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story category RIAA Wants Only Their Experts in Trial
Judge disagrees...
(old news - 08:53AM Monday Oct 30 2006)
tags: legal
The RIAA has been fighting defendant efforts to have neutral third party experts examine their hard-drives, in order to help prove the broadband users were not downloading pirated material. Techdirt points out that a Judge has shot down the RIAA's request to bar independent experts in the case of SONY v. Arellanes.

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Forums » RIAA Wants Only Their Experts in Trial
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DevilDog3

join:2005-05-13
Albany, NY

What's next....

I guess next they're going to request that only they get to speak at the trial also. The defendant can't say anything.

What are they afraid of with having an independent third party check out the hard drives? Maybe that someone will actually prove they have no idea what they're doing?

phattieg

join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
·Verizon Wireless B..
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Re: What's next....

said by DevilDog3 See Profile :

I guess next they're going to request that only they get to speak at the trial also. The defendant can't say anything.

What are they afraid of with having an independent third party check out the hard drives? Maybe that someone will actually prove they have no idea what they're doing?
I think they need to consider services like X-Drive. I know better these days.
--
SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / PIMPNET Chatline / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1.

technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA
The Truth shall set the defendant free and prove what dumb idiots the RIAA investigators are.

Remember folks, use Truecrypt for everything!!!

Pirate515
Premium
join:2001-01-22
Brooklyn, NY

Re: What's next....

said by technick See Profile :

Remember folks, use TrueCrypt for everything!!!
Great idea, but when you get dragged to court and the examiner finds out that your hard drive is encrypted, you'll be asked to provide a key to access it, and if you refuse, you'll be charged with obstruction of justice for withholding evidence.
--
Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies...
A MESSAGE to the RIAA and the MPAA: You shouldn't wound what you can't kill...

karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
iraq
·Fairpoint Communic..

Re: What's next....

Not exactly true. If you use truecrypt, you can give them a fake key, which won't really decrypt the drive, but will mount the volume. The prosecutor will have no proof you didn't give the real key however.

Encryption is always your best friend. Learn it, Use it, because when the jack booted republican neo-con right wing christian conservatives decide that YOU can't have porn on your computer, it will be your ass you save by having encrypted your data.
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 10mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.

thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY


1 edit

Re: What's next....

said by karlmarx See Profile :

because when the jack booted republican neo-con right wing christian conservatives
Okay, that's enough sugar for one day...

ctceo
Premium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN
clubs:
You can use all the encryption tools in tho world. It only takes the right professional a few moments (sometimes days) to discover the proper key(s).

hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12

Re: What's next....

said by ctceo See Profile :

It only takes the right professional a few moments (sometimes days) to discover the proper key(s).
Nonsense. A few days after how many eons?
--
Where's Jesus?
Dear Jesus!

Pirate515
Premium
join:2001-01-22
Brooklyn, NY


4 edits
said by karlmarx See Profile :

Not exactly true. If you use TrueCrypt, you can give them a fake key, which won't really decrypt the drive, but will mount the volume. The prosecutor will have no proof you didn't give the real key, however.
So how exactly does it work? If you enter the wrong key, the drive just shows up empty? If that's the case, then anyone with some common sense would suspect foul play right away.

What I would like to see are a combination of keys that determine what you can and cannot view. For example, one master key to see everything on the drive, with option of specifying other keys, each one of them with capability of hiding certain types of files/folders. Even with that scenario if you get an examiner who knows how to use his/her brain, they can still catch you. For example, they are looking at a drive that according to manufacturer's specs is 200 GB. The visible data on that drive takes up 100 GB, and the OS reports that you have 50 GB available. What happened to the other 50 GB? Of course, it would take a person who pays attention to details to figure this out, but it's not impossible as you can see.

said by karlmarx See Profile :

Encryption is always your best friend. Learn it, Use it, because when the jack booted republican neo-con right wing christian conservatives decide that YOU can't have porn on your computer, it will be your ass you save by having encrypted your data.
Good point, but if you use the logic of these Republican neo-con right-wing Christian conservatives that you speak of, the sole fact that you are using encryption automatically makes you a criminal. In their view, honest, law-abiding and God-fearing citizens have nothing to hide and would freely submit to any kind of search without questioning the authorities, even if they've never done anything wrong. According to beliefs of these individuals, if you are hiding something and/or are questioning their policies and/or actions, then you must be up to no good and probably are doing something illegal.
--

