 
Michieru
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | ! Verizon copper will now be sold at your local Home Depot as pipes for your water heater. If they plan to move the entire network to fiber they need all the money they can get. | |
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
| Re: ! Would Verizon really take the time and money to "pull" the copper out of the last mile?
It just doesn't seem that they would use the labor/money to do this.
Maybe it's not as time consuming as I think.
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I have an imaginary friend, and his name is God. | |
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David
Last man standing
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs: | Re: ! maybe when the time is right they will let the local natives dig it up... 
Ok I am NOT funny!! nor am I being serious.
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ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs: | Re: ! Actually the price of copper is very high right now, so they could recoup some money. | |
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ANOName
@verizon.net | when the Cu goes out, give the cusstomer a Tracfone | |
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Michieru
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Re: ! This is a perfect opportunity for a CLEC to start doing fiber in there own local area's where Verizon has not deployed yet to not let Verizon gobble up the entire fiber market in most places.
Unless they plan to piggie bank again. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: ! said by Michieru  :This is a perfect opportunity for a CLEC to start doing fiber in there own local area's where Verizon has not deployed yet to not let Verizon gobble up the entire fiber market in most places. Unless they plan to piggie bank again. The investment is huge, it takes tax dollars or a Verizon to do it. If Verizon did not get the same deal as CATV, exclusive use of the network, they would not have built it. | |
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Michieru
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL
·Speakeasy
| Re: ! Indeed it is and even for Verizon with there deployment it's costing them a pretty penny. But you must sacrifice in order to gain. Companies should simply look at alternatives if they cannot deploy fiber and by that I mean wireless technologies. Sure they don't have the capacity and speed but some technologies can surpass that of current DSL and can offer the customers the advantage of what a static network cannot offer you and that's flexibility.
Making a (P2P Point to Point) connection between businesses and a tower can provide speeds up to 100mbps and then some with decent speeds even during storms and rain.
If companies today expect to put little investment and gain a lot of profit that's really not how things work. One of the things a entrepreneur must have is to be able to take risks. We can argue between stupid risks and meaningful risks all day but the point is that you must take risks sometimes in order to gain.
If you plan to live in decade old technology and continue to do so eventually someone is going to deploy something in your area and you are going to be losing customers left and right.
MetroPCS is one example of how much coverage there gaining on a yearly basis as a "All talk one flat rate" cellular service. Because if you offer a superior service that "you know" is in high demand people are going to buy. This is the case with Fios and as there coverage grows so does the amount of customers and more cash flow means faster and faster deployment as the times go by.
Thing's don't start from 0 to 60 they start by pushing slowly and any gradual growth is significant even in the slighest bit which can continue help is when that wheel begins to come lighter and lighter for the individual(s) who are pushing it.
As that quote goes "It takes money to make money" but to be more accurate "It takes money to make lots of money" | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: ! said by Michieru :As that quote goes "It takes money to make money" but to be more accurate "It takes money to make lots of money" Most companies, ever very large ones, are pushing for net-neutrality and below wholesale rental of the network. That is much cheaper then building something. | |
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Michieru
zzz zzz zzz
Premium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL
·Speakeasy
| Re: ! But it's not really a solution and only a means to extract more money from content providers. People always push the crap all the way till the end until eventually it blows up in there face only to realize "doh this is not working". Companies are too naive as to think the content providers will stand for this but in essence in order for both to be successful they need each other. So the ISP's are simply crying wolf or they want to lock out other competitors from being able to access there networks when they are offering something similar to or exactly what they are saying one example is VOIP.
It will hurt both the content providers and the distributors of the content and the customers will be told to stfu as this is none of there concern which in reality is not but we paid for a service and we have every right to pull back our finances and big cry wolf would be a little wolf by the time that's done with it.
But people these days don't care and simply cry and complain and tell someone to fix the problem for them. Then eventually we got Peter pan and the 40 thieves in the executive and legislative branch who can care less what you have to say because they are smart enough to know everyone around them is stupid enough to believe what they have to say.
The sad thing is it's also leaking into the judicial branch and why oj simpson should be in the electrical chair right now, after all the bastard knows he did it. If it was not for the exclusionary rule he would of been put in prison.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusionary_rule
Nobody cares, everyone want's some fast quick solution like if there was a button on the internet that said "Fix Economy" or "Fix welfare" and expect to be done with it.
In my short 18 year's of lifespan nobody ever came to me saying "I will help you" they simply cried and complained that what I was saying is not worth it because of the hard labor or too much money and you are crazy or got the simple "good luck with that".
