpone physical sex until your quarry is 18, you can skirt these laws. Until that day, the sex has to stay online. Like Clinton, Foley appears to have carved out a kind of sex that in his mind wasn't officially sex. For Clinton, it was oral; for Foley, it was online. He'd pick you out as a page. He'd befriend you by e-mail. He'd groom you with instant messages. He'd find out your birthday and when you would turn 18.
Some states pursue adults with underage sex in mind into cyberspace and outlaw dirty messages. Georgia, for instance, forbids any "Internet contact" with minors involving "explicit verbal descriptions or narrative accounts of sexually explicit nudity" or even of "sexual excitement." The recipient doesn't have to be a minor. He can be anyone "believed ... to be a child residing in this state." Someone could be charged under this law even if he never went to Georgia or wrote to anyone there. All you would have to do is meet him in a chat room, pose as an Atlanta teenager and wait for him to say something gross.
If a pervert won't act on his words, you can criminalize the words. If he won't utter them, you can prosecute him for writing them. If he won't come to your state, you can go get him. If he has no victim, you can invent one. This is no joke. In almost every state, laws specify that you can be convicted of an Internet sex offense against a child even if you contact no child and commit no physical crime. In fact, the most recently analyzed data, published by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, suggest that more people are arrested on suspicion of using the Internet to solicit what turn out to be cops posing as kids than for using it to initiate relationships with real kids. The unnatural has been surpassed by the artificial.
Cybersex is only getting weirder. Most Canadian college students surveyed by a dating Web site say they've already had sex via instant messages. By year's end, more than 100 million people will be playing online games. Fifteen million webcams are in use; hundreds can be viewed for a fee, and many are pornographic. You can even interact with a "virtual girlfriend" on your cellphone. It's a creepy world of imaginary meetings and deeds. The only thing creepier, perhaps, is to prosecute them like the real thing.
William Saletan covers science and technology for Slate, the online magazine. He wrote this for The Washington Post. | |
| eakint
join:2001-03-03
Lincoln University, PA | talk about not having the right place. reminds me of when I lived in PHX.
Bounty hunters go into the wrong house looking for a small time criminal, there's a family with 3 kids in the house, the couple there are like WTF is going on, woken from their sleep, and the bounty hunters mow them down!!!
link an inteview about the incident, not the actual news account, did search that hard for it...
»www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july···-12.html | |
| | | | Re: talk about not having the right place. I have to agree with the fact that a SWAT team for this case its a bit overreacting. However, maybe there are cases where more crazy things have occurred in the past, or there may be some possible information to this criminal that it is not released to the public. I personally think it is better to be safe than sorry. As long as they did not overreact on the scene, and most importantly no innocent casualties then its simply a mistake that can be fixed.
I would like to assume there may be some other information that caused them to send out a SWAT team. It is hard to believe that this type of crime need a raid team with automatic weapons.
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| | | ddaPremium
join:2003-12-29
Bolton, MA | Re: talk about not having the right place. said by jc70417:As long as they did not overreact on the scene, and most importantly no innocent casualties then its simply a mistake that can be fixed. I would consider terrorizing an innocent family for 5 hours to be "overreacting on the scene." I would think at the point the team leader realised that the couple had 3 children they didn't know about, they would have realised something was up. | |
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1 edit | What Shaq said to the family.... Family to Shaq: "You have investigated the wrong family!"
Shaq: "Can you dig it?????" "At least I brought a championship to Florida."
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The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary. | |
| Test99Premium
join:2003-04-24
San Jose, CA
kudos:1 | The Wrong Door Radley Balko has much more on what can happen when police break down the wrong door here.
If you have the time, start at the bottom and read up.
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50775@fwd.pulver.com | |
| | | Zero Tolerance! In today's atmosphere, I'd rather raid the homes of 10,000 innocent families with SWAT teams than let one child molester walk free. If that means everyone's home needs to be raided once a year, maybe that's what we need to start accepting. | |
| |  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | Re: Zero Tolerance!  | |
| | | | I would respond, but this is a blatant attempt to enrage this board. I mean, come on. Taylor has a lot more finesse than this. No mention of jail rape. No self indignation. I'll give you points for trying, but you need to refine the rough edges.  | |
| | Yetskii
join:2002-03-01
Hazel Park, MI | Oh yeah, how about if this raid happened in your house, with your family? Do you think it would be fair?
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| | wtf yeah this is a little operation called blue ridge thunder i dont know why or how shack got involved but this is a disgrace.virginia is turning into nothing but a police state.i dont like or support pediphiles but their has to be a better way of catching them other than using the taxpayers money to pay a grown man to sit at a computer and solicit sex over the internet.all this beating down a innocent mans door to catch a pediphile it could happen to anyone and i bet he or his family wont ever even see a apology.a well respected man in my town got caught by them recently and hes getting charged with everything the cops can think of he would of done but actually did nothing,didnt even show up at the supposed meeting place.how the hell can u charge someone with invisible crimes? | |
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horrible