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies...
A MESSAGE to the RIAA and the MPAA: You shouldn't wound what you can't kill...
Necronomikro

join:2005-09-01

Re: What's next....

said by Pirate515 See Profile :

said by karlmarx See Profile :

Not exactly true. If you use TrueCrypt, you can give them a fake key, which won't really decrypt the drive, but will mount the volume. The prosecutor will have no proof you didn't give the real key, however.
So how exactly does it work? If you enter the wrong key, the drive just shows up empty? If that's the case, then anyone with some common sense would suspect foul play right away.
A single "file" can have two volumes in it, and the second volume is entirely optional and undetectable, since it is attached at the end of the file, and goes backwards. When you create a volume, it fills the volume with random data, which is what the second volume would look like without the decrypt key.

dispatcher21

join:2004-01-22
united state
Please move to China, Cuba, N Korea, Iran, take a pick. You will be begging to come back.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC

said by karlmarx See Profile :

Encryption is always your best friend. Learn it, Use it, because when the jack booted republican neo-con right wing christian conservatives decide that YOU can't have porn on your computer, it will be your ass you save by having encrypted your data.
Also, when those jack-booted democrat neo-lib left wing atheist liberals decide that YOU can't have scripture depicting certain "protected activities" as immoral on your computer, as well.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Rogue Wolf
Ate The Last Of The Pumpkin Pie

join:2003-08-12
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·RoadRunner Cable

Re: What's next....

said by NormanS See Profile :

said by karlmarx See Profile :

Encryption is always your best friend. Learn it, Use it, because when the jack booted republican neo-con right wing christian conservatives decide that YOU can't have porn on your computer, it will be your ass you save by having encrypted your data.
Also, when those jack-booted democrat neo-lib left wing atheist liberals decide that YOU can't have scripture depicting certain "protected activities" as immoral on your computer, as well.
Well, it's good to know we all at least agree on the jack boots.
--
Let not the Demon in your thoughts.
Let not the Demon in your dreams.
Lest you should awake one morn,
And find the Demon within thee.

81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

said by Pirate515 See Profile :

said by technick See Profile :

Remember folks, use TrueCrypt for everything!!!
Great idea, but when you get dragged to court and the examiner finds out that your hard drive is encrypted, you'll be asked to provide a key to access it, and if you refuse, you'll be charged with obstruction of justice for withholding evidence.
You can't be forced to provide evidence against your self. So no it will not be obstruction of justice

dispatcher21

join:2004-01-22
united state

Re: What's next....

Giving the key to decrypt the drive is not considered giving evidence to incriminate yourself. The actual evidence is on the hard drive and the questions of ownership is what you can decline to answer on 5th amendment rights. Its like the whole ID thing. If you have a warrant and a cop asks you for ID, you can not refuse to give it just because you would be incriminating yourself, the Supreme court just ruled you have to provide ID. To me, the same logic for a decrypt key. The key is not the evidence to incriminate you, whats on the hard drive is.

81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

Re: What's next....

said by dispatcher21 See Profile :

Giving the key to decrypt the drive is not considered giving evidence to incriminate yourself. The actual evidence is on the hard drive and the questions of ownership is what you can decline to answer on 5th amendment rights. Its like the whole ID thing. If you have a warrant and a cop asks you for ID, you can not refuse to give it just because you would be incriminating yourself, the Supreme court just ruled you have to provide ID. To me, the same logic for a decrypt key. The key is not the evidence to incriminate you, whats on the hard drive is.
ID and providing key to my encryption file is totally different. By giving me a key to file encrypted on my computer=my computer and me giving cops key= incriminating my self

kaisa
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join:2002-08-20
Glen Ellyn, IL
clubs:

Re: What's next....

I dont think it works by association like that...

but then again, this is DSLR...and we are hardly experts on sticky legal topics such as this.

hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12

said by dispatcher21 See Profile :

Please move to China, Cuba, N Korea, Iran, take a pick.
Since you seem to dislike folks who value their liberty and privacy why not take your own advice?

said by dispatcher21 See Profile :

Giving the key to decrypt the drive is not considered giving evidence to incriminate yourself. The actual evidence is on the hard drive and the questions of ownership is what you can decline to answer on 5th amendment rights. Its like the whole ID thing. If you have a warrant and a cop asks you for ID, you can not refuse to give it just because you would be incriminating yourself, the Supreme court just ruled you have to provide ID. To me, the same logic for a decrypt key. The key is not the evidence to incriminate you, whats on the hard drive is.
In that case next time I get carded I'll just show my PGP keys.