Then these are the same people who sit and complain all day at home about how bad things are going yet don't do jack shit about it. If you pissed off about people killing the enviroment go plant a freaking tree. If you worried about fuel emissions research and make something that could help lower emissions. Or invest money into someone small firm who is making a engine that you think could be a potential thing in the future. It's easy to cry and complain, it's harder to find a solution so to avoid the problem people always take the easy route and that easy route is not helping one damn bit. | |
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| | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| said by batterup :Copper must die, the CLEC's are collateral damage. The CLEC's aren't just collateral damage. The CLEC's are the target!!!
A big advantage to Verizon is that they can rip out the copper, and replace it with a network they don't have to share. With no copper, they can tell a CLEC: "you want to take that customer from me, go run you're own damn copper" (what the FCC calls 'facilities-based competition').
If a customer wants to "go back from FIOS", Verizon just turns off the internet service; their telephones are still powered by the ONT on the side of their house. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: ! said by PDXPLT :said by batterup :Copper must die, the CLEC's are collateral damage. The CLEC's aren't just collateral damage. The CLEC's are the target!!! Verizon is not placing FIOS to do away with CLEC's. | |
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| | | | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| Re: ! said by batterup :said by PDXPLT :said by batterup :Copper must die, the CLEC's are collateral damage. The CLEC's aren't just collateral damage. The CLEC's are the target!!! Verizon is not placing FIOS to do away with CLEC's. Let's put it this way: if CLEC's had the right to demand sharing Verizon's fiber, there is no way that Verizon would be deploying it. FIOS deployment was 100% contingent on regulatory assurances that Verizon would have complete control over it. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: ! said by PDXPLT :Let's put it this way: if CLEC's had the right to demand sharing Verizon's fiber, there is no way that Verizon would be deploying it. FIOS deployment was 100% contingent on regulatory assurances that Verizon would have complete control over it. Correct. | |
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plk
bo may sleep in loft
Premium
join:2002-04-20
Ogden, IA | With the price of copper....... They should be hauling it to the salvage yard. Copper has been sky high. | |
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Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT
clubs: | This is news again? How many times in a year can we do it? | |
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Bili den Axen
@verizon.net
| They have already stopped maintaining the copper Verizon plans to dump the copper network as soon as practical to switch to pure fiber. Also, when they yank the copper it makes it very hard, if not impossible for CLECs to offer FIOS customers any service as VZ does not have to share its FTTP network.
VZ's copper plant has been on a steady decline and will not be getting any better. Money is being taken out of the Copper Line Budget to help pay for FIOS deployments, this is happening throughout the VZ system. The sad part is that the customers in areas that will not see FIOS for 10+ years{if ever} are paying the price with chronic troubles, lenghty repair times, and delayed service orders. There is not enough money in the budget to give the field techs OT to take care of the trouble, pay for the tools they need, or even to repalce bad sections of cable. Bottom line is there are not enough boots on the ground anymore and the budgets are too small for proper maintainence.
The state of West Virginia is currrently looking into investigating Verizon for a $100 million dollar shrinking of the budget there and the percieved poor service that has ensued. Also, there are some rumblings in NY after the debacle that occurred in Buffalo...possible layoffs of techs right before the storm contributed to the length of repairs there. There are also several states where their PUC{or URC, PSC, and etc} are fining VZ on a monthly basis due to the poor service quality. Some people justify this decline in service with the implementation of the next gen network, but all of the customers deserve excellent service from Verizon--no matter where the live and no matter what type of plant they are on. | |
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| srobmw
join:2005-10-01
New Windsor, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: They have already stopped maintaining the copper There was no layoff in Buffalo. There was no layoff threatened. It was just one of VZ's periodic enhanced retirement packages. The articles were a total misrepresentation. They just took too long to mobilize techs from other parts of the state.
And no, I am not from VZ management.
And yes. No matter what part of the network a customer uses, he/she deserves quality service. | |
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jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA | doofus cu doesn't oxidize like that. | |
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Rob A
Jets 19 - Steelers 16
Premium
join:2005-01-17
Pompton Plains, NJ | Who would want it back anyway? Seriously, who would ever wanna go back to copper? | |
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| op
join:2005-07-16
Smyrna, DE
| Re: Who would want it back anyway? said by Rob A :Seriously, who would ever wanna go back to copper? Customer: "where will my copper go if it's being taken out?"
Tech: "The copper will be delivered to AT&T."