Turning over any pass phrase could indeed be self incriminating if the pass phrase in question is a confession to a crime one has committed.
--
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NormanS
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Re: What's next....

said by hpguru See Profile :

Turning over any pass phrase could indeed be self incriminating if the pass phrase in question is a confession to a crime one has committed.
So could turning over the keys to your safe deposit box, or letting the cops into your house to search for evidence.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12


1 edit

Re: What's next....

said by NormanS See Profile :

said by hpguru See Profile :

Turning over any pass phrase could indeed be self incriminating if the pass phrase in question is a confession to a crime one has committed.
So could turning over the keys to your safe deposit box, or letting the cops into your house to search for evidence.
Not at all. No fifth ammendment rights are involved in a search of ones home but they may be if ones pass phrase is a confession to a crime they committed and the warrent describes the encrypted data to be seized.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,..."

Mind you I am no attourney but that is my understanding of our one of our most basic constitutional rights.
--
Where's Jesus?
Dear Jesus!

toadlife
Premium
join:2004-05-03
Lemoore, CA
·AT&T Yahoo

Re: What's next....

dispatcher21 above is correct. People have made the fifth amendment argument regarding the law, but I don't know if anyone has actually tried to challenge it in court.

Here is an interesting read regarding the issue. Google has tons more.

hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12

Re: What's next....

said by toadlife See Profile :

dispatcher21 above is correct. People have made the fifth amendment argument regarding the law, but I don't know if anyone has actually tried to challenge it in court.

I don't know if anyone has used the Fifth successfully (or at all) in such a defense either but the article you linked to engages only in speculation.
--
Where's Jesus?
Dear Jesus!
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC


1 edit
A pass phrase to an encrypted file is no more a compulsion of self incrimination that a key to a safe deposit box, or a file cabinet. Searching the contents of an HDD is analogous to searching the papers in desk drawers, file cabinets, and safe deposit boxes.

My interpretation of the fifth amendment to the U.S. Constitution is that you can't compel the person to utter self-incriminating testimony. Bits on disks are about the same as characters on paper, though; and properly covered under the fourth amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

Re: What's next....

giving key to encrypted file is much more incriminating then giving key to safe deposit box. Plus safe deposit box, file cabinet is much easier to open forcefully with out a key then it's to crack encryption key. By giving cops your encryption key you establish that you either the owner of the encryption data or at least have access to it

hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12

said by NormanS See Profile :

Bits on disks are about the same as characters on paper, though; and properly covered under the fourth amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Indeed they are but your passphrase is (or should be) stored in your gray matter which is not covered under the forth ammendment.
--
Where's Jesus?
Dear Jesus!

81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

Re: What's next....

said by hpguru See Profile :

said by NormanS See Profile :

Bits on disks are about the same as characters on paper, though; and properly covered under the fourth amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Indeed they are but your passphrase is (or should be) stored in your gray matter which is not covered under the forth ammendment.
You can't be forced to incriminate your self period. If cops come to search your house with a warrant you can't be ordered to open that locked safe. Cops have 2 choies crack the code or open it forcesfully. With encrypted HD cops got 2 choices 1)guess the key or crack it. So your passphrase is same thing as key to the safe which cops can't force you to give them. Mostlikely what will happen, is cops will put keyloger on your comp and get the key that way.

hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12

Re: What's next....

said by 81399672 See Profile :

said by hpguru See Profile :

Mostlikely what will happen, is cops will put keyloger on your comp and get the key that way.
That has been their method of choice in the high level cases involving crypto of which I am aware. If they can't brute force it out of your head, crack the crypto (in the case of weak crypto) or record your keystrokes then I think they pretty much run out of options. As a matter of fact they may not even be able to prove encryption has been used if one doesn't admit to it and they cannot find any encryption software or files they can prove are encrypted.
--
Where's Jesus?
Dear Jesus!

ForgotMyNick

@optonline.net

There was a case a little while back where someone had there hard drive seized by the police, when they discovered it was encrypted with PGP they got a court order for the keys/password to decrypt it and the owner refused. So the judge jailed him for contempt of court. Can't remember for how long and i never read a followup that told what the outcome was.
mlundin

join:2001-03-27
Lawrence, KS

Well, of course...

...They're going to fight the idea of a neutral third party (wouldn't you?). As long as the judge laughs at it, the system still works... sort of.

GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
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Avalon, NJ
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Pending appeal by the RIAA of course

Update: In the comments, lawyer Ray Beckerman, who pointed out this original decision, lets us know that the earlier case where the judge let the woman pick her own expert and bill the RIAA was later overturned so that the RIAA did get to bring in their own expert.
If the older case you're referring to is the Tanya Andersen case, it should be pointed out that the original April 2006 order (PDF) providing for examination by a neutral expert was superseded by a July order (PDF) giving the RIAA essentially what it wanted in this case.
As usual, it isn't over until the fat lady sings.
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dispatcher21

join:2004-01-22
united state

Re: Pending appeal by the RIAA of course

She can still bring her own expert in for her defense, she just has to pay for it.

phxmark
What Country Are We Living In?

join:2000-12-27
Glendale, AZ

said by GOLFnSUN See Profile :

Update: In the comments, lawyer Ray Beckerman, who pointed out this original decision, lets us know that the earlier case where the judge let the woman pick her own expert and bill the RIAA was later overturned so that the RIAA did get to bring in their own expert.
If the older case you're referring to is the Tanya Andersen case, it should be pointed out that the original April 2006 order (PDF) providing for examination by a neutral expert was superseded by a July order (PDF) giving the RIAA essentially what it wanted in this case.
As usual, it isn't over until the fat lady sings.
She is not allowed to sing anymore. The RIAA charged her for singing copyrighted songs.
--
High speed is dangerous. Too many MP3s, not enough time.

GOLFnSUN
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Re: Pending appeal by the RIAA of course

said by phxmark See Profile :

She is not allowed to sing anymore. The RIAA charged her for singing copyrighted songs.
LOL. Good one.

Yowzaaah
Ours Go To Eleven

join:2000-12-14
DamnFlat, OH
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Ummm, sorry to be a needling little bitch - but ASCAP would sue the fat lady, not the RIAA....of course the RIAA could always have put them up to it though.
--
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Jehu
Premium
join:2002-09-13
MA

Why is this news?

Prosecution make a ludicrous move, Judge says no.

I see this on Law and Order every day....

I guess we need daily bait for filesharing evangelists?
--
The hills are alive with the sound of jehu.

Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA

Yea, but......

you only bait for what you want. Everything else in the pond is scum and sea roaches.

NV
SinNombre

join:2004-09-16
Charlotte, NC
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Why is this news?

It's news in the sense that it's another case of large corporations trying to inflict their brand of justice and fairness into the legal system. Squash the little guy.
--
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ReVeLaTeD
Premium
join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA

said by Jehu See Profile :

I see this on Law and Order every day....
**Jack McCoy representing RIAA**

Jack: Now maybe he likes being "In The Club" with some thug who likes getting himself shot, but that doesn't give your client a free pass to commit theft! I'll consider an offer of Larceny 1, he pays $2,500 per song.

Defense: C'mon Jack, you can't be serious. We're talking about a song by 50 Cent here. Is he really worth that much?

Jack: So you admit to the crime, but don't want to pay the fine?

Defense: I heard no such admission.

Jack: Larceny 1, final offer, take it or leave it.

Defense: Pass. Oh, and for the record, maybe you should brush up on your 4th Amendment. My Motion to Suppress the hard drive scan. It's unconstitutional, Jack.

**McCoy shaking head**

DOStradamus
MVM
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That Kind of Attitude is Way Too Much Like the Spammers...

... who sue the operators of DNSBLs, et.al....

They know they have a weak case, are losing and know it. They try a long "Hail Mary" pass, which, in their arena, is to "cop an attitude", and make unreasonable demands and baseless claims, hoping that one might just "stick".

I was talking about the spammers there, you thought I was describing the RIAA, too? Hmm.. between what I've read about them, notably here and at eff.org, they've filed 1000's of lawsuits, and still have yet to have a jury rule in their favor...

The Raiders finally won a game this year. Perhaps they (RIAA) think that persistance and chutzpah will someday pay off...

Makes me feel guilty for buying 3 CDs this week, knowing that my money goes to fund this folly... Should have troed the "alternative"...

2kmaro
Think
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ColossalCave
clubs:

Amazing Equipment that WE! have

From the (non)responses provided by RIAA from this page:
»www.ilrweb.com/viewILRPDF.asp?fi···tffsresp

while talking about Kaaza they say:

"...the user is connected both to the provider's central computers and to other users of the service - typically millions of people at a time - ..."