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| raybrett
join:2001-02-20
Saint Louis, MO | And just as seriously, I have little or no interest in FIOS. Particularly the part where I have to provide power at the subscriber end. There have been too many multiday power outages here and I like to have, at least, a working phone. | |
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join:2005-03-26
| Re: Who would want it back anyway? said by Lenagainster :I was fortunate at the time of my FiOS install that I had a landline with a CLEC. My copper was left alone, and now that I've shifted to VOIP, the copper is idle. But it's there if we sell and the buyer wants it. I wouldn't be surprised if VZ will only give the buyer service on FIOS even if the copper is still there. | |
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join:2005-03-26
| Re: Who would want it back anyway? said by Lenagainster :said by SD6 : I wouldn't be surprised if VZ will only give the buyer service on FIOS even if the copper is still there. Be surprised. The same law that forced Verizon to share their copper lines with a CLEC would do it again (unless the entire neighborhood was devoid of any copper to the poles, which is very unlikely, given the few who don't use a computer). No. Verizon is only required to share connected copper lines. When the seller cancels their POTS phone service and there is FIOS installed at the customer premises, VZ can legally disconnect the copper. If the buyer wants to have phone service on copper, Verizon has no obligation to reconnect the copper. | |
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Maggs
Premium
join:2002-11-29
Woodside, NY
clubs:
 ·RCN CABLE
| Reliability! Copper is time tested to carry telephone calls. It's been carrying them in excess of 100 years. Sometimes newer is not necessarily better. RCN went fiber, and I didn't have phone cable or internet for 8 days. They need to have hardline backups but they are too expensive to maintain. Verizon built the maintainence cost into the bill, i.e. the dial tone service charge of $6-7 pays for copper maintainence.
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It's a SYN, not to ACK your packets. | |
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| IAMHIVES
join:2000-12-16
Oakton, VA
| I still have copper with FIOS I still in theory have copper as well as Verizon FIOS (Internet and TV) . Since I didn't have telephone with Verizon when my FIOS was installed (naked FIOS internet install I think they called it)they couldn't remove it - I might have been using it for instance for different phone provider (I wasn't, using a 3rd party VOIP). Whether this means I can go back to Verizon POTS is a different matter - I doubt it, and why would I want to? | |
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operagost
join:1999-08-02
Phoenixville, PA | I hope not... ... because my apartment complex is installing FIOS and I think both Cavalier and I would be pissed if the phone and DSL suddenly went dead. | |
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tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| dozens of phone providers possible, VOIP STYLE! If Verizon wants to drop copper runs/network, fine.. but the price they should pay for that luxury/cost savings should be NOT FORCING customers to choose(OVERTAXED/SURCHARGED) Phone-FIOS.. they should have a choice between that and VOIP from ANY PROVIDER THE CUSTOMER CHOOSES, not just Verizon!
Verizon will have to learn to take the bad with the good. BTW, NO ONE from Veizon can convince me that they haven't stalled/stopped some deployments for various reasons--particularly in NY. IMHO, they are getting lazy and complacent, cause they can play the game that cable companies play: let some customers pay more as long as they are don't wake up and realize they're being ripped off when a comparable service is cheaper. I never understood why Verizon thinks a $5 discount is a credible competitive incentive to bundle (while they nicle and dime you with surcharges/per-cablebox rental/taxes/fees)? What about you?
Ya' know, they could slash the friggen advertising budget to ZERO and actually lower the prices... the prices would advertise themselves everywhere, particularly on time-warner cable networks like CNN! | |
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| DMS1
join:2005-04-06
Carrollton, TX
| Re: dozens of phone providers possible, VOIP STYLE! said by tmc8080 :If Verizon wants to drop copper runs/network, fine.. but the price they should pay for that luxury/cost savings should be NOT FORCING customers to choose(OVERTAXED/SURCHARGED) Phone-FIOS.. they should have a choice between that and VOIP from ANY PROVIDER THE CUSTOMER CHOOSES, not just Verizon! What do you mean? Currently you have the choice of Verizon POTS service or any third-party VOIP service you choose (including Verizon's own Voicewing if you so wish). What more choice could you want? | |
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| | tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| Re: dozens of phone providers possible, VOIP STYLE! You probably forgot that in the first days of FIOS deployment, Verizon was strong-arming people into taking BOTH POTS-FIOS AND FIOS INTERNET as a package deal (late 2003, 2004)... if you nixed the phone, you nixed the internet... eventually, they usually avoid that practice because of increasing public pressure (but not always).. or apply certain other conditions such as the use of a credit card, etc.