I don't know what that lady was supposed to be running in her home, but I don't have enough ports on my poor machine to connect to millions of people at the same time!
--
Travel light. Never let yesterday get in the way of tomorrow.

rachelsfx

join:2004-09-27
Pensacola, FL

Re: Amazing Equipment that WE! have

Kazaa does allow you to connect with millions of users, see what they got, and download from multiple sources as I've seen it work.

guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix

I had the impression, after installing SP2 on Windows Xp. The connection limit was limited to 10, due to closing "raw sockets" or whatever the hell that is, GRC feared. IMO, it would be impossible to connect to hundreds, yet alone millions of people at the same time.

How many web pages can be brought up before your bandwidth chokes to death?
Example, streaming content one site, downloading an ISO of Linux from another, running Windows update, fire up your favorite on-line game. Just for shitz and giggles, add a second computer do the same also. I tend to think your connection fades to nothing... Yes/ No ?
--
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Asmodeus

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Re: Amazing Equipment that WE! have

that can changed using lvllords tcpip.sys script and remove the 10 connection limit on an xp sp2 machine.

guitarzan
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·epix

Re: Amazing Equipment that WE! have

said by Asmodeus See Profile :

that can changed using lvllords tcpip.sys script and remove the 10 connection limit on an xp sp2 machine.
That is true,IMO most people accused of file sharing.What percentage knows this connection limit.?

However the FUD 2K pointed out in his post, which is spouted by the RIAA. Proves the RIAA have no technical credibility, based upon the millions of connections bull crap.
--
Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm.
whiteyonenh

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said by guitarzan See Profile :

I had the impression, after installing SP2 on Windows Xp. The connection limit was limited to 10, due to closing "raw sockets" or whatever the hell that is, GRC feared. IMO, it would be impossible to connect to hundreds, yet alone millions of people at the same time.
While that may be true the 10 connection limit is only for HALF-OPEN connections, meaning once a socket is fully connected and transferring data it is no longer a part of that limit.

I routinely have several hundreds of connections going through my router, with no issue at all. As long as the upstream and downstream is not maxed, and the router has the proper amount of horsepower, it will work.

FYI, 2 machines running bittorrent.... Large amount of seeders and leechers. About 300-350 connections off the PC before it will start to lag. Have two computers running torrents in the house, browsing sometimes slows down noticably, but it does still work. This is without a modified tcpip.sys file or any other hack.

Nightfall
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Why not?

I think that would be the true test of innocence. If the RIAA takes you to civil court, why not be able to submit your computer as proof and have a neutral 3rd party do a scan on it?

I guess I don't see the harm in that for all the people claiming they are innocent.

Add a little clause in there that if the RIAA finds nothing on the scan, they have to drop all charges and pay the person they are suing $1000 for time wasted in court.
--
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See 12 replies to this post

KrK
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Not Fair

"Your Honor, since we went to all the trouble to actually sue these people and force them into Court, it's not fair that you allow them to actually present a defense and prevail against us!

How are we to extort, er, I mean "get justice" in the form of huge $$$ payments if we actually have to win our case?!?"
--
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kd6cae
P2p Shouldn't Be A Crime

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and if the RIAA finds files?

If the RIAA finds files after scanning, is it automatically assumed the files were illegal just because they were mp3 files, rather than some DRM piece of crap? That's the really sad part of all this. I believe that if any audio file not full of DRM crud is found, the powers that be will just assume that it's not DRM'd, so it must be illegal, even though the user could've easily legally ripped their own legally purchased music to their system as standard mp3. I wish the best for all these victims that have to suffer through this nonsense.

See 7 replies to this post

XoLiMiT

join:2001-10-04
Newark, NJ

no way

If the lady agrees to have the RIAA's so called expert inspect the drive she isn't very clever. What i would do would be request a silent polygraph test with the judge before the presentation of what the RIAA's expert is going to reveal.

Ask him/her questions like. Are you lying about the contents of the drive? Did the RIAA or any of its members pressure you? etc.

my 2 cents

Pake
If you can read this.... RUN

join:2001-02-22
Huntersville, NC

Re: no way

Puppets don't show up to well on polygraph test. Since the puppet doesn't know left from right, only what is relayed to him to say, you'd have to get the puppet master in there and do the test on him to get results.

XoLiMiT

join:2001-10-04
Newark, NJ

Re: no way

you are right about that

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:

We know who thest people are.

They are the people that love money and their holy book says it is OK to rip off heathens.

AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß

You guys have it all wrong

Bla bla bla....
All this criminal mumbo jumbo is BS. It's a civil case you dolts...the threashold for proof is much different in a civil case.

Just ask OJ.
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