I'm sure if I wanted to switch phone carrier to VOIP, they wouldn't like it, but would probably let the line go.. because they know quite well that not only could I take the line to a 3rd party VOIP carrier, it could be their biggest competitor, Cablevision. I don't think Verizon is so concerned about Vonage or the other voip carriers..
Giving them an ultimatum when Optimum Online was 10 megabit and mostly capped was a joke, but now? Its just a matter of how much they wouldn't like a $2,000 ONT sitting on a [FORMER] customer's home without a subscriber to match. | |
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usbbtech
join:2004-03-25
Brooklyn, NY
| Aging plant will be phased out As with any deployment of any new OSP (Outside Plant), the existing one is phased out slowly or abandonded. I can't forsee Verizon completely letting the copper plant sit there for a possible CLEC to try and obtain. If your currently in a area that had very bad copper issues , it will be very unlikely you will have any access to the existing copper ever again. If your in a area that is partially residential and commercial , that copper will remain in place but most likely to be devoted clearly to the commercial business. Basically you will most likely never have the ability to revert your existing service back to copper. The newly installed ONT to your home has the ability to become an overpriced POTS device. Yes , this is not of course in Verizon's interest to have you on the new network and only want POTS service , but it can be done with a simple switch of your service requirements. In certain neigborhoods , you may see some of the F1 & F2 pairs now being marked and saved for "special circuits" and reserved emergency service. These can easily be identified by a nice sized silver - cylindrical sphere , what is that - Pairgain service. In some areas Verizon is picking the best F1 & F2's and keeping these select ones for Pairgain service. What's Pairgain , it's a form of xDSL , that allows the ability of 1 , 3 , 6 , 24 POTS , lines to be delivered over a single pair , and then split out via a special NID. Note: If your elderly , and anyone that must have a POTS line for "lifeline" service and can prove this , you may be the only person to have the ability to have a possible dual service, or your copper not removed persee. Just my two cents ... take care and have a Happy Thanksgiving ! | |
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| madrhino
join:2004-07-03
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| Re: Aging plant will be phased out said by usbbtech : Note: If your elderly , and anyone that must have a POTS line for "lifeline" service and can prove this , you may be the only person to have the ability to have a possible dual service, or your copper not removed persee. Wrong.I pursued this all the way to Ivan Seidenbergs (The Verizon CEO) office.They told me that the health of the elderly was not their concern.At least in the state of Maryland.HOWEVER it is a concern in the state of New York where Mr.Seidenberg lives.
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Get Verizon FIOS,The Anti-DIOS | |
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| | usbbtech
join:2004-03-25
Brooklyn, NY
| Re: Aging plant will be phased out DAMN - Sorry to hear that. I figured this would be the only scenario to "try" and have a "justifiable fight" , or reason therefore to keep the copper. Damn shame , I think if a good lawyer came across this it could be a good fight , on the terms of the phone company has always said POTS is a reliable service (permitting a Katrina event) you will always have a "lifeline" dial tone to 911 service. Now this was powered by the CO battery , so did they make me sign under agreement that I now waive that right by getting FiOS service , because now I'm responsible for the ONT battery / power etc ... too many loop holes , but glad you brought this to our attention though , so now we know that even in a case like this , your technically on your own. Once again sorry to hear that , just monitor your ONT battery , replace it on the reccommended schedule , and invest in a battery back ups , alpha power system etc ... take care | |
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Me42
@bridgeband.net
| Real reason to pull it out VZ is pulling out the copper because the FCC said they don't have to share new networks Only the old copper ones that are existing. If they remove the old lines no more CLEC's can touch that customer again unless they run there own lines. CLEC's Wont run new lines so VZ just got ownerships of the customer again, Just like the good old days pre-breakup | |
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See 6 replies to this post |
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lbedard
join:2000-11-04
Danvers, MA
| Recoup copper Only problem with recouping the copper cable once Fios is up and customers are cut over is that the fiber has been "overlashed" to the existing copper cables, very little new 10M or 6M strand was placed to support the new network. So if Verizon wants to take down the copper cable the fiber comes down with it!(at least in this area) | |
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| srobmw
join:2005-10-01
New Windsor, NY | Re: Recoup copper Here's a popular telco engineering term for you . It's called "abandoned in place". | |
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The Answer Guy
@Level3.net | That is completely false. You never lash fiber to copper. At least I never would. Fiber always goes on its own strand or with other fiber cables. Besides, a lot of the FTTP fiber cables are buried anyway. | |
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malvado
I pee on Bushes.
join:2003-09-13
00001 | Re: Recoup copper No, your statement is completely false. Fiber is lashed to fiber all over the place - on telco and catv plant. | |
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The Answer Guy
@Level3.net | Re: Recoup copper Ummm....that is exactly what I said. Fiber is put on its own strand or with other fiber cables. You never lash fiber cables to copper cable strands. | |
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iLive4Apple
Hybrid power
Premium
join:2006-07-13
Helena, AL
·AT&T Southeast
 ·ViaTalk
| What happened to a dialtone during an extended power failure I think phone should be delievered through copper still because now if they convert to fiber and the power is out for over 2 days, the people with copper still have dial tone, fiber people are out of luck unless they had a generator. 24HR batter backup does not sound good for home phone. | |
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malvado
I pee on Bushes.
join:2003-09-13
00001 | Re: What happened to a dialtone during an extended power failure the fios battery backup has an emergency power-up button that will resuscitate dialtone weeks later. | |
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iLive4Apple
Hybrid power
Premium
join:2006-07-13
Helena, AL | What do you mean? | |
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Gwailo
join:2000-07-16
Richardson, TX
clubs:
| Do you really get 24 hours with Verizon? I'm on ATT FTTP and the copper is gone (they did NOT pull it up, they just cut it at the grass where it went underground).
We ATT FTTP folks got a APC UPS on the inside of the garage and it plainly says it will keep the phone up and running for a "minimum of 8 hours." We all know some storms, etc., take the power out for days. So unless I hook the car battery up to the UPS, no landline after 8 hours till the power comes back up. So if it's 24 hours for Verizon, you got 3X what ATT is giving their FTTP folks. | |
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The Answer Guy
@Level3.net | If your worried about 24 hour backup, you can supply it. There are drawbacks to most next generation services. If you can't take the problems then don't order the service. Seems pretty simple to me. | |
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BPLSUCKS
join:2006-04-26
Grand Ledge, MI | Alternative power Use solar panels or wind power on your roof. For fiber I would. You only need enough to power it for phone...not internet (internet sucks more juice). | |
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maartena
Obama 2008
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
| As long as.... As long as they will supply telephony for the same price as copper, and the 67 year old lady that just bought your house can simply hook up her 25 year old corded wallmount phone without any problem..... why should we care whether its copper or fiber that brings the connection?
I doubt that they can charge the next house owner MORE for telephony because someone in the past decided he/she wanted FIOS.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -
Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father. | |
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FullThrottleDave
join:2004-03-03
Portland, OR
| Just had FIOS installed I just had FIOS installed last week (I'm in Oregon) and they did not remove the copper at all. I did not ask about it and neither did they. They simply disconnected it from the OLD voice box and connected the new FIOS voice to the old voice box. That way they could say that they didn't change anything to do with my phone wiring. Then they ran a new CAT5 cable to my router and plugged that in to the internet port.
The next day I sent a Porting request to Broadvoice to port my home phone number from Verizon to Broadvoice. I made sure my FIOS was paid by credit card instead of the phone bill. It happened within a week and now I have disconnected the FIOS voice (which is now dead) from my home wiring and plugged the Broadvoice adapter into the home network. All of my home phones are now internet phones and my internet/phone bill just dropped by 40 bucks total.... | |
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atowncrazy
join:2001-11-17
Carrollton, TX
| another slow day it seems like when ever there is a slow day we go back to verizon pulling copper when installing fiber. We want progress but dont want to pay the price there is no difference between what Verizon is doing and cable telephony with a battery back up hardly news yet again! | |
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Dyao
@att.net
| AP reporter seeking comments about VZ cutting copper Hi there,
I'd like to talk to folks who have had their copper cut by Verizon when they ordered FIOS.
Also, I'm looking for people who tried to dump FIOS and get DSL back.
Email me at dyao@ap.org (preferably with your phone number as well) or call me at 215-561-1133. Thank you!
Deborah Yao
Associated Press | |
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somebodeez
Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-24
here
·Comcast
| Re: AP reporter seeking comments about VZ cutting copper I absolutely love our Fios TV and internet services. I've had some issues w/their phone service on Fios that I wasn't happy with and tried to get them to put my phone back on copper.
No dice. They absolutely will not do it.
»CLECs Worry About FiOS 'Copper Retirement' | |
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Get Fios, Lose Copper
